They shall deliver you up to the Sanhedrin

[Rose]

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Mark 13:9-11 'But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to the Sanhedrin (sunedrion); and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them. And the gospel must first be published among all nations. But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Spirit.
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One fact that strongly dates the Olivet Discourse as applying to the generation of the 1st century, is when Jesus tells His Disciples that in the up coming days when they are sharing the testimony of Gospel they will be delivered up before the Sanhedrin. The Sanhedrin was the great council of Jerusalem, consisting of 71 members who were elders, priests, and scribes of the Temple. It was the council that Jesus was delivered up to before His crucifixion, and whom the famous Gamaliel was a member of.
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Matt.26:59 Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the Sanhedrin (sunedrion), sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death;
Acts 5:34 Then stood there up one in the Sanhedrin (sunedrion), a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space;
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After the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple the council of the Sanhedrin was no longer in existence, since their body was comprised of the priests, elders, and scribes of the Temple. There is no possibility that anyone today could be brought up before the Sanhedrin, but we know for a fact that the Disciples of Jesus most certainly were delivered up before them.

What say you all....:pop2:


Rose

[Battyus]

Hello Rose,



[/INDENT]After the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple the council of the Sanhedrin was no longer in existence
The Sanhedrin was in existence long after AD70, until AD358:
"The dissolution of the Sanhedrin, in terms of its power to give binding universal decisions, is usually dated to 358CE when Hillel II's mathematical Jewish Calendar was adopted. This marked the last universally accepted decision made by that body."




..., since their body was comprised of the priests, elders, and scribes of the Temple. There is no possibility that anyone today could be brought up before the Sanhedrin
... unless the Sanhedrin comes to exist again. This process started in 2004:
http://www.thesanhedrin.org/en/

You can only understand the Olivet Discourse, if you harmonize it with other books of the Bible, especially with Revelation. I would like to know, where in Revelation would you see a parallel passage to Mark 13:9-13?

Many blessings,
Battyus

[Rose]

Hello Rose,


The Sanhedrin was in existence long after AD70, until AD358:
"The dissolution of the Sanhedrin, in terms of its power to give binding universal decisions, is usually dated to 358CE when Hillel II's mathematical Jewish Calendar was adopted. This marked the last universally accepted decision made by that body."



... unless the Sanhedrin comes to exist again. This process started in 2004:
http://www.thesanhedrin.org/en/



Hi Battyus,

Thank you for the correction..:signthankspin: I should have been more careful with my words. What my meaning was concerning the Sanhedrin is that their power over Temple affairs no longer was in operation after the Temples destruction, and the only reason they had any power over condemning a Jew to death was if the Romans agreed to it. After their dispersion from the Holy Land they were merely a religious council with no real power except concerning religious issues. As the article you posted says the Jews are attempting to re-establish the Sanhedrin, it does not yet exist, and if it ever does come into formation the only people that would go before them would be their own religious body. It certainly would be nothing like what existed in the 1st century.


You can only understand the Olivet Discourse, if you harmonize it with other books of the Bible, especially with Revelation. I would like to know, where in Revelation would you see a parallel passage to Mark 13:9-13?

Many blessings,
Battyus

I totally agree! Harmonizing the Olivet Discourse with Revelation is a powerful witness to both the integrity and understanding of what is being spoken of. But the only way we can date the time period of the Olivet Discourse is on the merits of what Jesus spoke to His Disciples in the OD....not from its harmonization of Revelation.

The vision of Revelation was given after the Jesus gave His prophetic discourse on the Mt. of Olives, it can in no way be used to date the Olivet Discourse, but on the other hand the OD and all the Epistles in the NT can be used to help date Revelation.

Case in point is your question on Mark 13:9-13, which speaks of all the tribulation that believers will suffer for the Word of God, this perfectly harmonizes with what is being spoken of in the 5th Seal and in chapter 7.
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Rev.6:9 And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Rev.7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knows. And he said to me,These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
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Why do you not think that the words Jesus spoke to His Disciples in the OD about all the tribulations (including death) they and their fellow believers would suffer (and they did!) for their testimony, somehow does not apply to what is shown to John in his vision in Revelation?

God Bless

Rose

[Rose]

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Another interesting point in harmonizing Revelation with the Olivet Discourse that helps us to define the time period that Revelation is referring to, is the mention of "great tribulation" (megas thlipsis) in Rev.7, the only other place great tribulation is used is in Matt.24.
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Rev.7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knows. And he said to me,These are they which came out of great tribulation (megas thlipsis), and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
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Matt.24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted (thlispsis), and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake....21) For then shall be great tribulation (megas thlispsis), such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Note also that in the same passage of Matt. 24 the Greek word thlsipsis is applied to the persecution that the Disciples will endure when they are delivered up because of their testimony. This seems like a powerful witness to the tribulation being spoken of in Revelation, applying to what Jesus spoke of would happen to the Disciples and all believers in the OD.


Rose

[Battyus]

Dear Rose,


As the article you posted says the Jews are attempting to re-establish the Sanhedrin, it does not yet exist, and if it ever does come into formation the only people that would go before them would be their own religious body. It certainly would be nothing like what existed in the 1st century.
Time will tell, if the new Sanhedrin is going to have the same rights or not as the 1st century counterpart. Until then my point is, that the word "Sanhedrin" in Mark 9:13 does not bind the events in the Olivet Discourse exclusively to the 1st century as the Sanhedrin existed for ~300 years after the Temple's destruction, and it already in the process of rebirth again. As their spokesman writes, "The rebirth of the Sanhedrin is a slow, ongoing process.", which I think is quite understandable in the current environment.


I totally agree! Harmonizing the Olivet Discourse with Revelation is a powerful witness to both the integrity and understanding of what is being spoken of. But the only way we can date the time period of the Olivet Discourse is on the merits of what Jesus spoke to His Disciples in the OD....not from its harmonization of Revelation.

The vision of Revelation was given after the Jesus gave His prophetic discourse on the Mt. of Olives, it can in no way be used to date the Olivet Discourse, but on the other hand the OD and all the Epistles in the NT can be used to help date Revelation.
I think if the Olivet Discourse and Revelation talk about the same events then they both have to agree on their date. Just as much the OD will help us date Revelation, equally as much Revelation will help us date the events described in the OD.


Case in point is your question on Mark 13:9-13, which speaks of all the tribulation that believers will suffer for the Word of God, this perfectly harmonizes with what is being spoken of in the 5th Seal and in chapter 7.
. Rev.6:9 [I]And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Rev.7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knows. And he said to me,These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

I agree with your harmonization of these passages and to be precise, let me list the matching verses:
Rev 6:9-11
Mat 24:9-13
Mark 13:9-13
Luke 21:12-19

Very important: I agree with you that these verses are in harmony, but I do not agree with you that they took place in the 1st Century. This is important to be said because we've had a misunderstanding about this tiny detail with Richard. :)

I also agree with you that the group of people mentioned in Rev 7:14 is the same group as in the previous 4 passages above.

I would add 1 more thing about this group, as their description starts in Rev 7:9:
"9. After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;"

The words in bold above clearly refer to a worldwide scope and not just to Israel. See ALL nations, ALL tongues, etc. So if the people who are coming out of the great tribulation are from ALL nations, ALL tongues, you can conclude that the tribulation is not a local event in Jerusalem, but a worldwide event.

This helps you understand the scope of the word "gēs" in Rev 6:10, whether it is a scope for the local Israel or if it is a scope for the whole "earth":
"10. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

So, the judgment that will be brought upon these people will be a worldwide event.

If you do not agree to this (which I assume you don't), you must explain, how is it possible that people form ALL nations were in the group of Martyrs, yet the judgment will be only locally in Israel.



Why do you not think that the words Jesus spoke to His Disciples in the OD about all the tribulations (including death) [I]they and their fellow believers would suffer (and they did!) for their testimony, somehow does not apply to what is shown to John in his vision in Revelation?
I guess, I gave my explanation above.

I add one more thing here: What about all the martyrs, that are killed since AD70? Why only those people's blood had to be avenged, who were killed between AD33 and AD70? Why the blood of today's martyrs doesn't count?

God bless you too,
Battyus

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Time will tell, if the new Sanhedrin is going to have the same rights or not as the 1st century counterpart. Until then my point is, that the word "Sanhedrin" in Mark 9:13 does not bind the events in the Olivet Discourse exclusively to the 1st century as the Sanhedrin existed for ~300 years after the Temple's destruction, and it already in the process of rebirth again. As their spokesman writes, "The rebirth of the Sanhedrin is a slow, ongoing process.", which I think is quite understandable in the current environment.

Hey there my friend,

It is good to "get out" once in a while from our private conversation and chat a bit with the rest of the forum. :winking0071:

Have you considered this: Christ's statements about the suffering of the first century disciples under the Jewish Sanhedrin makes perfect sense, and was literally fulfilled. It makes sense because the Sanhedrin ruled the land of Israel at that time, and the disciples were Jews subject to it. Indeed, the Bible frequently speaks of the suffering of Paul and other believers at the hands of the Jews in the first century.

But does it make any sense to apply this warning to the future? Is there going to be a Jewish Sanhedrin that rules the world and that will beat and kill Christians? I can not imagine how those verses could be "fulfilled again."

Many blessing my friend!

Richard

[Rose]

I think if the Olivet Discourse and Revelation talk about the same events then they both have to agree on their date. Just as much the OD will help us date Revelation, equally as much Revelation will help us date the events described in the OD.

Hi Battyus,

Thanks for responding to me, I enjoy the feedback...:D

I see the Olivet Discourse being much more influential in determining the date of Revelation then visa/versa. But I totally agree they are a powerful witness to each other. In the OD, Jesus was speaking to His Disciples about things that were going to happen to the Temple and to them, which really nails down the time period. I see no reason why we shouldn't apply those things that actually happened to the Disciples and the other 1st century believers as being fulfilled.....do you?




I agree with your harmonization of these passages and to be precise, let me list the matching verses:
Rev 6:9-11
Mat 24:9-13
Mark 13:9-13
Luke 21:12-19

Very important: I agree with you that these verses are in harmony, but I do not agree with you that they took place in the 1st Century. This is important to be said because we've had a misunderstanding about this tiny detail with Richard. :)

I also agree with you that the group of people mentioned in Rev 7:14 is the same group as in the previous 4 passages above.

I would add 1 more thing about this group, as their description starts in Rev 7:9:
"9. After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;"

The words in bold above clearly refer to a worldwide scope and not just to Israel. See ALL nations, ALL tongues, etc. So if the people who are coming out of the great tribulation are from ALL nations, ALL tongues, you can conclude that the tribulation is not a local event in Jerusalem, but a worldwide event.

This helps you understand the scope of the word "gēs" in Rev 6:10, whether it is a scope for the local Israel or if it is a scope for the whole "earth":
"10. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

So, the judgment that will be brought upon these people will be a worldwide event.

If you do not agree to this (which I assume you don't), you must explain, how is it possible that people form ALL nations were in the group of Martyrs, yet the judgment will be only locally in Israel.


I guess, I gave my explanation above.

I also think that the description of those in the great tribulation starts in verse 9, and I believe that it applies to all Tribes, Nations, and races of people. Remember at Pentecost when Peter spoke to the Jews attending the Feast...he said there were Jews from every nation under heaven (I counted 16) who heard the message he spoke in their own language. So we know that in the 1st century the Gospel was heard by people from every nation under heaven.
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Acts 2:5-11 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
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Why would you not apply those verses in Rev.7:9 to the 1st century, since we know that to be true?


I add one more thing here: What about all the martyrs, that are killed since AD70? Why only those people's blood had to be avenged, who were killed between AD33 and AD70? Why the blood of today's martyrs doesn't count?

God bless you too,
Battyus

It wasn't only the blood of those shed between AD33 and AD70. It was the fulfillment of the Word of Christ, who said that all the blood of the righteous prophets shed in the land of Israel (under the Old Covenant) would be required of this generation (of Jews) and it would end in their house (the Temple) being left to them desolate. This was the generation that filled up the measure of their fathers sins, it has everything to do with the ending of the Old Covenant age.
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Matt.23:32-38 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Wherefore behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
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God Bless,

Rose

[Battyus]

Hey Richard,


It is good to "get out" once in a while from our private conversation and chat a bit with the rest of the forum. :winking0071:
I agree :)


Have you considered this: Christ's statements about the suffering of the first century disciples under the Jewish Sanhedrin makes perfect sense, and was literally fulfilled. It makes sense because the Sanhedrin ruled the land of Israel at that time, and the disciples were Jews subject to it. Indeed, the Bible frequently speaks of the suffering of Paul and other believers at the hands of the Jews in the first century.
I think it is a mistake to think that only in Israel were the 1st century disciples persecuted: They were burn in Rome under Nero, they were cast into prison in Smyrna, they were slain in Pergamos to name a few places outside of Israel.

Why would Christ punish only those people who persecute the disciples in Israel?



But does it make any sense to apply this warning to the future? Is there going to be a Jewish Sanhedrin that rules the world and that will beat and kill Christians? I can not imagine how those verses could be "fulfilled again."
I don't think that the emphasis was on the persecution of local Christians in Israel by the "Sanhedrin" in these passages.

Take a look at the corresponding passage in Revelation "I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held"
I don't think you could conclude that this verse means only those who were killed by the Sanhedrin. What happened to the souls of men who were killed by Nero? What about those souls who are killed today in Africa for their testimony?

It is only fair to include ALL of these martyrs in this group, and therefore it is only fair to judge ALL who committed these persecutions, not just the ones in the 1st Century.

Many blessings,
Battyus

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hey ho Battyus! :yo:



I think it is a mistake to think that only in Israel were the 1st century disciples persecuted: They were burn in Rome under Nero, they were cast into prison in Smyrna, they were slain in Pergamos to name a few places outside of Israel.

I never said that. But when Jesus condemned the apostate scribes and Pharisees, he most certainly did limit his condemnation to them:
Matthew 23:31 Wherefore ye [scribes and Pharisees] be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? 34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
This passage is exceedingly rich. Please excuse the number of words highlighted red. I felt that necessary because each and every one of them links to many other verses of the Bible that harmonize with them, as shown below.

To begin: Do you believe that when Jesus spoke of "all the righteous blood shed upon the earth" he meant to include all Christian martyrs of all time killed everywhere on the globe? Of course not! He was specifically condemning the corrupt scribes and Pharisees standing right there in front of him in the first century.

And have you considered how this harmonizes with the condemnation of the "Great City" Mystery Babylon (defined as apostate Jerusalem in Revelation 11:8)?
Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
Given that Rev 11:8 defines the "Great City" as apostate Jerusalem, and that Matt 23:35 defines "earth" as Israel, we see how these verses truly harmonize with great clarity. Yet this is but the beginning. Look at the time frame: Revelation was written to first century Jews, and in Matthew 23 Jesus said the judgment would come down on "this generation" meaning his first century audience.

And there is more! Christ called them a "generation of vipers" when he pronounced judgment upon them. Where have we heard that before?
Matthew 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
What is the "wrath to come" if not the wrath that came upon them in the "Days of Vengeance" predicted by Christ?
Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
And why did John the Baptist warn them of this wrath? Because he fulfilled the prophecy of Elijah that was to come before the great and notable day of the Lord!
Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
And why did Christ say "Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers" when he pronounced judgment upon them? For the same reason that Paul said the same thing!

1 Thessalonians 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: 15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: 16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.
It seems to me that we have perfect harmony amongst all these verses and total coherence with the Big Picture of the entire Bible. All these cascading verses are tied together in that one dense little passage of Matthew 23:31-36 that immediately precedes the Olivet Discourse.

I am simply stunned that the coherence of these passages is not common knowledge amongst all students of Scripture. All the pieces fit together with divine perfection. And this is just the tip of the iceberg that pokes up from that one little passage of Matthew 23:31-36! The whole Bible is like this. It's perfectly unified and it makes perfect sense!

Many blessing to you my friend,

Richard

[TheForgiven]

Mark 13:9-11 'But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to the Sanhedrin (sunedrion); and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them. And the gospel must first be published among all nations. But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Spirit.

For anyone to suggest that this verse has implication to today's Minister's is not wise. To date, I've seen very few ministers that could present a great message behind the pulpit without having notes, and/or scripts. :lol: Now I've seen ministers at Pentecostal services who preach without scripts, speaking only what comes to their mind. But often times, they discuss the same issues, over and over and over. Usually, the message are always centered around different disputes of other doctrins (among other Churches), and of course healing and obtaining wealth.

We certainly don't see anyone traveling to Jewish leaders (or even Muslim) and placing their lives on the line in defense of the Gospel, "AS A TESTIMONY AGAINST THEM".

Jesus to the "APOSTLES" that they would be brought before rulers and kings for His Names sake as testimony AGAINST them. Against who?

Think about.

Joe

[CWH]

I also think that the description of those in the great tribulation starts in verse 9, and I believe that it applies to all Tribes, Nations, and races of people. Remember at Pentecost when Peter spoke to the Jews attending the Feast...he said there were Jews from every nation under heaven (I counted 16) who heard the message he spoke in their own language. So we know that in the 1st century the Gospel was heard by people from every nation under heaven.
.[INDENT] Acts 2:5-11 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
Rose

Was it really every nation under heaven? I don't see people from China and India in the Pentecost stated in Act 2.

Many Blessings.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

Was it really every nation under heaven? I don't see people from China and India in the Pentecost stated in Act 2.

Are you saying the Bible is false?

[CWH]

I based on facts from the scriptures. Rose counted 16 nations in all. Were there only 16 nations under the heaven at the time of the Pentecost? Obviously not. We need to research further what does "every nation under the heaven" means. I think it means every nation under heaven that was known to the apostles.

I don't understand why you asked the question, "Are you saying the Bible is false?" Of course it is saying the truth and we are all here to find the truth. If something is controversial, we need to dig in further right? That should be the spirit of all Bible students like you and me.

Many Blessings.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I based on facts from the scriptures. Rose counted 16 nations in all. Were there only 16 nations under the heaven at the time of the Pentecost? Obviously not. We need to research further what does "every nation under the heaven" means. I think it means every nation under heaven that was known to the apostles.

I don't understand why you asked the question, "Are you saying the Bible is false?" Of course it is saying the truth and we are all here to find the truth. If something is controversial, we need to dig in further right? That should be the spirit of all Bible students like you and me.

Many Blessings.
Hi Cheow,

You are absolutely correct - we are all here to find the truth! I guess I didn't understand why you were questioning the meaning of "every nation under heaven."

:sEm_ImSorry:

I don't see anything "controversial" in Acts 2. And I don't see any ambiguity about the meaning of "every nation under heaven." I think your statement is correct: "it means every nation under heaven that was known to the apostles." Or we could refine it slightly to say "it means every nation under heaven in the Biblical world."

Many blessing to you my friend,

Richard

[Battyus]

Good morning fellow Bible students :)


I think your statement is correct: "it means every nation under heaven that was known to the apostles." Or we could refine it slightly to say "it means every nation under heaven in the Biblical world."
Richard

I do not agree with the above statement for 2 reasons:

-I think the Holy Spirit was not concerned about the geographical knowledge level of the Apostles when He inspired them to write down the scriptures. (Meaning, the Holy Spirit was not limited by the knowledge of the Apostles to express himself. Even if the Apostles did not know about a country, the Holy Spirit could have and would have talk about it if He wanted to.)

-The Apostles knew about a lot more countries than those mentioned in the list of 16 countries. For example they also knew about:
Macedonia (1Tim 1:3), Spain (Rom 15:28), Malta (Acts 28:1), Greece (Acts 20:2), so we can not say, that their "Biblical World" meant those 16 countries.

Where does this leave us in regards to the meaning of "every nation under the heaven" in this context?

The point of the passage is that the Apostles spoke languages that they were not supposed to know. To make the point even more clearer scripture lists 16 countries to show that the Apostles indeed speak many languages spoken in those countries.

Nor the list is a complete list of all countries existing at the time, nor it is the complete list of the countries known to the Apostles.

Conclusion:
The meaning of "every nation under the heaven" in this context is simply: MANY NATIONS.

So as I see, it is a mistake to conclude that the Apostles "Biblical World" was only those countries listed.

Many blessings to you guys,
Battyus

[Battyus]

Hey Rose,


I see the Olivet Discourse being much more influential in determining the date of Revelation then visa/versa. But I totally agree they are a powerful witness to each other. In the OD, Jesus was speaking to His Disciples about things that were going to happen to the Temple and to them, which really nails down the time period. I see no reason why we shouldn't apply those things that actually happened to the Disciples and the other 1st century believers as being fulfilled.....do you?

I think to "nail down the period", one must take all the books of the Bible into consideration since if you take the OD out of the context of the whole Bible, we know you will not have the truth.



I also think that the description of those in the great tribulation starts in verse 9, and I believe that it applies to all Tribes, Nations, and races of people. Remember at Pentecost when Peter spoke to the Jews attending the Feast...he said there were Jews from every nation under heaven (I counted 16) who heard the message he spoke in their own language. So we know that in the 1st century the Gospel was heard by people from every nation under heaven.
Please see my explanation of the meaning of "every nation under heaven: under Post #15 http://biblewheel.com/forum/showpost.php?p=18072&postcount=15

(Interesting to note that You and Richard do not agree on the scope of this expression)




Acts 2:5-11 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
.
Why would you not apply those verses in Rev.7:9 to the 1st century, since we know that to be true?
Here you are making a mistake if you identify the People at Pentecost with the people mentioned in Rev 7:9:

Rev 7:9 as we agreed before talks about the martyrs of the 5th Seal in Revelation.

If you say that the they are the same, then it means the 1st Four seals of Revelation happened before Pentecost. (I don't even think you would say that)



It wasn't only the blood of those shed between AD33 and AD70. It was the fulfillment of the Word of Christ, who said that all the blood of the righteous prophets shed in the land of Israel (under the Old Covenant) would be required of this generation (of Jews) and it would end in their house (the Temple) being left to them desolate. This was the generation that filled up the measure of their fathers sins, it has everything to do with the ending of the Old Covenant age.
Then, please show me, when and where were God's promised covenants fulfilled in the 1st Century:
Mosaic Covenant:
Abrahamic Covenant:
Davidic Covenant:
Palestinian covenant:
New Covenant:



. Matt.23:32-38 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. [I]Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Wherefore behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
.
Rose
Let's not stop at verse 38 and include verse 39 to have the full context:
Mat 23:39 "For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."

When did the Jews say in the 1st Century that "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord"? Did they see Jesus after that?

Many blessings,
Battyus

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Good morning fellow Bible students :)


I think your statement is correct: "it means every nation under heaven that was known to the apostles." Or we could refine it slightly to say "it means every nation under heaven in the Biblical world."
Richard

I do not agree with the above statement for 2 reasons:

-I think the Holy Spirit was not concerned about the geographical knowledge level of the Apostles when He inspired them to write down the scriptures. (Meaning, the Holy Spirit was not limited by the knowledge of the Apostles to express himself. Even if the Apostles did not know about a country, the Holy Spirit could have and would have talk about it if He wanted to.)

-The Apostles knew about a lot more countries than those mentioned in the list of 16 countries. For example they also knew about:
Macedonia (1Tim 1:3), Spain (Rom 15:28), Malta (Acts 28:1), Greece (Acts 20:2), so we can not say, that their "Biblical World" meant those 16 countries.

Where does this leave us in regards to the meaning of "every nation under the heaven" in this context?

The point of the passage is that the Apostles spoke languages that they were not supposed to know. To make the point even more clearer scripture lists 16 countries to show that the Apostles indeed speak many languages spoken in those countries.

Nor the list is a complete list of all countries existing at the time, nor it is the complete list of the countries known to the Apostles.

Conclusion:
The meaning of "every nation under the heaven" in this context is simply: MANY NATIONS.

So as I see, it is a mistake to conclude that the Apostles "Biblical World" was only those countries listed.

Many blessings to you guys,
Battyus
Good morning Battyus! :sunny:

I never meant to imply (nor did it even occur to me!) that the 16 nations formed an exhaustive list of "every nation under heaven." On the contrary, it is a representative sample of the nations of the Biblical world. If you look at the list you will see that it includes nations to the north, east, west, and south of Israel. It represents the "four corners" of the Biblical world. Here is how John B Polhill (Acts, New American Commentary) describes the list:
THE COMPOSITION OF THE CROWD (2:9–11a). 2:9–11a Verses 9–11a are a part of the direct discourse spoken by the crowd, but likely they are a note from Luke enumerating the various nationalities present. The list has long intrigued scholars. It begins in what is present-day Iran (Parthia) and then proceeds across the Middle East (Mesopotamia), then southward to Judea, then north to central Turkey (Cappadocia), to northern Turkey (Pontus), eastward to the Aegean coast of Turkey (Asia), inland to Phrygia, then south to the Mediterranean coast of Turkey (Pamphylia). To this point, with the exception of Judea, which seems strangely out of place, the progress is a more-or-less regular curve, from southeast to north to southwest. After Pamphylia no real pattern is discernible. The catalog covers North Africa (Egypt, Libya, Cyrenaica), then north and west all the way to Rome, then southeast to the Mediterranean island of Crete, and finally much farther east and southward to Arabia.
This list represents the same regions found in Isaiah 11 which jointly prophesied the coming of Messiah and the subsequent gathering of the remnant of Israel unto Him at Pentecost.
Isaiah 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day [when the Messiah comes, Isa 11:1], that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time [1st = return from Babylon, 2nd = Pentecost] to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. 12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
Like the list in Acts 2, this list is a representative sample of "the four corners of the earth." John W. D. Watts (Word Biblical Commentary) notes that it literally encompasses the four directions:
"Thus great diagonals are drawn from Assyria (northeast) to Cush (extreme south) and from Elam (due east) to the islands (west and northwest)."
These lists were not meant to be exhaustive. They represent "every nation under heaven" in which the dispersed of Israel lived. Note that Isaiah 11:11 repeats God's promise from Isaiah 1:9 to recover the remnant of His people, and that Paul declared this promise was fulfilled in the Gospel:
Romans 9:27 Isaiah also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Shortly after Messiah died and resurrected, God gathered Israel from "every nation under heaven" at Pentecost and poured out His Spirit upon all that "gladly received his word" (Acts 2:41) because "the promise" was unto them and "to [their] children, and to all that are afar off" (Acts 2:39).

The lists in Acts and Isaiah describe the same thing: "every nation under heaven" = the "four corners" of the Biblical world.

I think we miss the essential meaning of the text if we define "ever nation under heaven" as merely "many nations."

Many blessings you my friend!

Richard

[Edward Goodie]

Good morning fellow Bible students :)

I do not agree with the above statement for 2 reasons:

-I think the Holy Spirit was not concerned about the geographical knowledge level of the Apostles when He inspired them to write down the scriptures. (Meaning, the Holy Spirit was not limited by the knowledge of the Apostles to express himself. Even if the Apostles did not know about a country, the Holy Spirit could have and would have talk about it if He wanted to.)

-The Apostles knew about a lot more countries than those mentioned in the list of 16 countries. For example they also knew about:
Macedonia (1Tim 1:3), Spain (Rom 15:28), Malta (Acts 28:1), Greece (Acts 20:2), so we can not say, that their "Biblical World" meant those 16 countries.

Where does this leave us in regards to the meaning of "every nation under the heaven" in this context?

The point of the passage is that the Apostles spoke languages that they were not supposed to know. To make the point even more clearer scripture lists 16 countries to show that the Apostles indeed speak many languages spoken in those countries.

Nor the list is a complete list of all countries existing at the time, nor it is the complete list of the countries known to the Apostles.

Conclusion:
The meaning of "every nation under the heaven" in this context is simply: MANY NATIONS.

So as I see, it is a mistake to conclude that the Apostles "Biblical World" was only those countries listed.

Many blessings to you guys,
Battyus

Hi Battyus,

I think this is my first response to you. But actually it is not "targeted" at you. It affects all those who endeavor to study the Bible correctly...

I think that the problem in understanding verses like these is because we are so used to using our 21st century Western cultural intellect to decipher the things of God. We need to examine the Bible from the biblical perspective. And since the Bible was written primarily by Jews to Jews, we need to understand the terms of the Bible from the Jewish perspective.

Now, this might be shocking to many (even to some preterists somewhere) but "heaven and earth" was commonly referred to Israel as a covenant people. Go through and look at all the usages of "heaven and earth" in the OT and try to be objective. One example...God does not call heaven and earth to be witnesses if they are inanimate objects! In conjunction with this heaven and earth stuff, the "sea" often refers to Gentile nations. Josephus speaks of these two relationships. I will try to find a quote of his...

That is just another reason why Isaiah tell us that in the NEW heaven and earth that there will still be death (just one example) - Isaiah 65:17-20.

And when one understands the Jewish meaning, it is not a far reach to understand it in the same terms as Peter (a Jew) does in 2 Peter 3:7, 10.
And it is also easy to understand why Peter and his audience expected the promise of the new heavens and earth (from Isaiah 65) to be in their time frame.

Add to this the "elements" (from a Jewish understanding) from 2 Peter 3:10, 12 and it all blends together perfectly in harmony...In order to understand what the Jewish perspective was concerning elements look up Strong's 4747 for the previous five verses as used by Paul. We have no right to impose a 20th century scientific understanding upon the Scriptures. Peter's audience or Peter would have no understanding of nuclear physics or atoms, protons, neutrons, electrons - all those things we believe the elements to represent!

Think Jewish! And think there specific time frame!

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Now, this might be shocking to many (even to some preterists somewhere) but "heaven and earth" was commonly referred to Israel as a covenant people. Go through and look at all the usages of "heaven and earth" in the OT and try to be objective. One example...God does not call heaven and earth to be witnesses if they are inanimate objects!

I agree that "heaven and earth" can be used as a symbol of God's Covenant people (heaven=rulers, earth=people), but I don't think your specific argument works because Joshua said that an inanimate object (a stone with the Torah written on it) was a witness:

Joshua 24:27 And Joshua said unto all the people, Behold, this stone shall be a witness unto us; for it hath heard all the words of the LORD which he spake unto us: it shall be therefore a witness unto you, lest ye deny your God.
Did the stone really "hear" the words of the Lord? Nah ....

[Rose]

Hey Rose,


I think to "nail down the period", one must take all the books of the Bible into consideration since if you take the OD out of the context of the whole Bible, we know you will not have the truth.

Hi Battyus,

I have shown (in other posts) with absolute certainty from the Bible, that the conditions laid out by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse to His Disciples which had to be met before "the end" happens, have occurred a first time to the generation they were spoken to.

1. Presence of false christs
2. Famines and wars
3. Delivered up to the Sanhedrin and synagogues
4. Great tribulation
5. Gospel preached to every nation
6. Armies surrounding Jerusalem, and people from Jerusalem fleeing to the mountains.

My question to you is: do you deny that any or all of these things I've listed occurred a first time in the 1st century before Jerusalem fell? And if you agree that these things did indeed happen, how can they be skipped over and not applied to "the last days" leading up to the end of the age?

God Bless,

Rose

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Here you are making a mistake if you identify the People at Pentecost with the people mentioned in Rev 7:9:

Rev 7:9 as we agreed before talks about the martyrs of the 5th Seal in Revelation.

If you say that the they are the same, then it means the 1st Four seals of Revelation happened before Pentecost. (I don't even think you would say that)

Hey Battyus,

The sealing of the 144,000 began at Pentecost when God sealed 3,000 literal Jews with the literal "Seal of God" which is the "Seal" of God Himself, that is, the Seal of the Holy Spirit. As you know, many Scriptures declare that believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit.

The first century believers continued to be sealed throughout the Tribulation.

There is no problem caused by the order in which the visions were given. The Six Seals are like an overture of the great Symphony of Revelation. We know that the visions of Revelation are not simply consecutive because the 6th Seal declares that "the day of his wrath is come" and then a bunch of stuff happens and in Rev 11 we read again that his "wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged." But then a bunch of other stuff happens, and we read again in Rev 20 about the judgment of the dead. So it is obvious that the same things are talked about in different parts of the vision in a non-linear fashion.

Great chatting! :typing:

Richard

[Battyus]

Hey Richard,


The sealing of the 144,000 began at Pentecost when God sealed 3,000 literal Jews with the literal "Seal of God" which is the "Seal" of God Himself, that is, the Seal of the Holy Spirit. As you know, many Scriptures declare that believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit.
With Rose we're talking about the Martyrs in Rev 7:9-17 and not about the 144,000 sealed Jews. (I don't suppose you would say they are the same?)

Also, at Pentecost there were not only Jews who got saved:
Acts 2:10 "strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes"

If you say, that the 3000 saved at Pentecost was part of the 144,000 sealed ones, then you have a problem of gentiles being in the 144,000. This would go straight against Rev 7:4-7.



There is no problem caused by the order in which the visions were given. The Six Seals are like an overture of the great Symphony of Revelation. We know that the visions of Revelation are not simply consecutive because the 6th Seal declares that "the day of his wrath is come" and then a bunch of stuff happens and in Rev 11 we read again that his "wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged." But then a bunch of other stuff happens, and we read again in Rev 20 about the judgment of the dead. So it is obvious that the same things are talked about in different parts of the vision in a non-linear fashion.
I agree that the book of Revelations has chapters which do not follow each other in a strict order.

My argument was, that the Seals in a strict order (that's why they are numbered).

Have a blessed day,
Battyus

[Battyus]

Hi Rose,


Hi Battyus,

I have shown (in other posts) with absolute certainty from the Bible, that the conditions laid out by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse to His Disciples which had to be met before "the end" happens, have occurred a first time to the generation they were spoken to.

1. Presence of false christs
2. Famines and wars
3. Delivered up to the Sanhedrin and synagogues
4. Great tribulation
5. Gospel preached to every nation
6. Armies surrounding Jerusalem, and people from Jerusalem fleeing to the mountains.

My question to you is: do you deny that any or all of these things I've listed occurred a first time in the 1st century before Jerusalem fell? And if you agree that these things did indeed happen, how can they be skipped over and not applied to "the last days" leading up to the end of the age?

God Bless,

Rose
With all due respect, you are doing exactly what we've talked about will not lead to the truth: Separating the Olivet discourse from the rest of the Scripture.

I would rather see your answer about the covenants, let's see how they were fulfilled in the 1st Century: This way we can see, if your views line up with the rest of the scripture.

With brotherly love,
Battyus

[Battyus]

Hello Joe,


Hi Battyus,

I think this is my first response to you. But actually it is not "targeted" at you. It affects all those who endeavor to study the Bible correctly...
Yes, I think it's the first time we talk to each other. (Even though I've read many of your posts before)



I think that the problem in understanding verses like these is because we are so used to using our 21st century Western cultural intellect to decipher the things of God. We need to examine the Bible from the biblical perspective.
I agree. The cultural context also has to be taken into consideration.



And since the Bible was written primarily by Jews to Jews, we need to understand the terms of the Bible from the Jewish perspective.
Here, I would correct a little: I think the Bible was written primarily by God's inspiration to every living people.
But of course it can not be separated from its Jewish background.

Many blessings,
Battyus

[Edward Goodie]

I agree that "heaven and earth" can be used as a symbol of God's Covenant people (heaven=rulers, earth=people), but I don't think your specific argument works because Joshua said that an inanimate object (a stone with the Torah written on it) was a witness:

Joshua 24:27 And Joshua said unto all the people, Behold, this stone shall be a witness unto us; for it hath heard all the words of the LORD which he spake unto us: it shall be therefore a witness unto you, lest ye deny your God.
Did the stone really "hear" the words of the Lord? Nah ....

1. This was a special stone. It was large in size and moved to a particular location. When people saw it, it would remind them of the covenant of Joshua 24:25...
2. I don't think the Torah was written on the stone unless Joshua managed to get one of those special battery lasers from a BuyMore angel... :)

When I was using witness in regard to heaven and earth most people refer to Deuteronomy 4:26. To me, it is similar to MacArthur saying to his soldiers aboard an aircraft carrier, "I call the Air Force and Navy to witness against you this day...

[Richard Amiel McGough]

With all due respect, you are doing exactly what we've talked about will not lead to the truth: Separating the Olivet discourse from the rest of the Scripture.

Hey Battyus,

I'm mystified by your assertion that Rose was "Separating the Olivet discourse from the rest of the Scripture." Didn't you notice that she did exactly the opposite? She cited many Scriptures that support her argument. Why do you say she separated it?

You have frequently said something similar to me. You told me that the preterist understanding of the OD only makes sense if it is "taken by itself" and separated from the rest of the Bible. That really confuses me because I have been showing you how hundreds of verses from all over the Bible are tightly integrated with the first century understanding of the OD. And others have posted many verses too.

Many blessings my friend,

Richard

[Rose]

Hey Rose,


I think to "nail down the period", one must take all the books of the Bible into consideration since if you take the OD out of the context of the whole Bible, we know you will not have the truth.

Hi Battyus,

I have shown (in other posts) with absolute certainty from the Bible, that the conditions laid out by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse to His Disciples which had to be met before "the end" happens, have occurred a first time to the generation they were spoken to.

1. Presence of false christs
2. Famines and wars
3. Delivered up to the Sanhedrin and synagogues
4. Great tribulation
5. Gospel preached to every nation
6. Armies surrounding Jerusalem, and people from Jerusalem fleeing to the mountains.

My question to you is: do you deny that any or all of these things I've listed occurred a first time in the 1st century before Jerusalem fell? And if you agree that these things did indeed happen, how can they be skipped over and not applied to "the last days" leading up to the end of the age?

God Bless,

Rose
Hi Rose,


With all due respect, you are doing exactly what we've talked about will not lead to the truth: Separating the Olivet discourse from the rest of the Scripture.
Hi Battyus,

Thank you for continuing this conversation with me, so we can clear up our areas of misunderstanding...:signthankspin:

As you can see from your original statement about taking the Olivet Discourse out of its context of the whole Bible, that I have done no such thing....quite the opposite I would say. I have shown through many verses how tightly woven the Olivet Discourse is with the rest of Scripture. Over and over again I have shown how verses in other books of the Bible not only parallel, but confirm the fulfillment of the Words of Jesus, as to the things that must come to pass before "the end".


I would rather see your answer about the covenants, let's see how they were fulfilled in the 1st Century: This way we can see, if your views line up with the rest of the scripture.

With brotherly love,
Battyus



I would love to answer your question about "the Covenants", but first let me ask you to answer my question which you totally skipped over!


My question to you is: do you deny that any or all of these things I've listed occurred a first time in the 1st century before Jerusalem fell? And if you agree that these things did indeed happen, how can they be skipped over and not applied to "the last days" leading up to the end of the age?Now for your question: First I would like to stress that I see the Old Covenant (singular) as being the only Covenant the Jews were under. It was inclusive of all the promises and laws which resided in the Ark of the Covenant in the Holy of Holies. When Jesus brought in the New Covenant, the Old was replaced and was in the process of vanishing away in the time period leading up to the destruction of the Temple. When the Temple was destroyed, all that once stood for the Old system was gone never to be found again.
Heb.8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:....13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
.
I hope that answers your question about how all was fulfilled in Christ, our New Covenant.

God Bless,

Rose

[Edward Goodie]

Here, I would correct a little: I think the Bible was written primarily by God's inspiration to every living people.
But of course it can not be separated from its Jewish background.

Many blessings,
Battyus

Just a slight point...my name is not Joe. It is Ted.

And if I may offer additional critique...

Without a doubt the Bible is APPLICABLE to all people when it is applicable. Not all things written in the Bible are applicable to us as present-day saints.

People today read the Bible as if it was directly written to them. IT WAS NOT. It was directly written to OTHER individuals. 1st and 2nd Timothy were written to Timothy. 1st and 2nd Corinthians were epistles written to an existing first century church. Revelation was written to seven churches across Asia Minor...

But what was said in those books does APPLY to us when, in fact, in does apply to us. Historical events stay in the past!

Not one single person here believes he ought to go looking through the archeological sites to find Paul's cloak and endeavor to bring it to his corpse. Not one single person here believes that we need to fly into Ben Gurion airport in Jerusalem to find the path/road that the good Samaritan traveled upon in order to fulfill God's command of Luke 10:37...
No Christian that I know travels to Jerusalem each year to make an offering.

What was written to those first century Christians DIRECTLY APPLIED to them. They are the audience from which we SHOULD derive the original interpretation to see if that passage is still applicable to us.

What most people (vast majority of Christians today) do is read the Bible as if it was being written to them in the 21st century. This is why we have so many "technological" explanations for prophecy - none of which were common knowledge in the first century. Does this errant view suppose that only people in the last half of the 20th century could understand Revelation and 2 Peter 3 (nuclear bombs, atomic structure, helicopters, bar codes, laser implants, etc.)? Believe it or not, but most people believe this is true...

We must interpret the Bible from the point of view of when it was written, concerning not only the time it was written, but by who wrote it, and who it was ORIGINALLY written to. This is Hermeneutics 101 and it is absolutely foreign to most.

The symbology that is riddled throughout the Scriptures (OT & NT) is abundant. Most theological systems don't recognize this and "literally" translate totally ignoring the Jewish perspective and common understanding of these things.

A question I always like to ask is, "How did Jacob know that Joseph was talking about himself, his wife, and his eleven sons in Genesis 37:9-10." Ignoring the common understanding of basic Jewish figures such as the sun, moon and stars is devastating to an exegetical understanding of Scriptures like Matthew 24:29 for instance...

[Richard Amiel McGough]

What most people (vast majority of Christians today) do is read the Bible as if it was being written to them in the 21st century. This is why we have so many "technological" explanations for prophecy - none of which were common knowledge in the first century. Does this errant view suppose that only people in the last half of the 20th century could understand Revelation and 2 Peter 3 (nuclear bombs, atomic structure, helicopters, bar codes, laser implants, etc.)? Believe it or not, but most people believe this is true...

We must interpret the Bible from the point of view of when it was written, concerning not only the time it was written, but by who wrote it, and who it was ORIGINALLY written to. This is Hermeneutics 101 and it is absolutely foreign to most.

That is an extremely important poing. I would have written that myself if you had not beat me to it.

Thanks!

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Then, please show me, when and where were God's promised covenants fulfilled in the 1st Century:
Mosaic Covenant:
Abrahamic Covenant:
Davidic Covenant:
Palestinian covenant:
New Covenant:

Hey there my friend! :yo:

Have you noticed that the OT never uses the word "covenants" (plural)? There's a reason for that. There was only one covenant between God and Israel. All the "other" covenants were augmentations of the original covenant made with Abraham (Gal 3:19). Here is how God explains it:
Psalm 105:7 He is the LORD our God: his judgments are in all the earth. 8 He hath remembered his covenant [singular] for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations. 9 Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac; 10 And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:
Thus we see the sequence of God's Everlasting Covenant from Abraham to Israel:

Abraham ==> Isaac ==> Jacob ==> Israel
This covenant was fulfilled in Jesus Christ in the first century: "In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away" (Hebrews 8:13).

All the best,

Richard

[Edward Goodie]

That is an extremely important poing. I would have written that myself if you had not beat me to it.

Thanks!

How long would you like me to delay before responding from now on? :ranger: :winking0071:

[Richard Amiel McGough]

How long would you like me to delay before responding from now on? :ranger: :winking0071:
Please never hesitate! It saves me a lot of work ... :thumb:

[Edward Goodie]

Please never hesitate! It saves me a lot of work ... :thumb:

...if it is work you want...

[Richard Amiel McGough]

...if it is work you want...
No! :nono:

I was saying how nice it is for you to take up some of the slack with your excellent answers.

:signthankspin:

[Battyus]

Hey Rose,


Thank you for continuing this conversation with me, so we can clear up our areas of misunderstanding...:signthankspin:
The pleasure is at this side of the table :)


I would love to answer your question about "the Covenants", but first let me ask you to answer my question which you totally skipped over!
I've skipped over your questions, because as I've said you've disconnected the Olivet Discourse from the rest of the Scripture.

Your questions are pretty much just an index to the Olivet Discourse, which I stated already that in itself supports the Preterist view. That is, if you diconnect the Olivet Discourse from the rest of the Bible.

So, if you insist to ask the wrong questions, you'll get the wrong answers, but here we go:

1. Presence of false christs
Ambiguous question. Please quote from the Bible where you see the false christs interacting with the Apostles.

2. Famines and wars
Ambiguous question. Please quote from the Bible where you see famine and wars happening to the Apostles. Show these wars in the history books. How many wars are we talking about here?

3. Delivered up to the Sanhedrin and synagogues
Many people were Delivered up to the Sanhedrin and synagogues before the Apostles and after AD70 too. How does this prove the Preterist view?

4. Great tribulation
Ambiguous question. Define Great tribulation from the Bible. Tell me where in Revelation and in Daniel you see the Great Tribulation that you refer here to and I can answer your question then.

5. Gospel preached to every nation
Do you think that people on the American and Australian continents heard the Gospel before AD70? If yes, then please provide a chapter and verse from the Bible, or any documents in history that would suggest this.

6. Armies surrounding Jerusalem, and people from Jerusalem fleeing to the mountains.
What year was this? AD66, AD70? Please show me this information from History, then try to pinpoint in Revelation and in Daniel, when did this happen, then I can answer your question. (When you give me the chapter and verse in Daniel, please provide the relation of this event to the 70th 7.)

Also, I do not understand what do you imply by making the "first time" phrase bold in your question. Please explain.



Now for your question: First I would like to stress that I see the Old Covenant (singular) as being the only Covenant the Jews were under. It was inclusive of all the promises and laws which resided in the Ark of the Covenant in the Holy of Holies. When Jesus brought in the New Covenant, the Old was replaced and was in the process of vanishing away in the time period leading up to the destruction of the Temple. When the Temple was destroyed, all that once stood for the Old system was gone never to be found again.
Heb.8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:....13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
.
I hope that answers your question about how all was fulfilled in Christ, our New Covenant.
Unfortunately, this does not answer my question. It would be too easy to say, "well, the Mosaic, Abrahamic, Davidic, Palestinian and New Covenants are really just one covenant".

I say it again, that one must look at All the references in the Bible in order to understand the covenants too. Here is what I mean:

In your quotation from Hebrews 8:8-13 you skip over 4 verses, let me quote them:
"9. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11. And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more."

So, can you please explain how God put His laws into the mind and hearts in the house of Israel and how were they God's people in the 1st Century, when all along the Preterist view tells, that how bad the Israelites were and how well they got punished by God at AD70?

If this covenant was fulfilled on the house of Israel in the 1st century, then how come they were so badly punished in the same time-frame?

Many blessings,
Battyus

[Battyus]

Hi Ted,


Just a slight point...my name is not Joe. It is Ted.
I agree. (And I'm sorry, I was looking at another post, when I was answering yours)



A question I always like to ask is, "How did Jacob know that Joseph was talking about himself, his wife, and his eleven sons in Genesis 37:9-10." Ignoring the common understanding of basic Jewish figures such as the sun, moon and stars is devastating to an exegetical understanding of Scriptures like Matthew 24:29 for instance...
Well, how?

Many blessings,
Battyus

[Rose]

Hey Rose,


The pleasure is at this side of the table :)


I've skipped over your questions, because as I've said you've disconnected the Olivet Discourse from the rest of the Scripture.

Your questions are pretty much just an index to the Olivet Discourse, which I stated already that in itself supports the Preterist view. That is, if you diconnect the Olivet Discourse from the rest of the Bible.

Come on Battyus....that is a pretty lame excuse. Every point I've made has been backed up with Scripture which is far more than you have done.


So, if you insist to ask the wrong questions, you'll get the wrong answers, but here we go:

What is that suppose to mean...:confused: Wrong questions? Wrong answers?


1. Presence of false christs
Ambiguous question. Please quote from the Bible where you see the false christs interacting with the Apostles.

2. Famines and wars
Ambiguous question. Please quote from the Bible where you see famine and wars happening to the Apostles. Show these wars in the history books. How many wars are we talking about here?

3. Delivered up to the Sanhedrin and synagogues
Many people were Delivered up to the Sanhedrin and synagogues before the Apostles and after AD70 too. How does this prove the Preterist view?

4. Great tribulation
Ambiguous question. Define Great tribulation from the Bible. Tell me where in Revelation and in Daniel you see the Great Tribulation that you refer here to and I can answer your question then.

5. Gospel preached to every nation
Do you think that people on the American and Australian continents heard the Gospel before AD70? If yes, then please provide a chapter and verse from the Bible, or any documents in history that would suggest this.

6. Armies surrounding Jerusalem, and people from Jerusalem fleeing to the mountains.
What year was this? AD66, AD70? Please show me this information from History, then try to pinpoint in Revelation and in Daniel, when did this happen, then I can answer your question. (When you give me the chapter and verse in Daniel, please provide the relation of this event to the 70th

Also, I do not understand what do you imply by making the "first time" phrase bold in your question. Please explain.



1. Presence of false christs
1John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

2. Famines and wars
Acts 11:27 And in these days came prophets from Jerusalem unto Antioch. And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great famine throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.

3. Delivered up to the Sanhedrin and synagogues
Link to post (http://biblewheel.com/forum/showpost.php?p=17972&postcount=1)

4. Great tribulation
Link to post (http://biblewheel.com/forum/showpost.php?p=17984&postcount=4)

5. Gospel preached to every nation
Thread Link (http://biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1483)

6. Armies surrounding Jerusalem, and people from Jerusalem fleeing to the mountains.
Thread Link (http://biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1477)

What I meant by first time is this: If a statement made by Jesus in answer to the questions asked by the Disciples has an application in the 1st century....meaning it was fulfilled upon the generation Jesus was speaking to, how can one skip over that fulfillment?


God Bless,

Rose

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I've skipped over your questions, because as I've said you've disconnected the Olivet Discourse from the rest of the Scripture.

Battyus,

I have no idea what you are talking about. You have made this assertion that we have "disconnected the Olivet Discourse from the rest of Scripture" many times, but you have never supported your assertion with any evidence. Furthermore, nothing could be further from the truth. You have been shown hundreds of verses that are fully harmonized with the Olivet Discourse. The integration of the OD with the rest of Scripture is the cornerstone of the Preterist understanding.

Have you not been reading our posts?

Please try to remember how important it is that we track with what we are saying to each other, and that we provide evidence for our claims. It is extremely frustrating to be told over and over again that we have "disconnected" the OD when the truth is that we have done the opposite.

Richard

[Richard Amiel McGough]

5. Gospel preached to every nation
Do you think that people on the American and Australian continents heard the Gospel before AD70? If yes, then please provide a chapter and verse from the Bible, or any documents in history that would suggest this.

Battyus,

How is it that you ignored the answer to this question? The phrase "all nations" in the Bible has absolutely nothing to do with North America. It has been demonstrated with great clarity and absolute certainty that the passages concerning the preaching of the gospel to "all nations" were fulfilled in the first century. The Bible states this fact quite explicitly. For example:

Colossians 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; 6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world [kosmos]; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:
We have presented a list of six pairs of mutually confirming verses that all teach this truth in Post #15 (http://biblewheel.com/forum/showpost.php?p=18135&postcount=15) of the other thread. You have not yet refuted even one of those prophecy/fulfillment pairs, let alone all six of them.

Richard

[Rose]

So, can you please explain how God put His laws into the mind and hearts in the house of Israel and how were they God's people in the 1st Century, when all along the Preterist view tells, that how bad the Israelites were and how well they got punished by God at AD70?

If this covenant was fulfilled on the house of Israel in the 1st century, then how come they were so badly punished in the same time-frame?

Many blessings,
Battyus

Hi Battyus,

You seem to have forgotten ALL the Disciples were Jews of the house of Israel. The first born church at Pentecost was ALL Jewish! That is how the Covenant was fulfilled on the house of Israel...they were the remnant that God promised to save.

God Bless,

Rose

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

Hi Cheow,

You are absolutely correct - we are all here to find the truth! I guess I didn't understand why you were questioning the meaning of "every nation under heaven."

:sEm_ImSorry:

I don't see anything "controversial" in Acts 2. And I don't see any ambiguity about the meaning of "every nation under heaven." I think your statement is correct: "it means every nation under heaven that was known to the apostles." Or we could refine it slightly to say "it means every nation under heaven in the Biblical world."

Many blessing to you my friend,

Richard

Could 'heaven' have the same meaning as what we discussed in the 2 Peter 3 thread. Heaven is the soruce of ordinances and earth is the domain of them. Thus there may have been dual heavens (ordinances) in Jerusalem, those under the law of moses, and those under Rome. Luke could have been referring to either heavens .... or both heavens. Every nation, is likely not every tribe of Israel, although that would be true also; but is likely every nation/race under Rome that was properly being referred to. Under the new covenant, the source of ordinances is Jesus (Holy Spirt) and the individual life; and associated lives (commonwealth of [seed of] Israel) is the temple of it's domain.

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

Hey there my friend! :yo:

Have you noticed that the OT never uses the word "covenants" (plural)? There's a reason for that. There was only one covenant between God and Israel. All the "other" covenants were augmentations of the original covenant made with Abraham (Gal 3:19). Here is how God explains it:
Psalm 105:7 He is the LORD our God: his judgments are in all the earth. 8 He hath remembered his covenant [singular] for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations. 9 Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac; 10 And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:
Thus we see the sequence of God's Everlasting Covenant from Abraham to Israel:

Abraham ==> Isaac ==> Jacob ==> Israel
This covenant was fulfilled in Jesus Christ in the first century: "In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away" (Hebrews 8:13).

All the best,

Richard
In support:

Acts 3:24, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

25Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

26Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.


To slightly contrast with your statement, the mosaic conditional, corporal national covenant was a anti-type of the everlasting covenant.
Deut 5:3 gives a beginning hint.
1And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.

2The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.

3The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

For the law came by Moses: but grace and truth by Jesus. Cool beans.

[TheForgiven]

Welcome back EndTimes....haven't seen you in a while. Look forward to more outstanding posts.

Where have you been hiding out these days?

Joe

[Rose]

Hi Battyus,


2. Famines and wars
Ambiguous question. Please quote from the Bible where you see famine and wars happening to the Apostles. Show these wars in the history books. How many wars are we talking about here?

6. Armies surrounding Jerusalem, and people from Jerusalem fleeing to the mountains.
What year was this? AD66, AD70? Please show me this information from History, then try to pinpoint in Revelation and in Daniel, when did this happen, then I can answer your question. (When you give me the chapter and verse in Daniel, please provide the relation of this event to the 70th 7.)

You asked for some historical info on when the armies surrounded Jerusalem in the 1st century, so here are two links that present the entire works of these two historians.

The works of Flavius Josephus (http://www.biblestudytools.com/history/flavius-josephus/)

The Annals of Tacitus (http://classics.mit.edu/Tacitus/annals.html)

These are extensive histories of the many wars the Jews were engaged in, in the 1st century time period leading up to AD70.

God Bless,

Rose

[Battyus]

Hi Rose,



You asked for some historical info on when the armies surrounded Jerusalem in the 1st century, so here are two links that present the entire works of these two historians.

The works of Flavius Josephus (http://www.biblestudytools.com/history/flavius-josephus/)

The Annals of Tacitus (http://classics.mit.edu/Tacitus/annals.html)

These are extensive histories of the many wars the Jews were engaged in, in the 1st century time period leading up to AD70.

God Bless,

Rose

Thank you for the links!

I'm eager to see your answer to the beginning of my question: "Please quote from the Bible where you see famine and wars happening to the Apostles".

Have a blessed day,
Battyus

[Battyus]

Dear Rose,



These are extensive histories of the many wars the Jews were engaged in, in the 1st century time period leading up to AD70.

God Bless,

Rose

After taking a look at the "wars" in the time period three things stand out:
-None of these descriptions mention the sufferings of Christians.
-None of these "wars" mentioned any Christian being taken to Sanhedrin and to the synagogues to get beat up.
-None of these stories mentioned any Christian to get persecuted for Christs sake.

Remember, these wars supposed to produce the group of Christian martyrs mentioned under the 5th Seal of Revelation.

Rev.6:9 And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes

Rev.7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knows. And he said to me,These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

So, unfortunately I don't see any mentioning in these writings where a great multitude of Christians (which no man could number) would be killed for Christ sake, therefore it does not support at all the 5th Seal's happening in the 1st Century.

Many blessings,
Battyus

[Rose]

Hi Rose,



Thank you for the links!

I'm eager to see your answer to the beginning of my question: "Please quote from the Bible where you see famine and wars happening to the Apostles".

Have a blessed day,
Battyus

Hey Battyus,

It is very clear from the book of Acts that the Disciples, and the whole christian community throughout the world, suffered a severe drought in the days of Claudius Caesar (AD 41-54).
.
Acts 11:27-29 And in these days came prophets from Jerusalem unto Antioch. And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great famine throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar. Then the disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea:
.

As far as wars, the documentation resides outside the Bible in the works of Josephus, and Tacitus among others. If you haven't already read their works it would be highly beneficial in understanding that time period. Long before the last war that destroyed the city and Temple, there were many skirmishes that left tens of thousands of Jews dead. It was a very bloody time in their history (not that there weren't many others).

The main point being that the Apostles experienced great famines, and terrible wars in their lifetime, so there is no justification skipping over those events and not applying them to the Words Jesus spoke in the Olivet Discourse.

God bless,

Rose

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Remember, these wars supposed to produce the group of Christian martyrs mentioned under the 5th Seal of Revelation.

I think you have confused the 5th Seal with the 2nd Seal. The 2nd Seal corresponds to Christ's statement of "wars and rumors of wars" in the OD. The 5th Seal corresponds to these words:
Luke 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
Christ said nothing about his disciples suffering under the Jews because of "wars."

Now as for the fulfillment of Luke 21:12 and the 5th Seal in the first century. There is an incontrovertible mountain of evidence that supports this point. Peter and other disciples was arrested by the Jews for their testimony of Christ. Stephen was brought before the Sanhedrin, and ultimately killed for his testimony just as Jesus predicted. Paul approved of this act, and went on to arrest and persecute Christians "unto death":
Acts 22:3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day. 4 And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women. 5 As also the high priest doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished.
And after his conversion, Paul bore witness to the fulfillment of Christ's warnings:
1 Thessalonians 2:14 14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: 15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: 16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.
I am simply stunned that I need to quote Scripture to you. Anyone with the most elementary knowledge of Holy Scripture knows that the warnings of Christ about the persecution of his followers were abundantly fulfilled in the first century.

Many blessings,

Richard

[Edward Goodie]

I think you have confused the 5th Seal with the 2nd Seal. The 2nd Seal corresponds to Christ's statement of "wars and rumors of wars" in the OD. The 5th Seal corresponds to these words:
Luke 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
Christ said nothing about his disciples suffering under the Jews because of "wars."

Now as for the fulfillment of Luke 21:12 in the first century. There is an incontrovertible mountain of evidence that supports this point. Peter and other disciples was arrested by the Jews for their testimony of Christ. Stephen was brought before the Sanhedrin, and ultimately killed for his testimony just as Jesus predicted. Paul approved of this act, and went on to arrest and persecute Christians "unto death":
Acts 22:3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day. 4 And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women. 5 As also the high priest doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished.
And after his conversion, Paul bore witness to the fulfillment of Christ's warnings:
1 Thessalonians 2:14 14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: 15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: 16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.
I am simply stunned that I need to quote Scripture to you. Anyone with the most elementary knowledge of Holy Scripture knows that the warnings of Christ about the persecution of his followers were abundantly fulfilled in the first century.

Many blessings,

Richard

When one has been taught over and over and over again that NONE of the fulfillments ever occurred in the first century and when Hermeneutics 101 (Interpreting the Bible from the point of view of when it was written, concerning not only the time it was written, but by who wrote it, and who it was ORIGINALLY written to) is completely ignored because of a pre-defined determination that Christ's coming MUST be future, even when looking right at the verse that contradicts this theology it WILL NOT BE SEEN. For 20 years I was trapped in that kind of a system...

[Richard Amiel McGough]

When one has been taught over and over and over again that NONE of the fulfillments ever occurred in the first century and when Hermeneutics 101 (Interpreting the Bible from the point of view of when it was written, concerning not only the time it was written, but by who wrote it, and who it was ORIGINALLY written to) is completely ignored because of a pre-defined determination that Christ's coming MUST be future, even when looking right at the verse that contradicts this theology it WILL NOT BE SEEN. For 20 years I was trapped in that kind of a system...
That is exactly correct. I've been witnessing this specific blindness for years but it still astounds me each time I see it. Folks study Scripture every day for years and years and yet they do no see the most obvious and prominent facts that are right there written in black and white.

[Battyus]

Hey Richard,


I think you have confused the 5th Seal with the 2nd Seal. The 2nd Seal corresponds to Christ's statement of "wars and rumors of wars" in the OD. The 5th Seal corresponds to these words:
Luke 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
Christ said nothing about his disciples suffering under the Jews because of "wars."
I did not confuse the 5th Seal with the 2nd one:
2nd Seal: Wars
3rd Seal: Famine
4th Seal: Death
5th Seal: Martyrdom

The 3-5 Seals are direct results of the 2nd Seal, therefore my statement of the wars producing the martyrs are correct.

Only if you disconnect the Seals from each other, you can say that the Martyrdom is separate event from the wars mentioned in the 2nd Seal.



Now as for the fulfillment of Luke 21:12 and the 5th Seal in the first century. There is an incontrovertible mountain of evidence that supports this point. Peter and other disciples was arrested by the Jews for their testimony of Christ. Stephen was brought before the Sanhedrin, and ultimately killed for his testimony just as Jesus predicted. Paul approved of this act, and went on to arrest and persecute Christians "unto death":
Acts 22:3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day. 4 And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women. 5 As also the high priest doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished.
And after his conversion, Paul bore witness to the fulfillment of Christ's warnings:
1 Thessalonians 2:14 14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: 15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: 16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.
I am simply stunned that I need to quote Scripture to you. Anyone with the most elementary knowledge of Holy Scripture knows that the warnings of Christ about the persecution of his followers were abundantly fulfilled in the first century.
... and continually being fulfilled up until today. Or would you say, that the persecutions stopped at AD70?

Have a blessed night,
Battyus

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Now as for the fulfillment of Luke 21:12 and the 5th Seal in the first century. There is an incontrovertible mountain of evidence that supports this point. Peter and other disciples was arrested by the Jews for their testimony of Christ. Stephen was brought before the Sanhedrin, and ultimately killed for his testimony just as Jesus predicted. Paul approved of this act, and went on to arrest and persecute Christians "unto death":
Acts 22:3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day. 4 And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women. 5 As also the high priest doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished.
And after his conversion, Paul bore witness to the fulfillment of Christ's warnings:
1 Thessalonians 2:14 14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: 15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: 16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.
I am simply stunned that I need to quote Scripture to you. Anyone with the most elementary knowledge of Holy Scripture knows that the warnings of Christ about the persecution of his followers were abundantly fulfilled in the first century.

... and continually being fulfilled up until today. Or would you say, that the persecutions stopped at AD70?

Have a blessed night,
Battyus
Hey there Battyus,

If the 5th seal is "continually being fulfilled until today" then it appears you are asserting that the seals were opened in the first century.

Is this correct? Do you assert the seals were opened in the first century?

Great chatting my friend,

Richard

[Battyus]

Hi Richard,


Hey there Battyus,

If the 5th seal is "continually being fulfilled until today" then it appears you are asserting that the seals were opened in the first century.

Is this correct? Do you assert the seals were opened in the first century?

No, I was not implying that the 5th Seal was opened in the 1st Century.

My sentence was referring to the fact that Christians are being persecuted even today.

In my opinion if the 5th Seal would have meant to be opened in the 1st Century as a judgement from God, then the martyrdom would only make sense to stop in AD70, when the "age" reached its end according to the Preterist view. Why would God continuously judge Christians with Martyrdom in the new age?

Thanks for giving an opportunity to clear up any future confusion!

Your brother,
Battyus

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Richard,

No, I was not implying that the 5th Seal was opened in the 1st Century.

My sentence was referring to the fact that Christians are being persecuted even today.

In my opinion if the 5th Seal would have meant to be opened in the 1st Century as a judgement from God, then the martyrdom would only make sense to stop in AD70, when the "age" reached its end according to the Preterist view. Why would God continuously judge Christians with Martyrdom in the new age?

Thanks for giving an opportunity to clear up any future confusion!

Your brother,
Battyus

Hi Bro! :icon_hello:

Thanks for your attempt to clear up the confusion. Unfortunately, you have only amplified it. Your question "Why would God continuously judge Christians with Martyrdom in the new age?" makes no sense at all. Martyrdom was not a "judgment" upon Christians! Where did you ever get that idea? Was God "judging" Paul when He allowed him to be beaten by the Jews for preaching the Gospel? Was Stephen being "judged" by God when the Jews killed him for his testimony of Christ?

It seems like you have forgotten what we are trying to do here. You constantly assert (correctly, I might add) that we must harmonize the verses of the Bible. But you constantly reject the most obvious harmonizations if they contradict your futurist theories! I presented incontrovertible Biblical testimony that the persecution predicted in the Olivet Discourse happened to the disciples just like Jesus said it would. There is perfect harmony between the OD and the mountain of verses that speak of the persecution of Christians by the Jews in the first century.

Do you deny that the persecution and martyrdom of first century Christians are a fulfillment of the words that Christ spoke in the OD? If so, please explain why.

Thanks!

Richard

[Battyus]

Hi Richard,


Hi Bro! :icon_hello:

Thanks for your attempt to clear up the confusion. Unfortunately, you have only amplified it. Your question "Why would God continuously judge Christians with Martyrdom in the new age?" makes no sense at all. Martyrdom was not a "judgment" upon Christians! Where did you ever get that idea?

This is where I got the idea from:
-7 Seals of Revelations are 7 Judgments from God
-5th Seal is Martyrdom, and as we agreed is harmonized with Luk 21:12 from Olivet Discourse ( http://biblewheel.com/forum/showpost.php?p=17743&postcount=44 )
-According to you in http://biblewheel.com/forum/showpost.php?p=18173&postcount=48, the 5th Seal was fulfilled before AD70 when Christians were killed (martyred):
"Now as for the fulfillment of Luke 21:12 and the 5th Seal in the first century. There is an incontrovertible mountain of evidence that supports this point. Peter and other disciples was arrested by the Jews for their testimony of Christ. Stephen was brought before the Sanhedrin, and ultimately killed for his testimony just as Jesus predicted. Paul approved of this act, and went on to arrest and persecute Christians "unto death":"

And this is why I can not accept the 1st Century fulfillment of the 5th Seal:
If it was fulfilled before AD70, then it makes no sense, that Christians are being still continuously killed for their testimony, even today. It's like the 5th Seal never ended!



Was God "judging" Paul when He allowed him to be beaten by the Jews for preaching the Gospel? Was Stephen being "judged" by God when the Jews killed him for his testimony of Christ?
You said, that Stephen's killing was part of the 5th Seal Judgement (see above).

If you stay by your sentence, that Stephen's killing was part of the 5th Seal judgement, then according to you, Yes God was judging Stephen.

If you say, that Stephen's killing was not part of the 5th Seal, then you lost your argument that the persecution of the 1st Century Christians is the fulfillment of Luk 21:12 in the Olivet Discourse.

Please select one and let me know. :winking0071:



It seems like you have forgotten what we are trying to do here. You constantly assert (correctly, I might add) that we must harmonize the verses of the Bible. But you constantly reject the most obvious harmonizations if they contradict your futurist theories!
Allow me to correct: I reject anything that makes no sense and is not supported by scripture.



I presented incontrovertible Biblical testimony that the persecution predicted in the Olivet Discourse happened to the disciples just like Jesus said it would. There is perfect harmony between the OD and the mountain of verses that speak of the persecution of Christians by the Jews in the first century.
Yes, and you said that these persecutions are part of the 5th Seal Judgement . See above, why it makes no sense.



Do you deny that the persecution and martyrdom of first century Christians are a fulfillment of the words that Christ spoke in the OD? If so, please explain why.
I just did above.

Many blessings my brother!
Battyus

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Richard,

Hi Bro! :icon_hello:

Thanks for your attempt to clear up the confusion. Unfortunately, you have only amplified it. Your question "Why would God continuously judge Christians with Martyrdom in the new age?" makes no sense at all. Martyrdom was not a "judgment" upon Christians! Where did you ever get that idea?

This is where I got the idea from:
-7 Seals of Revelations are 7 Judgments from God

Where does the Bible define the 7 seals as 7 judgments?

Your false premise leads to the absurd conclusion that the martyrs under the altar were killed as a "judgment" upon them by God! This directly contradicts the reason stated in Scripture. They were killed by unbelievers because of their TESTIMONY FOR CHRIST!!! Are you really saying that God "judged" them with death for being faithful to Christ and His Word?

Furthermore, the martyrs prayed that God would judge those that killed them. Consider what the Bible really says:
Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
And what do the white robes represent? The answer is given later in the same book "for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints" (Rev 19:7). Does God judge the righteous with death?

Your interpretation of Revelation is totally disconnected from the rest of the Bible. The martyrdom of first century Christians as the bore testimony of Christ is supported by a very large number of Scriptures. You ignore all of them, and this means that you are not "harmonizing" Revelation with the rest of the Bible.

Do you now understand why the first century martyrdoms fit perfectly with the words of the 5th seal?

All the very best to you my friend,

Richard

[Battyus]

Hey Richard,

Her we go: define "define" :)


Where does the Bible define the 7 seals as 7 judgments?

How would you characterize the 7 Seals, if they are not judgments?

Have a blessed night,
Battyus

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hey Richard,

Her we go: define "define" :)


Where does the Bible define the 7 seals as 7 judgments?How would you characterize the 7 Seals, if they are not judgments?

Have a blessed night,
Battyus
Hey ho bro!

I just call them the "Seven Seals" because that is what the Bible calls them. I don't invent loaded terminology that the Bible does not use because that leads to all kinds of errors. Case in point, you used your idea that the 5th Seal was a "judgment" to conclude that the martyrs in white robes (righteous acts) under the altar (holy place) in heaven were killed because of a judgment of God against them! I explained why this was an error in the previous post. I would be very interested if you would like to address the evidence I presented that proves the martyrs were not being judged by God.

All the best!

Richard

[Battyus]

good morning Richard,


Hey ho bro!

I just call them the "Seven Seals" because that is what the Bible calls them. I don't invent loaded terminology that the Bible does not use because that leads to all kinds of errors.

I don't think that it is a loaded terminology to call the Seals as judgments, since all their characteristics describe judgments from God.

The point is not how we call the 7 Seals, the point is what is happening when they are opened.



Case in point, you used your idea that the 5th Seal was a "judgment" to conclude that the martyrs in white robes (righteous acts) under the altar (holy place) in heaven were killed because of a judgment of God against them! I explained why this was an error in the previous post. I would be very interested if you would like to address the evidence I presented that proves the martyrs were not being judged by God.

I saw in your previous post that you misunderstood what I wrote in http://biblewheel.com/forum/showpost.php?p=18246&postcount=55

You said in that post:

"Martyrdom was not a "judgment" upon Christians! Where did you ever get that idea?"
And I replied to show how your statements amount to that idea. It is not my idea that the Martyrdom was a judgment on Christians. I say exactly the opposite!

Please go back to Post 55 and see, where I say : "-According to you in http://biblewheel.com/forum/showpost...3&postcount=48, the 5th Seal was fulfilled before AD70 when Christians were killed (martyred):"

I've used that line of reasoning to show that if you say, that the Martyrdom of Christians before AD70 was the fulfillment of the 5th Seal, then their Martyrdom is part of the Seal "judgments" (however you want to call them - One thing is for sure, the Seals are not blessings from God.)

So, to make sure we are on the same page:
I agree with you that the "Martyrdom was not a "judgment" upon Christians". But when you say that the killings of the Christians before AD70 IS the fulfillment of the 5th Seal, I think you imply exactly that.

And this is what I'm disputing, since the killing of the Christians has never stopped, therefore I don't think we can call it a "fulfilled" act. As a matter of fact, none of the Seals have ever stopped happening if you say that they were fulfilled before AD70:
1Seal: False Christs - We have more false Christs than ever.
2Seal: Wars - There was never complete peace on earth and the wars are just increasing in number and scope
3Seal: Famine - Today 8000 children will die from this. And tomorrow another 8000 - This is terrible!
4Seal: Death - Every war that humanity fights produces more and more death.
5Seal: Martyrdom - Think about all the Christians dying every year from persecutions.

Preterists say the whole prophecy was completed in AD70, so I think this would mean just as you say that the Seals were fulfilled Before AD70 too. If they were fulfilled, then how come, they are still happening?

The only explanation for that is that they were never opened in the 1st Century!

Many blessings,
Battyus

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I don't think that it is a loaded terminology to call the Seals as judgments, since all their characteristics describe judgments from God.

It is extremely loaded and misleading terminology because you used it to assert that martyrs who died for Christ in the 5th Seal were being judged by God in direct contradiction to what the text of the 5th Seal actually states.



The point is not how we call the 7 Seals, the point is what is happening when they are opened.

And what happens when the 5th Seal is opened? It describes the martyrs who died bearing witness to Christ and God's Word.

Please explain how martyrdom of God's Saints is a "judgment" upon the martyrs.

Who is being judged when the martyrs are killed?




You said in that post:

"Martyrdom was not a "judgment" upon Christians! Where did you ever get that idea?"
And I replied to show how your statements amount to that idea. It is not my idea that the Martyrdom was a judgment on Christians. I say exactly the opposite!

Please go back to Post 55 and see, where I say : "-According to you in http://biblewheel.com/forum/showpost...3&postcount=48, the 5th Seal was fulfilled before AD70 when Christians were killed (martyred):"

I've used that line of reasoning to show that if you say, that the Martyrdom of Christians before AD70 was the fulfillment of the 5th Seal, then their Martyrdom is part of the Seal "judgments" (however you want to call them - One thing is for sure, the Seals are not blessings from God.)

Your comments are a mass of confusion. You introduced the idea that martyrdom was a judgment on Christians. It was never my idea. It was you - BATTYUS - who introduced that idea when you asked this question in Post #53 (http://biblewheel.com/forum/showpost.php?p=18213&postcount=53):
Why would God continuously judge Christians with Martyrdom in the new age?
It doesn't get much clearer than that. The idea that Martyrdom was a judgment on the martyrs (whoever they may be) was your idea! I then tried to help you see the absurdity of this assertion by asking "Was Stephen being 'judged' by God when the Jews killed him for his testimony of Christ?" And you answered by reasserting that the 5th Seal is a judgment on the martyrs! Here is what you wrote:
You said, that Stephen's killing was part of the 5th Seal Judgement (see above).

If you stay by your sentence, that Stephen's killing was part of the 5th Seal judgement, then according to you, Yes God was judging Stephen.

If you say, that Stephen's killing was not part of the 5th Seal, then you lost your argument that the persecution of the 1st Century Christians is the fulfillment of Luk 21:12 in the Olivet Discourse.

Please select one and let me know. :winking0071:
Your argument is exceedingly fallacious. I never said that the 5th Seal was a "judgment" on Christians or anyone else. That was your idea! You are the one who defined the Seals as Judgments and then went on to use that loaded term to draw false conclusions. Therefore, your assertion that "according to you, Yes God was judging Stephen" is ludicrous. YOU ERRONEOUSLY ASSUMED that the 5th Seal was a judgment on the martyrs and then tried to get me caught up in an utterly illogical "logical dilemma" based on that absurd assumption.

We need to clear up this confusion before the conversation can make any progress. Please answer these two questions:

1) Do you still assert that the 5th Seal is a judgment by God on the martyrs who were killed for their testimony of Christ?

2) If not, then do you admit that Stephen was a martyr, and that his death matches the description in the 5th Seal?

Thanks,

Richard

[Rose]

And this is what I'm disputing, since the killing of the Christians has never stopped, therefore I don't think we can call it a "fulfilled" act. As a matter of fact, none of the Seals have ever stopped happening if you say that they were fulfilled before AD70:
1Seal: False Christs - We have more false Christs than ever.
2Seal: Wars - There was never complete peace on earth and the wars are just increasing in number and scope
3Seal: Famine - Today 8000 children will die from this. And tomorrow another 8000 - This is terrible!
4Seal: Death - Every war that humanity fights produces more and more death.
5Seal: Martyrdom - Think about all the Christians dying every year from persecutions.

Preterists say the whole prophecy was completed in AD70, so I think this would mean just as you say that the Seals were fulfilled Before AD70 too. If they were fulfilled, then how come, they are still happening?

The only explanation for that is that they were never opened in the 1st Century!

Many blessings,
Battyus

Hi Battyus,

It seems from your post, that your understanding of why Preterists say the whole prophecy of the Olivet Discourse was fulfilled is not clear. You assert that since Christians are still being martyred the 5th Seal has not yet been fulfilled, but that is missing the meaning of what the 5th Seal is all about.

The martyred souls under the altar in the 5th Seal are those whose blood is being avenged. Jesus speaks to His generation as being the ones who will fill up the measure of their fathers sins (that is their continuing to kill God's prophets). When this measure is full (ending in AD70) then judgment will be poured out on Jerusalem leaving it desolate.
.
Matt.23:31-38 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth (land of Israel), from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
.
The souls under the altar in the 5th seal are those prophets of God who were killed at the hands of the wicked generation Jesus was speaking to...the ones who would fill up the measure of their fathers. These souls under the altar are told that the measure is not yet filled and they still must wait a short while before their blood will be avenged on those (children of the fathers [Jews]) who dwell in Jerusalem.
.
Rev.6:9-10 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth (land of Israel)?


.
Revelation 18 then tells us that in Jerusalem was found all the shed blood of God's servants, thus filling up the measure of sin. Now judgment could be poured out, and their blood avenged. All of this happened upon the 1st century generation that Jesus spoke His words of judgment to.
.
Rev.18:24 And in her (Jerusalem) was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth (land of Israel).

Rev.19:2For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
.

The killing of Christian martyrs that continues on until this day has nothing to do with what was decreed in the 5th Seal. That was the fulfillment of a judgment spoken by Jesus upon His 1st century generation....the ones who filled up the measure of their fathers.


God Bless,

Rose

[Battyus]

Hey Richard,



We need to clear up this confusion before the conversation can make any progress. Please answer these two questions:

1) Do you still assert that the 5th Seal is a judgment by God on the martyrs who were killed for their testimony of Christ?
No, and I never did.



2) If not, then do you admit that Stephen was a martyr, and that his death matches the description in the 5th Seal?
I agree that Stephen was a martyr - no doubt.
I state that his death has nothing to do with the 5th Seal, as the Seals will be opened in the future, not in before AD70.

Many blessings,
Battyus

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hey Richard,


1) Do you still assert that the 5th Seal is a judgment by God on the martyrs who were killed for their testimony of Christ?No, and I never did.

We disagree on the history of your assertion, but that is doesn't matter. I am glad that we now agree that the 5th Seal does not represent a judgment on the martyrs.



I agree that Stephen was a martyr - no doubt.
I state that his death has nothing to do with the 5th Seal, as the Seals will be opened in the future, not in before AD70.

Many blessings,
Battyus
Excellent. Now we can see that your "dilemma" is an invalid argument. You wrote (I added red text to indicate the two horns):


You said, that Stephen's killing was part of the 5th Seal Judgement (see above).

HORN 1: If you stay by your sentence, that Stephen's killing was part of the 5th Seal judgement, then according to you, Yes God was judging Stephen.

HORN 2: If you say, that Stephen's killing was not part of the 5th Seal, then you lost your argument that the persecution of the 1st Century Christians is the fulfillment of Luk 21:12 in the Olivet Discourse.

Please select one and let me know. :winking0071:

Obviously, you now deny HORN 1 since you now agree with my original assertion that the 5th Seal was not a judgment on the martyrs.

You can not have a "dilemma" with only one horn. So do you now agree that your dilemma is an invalid argument?

And as an aside, I feel a need to repeat the fact that I never said that "Stephen's killing was part of the 5th Seal Judgement." So there really were two fundamental errors in your one little dilemma.

Thanks,

Richard

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hey Richard,

1) Do you still assert that the 5th Seal is a judgment by God on the martyrs who were killed for their testimony of Christ?
No, and I never did.

I don't like flogging a dead horse, but I feel a need to settle this issue. In Post 53 you wrote:
Why would God continuously judge Christians with Martyrdom in the new age?
Please explain what you meant by this sentence if you did not believe that the 5th Seal is a judgment by God on the martyrs who were killed for their testimony of Christ.

Thanks,

Richard

[Battyus]

Hey Richard,


I don't like flogging a dead horse, but I feel a need to settle this issue. In Post 53 you wrote:
Why would God continuously judge Christians with Martyrdom in the new age?
Please explain what you meant by this sentence if you did not believe that the 5th Seal is a judgment by God on the martyrs who were killed for their testimony of Christ.

Please take a look at the whole paragraph as it was in Post 53, I quote:
"In my opinion if the 5th Seal would have meant to be opened in the 1st Century as a judgement from God, then the martyrdom would only make sense to stop in AD70, when the "age" reached its end according to the Preterist view. Why would God continuously judge Christians with Martyrdom in the new age?"

It was not my idea, I was only explaining why I could not agree with your idea of the Seals being opened in the 1st Century. Please see the "if the seal would..." part.

Blessings,
Battyus

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hey Richard,

Please take a look at the whole paragraph as it was in Post 53, I quote:
"In my opinion if the 5th Seal would have meant to be opened in the 1st Century as a judgement from God, then the martyrdom would only make sense to stop in AD70, when the "age" reached its end according to the Preterist view. Why would God continuously judge Christians with Martyrdom in the new age?"

It was not my idea, I was only explaining why I could not agree with your idea of the Seals being opened in the 1st Century. Please see the "if the seal would..." part.

Blessings,
Battyus
I think you are putting the emphasis on the wrong part. I never suggested that the 5th Seal was a judgment from God in anything I ever wrote. You introduced this idea when you said:
"In my opinion if the 5th Seal would have meant to be opened in the 1st Century as a judgement from God, then the martyrdom would only make sense to stop in AD70, when the "age" reached its end according to the Preterist view. Why would God continuously judge Christians with Martyrdom in the new age?"
See that? Your question implicitly asserts that the 5th Seal is a judgment from God upon the martyrs. That's why I responded by saying:
Martyrdom was not a "judgment" upon Christians! Where did you ever get that idea?
And then you justified your assertion by saying:
How would you characterize the 7 Seals, if they are not judgments?
So as you can see, you introduced the idea of the 5th seals as a "judgment upon martyrs" into this conversation. And to top it off, you confirmed your assertion with these words:
If you stay by your sentence, that Stephen's killing was part of the 5th Seal judgement, then according to you, Yes God was judging Stephen.
To be perfectly clear we need only separate the elements of your syllogism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syllogism):


Major Premise: The killing of the martyrs of the 5th Seal was a judgment by God (You implied this premise)
Minor Premise: Stephen's killing was part of the 5th Seal (I explicitly stated this premise)
Conclusion: God was judging Stephen. (This is the conclusion you said the two premises implied)

Your syllogism was based on the Major Premise that "The killing of the martyrs of the 5th Seal was a judgment by God." This was your primary assertion! Why do you deny it?

Are you able to explain your syllogism without that major premise? Since I never said that the 5th Seal was a judgment upon the martyrs, how could my statement that Stephen's martyrdom was a fulfillment of the 5th Seal imply that God was judging Stephen?

Richard