Preparing for the days ahead part 1

[Screaming Eagle]

I completely realize that some folks here don't see the times we're going into as tribulation. That's okay but I'd like to give you these scriptures to consider.
More than that, I'd like to make them available to those that are of that mindset. The question is what we individually (and as heads of families) should consider as a matter of faith. Out of fear, Noah prepared an Ark. I'm not suggesting that anyone should respond out of human fear, but out of fear and trembling for His Living Word for these days that are fast coming upon us.
If you don't see this as appropriate, that's between you and the Lord. I have a sense of urgency to at least make them available and open the door for discussion.

http://www.danielstimeline.com/page5.htm
DO WE PREPARE FOR TRIBULATION, TRUE OR FALSE?



The world as we know it is changing daily before our very eyes. We are in the midst of terrorist attacks, national and global disasters, wars, and rumors of wars. We are the generation who will see, and some survive, the Great Tribulation. Yeshua and the prophets have warned us about all of this and described many horrors that are coming upon this earth with God’s wrath and His righteous judgment on it’s heels. Yeshua tells us to flee.

Mt 24:20-22

But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Yeshua tells us to flee, but to where? When God’s judgment comes on this earth, and it will surely come, are we to blindly flee here and there without any forethought at all of prior preparation? No.

Ps 91:1-3

He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust. Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence.

Waiting till it happens to act, then blindly fleeing here and there without any preparation is a perfect example of 'faith without works is dead.' That type of thinking is illustrated by a similar situation in the days of Noah, and more precisely those who were drowning in the Flood Judgment. They may have said, 'We don’t need to prepare. If rain does come, we have our own boat! It may not be as big as Noah’s but ours will float just the same.' Well, that might have worked for a little while until the boat filled up with rain water, or panic set in and neighbors forced their way in the boat and sank it, or until their one of their own neighbors killed them to take the boat for himself. Even the beasts of the field were used to keep people away from Noah’s boat.

How do we prepare for such events? Most haven’t prepared and worse, many will even say, 'We shouldn’t prepare at all because preparing shows a lack of faith.' Anyone who thinks that is spiritually crippled in his or her understanding. Maybe they haven’t read or don’t understand the parable of the ten virgins. Those caught unaware in the Great Tribulation will be like the five unwise-unprepared foolish virgins, devastated and wondering what happened and what to do. They will be in great need with nowhere to turn just like the foolish virgins in the parable and the drowning multitudes in Noah’s day. Did the five wise give of their oil to the five foolish? NO they didn’t and Yeshua (Jesus) called them wise.

Mt 25:1-2

Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.


Or others might say, 'The greatest need of preparation is spiritual and God will take care of all the physical.' Yes, we must be spiritually prepared to survive, but at the same time, we must also exercise our faith by a display of work. It is written, "show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." It was Noah only who showed his faith by building an ark, being prepared ahead of time. It was by Noah’s faith, and by his works, that Noah condemned the world, and God saved only Noah and his family. Think about it, who was taken and who was left? Noah was left and it was the wicked that were taken.

Heb 11:7

By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark [the works] to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.



Now we, being warned of God through the mouths of His holy prophets, must prepare also. If any man, without spiritual faith, thinks he can prepare his supply of food, water and such while seeking only to save himself, is a walking dead man. But the one who is prepared both spiritually and physically while seeking to save others will save his own family.

Ps 41:1-2

To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. Blessed is he that considereth the poor: the LORD will deliver him in time of trouble. The LORD will preserve him, and keep him alive; and he shall be blessed upon the earth: and thou wilt not deliver him unto the will of his enemies.


If you hear the spirit of God deep inside warning you to prepare, you should listen to that voice and listen to the watchman who is sounding the warning trumpet on your behalf.

Eze 33:3-5

If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people; Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head. He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul.

If you follow some one who tells you not to prepare or tells to stay in your place declaring peace or your safety, your blood will be required on that man’s head who has misled you, no matter if it was from a stranger, your best friend, the preacher on T. V., or whoever.

Jer14:13-14

Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, the prophets say unto them, Ye shall not see the sword, neither shall ye have famine; but I will give you assured peace in this place. Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.


Eze 33:8

When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.


There are many verses telling us to prepare before it is too late. Like the manna gathering, we are living in the sixth day (the 6th 1000 year set / a day is as 1000yr to the Lord).

Ex 16:5

And it shall come to pass, that on the sixth day they shall prepare that which they bring in; and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily.


The servant who knew and did nothing is beaten and thrown into outer darkness and there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Lu 12:47-48

And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.


The woman went to a place already prepared before the Great Tribulation began, to feed her there 1260 days.


Re 12:6

And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

:pray::eek:

[Screaming Eagle]

I had to cut that part off due to length. I'd like to add Luke 12:36ff to the list for consideration. Three groups of people are indicated there. Each has a clear destiny and rewards. The fascinating thing is that we have something of a choice about which group to belong to.

Of course, there are those who will say, 'It was God who prepared the place for the woman, so it doesn’t pertain to you and me doing any preparing.' This again is the remark of a person who doesn’t understand that God works through His creation. There would have been no need for Noah to build an ark. God could have caused them just hover in the air for a year instead! But that is NOT the way God works. Israel wouldn’t have needed to show faith and works to fight for the Promised Land, Abraham wouldn’t have needed to show faith and works of separating from his father’s land a becoming circumcised. And for that matter, Yeshua wouldn’t have been beaten and crucified.

If we are hungry and ask God for food, we show our faith that God will feed us by sewing crops (work), but it is God who gives the increase. If we don’t sew then there is nothing to reap. Some might say, 'What about the manna? Israel didn’t sew and God fed them.' Anyone using the manna as an excuse is a huge error. God said that He would cause it to rain bread not the feed them for lack of their works, but rather to prove them and to see if they would walk in His Law or no. In doing so he was proving Israel to follow His laws while giving them the Sabbath.

It's plain and simple, the need to be prepared is critical. Yeshua warns, 'Don’t go back into your house.' If we are not to go back into our homes even to gather belongings to flee, then it is obvious we should have a place already prepared.

Mt 24:15

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


We need to hear and obey the voice God sends.


Ex 23:20-21

Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.


Don’t stay in high-populated areas.

Isa 5:8-9

Woe unto them that join house to house, that lay field to field, till there be no place, that they may be placed alone in the midst of the earth! In mine ears said the LORD of hosts, Of a truth many houses shall be desolate, even great and fair, without inhabitant.


The foolish, and the non-believers will seduce away many.


Isa 5:11-14

Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them! And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of the LORD, neither consider the operation of his hands. Therefore my people are gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge: and their honourable men are famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst. Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.


There will be those who will speak of peace and safety and tell you, 'Stay where you are,' but the scripture is very clear we are not to remain where we were; we are to physically escape and flee, but to where?…… Where you have prepared…

1th 5:3

For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Lu 21: 34-36

And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.


How will we be counted worthy to escape? It is by our Faith and the outward display of our faith, which is our Works. Make no mistake about it; faith without the works is dead.

Eze 14: 21-22

For thus saith the Lord GOD; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast? Yet, behold, therein shall be left a remnant that shall be brought forth, both sons and daughters: behold, they shall come forth unto you, and ye shall see their way and their doings: and ye shall be comforted concerning the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, even concerning all that I have brought upon it.


Mt 24:13

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.


Re 3: 10-11

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.


Mt 10: 22-23

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.


In times like this the city areas will be dangerous, treacherous, and deadly. Things will become chaotic with riots, looting, and people killing other people as their automatic survival mode kicks in. This has been proven by the evil that has gone on during national disasters we have witnessed on our own soil in the recent years. People will stay in the cities, at first, till they run out of food, fuel, goods, or until martial law has control of the situation. We should already be in our prepared place as God has instructed because it will then be too late to flee. Those people will be taken captive just as the scriptures say. They will be herded into holding camps or until the powers that be decide what to do with them. The best method of population control is extermination.

We must be ready and prepared by the leading of God showing us the 'where,' the 'how,' and the 'when' to act. The 'where' is in the secret place; the 'how' is by faith and works; the 'when' is now, before it happens; the 'why' is obvious… He said so. He said, 'Obey my voice. '

Jer 11:7

For I earnestly protested unto your fathers in the day that I brought them up out of the land of Egypt, even unto this day, rising early and protesting, saying, Obey my voice.

Salvation cometh by faith, but our reward cometh according to our works; obeying His voice.

Mt 16:27

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.


Re 22: 11-12

He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Let us be counted worthy to escape and be numbered among those of who it is said:

Re 7: 13-14

And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


Re 14:12

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.


So, do we prepare? Let no man deceive you; according to the Scripture of Truth, yes we do.

Hosea 4:6 - My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge…

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Screaming Eagle,

I moved your second part into this thread since they go together.

It will be interesting to review the Scriptures you posted.

Richard

[Richard Amiel McGough]

In times like this the city areas will be dangerous, treacherous, and deadly. Things will become chaotic with riots, looting, and people killing other people as their automatic survival mode kicks in. This has been proven by the evil that has gone on during national disasters we have witnessed on our own soil in the recent years. People will stay in the cities, at first, till they run out of food, fuel, goods, or until martial law has control of the situation. We should already be in our prepared place as God has instructed because it will then be too late to flee. Those people will be taken captive just as the scriptures say. They will be herded into holding camps or until the powers that be decide what to do with them. The best method of population control is extermination.

We must be ready and prepared by the leading of God showing us the “where,” the “how,” and the “when” to act. The “where” is in the secret place; the “how” is by faith and works; the “when” is now, before it happens; the “why” is obvious… He said so. He said, “Obey my voice. ”

...

So, do we prepare? Let no man deceive you; according to the Scripture of Truth, yes we do.

Hosea 4:6 - My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge…
Hey there Paul,

That was a lot of words that told me very little!

It seems to me that the whole article is based on some pretty fundamental misunderstandings. First, the word "world" in the Olivet Discourse does not mean "the entire planet."

Second, the command in the Olivet Discourse says "let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains." Those words were addressed to the disciples who lived in Judaea in the first century." I don't live in Judaea, and it certainly is not the first century, so obviously those words don't apply to me or to any of us living in this modern age.

All the very best,

Richard

[HaShaliach]

Hey there Paul,

That was a lot of words that told me very little!

It seems to me that the whole article is based on some pretty fundamental misunderstandings. First, the word "world" in the Olivet Discourse does not mean "the entire planet."

Second, the command in the Olivet Discourse says "let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains." Those words were addressed to the disciples who lived in Judaea in the first century." I don't live in Judaea, and it certainly is not the first century, so obviously those words don't apply to me or to any of us living in this modern age.

All the very best,

Richard
Richard, I agree with you totally!! BUT.......

If God did judge the citys and civilations of the world. i.e., Babylon, Pompei, Sodom, and on and on......

Does he not do the same thing today? And in what way? Could the fact that Haiti lays in ruins be a judgment of God becuase of their centuries of wickdness?

Without getting boughed down in places or method of disaster, generally speaking,....

Is God still a God of judgement? or Can America continue to slide into wickdness and enjoy the blessings?

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Richard, I agree with you totally!! BUT.......

If God did judge the citys and civilations of the world. i.e., Babylon, Pompei, Sodom, and on and on......

Does he not do the same thing today? And in what way? Could the fact that Haiti lays in ruins be a judgment of God becuase of their centuries of wickdness?

Without getting boughed down in places or method of disaster, generally speaking,....

Is God still a God of judgement? or Can America continue to slide into wickdness and enjoy the blessings?
That's a very interesting question!

First, I would say that folks have a rather skewed view of history - they almost always think they are living in the "wickedest" of times. That's how Luther knew it was the "end times" back in the 16th century! And that's how Paul described things in the first century:
Philippians 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
Is America really worse than Sodom? Worse than the generation that killed Christ?

The second problem is this: How do we know that God judged nations? We know because the Bible tells us so! But how would we know if God were judging a nation today? We have neither Scripture nor prophets to tell us that a natural disaster like the earthquake in Haiti is a judgment from God. So even if God is judging nations today, how would we distinguish between natural disasters and the judgments?

Did not God promise to warn any nation before he judge it? If so, where and how is God giving them warning today? General statements in the Bible are not the same as a direct warning to a specific nation in danger of a specific judgment from God.

It seems to me that there is much to discuss before coming to any conclusion on this matter.

Richard

[Codger]

The Real End Times

From the creation of Adam - It took God a little over 4,000 years to bring about the cross. This was his crowning achievement of all time. The ancients longed and looked forward to that day - we look backward to it. I believe it was Friday April 15th 29AD - the year of the 29th Jubilee.

The next step in God’s great plan was to put the Word of God into the hands of the common man. This was necessary in order to prevent deception, establish stability, and to instruct his people in righteousness. This happened about 1750AD with the development of cheap mechanical printing technology. Of course all through time God was busy harvesting people for his kingdom. Jesus trained the first Christians who functioned very effectively. They were turning cities up side down where ever they went preaching Christ crucified and with demonstrations of power. The Church became apostate and God had to slowly bring it out of this period of the middle ages. He is presently rebuilding the contemporary Church to the effectiveness of the early Church.

This brings us up to about 1750AD. What has God been doing over the past 250+ years? He has been maturing and training his Church and according to the Prophets of our day will continue to do so until the day when he begins to reap the final harvest of all harvests. At that time part of the Church will be cleaned up enough (estimated at 20%) that they can be trusted with the power and gifts of the Lord. He loves mankind and is not willing that any should perish. It is interesting that the population of the world started to skyrocket about 1750AD as well. See Graph below.

Today, it is the common practice of most Christians, Muslims, and Jews to very easily throw the unbelievers, goyim, and infidels under the bus. Not God - he will exhaust every possibility and method to bring the lost to him. He will clean up the church under the coming persecution and hard times. This will escalate and continue during the great harvest of souls of the whole world. They are talking about a billion people coming into the kingdom. Actually, most Christians that I know have been going through pure hell for about 25 years now - this is God hardening and training his people and getting them ready for the coming persecution and days of trouble. We have seen in the past how the power of God corrupts people. They end up building an empire around themselves and humbly accept the worship of people in the process. This is why there has been a dearth of healings over the last 40 years.

This is God’s simple eschatology and all of those who think wrongly that God is about to pull all of the workmen (Christians) out of the field (secret rapture) and let the crops go to rot during the final harvest are greatly mistaken. We're going all the way through. The glorious power ministry is coming back to the church some say in the year 2012. When the days of trouble set in - about 80 percent of Christians today will simply fade into the woodwork. A lot of them will condemn the new movment as deception - it always happens.

Persecution always causes a falling away. God has said that he will no longer tolerate the unsaved people, those who do not obey him, those who live in sin, and those who cause endless division and strife, to be a part of his Church. He is going to send them away. All through history Christians have believed that Jesus will come and rescue them when things get really bad enough. This has never happened in all of history. This is not an eschatology of victory. No one is going anywhere until the work is done and the harvest is safely in the barns.

http://martinrain.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/world-population.jpg

[HaShaliach]

That's a very interesting question!

First, I would say that folks have a rather skewed view of history - they almost always think they are living in the "wickedest" of times. That's how Luther knew it was the "end times" back in the 16th century! And that's how Paul described things in the first century:
Philippians 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
Is America really worse than Sodom? Worse than the generation that killed Christ?

The second problem is this: How do we know that God judged nations? We know because the Bible tells us so! But how would we know if God were judging a nation today? We have neither Scripture nor prophets to tell us that a natural disaster like the earthquake in Haiti is a judgment from God. So even if God is judging nations today, how would we distinguish between natural disasters and the judgments?

Did not God promise to warn any nation before he judge it? If so, where and how is God giving them warning today? General statements in the Bible are not the same as a direct warning to a specific nation in danger of a specific judgment from God.

It seems to me that there is much to discuss before coming to any conclusion on this matter.

Richard

You make a couple of very interesting points Richard.

I mention Sodom, not to say that America is worse than Sodom, but only to give example of a city-state that was judged by God. I think that Sodom was far worse than USA. And walked on the flashpoint of judegment of God for many years before finally sealing their doom.

I guess my question is really....How can America expect to escape a similar fate of judgement if it continues on its present course?

Clearly, we are not the most wicked nation on the earth, and not at our most wicked state in history. As I understand our history, much of America was in darkness, a literal drunken stupor, and that we were rescued by revivalists such as Billy Sunday who preached a return to righetousness.

Are there any such voices today calling for righteous and holy clean living? I have heard almost no televangelists saying anything close to that. I hope there are local pastors still trying to teach the basic principals of Christianity lifestyle: modest dress, not drinking to excess, sexual cleaness, love, not cheating others, honestly, and such like....but I know of few in my city of Charlotte.

Homosexuals can legally be married in how many states now?

I see the lives of people, and how they lived when I was growing up, their prayer, dedication, love for family and kindness to strangers and brothers and sisters in the church, and compared to today, we are far short.

I am an economist by education, actully earned a living in the mortgage business, but I studied the economy every day for at least an hour. I've got to tell you I got so tired of reading stats that said something like, "worst....since the great depression" or "worst....ever since we have records...." This economy in America ran into a downward spirial and is still spinning out of control.

I think judgment on America is our financial industry. And anyone can clearly make the case we are in the worst economic crisis ever.
A recent study, cited on NPR this week, predicts that there could be over a TRILLION dollars in defaults on commercial mortgages, we all knew that commercial would follow after the home market. It is not over!!! Even in the home market the majority of the worst of the loans made will first adjust in 2011.

I do believe in the present day ministry of the prophet. And that they give warning and exhortation to avoid judgement. However, I think they are very few in number and people do not want to hear. They operate in obscurity. And the others have abandoned their posts! The judgement that God put on Israel in Amos 9:1-2 was to "smite" the "head" of the columns in the house of God---the head and supporting pillars. Perhaps we live in a time when our own leaders, political and religious, have been "smitten" and are not holding the household of faith. One subtle meaning of the "head" or chapiter, is to be "encircled." By losing strong leadership we have lost our circle of protection.

[Screaming Eagle]

If you cannot see what is happening in America as judgment, something is terribly wrong. Have you listened to one word of the mouths of prophets? Do you KNOW any prophets? I can guarantee you some of them are seeing clearly if you're willing to listen.

Is God separate from the earthquake in Haiti? or was that a 'natural' occurrence that had nothing to do with God? Do you think He is not Almighty and sees everything? More than that, He hears every word from our mouths.

[Rose]

If you cannot see what is happening in America as judgment, something is terribly wrong. Have you listened to one word of the mouths of prophets? Do you KNOW any prophets? I can guarantee you some of them are seeing clearly if you're willing to listen.

Is God separate from the earthquake in Haiti? or was that a 'natural' occurrence that had nothing to do with God? Do you think He is not Almighty and sees everything? More than that, He hears every word from our mouths.

Hi Screaming Eagle,

What is your criteria for a person to be called a prophet of God? I know what it was in Old Testament times....and that was the accuracy of ones prophecy.

To tell you the truth, I cannot think of one well known figure who calls them-self a prophet that has come anywhere close to being accurate even a fraction of the time. What is the standard that we are to judge these self proclaimed prophets by?

Rose

[Screaming Eagle]

I'm taking it that you don't believe there are prophets of God any longer? What about healing miracles? Does God still speak through humans? Forget about those that 'call themselves' prophets on TV. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the principle of people that relay what God has told them about the times we're in and what is about to unfold. You can choose to ignore the simple truth of God still speaking through men and women if you like. And there's a price to pay for it just as there always has been. I'd suggest asking Him to lead you to the prophets that He has ordained.

His judgment is unfolding in this nation and will begin in His house just as He said. It's being done slowly and with mercy just as it was with the Israelites. The pattern in history is that their exile from the land happened in 3 waves over a period of time (both for Ephraim and for Judah). It's almost like He was saying 'can you hear Me now'? When they didn't, more hard times followed.

[Rose]

I'm taking it that you don't believe there are prophets of God any longer? What about healing miracles? Does God still speak through humans? Forget about those that 'call themselves' prophets on TV. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the principle of people that relay what God has told them about the times we're in and what is about to unfold. You can choose to ignore the simple truth of God still speaking through men and women if you like. And there's a price to pay for it just as there always has been. I'd suggest asking Him to lead you to the prophets that He has ordained.

Hi Screaming Eagle,

It's not that I don't believe there could be prophets in this day and age (God can do anything), it's just that for every 10 people that call themselves prophets of God, I hear 10 different accounts....now that just ain't right! Who's to say that voice in your head is God speaking and not just your own thoughts....the only way to know is if those "prophecies" come to pass. The world is full of books that interpret the Bible, each one saying something different....who's right?


His judgment is unfolding in this nation and will begin in His house just as He said. It's being done slowly and with mercy just as it was with the Israelites. The pattern in history is that their exile from the land happened in 3 waves over a period of time (both for Ephraim and for Judah). It's almost like He was saying 'can you hear Me now'? When they didn't, more hard times followed.

No, I don't think God's judgment is going to come down on this nation. The judgment that is spoken of in the Bible was specifically addressed to the nation of Israel, and when they filled up the measure of their fathers sins judgment came down on them in AD70 (manifest in the destruction of their Temple and city) just like Jesus prophesied it would!

There is nothing in the Bible about any judgment on this country or any other country now. The Bible gives us a complete account of God's plan for mankind - that plan has been accomplished in Jesus - the truths that the Bible contains applies to all people of all times!


God Bless,

Rose

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I guess my question is really....How can America expect to escape a similar fate of judgement if it continues on its present course?

Clearly, we are not the most wicked nation on the earth, and not at our most wicked state in history. As I understand our history, much of America was in darkness, a literal drunken stupor, and that we were rescued by revivalists such as Billy Sunday who preached a return to righetousness.

This exemplifies what I meant when I said that folks tend to have a very skewed view of history (I'm not speaking of you, just in general). They quickly forget the past and think that they are living in the "worst of times." I am astounded to see the almost universal belief by modern Christians that America is getting worse all the time. Do you really think this country was founded on God's Righteousness? Have you forgotten the millions of lives tortured, maimed, and destroyed by the perverse evil of slavery??? And what about the obliteration of the native population? Where was the Spirit of Christ in that?

Whatever flaws we see in modern America, they are nothing in the eyes of God relative to the evils we inflicted on a whole races of people for hundreds of years. If God were going to "judge America" I think he would have done it back then when we had an instituted evil in the foundation of our nation.



Homosexuals can legally be married in how many states now?

This is a secular legal issue. Personally, I think the government should not "marry" anyone. That's a religious ritual. Let the churches marry folks. The government has no role but to help establish and enforce legal relationships between people for the public good. Thus, all the "marriages" established and enforced by the government should be converted to civil unions. If folks want to get married in the eyes of God, they can go to church. The civil unions then allow folks to have all the legal rights that we normally associate with marriage (inheritance, medical, etc.) that any two people would need and expect if living in a life partnership. This has absolutely nothing to do with sexuality. For example, this kind of legal relationship would apply to two old maids living together for their whole lives.



I see the lives of people, and how they lived when I was growing up, their prayer, dedication, love for family and kindness to strangers and brothers and sisters in the church, and compared to today, we are far short.

Yeah, I was talking to my sister the other day (she has absolutely no conception of God or spirit) and she mentioned that the best Christians in the world are the Mormons. They are so kind, and clean, and careful never to drop a crass word. So very good.

So here we have a cult that certainly does not have the "Spirit of Christ" being seen by the world as the best example of the "Spirit of Christ."



I am an economist by education, actully earned a living in the mortgage business, but I studied the economy every day for at least an hour. I've got to tell you I got so tired of reading stats that said something like, "worst....since the great depression" or "worst....ever since we have records...." This economy in America ran into a downward spirial and is still spinning out of control.

I think judgment on America is our financial industry. And anyone can clearly make the case we are in the worst economic crisis ever.
A recent study, cited on NPR this week, predicts that there could be over a TRILLION dollars in defaults on commercial mortgages, we all knew that commercial would follow after the home market. It is not over!!! Even in the home market the majority of the worst of the loans made will first adjust in 2011.

In this case, I am speaking to you about a skewed view of history. No matter how bad the financial sectors, the current standard of living is still a thousand times better than during the great depression when there were massive camps filled with starving children.

You see the loss of our outrageously excessive wealth - our fat diets, materialistic lifestyle, and our opportunity for endless meaningless leisure entertainment - as a "sign" of God's judgment. If anything, it is the opposite. God is forcing us back into reality where there is a connection between what we do and what we get. We've been living high on the hog for many decades. The loss of this excessive carnal wealth might be more of a blessing that a curse (spiritually speaking). Look to the faith of the poor in Africa or China to see what I mean. They usually pray for us because America is lost in materialism!



I do believe in the present day ministry of the prophet. And that they give warning and exhortation to avoid judgement. However, I think they are very few in number and people do not want to hear. They operate in obscurity.

Can you name two or three, and show me why I should believe they are really "prophets speaking for God?"

This is a very interesting topic. Thanks!

Richard

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I'm taking it that you don't believe there are prophets of God any longer? What about healing miracles? Does God still speak through humans? Forget about those that 'call themselves' prophets on TV. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the principle of people that relay what God has told them about the times we're in and what is about to unfold. You can choose to ignore the simple truth of God still speaking through men and women if you like. And there's a price to pay for it just as there always has been. I'd suggest asking Him to lead you to the prophets that He has ordained.

I see nothing special about the "times we are in" except perhaps that our materialistic standard of living is higher than it has ever been in the history of the world.

So where do you get the idea that God is warning us about "the times we are in?" How do our current times differ than the times 30 years ago when "prophets" were proclaiming doomsday? All those "prophets" were wrong! That means they were not "prophets" at all. They were arrogant, self-exalting deceivers who misled God's people!



His judgment is unfolding in this nation and will begin in His house just as He said. It's being done slowly and with mercy just as it was with the Israelites. The pattern in history is that their exile from the land happened in 3 waves over a period of time (both for Ephraim and for Judah). It's almost like He was saying 'can you hear Me now'? When they didn't, more hard times followed.
It would be very helpful if you could state clearly and explicitly exactly what you think is "unfolding."

[HaShaliach]

Can you name two or three, and show me why I should believe they are really "prophets speaking for God?"

This is a very interesting topic. Thanks!

Richard


Richard your point about skewed view of history is a very valid one, I acknowledge that wholly. Several facts could be sited to show that America is actually better than at times in our history, such as the Native American atrocities what were committed. That being agreed upon......

Can we look at America as a whole and gage, "is it getting better or worse."

There is movement towards secularism in our society that is gaining ground; we are moving away from being a "christian nation" (This president said we are no longer a Christian Nation.) What will be the affect of Pluarlism, and Moral Relativism being taught in our schools, and being passed by our lawmakers? (In my children's school this year, there were no Christmas trees allowed, but the Monorah and the [other holiday that is primarily for blacks, I cannot think of the name now], were on display in the classes and the hallways.) In 25-50 years will America mirror Great Brition of today, where there is almost no church attendance; or France, the missionary grave-yard, where the people are examplified as being cold hearted. New Zealand is said to have almost no church builidings because so few attend.

I read where 75% of Evangelical childern lose their faith by the time they gradute HS. That is not counting the other kids. What % of kids are coming out of HS with a biblical faith in tact?

That has to be alarming to any caring parent.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Richard your point about skewed view of history is a very valid one, I acknowledge that wholly. Several facts could be sited to show that America is actually better than at times in our history, such as the Native American atrocities what were committed. That being agreed upon......

Can we look at America as a whole and gage, "is it getting better or worse."

There is movement towards secularism in our society that is gaining ground; we are moving away from being a "christian nation" (This president said we are no longer a Christian Nation.) What will be the affect of Pluarlism, and Moral Relativism being taught in our schools, and being passed by our lawmakers? (In my children's school this year, there were no Christmas trees allowed, but the Monorah and the [other holiday that is primarily for blacks, I cannot think of the name now], were on display in the classes and the hallways.) In 25-50 years will America mirror Great Brition of today, where there is almost no church attendance; or France, the missionary grave-yard, where the people are examplified as being cold hearted. New Zealand is said to have almost no church builidings because so few attend.

I'm glad we agree about the problem of a skewed view of history.

And I very much understand your concern about the "direction of America" - especially the junk being taught to our children in public schools. It is highly polemical politically partisan social engineering crap.

Furthermore, I agree that our country is moving ever more in the direction of the post-Christian European nations.

I acknowledge all these problems.

But is there any reason to think that this is a "sign of the times?" Is there any reason to think that the world was better when it was run by folks who gave lip-service to the doctrines of Christ when in fact they were merely using religious language to manipulate the people?

I think it is a big step forward to have the apparently "Christian" political system exposed for what it really is - a secular power.

Remember - the first century Christians would never have looked to Rome hoping to see Christian leadership! Our kingdom is not of this world. Politics simply has nothing to do with Christianity. This does not mean that Christians should not attempt to influence politics - that is something I think we must do in our effort to serve God. What it means is that we must never hope to see Christianity empowered by the state, unless, of course, you want to return to the absolutely corrupt Medieval Catholic Holy Roman Empire that killed folks who adhered to the faith in accordance with their conscience!

So again, we see the error a skewed view of history. We have forgotten the horror that rules over us when the State becomes the Religious Authority.



I read where 75% of Evangelical childern lose their faith by the time they gradute HS. That is not counting the other kids. What % of kids are coming out of HS with a biblical faith in tact?

That has to be alarming to any caring parent.

And why do they lose faith? It seems the answer is clear. They have been taught things that are simply unbelievable. Evangelical Christianity has become utterly anti-intellectual. The faith has been turned into an absurd bed-time story that no thinking adult can accept. Futurist literalism has destroyed the deep symbolic meanings of Scripture that would otherwise touch the soul and has broken the ultimate historical proof of Scripture revealed in the coming of Christ and the subsequent destruction of the Temple. Cheap throw-away apologetics twist words to justify preconceived dogmas. Folks are forced to divide between Reality and Religion. They claim to "believe" things on Sunday that they don't even understand and then live by what they really believe and understand the rest of the week.

In general, Christianity has devolved into a cheap side-show best exemplified by the mindless gaudy blather of TBN. It is no wonder that modern society rejects such garbage.

Richard

[Screaming Eagle]

Richard,
What is clearly unfolding for example is the 'forced choice' we had in the last presidential election. It was either 'bad' or 'worse'. Unfortunately, a majority of people chose 'worse'. It was almost as if the Lord was saying 'it's going down; do you want it quickly or slowly'.
Another sign (among many) is the simple fact that our 'debt' is too much for even our grandchildren to pay. With a leader (whose loyalty can legitimately be questioned) that has no sense of history (regarding islam in particular) almost completely destroying the economy (which is probably on it's last leg) how could it be anything else but His judgment and fair warning to all of us.
Yet, His intent is right and just and will serve His purposes. As the economy gets worse, people will come to the end of themselves and *some* will seek Him as their only hope. Also, I fully believe that the finishing of the economic downward spiral will end up with Jews migrating back to Israel in what scripture refers to time and again as a 'second exodus'. And I think it will be a 'push-pull' process. The fishers come first then the hunters. It will be a lack of reason for them to stay here (economic conditions) combined with overt peril from the gubmint as well as islamic terrorism (of one sort or another) that makes it complete.
If the pattern demonstrated with the exile of the two houses of Israel plays out (as I think is likely) it will come in 'waves' that are successively harsh. It's abundantly clear to me that the more this country twists the arm of Israel to give up land and divide Jerusalem, the worse things get here. It's as if He's saying 'okay, you want to divide? so shall it be to you'.
I haven't heard anyone comment on the many scriptures I posted above except that one that was obviously addressed to a different time.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Richard,
What is clearly unfolding for example is the 'forced choice' we had in the last presidential election. It was either 'bad' or 'worse'. Unfortunately, a majority of people chose 'worse'. It was almost as if the Lord was saying 'it's going down; do you want it quickly or slowly'.

Hey there Paul,

The world has had bad leaders forever. Remember Hitler? People thought he was the antichrist.

I see no reason whatsoever to think that the last election was a sign of anything, except the perennial problem of finding good leaders.

Can you give me any reason to think that the Lord was "saying" something via the last election? How is it different than all the politics of the world that have been going on forever?



Another sign (among many) is the simple fact that our 'debt' is too much for even our grandchildren to pay. With a leader (whose loyalty can legitimately be questioned) that has no sense of history (regarding islam in particular) almost completely destroying the economy (which is probably on it's last leg) how could it be anything else but His judgment and fair warning to all of us.

The economy is always changing. What does that have to do with any "signs?"

This mode of finding signs has been used by every generation from the beginning of time, and it has always been wrong.



Yet, His intent is right and just and will serve His purposes. As the economy gets worse, people will come to the end of themselves and *some* will seek Him as their only hope. Also, I fully believe that the finishing of the economic downward spiral will end up with Jews migrating back to Israel in what scripture refers to time and again as a 'second exodus'. And I think it will be a 'push-pull' process. The fishers come first then the hunters. It will be a lack of reason for them to stay here (economic conditions) combined with overt peril from the gubmint as well as islamic terrorism (of one sort or another) that makes it complete.
If the pattern demonstrated with the exile of the two houses of Israel plays out (as I think is likely) it will come in 'waves' that are successively harsh. It's abundantly clear to me that the more this country twists the arm of Israel to give up land and divide Jerusalem, the worse things get here. It's as if He's saying 'okay, you want to divide? so shall it be to you'.
I haven't heard anyone comment on the many scriptures I posted above except that one that was obviously addressed to a different time.
I don't see how the modern state of Israel could be a sign of anything. It is not the Israel of the Bible.

We really need to find the Biblical foundation for truth. Anyone can make up "signs" out of current events. It's been going on forever and it's always been wrong. And I don't have a desire to believe falsehood, and I'm sure you don't either. So upon what are you basing your beliefs?

All the very best,

Richard

[Codger]

Right Richard. So many today have selected "Proof Texts" from the scriptures and have taken them completely out of context and tried to weave them together to form a viewpoint in another context - mostly in the future.

Of course as you know there are two methods of studying the Bible, exogetically - where the Bible speaks out to us and eisegetically - where we read into the Bible what we want it to say. Then we say "The Bible says." when it really doesn't. You can say the Bible says that God is regathering Israel (1948). But when you analyze the context you are back to the regathering after the captivity.

Larry

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Right Richard. So many today have selected "Proof Texts" from the scriptures and have taken them completely out of context and tried to weave them together to form a viewpoint in another context - mostly in the future.

Of course as you know there are two methods of studying the Bible, exogetically - where the Bible speaks out to us and eisegetically - where we read into the Bible what we want it to say. Then we say "The Bible says." when it really doesn't. You can say the Bible says that God is regathering Israel (1948). But when you analyze the context you are back to the regathering after the captivity.

Larry
I could not have stated it better myself. :highfive:

My hope and prayer is that all our friends in this forum will agree to a single principle - our beliefs must be established on what the Bible really says! Then, when we have established the Big Picture that is confirmed by a vast array of mutually confirming verses, we can relax a little and search out the meaning of the more enigmatic passages that God has left as clues to deep and subtle realities that are not so clearly defined. I'm sure he put those verses in the Bible for a very good reason, but that reason most certainly is not that we should use them as foundation stones in our Hermenuetical House. They are more like ornaments that point to deep and profound truths that can be properly seen only when they are attached to a house solidly built upon the ROCK FOUNDATION of what the Bible really says.


Richard

[Screaming Eagle]

Rose, All I'm asking you to do is to pray about it with an honest open heart to God and ask Him to show you. If you really want to know, He will direct you there.

I still have not heard anyone comment on the scriptures I referenced all pointing toward the same thing. It seems to me like most of the focus has been on denying prophets, no comments about healing, attacking entire groups of people that you don't even know, exalting oneself as if 'you' are the only one with truth and not addressing the main issue that started this string. Is that because you expect to be 'snatched out' while those Jews (that don't really exist) have tribulation? Or do you not believe there will be troubling at all?

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I still have not heard anyone comment on the scriptures I referenced all pointing toward the same thing. It seems to me like most of the focus has been on denying prophets, no comments about healing, attacking entire groups of people that you don't even know, exalting oneself as if 'you' are the only one with truth and not addressing the main issue that started this string. Is that because you expect to be 'snatched out' while those Jews (that don't really exist) have tribulation? Or do you not believe there will be troubling at all?
Hey there Paul,

It sounds like you are getting a bit stressed. There's no need for that. You are amongst friends, and you have every opportunity to present your point of view.

Now you are correct, no one has answered the Scriptures that your presented in your opening post. I'll correct that now:



Mt 24:20-22

But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Yeshua tells us to flee, but to where? When God’s judgment comes on this earth, and it will surely come, are we to blindly flee here and there without any forethought at all of prior preparation? No.

This passage has nothing to do with the modern world. There is no Biblical prediction of global judgment, and even if there were, "fleeing to the mountains" would not help. This is why I didn't respond to those verses. They are all taken out of context and are being completely misunderstood. Jesus told the first century disciples to flee to the mountains because that would save their lives during the Great Tribulation of 66-70 AD. And it worked! Eusebius claims that no Christians died during the destruction of Jerusalem.



Now we, being warned of God through the mouths of His holy prophets, must prepare also. If any man, without spiritual faith, thinks he can prepare his supply of food, water and such while seeking only to save himself, is a walking dead man. But the one who is prepared both spiritually and physically while seeking to save others will save his own family.

See that? Again we are told that we have to physically prepare for some disaster. Do you remember Y2K? The earth was filled with the false prophets proclaiming doom! Doom! Doom! And they made a lot of money off folks who followed their doomsday predictions and bought provisions to "prepare" for the doom of Y2K that never came.

Surely you understand why no one who has seen this kind of thing come and go a thousand times would believe any of it, right?

Can you explain why anyone should believe the Daniel timeline predictions? How are they different than every other false prediction proclaimed by every other false prophet in the last 30 years?

All the very best,

Richard

[Screaming Eagle]

I never really bought into the Y2K stuff and I'm not sure why anyone did. Don't let that lull you to sleep though. Have you read Lk 12:36ff? What about the other scriptures?

And here are some still unanswered questions:
Is that because you expect to be 'snatched out' while those Jews (that don't really exist) have tribulation? Or do you not believe there will be troubling at all?

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I never really bought into the Y2K stuff and I'm not sure why anyone did. Don't let that lull you to sleep though. Have you read Lk 12:36ff? What about the other scriptures?

And here are some still unanswered questions:
Is that because you expect to be 'snatched out' while those Jews (that don't really exist) have tribulation? Or do you not believe there will be troubling at all?
People bought into the Y2K stuff for the same reasons they buy into all the fake prophecy stuff.

Yes I read Luke 12:36ff. It is part of Christ's explanation of the events leading up to 70 AD.

I do not believe I will be "snatched out" - do you believe in the "rapture?"

Please drop the snide remarks about the "Jews who don't really exist" - if you want to discuss the theology of the first and second covenants, then great. But if you want to make the conversation sound rude, then not so great.

As for trouble - sure, there's always been trouble. Ever hear of the pograms, the holocaust, the great earthquake in China in the sixteenth century, the black plague? There's always been trouble. What does that have to do with our conversation?

This whole style of discourse will never get anywhere. Throwing questions back and forth without coming to any agreement about what the Bible really says is a waste of time. We need to get our feet upon the ROCK.

All the best,

Richard

[Screaming Eagle]

Richard,
My comment about the 'Israel that really doesn't exist' and 'Jews that don't really exist regardless of what they call themselves' are based on other comments I've read here (and only here). If indeed we have been made one with them, those comments should not have been made or tolerated. They were not my words but the words of others at this site.

It's interesting to me that the very basis of Preterism was first adopted by the Roman Catholic church so they could defend themselves against talk of being the AntiChrist.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Richard,
My comment about the 'Israel that really doesn't exist' and 'Jews that don't really exist regardless of what they call themselves' are based on other comments I've read here (and only here). If indeed we have been made one with them, those comments should not have been made or tolerated. They were not my words but the words of others at this site.

You apparently misunderstood what you read. The "Jews" no longer exist in the Biblical sense because in the Bible a Jew is defined by the First Covenant which is no longer in force because the Testator died. I explained this to you in Post #24 of the other thread in response to your comment. Here is was our exchange:




Regarding the assertion that there are 'no more Jew and no more Gentile', I'd like to add that he also says there is neither male nor female. Do we not have male and female among us? Certainly (and thankfully lol). But in the eyes of God (which is what is the only Truth that matters) there is no distinction. We have been made one new man IN Christ. That is not to say that 'Jews' are no more any more than it is to say there are no more females (or males for that matter).
Ha! Yes ... I too am thankful that the natural distinction of "male and female" remains! :lmbo:

But the distinction between Jew and Gentile is different. There are no more "Jews" in the Biblical sense because they were defined by the Old Covenant which passed away with the death of the Testator (Christ):
Hebrews 8:13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. 16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.
Richard
You did not respond to my explanation, so it is very rude for you to make snide comments that don't match what I actually said.



It's interesting to me that the very basis of Preterism was first adopted by the Roman Catholic church so they could defend themselves against talk of being the AntiChrist.
That is false. The basis of Preterism is what the Bible teaches. The folks who have been focusing on the the Catholic Preterists don't know how to refute Biblical arguments so they choose the low road of slander and absurdly fallacious "guilt by association" arguments.

I hope you will seek the high road.