Was Christ at the door in the first century?

[TheForgiven]

My Futurist's friends will insist that we are living in the last days. Almost 30 years ago, a false teacher released a public statement in Augusta Ga that Jesus was standing at the door, and that the end times was upon us.

I'd like my Futurist counter-parts to explain the Apostles James. In his letter, he writes to the scattered 12 Tribes of Israel, and explains to them that their retched lives were about to come to judgment because of their wealth, greed, and cruel heart.


James 5
1 ¶ Come now, rich ones, weep and howl for your hardships coming on.
2 Your riches have rotted, and your clothes have become moth-eaten.
3 Your gold and silver have corroded, and their poison will be a witness against you, and will eat your flesh as fire. You heaped treasure in the last days.
4 Behold, the hire of the laborers reaping your fields cry out, being kept back by you. And the cries of those who have reaped have entered into the ears of the Lord of hosts.
5 You have lived luxuriously on the earth, and lived wantonly. You have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.
6 You have condemned and murdered the just; he does not resist you.
7 Therefore be patient, brothers, until the coming of the Lord. Behold, the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth and has long patience for it, until he receives the early and the latter rain.
8 You also be patient, establish your hearts, for the coming of your Lord draws near.
9 Do not grudge against one another, brothers, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge stands before the door.

If Jesus was "at the door" then and His judgment was near, then how could Christ still be at the door today?

Now in truth, Preterist teach that the reigning Christ judges each generation, from one nation to the next. But what was James talking about? Verse 7-8 states that the coming of the Lord was near.

Was He near? Or was that just an example of God's unknown time, as the Futurist's would insist?

I say NO! Jesus was at the door in the first century, and His judgment was about to unfold. James, Peter, Paul, John (all of them) knew that He was near because of the signs they witnessed.

Which Futurist wants to go down in history (along with the rest) as the ones who claimed they got it all wrong in the first century?

:winking0071:

Joe

Brother Richard? Is it possible to correct the Thread Title? Can you change "What" to "Was"?

[Richard Amiel McGough]

My Futurist's friends will insist that we are living in the last days. Almost 30 years ago, a false teacher released a public statement in Augusta Ga that Jesus was standing at the door, and that the end times was upon us.

I'd like my Futurist counter-parts to explain the Apostles James. In his letter, he writes to the scattered 12 Tribes of Israel, and explains to them that their retched lives were about to come to judgment because of their wealth, greed, and cruel heart.



James 5
1 ¶ Come now, rich ones, weep and howl for your hardships coming on.
2 Your riches have rotted, and your clothes have become moth-eaten.
3 Your gold and silver have corroded, and their poison will be a witness against you, and will eat your flesh as fire. You heaped treasure in the last days.
4 Behold, the hire of the laborers reaping your fields cry out, being kept back by you. And the cries of those who have reaped have entered into the ears of the Lord of hosts.
5 You have lived luxuriously on the earth, and lived wantonly. You have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.
6 You have condemned and murdered the just; he does not resist you.
7 Therefore be patient, brothers, until the coming of the Lord. Behold, the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth and has long patience for it, until he receives the early and the latter rain.
8 You also be patient, establish your hearts, for the coming of your Lord draws near.
9 Do not grudge against one another, brothers, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge stands before the door.


If Jesus was "at the door" then and His judgment was near, then how could Christ still be at the door today?

Now in truth, Preterist teach that the reigning Christ judges each generation, from one nation to the next. But what was James talking about? Verse 7-8 states that the coming of the Lord was near.

Was He near? Or was that just an example of God's unknown time, as the Futurist's would insist?

I say NO! Jesus was at the door in the first century, and His judgment was about to unfold. James, Peter, Paul, John (all of them) knew that He was near because of the signs they witnessed.

Which Futurist wants to go down in history (along with the rest) as the ones who claimed they got it all wrong in the first century?

:winking0071:

Joe

Brother Richard? Is it possible to correct the Thread Title? Can you change "What" to "Was"?
Hey ho brother Joe!

You have touched upon an exceedingly important question. The simple truth is that all futurists use exactly the same language as the Bible to communicate the idea that Jesus really is "at the door" and "coming soon" for the "time is at hand" NOW, in our "generation." The mystery is why they think those time words mean what the mean now, but not when they were originally written.

Richard

[TheForgiven]

Well stated. :thumb:

How could the Apostles interpret the signs of their time, but be so different from the so called "signs" of our day? There are no signs in our day.

What war is taking place? What major events are indicating that the Lord's return is near?

I'm quite confident that if Futurist's lived in the first century, they would be flipping out of their gills in full expectation of a first century fulfillment/Parasiouia. But because they were not there in the first century, they have to look to CNN Headline news, and the Hal Lindsey report to find modern day signs in order to support their theories.

I know most of them have a loving relationship with Christ; that is not the question. But with rubbish ideas as the chip-implant, a 3rd temple, and a Hollywood depicted Anti-Christ (Left Behind), I'd say the so called signs of today are nothing more than mans imagination designed to stir up the nerves.

I remember when Desert Storm first kicked off in 1991, Dooms day prophets flooded the markets with "it's the end!" and "the rapture could happen at any moment now!". I wish they would give it rest. But then, we'd have nobody to debate these things, now would we? :lol:

I do enjoy our discussions with them....especially on the Biblewheel.

Joe

[Edward Goodie]

Everyone knows Jesus was not at the door back in the first century! In fact, the door hadn't even been made...not to mention the kind of locks that still needed to be invented along with the Cobra attack helicopters and infra-red laser implants or computer microchips.

Why wasn't Jesus at the door back in the first century? Simple. James made a blunder and inspiration doesn't mean a thing!

Besides, don't you realize that all these time statements you say apply to the first century don't even start until Israel is put back into the land. I mean, if the Brits and United Nations conspired together to put all these alleged "Jews" back into the land without the Arab permission, then it must be of God, right? Who cares if God wasn't supposed to deal with Israel in ANY fashion until the rapture - the whisking away of Christians from off this planet - was completed. I guess God blundered too and is wayyyy ahead of schedule. His memory must not be working up to par. I guess He is not all-powerful as we first thought...

The apostles??? Nothing but blithering idiots when it concerned the understanding the time of the end - despite having the Holy Spirit who's special ministry it was to show them "things to come."

Futurists have all the time in the world...and only they know when - despite every single prediction they have ever uttered has failed. They just don't get it!

[TheForgiven]

Everyone knows Jesus was not at the door back in the first century! In fact, the door hadn't even been made...not to mention the kind of locks that still needed to be invented along with the Cobra attack helicopters and infra-red laser implants or computer microchips.

Why wasn't Jesus at the door back in the first century? Simple. James made a blunder and inspiration doesn't mean a thing!

Besides, don't you realize that all these time statements you say apply to the first century don't even start until Israel is put back into the land. I mean, if the Brits and United Nations conspired together to put all these alleged "Jews" back into the land without the Arab permission, then it must be of God, right? Who cares if God wasn't supposed to deal with Israel in ANY fashion until the rapture - the whisking away of Christians from off this planet - was completed. I guess God blundered too and is wayyyy ahead of schedule. His memory must not be working up to par. I guess He is not all-powerful as we first thought...

The apostles??? Nothing but blithering idiots when it concerned the understanding the time of the end - despite having the Holy Spirit who's special ministry it was to show them "things to come."

Futurists have all the time in the world...and only they know when - despite every single prediction they have ever uttered has failed. They just don't get it!

Greetings brother TruthSeeker.

For a moment, I thought you were serious and then I realized you were merely being funny. Only, I'd tone it down a bit my brother. We don't agree with their failed eschatology, any less than we know not to believe the failed predictions; which unfortunately still continue today.

I admire your passion, and your point was well made. But let's try to keep things in a polite level. :lol: I consider us lucky to have the few Futurist's who are here, and I don't want them to be chased away.

The difference between our beloved forum as opposed to most Futurist forums is that we try to keep the peace, and not insult anyone. I know you weren't aiming your post any anyone on this forum in particular. But I'm certain Cheow or others may take offense.

So remember, keep it peaceful, loving, and godly. We are all beloved here.

I hope you don't take this as a rebuke my brother. :talk040: And let us enjoy our discussions.

Now while you're at it, I agree that most of the Dispensational group are known to be quite wrong in their beliefs, and I share in your detest with the illogic that continues to plague the Church.

Now that the group hugs have commenced, let us continue on with this discussion.

Joe

[CWH]

Looks like Jesus is always at the door awaiting people to open the door to let him in. Is there someone who haven't open the door to let Him come into your heart yet?

Standing at the door means the Lord is waiting. If the door is forever closed, He will not be able to enter in. This is how I interpret "standing at the door". If Jesus is at the door why didn't He came in? This is what Jesus said and that defines the meaning of "standing at the door" which did not mean He is near:

Revelation 3:20Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.

He was still standing at the door in AD 70 awaiting to come in at the appropriate time. That's why there was no record of anyone seeing Jesus came back in AD 70. If He is physically at the door, I would expect Him to be physically present when I open the door and I would expect Him to physically come in. If He come in spiritually, I will not be able to see Him coming through the door because physical beings cannot see spiritual beings.

Hope this is not too profound. :D

Many Blessings.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Looks like Jesus is always at the door awaiting people to open the door to let him in. Is there someone who haven't open the door to let Him come into your heart yet?

Standing at the door means the Lord is waiting. If the door is forever closed, He will not be able to enter in. This is how I interpret "standing at the door". If Jesus is at the door why didn't He came in? This is what Jesus said and that defines the meaning of "standing at the door" which did not mean He is near:

Revelation 3:20Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.

He was still standing at the door in AD 70 awaiting to come in at the appropriate time. That's why there was no record of anyone seeing Jesus came back in AD 70. If He is physically at the door, I would expect Him to be physically present when I open the door and I would expect Him to physically come in. If He come in spiritually, I will not be able to see Him coming through the door because physical beings cannot see spiritual beings.

Hope this is not too profound. :D

Many Blessings.
Hi Cheow,

I agree that being "at the door" can mean "waiting for the person inside to open" as it does in Rev 3:20. But we must not forget that context determines meaning. If the police were "at my door" after I had just robbed a bank, I would not expect them to politely knock and wait before I let them in. On the contrary, they would instantly break down that door and arrest me! This is the meaning of used by James:
James 5:8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. 9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.
James connected two facts here. 1) The coming of the Lord "draweth nigh" and 2) the Judge (Christ) "standeth at the door." There is no indication that the Judge would continue to just stand there. On the contrary, the text itself says his coming (through the door) was near, back then, in the first century.

The word translated as "draweth nigh" is hengiken. Christ used this word to describe his arrest just before it happened:
Matthew 26:45 Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: behold, the hour is at hand (hengiken), and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.
In this context, hengiken meant "within a few hours." In other contexts, it could mean "within in few years." There is no context in which it could mean "within a few thousand years."

Now you also wrote: "If He is physically at the door, I would expect Him to be physically present when I open the door and I would expect Him to physically come in." I do not understand your statement at all. The Bible was not talking about a physical door. Do you not understand that it is a metaphorical door? Elsewhere in Scripture Jesus is called a Door. Does he have hinges and a knob?

Many blessings to you my good friend,

Richard

[CWH]

There are several ways of interpreting "standing at the door":
1. waiting to come in
2. waiting for someone to open the door
3. Christianity is at the door
4. The kingdom of God is at the door
5. Jesus is nearby

Agree, it depends on context.

Jesus always appeared to his apostles in his physical form because physical beings cannot see spirits. If Jesus appeared to His apostles always in His physical form, why would Jesus want to come in AD 70 in His spiritual form. Which physical beings would be able to see him then? How then can every eye see Him coming?

Many Blessings.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

There are several ways of interpreting "standing at the door":
1. waiting to come in
2. waiting for someone to open the door
3. Christianity is at the door
4. The kingdom of God is at the door
5. Jesus is nearby

Agree, it depends on context.

Exactly correct! But you have not replied to the context that we find in James 4:5 that I explained in my previous post. What is the meaning of "standing at the door" in that context?



Jesus always appeared to his apostles in his physical form because physical beings cannot see spirits. If Jesus appeared to His apostles always in His physical form, why would Jesus want to come in AD 70 in His spiritual form. Which physical beings would be able to see him then? How then can every eye see Him coming?

Many Blessings.
To understand what "every eye will see" means we need only ask "what will every eye see?" The answer is "Christ coming on clouds." And what does that mean? IS Jesus a "Rodeo Cloud Rider" physically seen up in the sky??? Do you really believe this? Do you really think that is what Jesus meant? Every single person on the planet would see a physical body up in the sky "coming in clouds?"

Did YHVH in the OT literally and physically "ride the clouds" so that people could see his physical form? (Isaiah 19:1) Did David see literal "smoke coming out his nostrils?" (Psalm 18:8) Does God have wings and feathers? (Psalm 91:4) Do you understand the metaphorical language of the Bible?

Many blessings,

Richard

[Edward Goodie]

Greetings brother TruthSeeker.

For a moment, I thought you were serious and then I realized you were merely being funny. Only, I'd tone it down a bit my brother. We don't agree with their failed eschatology, any less than we know not to believe the failed predictions; which unfortunately still continue today.

I admire your passion, and your point was well made. But let's try to keep things in a polite level. :lol: I consider us lucky to have the few Futurist's who are here, and I don't want them to be chased away.

The difference between our beloved forum as opposed to most Futurist forums is that we try to keep the peace, and not insult anyone. I know you weren't aiming your post any anyone on this forum in particular. But I'm certain Cheow or others may take offense.

So remember, keep it peaceful, loving, and godly. We are all beloved here.

I hope you don't take this as a rebuke my brother. :talk040: And let us enjoy our discussions.

Now while you're at it, I agree that most of the Dispensational group are known to be quite wrong in their beliefs, and I share in your detest with the illogic that continues to plague the Church.

Now that the group hugs have commenced, let us continue on with this discussion.

Joe

Okay! Point taken... :hug:

I guess my sarcastic humor got the best of me. I am going to start a new thread (probably just a review for many) and ask what our non-preterists friends think about the context. I will call it "Romans 15:8-12."

I really hope Cheow Wee Hock will respond. I think it will be beneficial for both of us to see the varying understandings and the reasons why...

[CWH]

To understand what "every eye will see" means we need only ask "what will every eye see?" The answer is "Christ coming on clouds." And what does that mean? IS Jesus a "Rodeo Cloud Rider" physically seen up in the sky??? Do you really believe this? Do you really think that is what Jesus meant? Every single person on the planet would see a physical body up in the sky "coming in clouds?"

Did YHVH in the OT literally and physically "ride the clouds" so that people could see his physical form? (Isaiah 19:1) Did David see literal "smoke coming out his nostrils?" (Psalm 18:8) Does God have wings and feathers? (Psalm 91:4) Do you understand the metaphorical language of the Bible?

I can't see so metaphorically that you see. I believe these were what people in ancient days were describing divine technologies using the best vocabulary and understanding at that time to describe what they have seen. If you are living in the 1st century and you saw an airplane, how would you described it....silver bird, metal bird, flying thing etc.

I am not saying that God used airplane technologies but just an analogy into what people of ancient days would described modern day machines if they saw one. What divine technologies God used I do not know. Does the below modern day machines images below would be described by ancient people as flying/riding on a cloud and smoke from the nostrils?:

http://www.spacetoday.org/images/Rockets/ArianeRockets/Ariane5LaunchArianespace.jpg

http://comps.fotosearch.com/comp/FSA/FSA704/smoke-coming-exhaust_~x20514492.jpg


Many Blessings to you.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I can't see so metaphorically that you see.
So when Scripture says Jesus is the Door, it means he has hinges and knob?

When Scripture says Jesus is the Lamb of God, it means he has fleece and four hooves?



I believe these were what people in ancient days were describing divine technologies using the best vocabulary and understanding at that time to describe what they have seen. If you are living in the 1st century and you saw an airplane, how would you described it....silver bird, metal bird, flying thing etc.

Upon what do you base those beliefs? Is there anything in the Bible that says that it is "really" talking about technology that would be developed two thousand years later?

Where do you get these ideas? They certainly do not seem to come from the Bible.



I am not saying that God used airplane technologies but just an analogy into what people of ancient days would described modern day machines if they saw one. What divine technologies God used I do not know. Does the below modern day machines images below would be described by ancient people as flying/riding on a cloud and smoke from the nostrils?:

So the Bible is not really the Word of God? God did not inspire the actual words, just gave them images that were impossible to describe accurately?

Again, I must ask, where do you get these ideas? If you are correct, then the Bible was absolutely meaningless until the modern objects it describes were invented. Is this how we are supposed to understand Holy Scripture?

Many blessings,

Richard

[CWH]

Before I answer your questions, please answer how you would describe an airplane when you saw one if you are living in the ancient days in the 1st century.

In the modern world we know that God uses fusion energy to create energy for the sun and we are now trying to duplicate what God has done thousands of years ago. Would people of 2 thousand years ago or even 100 years ago understood how the sun got its energy? If God were to explain fusion energy to people 2,000 years ago, would they be able to understand? Knowledge is from God; what scientific knowledge and innovations that we have achieved are derived from the knowledge that God have given us since the time of Eve and Adsm. Proverbs said that God created the world using His understanding and wisdom and currently man are trying to achieve many things which God have done using the knowledge that God have given to human beings. We are now beginning to be like God; we are made in His image, remember?

Proverbs 3:19By wisdom the LORD laid the earth's foundations, by understanding he set the heavens in place;

Proverbs 24:3By wisdom a house is built, and through understanding it is established;

Many Blessings to you.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Before I answer your questions, please answer how you would describe an airplane when you saw one if you are living in the ancient days in the 1st century.

Before I answer that question, please tell me why anyone would think that God was talking about modern technology in the first place.

Tag! Your it! :p

[TheForgiven]

If Christ were at the door in the first century as St. James states, then is He still standing at the door to release His judgment?

James 5:

9 Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!

I'm wondering when he's going to enter through the door, and pass His judgment already....:confused:

Cheow? Care to answer this? :talk005:

Joe

[CWH]

If Christ were at the door in the first century as St. James states, then is He still standing at the door to release His judgment?

James 5:

9 Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!

I'm wondering when he's going to enter through the door, and pass His judgment already....:confused:

Cheow? Care to answer this? :talk005:

Joe

Hi Joe,

The Judge is standing at the door awaiting the souls to come in and accept Him as Lord and saviour. He is also the judge who will judged all souls for what they have done. I believe you will agree with me. The only difference that we have is when was the judgement done? in AD 70 or at the end of creation (end of the world without the earth being destroyed) during the Great White Throne. Why would God judged all souls in AD 70 only and those who died after AD 70 will go straight to heaven to be judged as believed by the preterists. Why must God practice double standards? Has Hades (the abode of the dead awaiting judgement) been abolished after AD 70?

Many Blessings.

[CWH]

There are several verses which "standing at the door" may not mean nearby. I believe these verses may be connected with the meaning of "standing at the door":

1. Matthew 7:7
[ Ask, Seek, Knock ] "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
Matthew 7:6-8 (in Context) Matthew 7 (Whole Chapter)
2. Matthew 7:8
For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
3. Luke 12:35"Be dressed ready for service and keep your lamps burning, 36like men waiting for their master to return from a wedding banquet, so that when he comes and knocks they can immediately open the door for him. 37It will be good for those servants whose master finds them watching when he comes. I tell you the truth, he will dress himself to serve, will have them recline at the table and will come and wait on them.
4. 1. Luke 13:24
He said to them, "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.
Luke 13:23-25 (in Context) Luke 13 (Whole Chapter)
5. Luke 13:25
Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.' "But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.'
6. Acts 14:27
On arriving there, they gathered the church together and reported all that God had done through them and how he had opened the door of faith to the Gentiles.
7. 2 Corinthians 2:12
[ Ministers of the New Covenant ] Now when I went to Troas to preach the gospel of Christ and found that the Lord had opened a door for me,
8. Colossians 4:3
And pray for us, too, that God may open a door for our message, so that we may proclaim the mystery of Christ, for which I am in chains.
9. Revelation 3:8
I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name.
10. Revelation 3:20
Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me

Hope this helps Joe and Truthseeker.

I seek everyone to open your door for the Lord, more so when he comes and knock on your door.

Many Blessings.

[Edward Goodie]

There are several verses which "standing at the door" may not mean nearby. I believe these verses may be connected with the meaning of "standing at the door":

1. Matthew 7:7
[ Ask, Seek, Knock ] "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
Matthew 7:6-8 (in Context) Matthew 7 (Whole Chapter)
2. Matthew 7:8
For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
3. Luke 12:35"Be dressed ready for service and keep your lamps burning, 36like men waiting for their master to return from a wedding banquet, so that when he comes and knocks they can immediately open the door for him. 37It will be good for those servants whose master finds them watching when he comes. I tell you the truth, he will dress himself to serve, will have them recline at the table and will come and wait on them.
4. 1. Luke 13:24
He said to them, "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.
Luke 13:23-25 (in Context) Luke 13 (Whole Chapter)
5. Luke 13:25
Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.' "But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.'
6. Acts 14:27
On arriving there, they gathered the church together and reported all that God had done through them and how he had opened the door of faith to the Gentiles.
7. 2 Corinthians 2:12
[ Ministers of the New Covenant ] Now when I went to Troas to preach the gospel of Christ and found that the Lord had opened a door for me,
8. Colossians 4:3
And pray for us, too, that God may open a door for our message, so that we may proclaim the mystery of Christ, for which I am in chains.
9. Revelation 3:8
I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name.
10. Revelation 3:20
Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me

Hope this helps Joe and Truthseeker.

I seek everyone to open your door for the Lord, more so when he comes and knock on your door.

Many Blessings.

I hope you realize that there is quite a difference between the future and past tense of the verses you quoted with "The judge standeth at door."

I hope you realize also that there is quite a difference with the "judge" aspect than that of the Gospel aspect. Some of your verses have nothing to do with Jesus Christ at all. You are comparing apples with Zebras...

"The judge standeth at door." Judgment aspect and nearness of the judgment.

You must be honest with yourself and realize that the verses you quoted have nothing to do with judgment...and that is the context in which we are approaching James...

If I was standing at your door, would I be near or far away?

[TheForgiven]

I hope you realize that there is quite a difference between the future and past tense of the verses you quoted with "The judge standeth at door."

I hope you realize also that there is quite a difference with the "judge" aspect than that of the Gospel aspect. Some of your verses have nothing to do with Jesus Christ at all. You are comparing apples with Zebras...

"The judge standeth at door." Judgment aspect and nearness of the judgment.

You must be honest with yourself and realize that the verses you quoted have nothing to do with judgment...and that is the context in which we are approaching James...

If I was standing at your door, would I be near or far away?

Greetings brother TruthSeeker. You bring up a very basic, yet good question. If I were standing at the door, I suppose in Biblical terminology, I'd be as near as one could imagine, but that'd could be several Millenniums. We're not supposed to take the words "near" literal; that's against the Futurist basic interpretation. Easy words must metaphoric, while symbolic words (parables) must be literal; unless of course the test doesn't permit a literal interpretation.

For example, when one sows seeds, they are sowing literal seeds, just as the mark that's stamped on everyone's head. :lol:

Joe

[CWH]

I hope you realize that there is quite a difference between the future and past tense of the verses you quoted with "The judge standeth at door."

I hope you realize also that there is quite a difference with the "judge" aspect than that of the Gospel aspect. Some of your verses have nothing to do with Jesus Christ at all. You are comparing apples with Zebras...

"The judge standeth at door." Judgment aspect and nearness of the judgment.

You must be honest with yourself and realize that the verses you quoted have nothing to do with judgment...and that is the context in which we are approaching James...

If I was standing at your door, would I be near or far away?

If you are standing at the door, you are near but it depends on whether I want to open the door to let you in. Haven't you heard of the phrase,"so near, yet so far".

James 5:9 Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!

Is grumbling against one another a sin? What has that to do with judging?
James was probably referring to the verse, "do not judge or you'll be judged", the Judge is standing at the door (God is omnipotent, God is ever-present) means the Judge is around and will judge whatever you are grumbling against each other.

Many Blessings.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

If you are standing at the door, you are near but it depends on whether I want to open the door to let you in. Haven't you heard of the phrase,"so near, yet so far".

James 5:9 Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!

Is grumbling against one another a sin? What has that to do with judging?
James was probably referring to the verse, "do not judge or you'll be judged", the Judge is standing at the door (God is omnipotent, God is ever-present) means the Judge is around and will judge whatever you are grumbling against each other.

Many Blessings.
Do you see any connection between the judge standing at the door and the statement that the coming of the Lord is near in the previous verse?


James 5:8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
James 5:9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

It seems the statement concerning the nearness of the coming of the Lord in the immediate context does not allow your "timeless" interpretation of the judge standing at the door.

Christ used similar language in the Olivet Discourse and linked the time statements of "near" and "at the doors" to the time statement of "this generation:"
Mark 13:29 So ye in like manner, when [time statement] ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh [ = soon to happen], even at the doors. 30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done [clear time statement].
Note particularly that the words "near" and "at the door" are found in both Mark and James. It seems we have an integrated complex of time statements that all say the say thing.

Richard

[Edward Goodie]

If you are standing at the door, you are near but it depends on whether I want to open the door to let you in. Haven't you heard of the phrase,"so near, yet so far".

James 5:9 Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!

Is grumbling against one another a sin? What has that to do with judging?
James was probably referring to the verse, "do not judge or you'll be judged", the Judge is standing at the door (God is omnipotent, God is ever-present) means the Judge is around and will judge whatever you are grumbling against each other.

Many Blessings.

If it truly "depends on whether I want to open the door" to receive judgment, then the door never gets opened by anyone, ever!!!

The responsibility of judgment rest solely upon the Lord Jesus Christ. To even think that it is our choice is unbelievably naive. There is a lot more stronger phrasing than that, I assure you.

John 5:22 - For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

John 5:26-27 - For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

The inspired James seems to think that "grumbling against each other" was worthy of condemnation, unless of course you believe "lest ye be condemned" means something entirely different???

Why would you even say "Is grumbling against one another a sin? What has that to do with judging?" I think you missed the point entirely. It is Jesus who was going to judge the hearts and actions of men. James is riddled with examples and were severely cautioned. Why? Because THE JUDGE was at the door. It has nothing to do with James or his audience "judging."

You are unable to understand what "at the door mean" because you have been inundated with the theory that Christ's coming is still future based upon an entirely different nature of "time of the end" events. Instead of comparing them to your present theological system, why don't you just take Scripture in its natural context.

There is a passage in Ezekiel which deals with those who believe near meant far. It is Ezekiel 12:17-13:23. It have included it below:

Ezekiel 12:17-13:23 – Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 18 Son of man, eat thy bread with quaking, and drink thy water with trembling and with carefulness; 19 And say unto the people of the land, Thus saith the Lord GOD of the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and of the land of Israel; They shall eat their bread with carefulness, and drink their water with astonishment, that her land may be desolate from all that is therein, because of the violence of all them that dwell therein 20 And the cities that are inhabited shall be laid waste, and the land shall be desolate; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. 21 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 22 Son of man, what is that proverb that ye have in the land of Israel, saying, The days are prolonged, and every vision faileth? 23 Tell them therefore, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will make this proverb to cease, and they shall no more use it as a proverb in Israel; but say unto them, The days are at hand, and the effect of every vision. 24 For there shall be no more any vain vision nor flattering divination within the house of Israel. 25 For I am the LORD: I will speak, and the word that I shall speak shall come to pass; it shall be no more prolonged: for in your days, O rebellious house, will I say the word, and will perform it, saith the Lord GOD. 26 Again the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 27 Son of man, behold, they of the house of Israel say, The vision that he seeth is for many days to come, and he prophesieth of the times that are far off. 28 Therefore say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; There shall none of my words be prolonged any more, but the word which I have spoken shall be done, saith the Lord GOD. Ezekiel 13:1 – And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 2 Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the LORD; 3 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing! 4 O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts. 5 Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD. 6 They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, The LORD saith: and the LORD hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word. 7 Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, The LORD saith it; albeit I have not spoken? 8 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye have spoken vanity, and seen lies, therefore, behold, I am against you, saith the Lord GOD. 9 And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD. 10 Because, even because they have seduced my people, saying, Peace; and there was no peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered morter: 11 Say unto them which daub it with untempered morter, that it shall fall: there shall be an overflowing shower; and ye, O great hailstones, shall fall; and a stormy wind shall rend it. 12 Lo, when the wall is fallen, shall it not be said unto you, Where is the daubing wherewith ye have daubed it? 13 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even rend it with a stormy wind in my fury; and there shall be an overflowing shower in mine anger, and great hailstones in my fury to consume it. 14 So will I break down the wall that ye have daubed with untempered morter, and bring it down to the ground, so that the foundation thereof shall be discovered, and it shall fall, and ye shall be consumed in the midst thereof: and ye shall know that I am the LORD. 15 Thus will I accomplish my wrath upon the wall, and upon them that have daubed it with untempered morter, and will say unto you, The wall is no more, neither they that daubed it; 16 To wit, the prophets of Israel which prophesy concerning Jerusalem, and which see visions of peace for her, and there is no peace, saith the Lord GOD. 17 Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them, 18 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you? 19 And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear your lies? 20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly. 21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. 22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life: 23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver my people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

[TheForgiven]

We all know the popular time-statements. It's been presumed by my counter-brethren that the time statements quotes by the Lord, and His chosen Apostles, were not literal time-statements, but unidentifiable measurements of time that could span anywhere from a simple minute, to several thousand years. Common sense has been removed from the scriptures because of the "creative eschatology" that seems to dominate the Dispensational movement, to also include the Historicist's, and the different times of Futurism which exists in our day, and in the days to come.

But let us examine two examples of these time statements, and see if the ability of my opponents have room to stand. Here's a passage from Paul:

Romans 13:

11 And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. 12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light. 13 Let us walk properly, as in the day, not in revelry and drunkenness, not in lewdness and lust, not in strife and envy. 14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.

Paul uses the metaphoric expressions of sleeping during the night, and awaking during the day. This metaphor was used to describe the dark times of their Age as it was coming to a close. The Kingdom was soon at hand, and light would soon overtake the darkness of the world as the Age came to a close. Thus Paul, recognizing the events of his day, knew that "salvation was nearer than when he originally believed. This would seem to suggest an eminent expectation of Christ's coming to deliver salvation, when He would judge the living AND the dead.

Futurist's will interpret phrases such as above, and force-fit any time-statement into an unmeasurable span of time. Naturally, this is an attempt to fit their favor in creative eschatology; the ability to alter interpretations to suite their expected events. I've noticed over the years that this is getting way out of hand, as now many of them are beginning to blame technology (or apply technology) as an attribute of the apocalypse; specifically with chip implants, remote controlled humans around the world, and this fictional one-world government.

Watch as I now show that their ideas of time-statements is easily proved false. From from the same Apostle, let us use another example of Paul's time statements:

2 Timothy 4:

6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.

Paul's day was at hand? Could Paul have been speaking metaphorically, using an unmeasurable amount of time? Paul wrote to Timothy knowing that his death was soon to come. Now soon may have been a few days, to even a few years. However, sense I do not have the data to prove when Paul died after this letter was delivered to Timothy, suffice it enough to show that this example of time-statements means the same in every time statement recorded in the New Testament.

So, my friends. Which Futurist's would like to explain the difference between the two time statements above? Both quotes use metaphor's (drink offering, day vs night, etc.) and both have an exact meaning. Which one of you will now say the differ.

While you're at it, here are a list of time-statements you need to explain. All of these prove that Christ was to come in the first century with Power and His Kingdom.

Matthew 3:2
and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!”

Matthew 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

Matthew 10:7
And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’

Matthew 26:18
And He said, “Go into the city to a certain man, and say to him, ‘The Teacher says, “My time is at hand; I will keep the Passover at your house with My disciples.”’”

Matthew 26:45
Then He came to His disciples and said to them, “Are you still sleeping and resting? Behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of sinners.

Matthew 26:46
Rise, let us be going. See, My betrayer is at hand.”

Mark 1:15
and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.”

Mark 14:42
Rise, let us be going. See, My betrayer is at hand.”

John 2:13
Now the Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.

John 7:2
Now the Jews’ Feast of Tabernacles was at hand.

Romans 13:12
The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light.

Philippians 4:5
Let your gentleness be known to all men. The Lord is at hand.

James 5:8
You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.


All of these are measurable time-statements. I find it ironic that the Futurist's are permitted to stretch time statements into oblivion. :nono: We know the reason they do this. It's their only solution to stretching the Parasouia of the Lord into any decade they choose. No doubt, Christians 200 years from now will still keep finding ways to stretch the New Testament Time Statements.

Here's a helpful tip my Futurist's friends. The next time you look at your clock, or watch, know that it's telling you the time. That's what they are designed for. When anyone in the scriptures speak of soon, at hand, etc, what's wrong with listening to what it's saying? I know it's an inconvenience to your eschatology, but that doesn't mean the text wrong; just your eschatology. After all my friends. What's more important to teach? God's word, or your eschatology?

Trust in God's word, and you will see.

The grace of God, and of Christ Jesus, be with us all.

Joe

[Edward Goodie]

We all know the popular time-statements. It's been presumed by my counter-brethren that the time statements quotes by the Lord, and His chosen Apostles, were not literal time-statements, but unidentifiable measurements of time that could span anywhere from a simple minute, to several thousand years. Common sense has been removed from the scriptures because of the "creative eschatology" that seems to dominate the Dispensational movement, to also include the Historicist's, and the different times of Futurism which exists in our day, and in the days to come.

But let us examine two examples of these time statements, and see if the ability of my opponents have room to stand. Here's a passage from Paul:

Romans 13:

11 And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. 12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light. 13 Let us walk properly, as in the day, not in revelry and drunkenness, not in lewdness and lust, not in strife and envy. 14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.

Paul uses the metaphoric expressions of sleeping during the night, and awaking during the day. This metaphor was used to describe the dark times of their Age as it was coming to a close. The Kingdom was soon at hand, and light would soon overtake the darkness of the world as the Age came to a close. Thus Paul, recognizing the events of his day, knew that "salvation was nearer than when he originally believed. This would seem to suggest an eminent expectation of Christ's coming to deliver salvation, when He would judge the living AND the dead.

Futurist's will interpret phrases such as above, and force-fit any time-statement into an unmeasurable span of time. Naturally, this is an attempt to fit their favor in creative eschatology; the ability to alter interpretations to suite their expected events. I've noticed over the years that this is getting way out of hand, as now many of them are beginning to blame technology (or apply technology) as an attribute of the apocalypse; specifically with chip implants, remote controlled humans around the world, and this fictional one-world government.

Watch as I now show that their ideas of time-statements is easily proved false. From from the same Apostle, let us use another example of Paul's time statements:

2 Timothy 4:

6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.

Paul's day was at hand? Could Paul have been speaking metaphorically, using an unmeasurable amount of time? Paul wrote to Timothy knowing that his death was soon to come. Now soon may have been a few days, to even a few years. However, sense I do not have the data to prove when Paul died after this letter was delivered to Timothy, suffice it enough to show that this example of time-statements means the same in every time statement recorded in the New Testament.

So, my friends. Which Futurist's would like to explain the difference between the two time statements above? Both quotes use metaphor's (drink offering, day vs night, etc.) and both have an exact meaning. Which one of you will now say the differ.

While you're at it, here are a list of time-statements you need to explain. All of these prove that Christ was to come in the first century with Power and His Kingdom.

Matthew 3:2
and saying, 'Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!'

Matthew 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, 'Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.'

Matthew 10:7
And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’

Matthew 26:18
And He said, 'Go into the city to a certain man, and say to him, ‘The Teacher says, 'My time is at hand; I will keep the Passover at your house with My disciples.'’'

Matthew 26:45
Then He came to His disciples and said to them, 'Are you still sleeping and resting? Behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of sinners.

Matthew 26:46
Rise, let us be going. See, My betrayer is at hand.'

Mark 1:15
and saying, 'The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.'

Mark 14:42
Rise, let us be going. See, My betrayer is at hand.'

John 2:13
Now the Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.

John 7:2
Now the Jews’ Feast of Tabernacles was at hand.

Romans 13:12
The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light.

Philippians 4:5
Let your gentleness be known to all men. The Lord is at hand.

James 5:8
You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.


All of these are measurable time-statements. I find it ironic that the Futurist's are permitted to stretch time statements into oblivion. :nono: We know the reason they do this. It's their only solution to stretching the Parasouia of the Lord into any decade they choose. No doubt, Christians 200 years from now will still keep finding ways to stretch the New Testament Time Statements.

Here's a helpful tip my Futurist's friends. The next time you look at your clock, or watch, know that it's telling you the time. That's what they are designed for. When anyone in the scriptures speak of soon, at hand, etc, what's wrong with listening to what it's saying? I know it's an inconvenience to your eschatology, but that doesn't mean the text wrong; just your eschatology. After all my friends. What's more important to teach? God's word, or your eschatology?

Trust in God's word, and you will see.

The grace of God, and of Christ Jesus, be with us all.

Joe

And with just a tad bit of humor (albeit truth)...

:Date_Setting:

[Richard Amiel McGough]

And with just a tad bit of humor (albeit truth)...

:Date_Setting:
I'm gonna need my own crystal ball to discern the meaning of your message ...

[CWH]

I know preterists will throw stones at me. Note my interpretations in red and I don't always follow typical futurist's interpretations:


We all know the popular time-statements. It's been presumed by my counter-brethren that the time statements quotes by the Lord, and His chosen Apostles, were not literal time-statements, but unidentifiable measurements of time that could span anywhere from a simple minute, to several thousand years. Common sense has been removed from the scriptures because of the "creative eschatology" that seems to dominate the Dispensational movement, to also include the Historicist's, and the different times of Futurism which exists in our day, and in the days to come.

But let us examine two examples of these time statements, and see if the ability of my opponents have room to stand. Here's a passage from Paul:

Romans 13:

11 And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. 12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light. 13 Let us walk properly, as in the day, not in revelry and drunkenness, not in lewdness and lust, not in strife and envy. 14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.

Paul uses the metaphoric expressions of sleeping during the night, and awaking during the day. This metaphor was used to describe the dark times of their Age as it was coming to a close. The Kingdom was soon at hand, and light would soon overtake the darkness of the world as the Age came to a close. Thus Paul, recognizing the events of his day, knew that "salvation was nearer than when he originally believed. This would seem to suggest an eminent expectation of Christ's coming to deliver salvation, when He would judge the living AND the dead. Paul means that evil has been overcome with the death of Christ on the cross.

Futurist's will interpret phrases such as above, and force-fit any time-statement into an unmeasurable span of time. Naturally, this is an attempt to fit their favor in creative eschatology; the ability to alter interpretations to suite their expected events. I've noticed over the years that this is getting way out of hand, as now many of them are beginning to blame technology (or apply technology) as an attribute of the apocalypse; specifically with chip implants, remote controlled humans around the world, and this fictional one-world government.

Watch as I now show that their ideas of time-statements is easily proved false. From from the same Apostle, let us use another example of Paul's time statements:

2 Timothy 4:

6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing. Paul was talking of his coming eminent death after fighting a good fight to finished the race.

Paul's day was at hand? Could Paul have been speaking metaphorically, using an unmeasurable amount of time? Paul wrote to Timothy knowing that his death was soon to come. Now soon may have been a few days, to even a few years. However, sense I do not have the data to prove when Paul died after this letter was delivered to Timothy, suffice it enough to show that this example of time-statements means the same in every time statement recorded in the New Testament.

So, my friends. Which Futurist's would like to explain the difference between the two time statements above? Both quotes use metaphor's (drink offering, day vs night, etc.) and both have an exact meaning. Which one of you will now say the differ.

While you're at it, here are a list of time-statements you need to explain. All of these prove that Christ was to come in the first century with Power and His Kingdom.

Matthew 3:2
and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!
Note that the kingdom of heaven is at hand means the kingdom of the Christians or Christianity is coming with the death of Christ on the cross.

Matthew 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
Note that the kingdom of heaven is at hand means the kingdom of the Christians or Christianity is coming with the death of Christ on the cross. Repent.

Matthew 10:7
And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’
Note that the kingdom of heaven is at hand means the kingdom of the Christians or Christianity is coming with the death of Christ on the cross.


Matthew 26:18
And He said, “Go into the city to a certain man, and say to him, ‘The Teacher says, “My time is at hand; I will keep the Passover at your house with My disciples.”’”
Means Jesus death is coming soon.

Matthew 26:45
Then He came to His disciples and said to them, “Are you still sleeping and resting? Behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of sinners.
The betrayal of Jesus is soon.

Matthew 26:46
Rise, let us be going. See, My betrayer is at hand."
COLOR="DarkRed"]The betrayal of Jesus is soon.

Mark 1:15
and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.”
Note that the kingdom of heaven is at hand means the kingdom of the Christians or Christianity is coming with the death of Christ on the cross.

Mark 14:42
Rise, let us be going. See, My betrayer is at hand.”
COLOR="DarkRed"]The betrayal of Jesus is soon.[/COLOR]

John 2:13
Now the Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.
The Passover is coming soon.

John 7:2
Now the Jews’ Feast of Tabernacles was at hand.
The Feast of Tabernacle is coming soon.

Romans 13:12
The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light.
Means evil has been overcome with the death of Christ on the cross and goodness will prevails with the official launch of Christianity into the world in AD 70 with the destruction of the Temple.

Philippians 4:5
Let your gentleness be known to all men. The Lord is at hand.
Means that God is omnipresence; He is always around till the end of age.

James 5:8
You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.[/COLOR]
Means that God is omnipresence; He is always around till the end of age. In fact, the Lord came many times after his resurrection. The coming of the Lord may mean also the coming of kingdom of heaven with the Lord as King over the Christians/ Christendom.

All of these are measurable time-statements. I find it ironic that the Futurist's are permitted to stretch time statements into oblivion. :nono: We know the reason they do this. It's their only solution to stretching the Parasouia of the Lord into any decade they choose. No doubt, Christians 200 years from now will still keep finding ways to stretch the New Testament Time Statements.

Here's a helpful tip my Futurist's friends. The next time you look at your clock, or watch, know that it's telling you the time. That's what they are designed for. When anyone in the scriptures speak of soon, at hand, etc, what's wrong with listening to what it's saying? I know it's an inconvenience to your eschatology, but that doesn't mean the text wrong; just your eschatology. After all my friends. What's more important to teach? God's word, or your eschatology?

Trust in God's word, and you will see.

The grace of God, and of Christ Jesus, be with us all.

Joe

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I know preterists will throw stones at me. Note my interpretations in red and I don't always follow typical futurist's interpretations:
I don't think anyone will throw stones my friend. But if they do, I'll jump in and say :nono:

:brick:

:stop:

[Richard Amiel McGough]

6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing. Paul was talking of his coming eminent death after fighting a good fight to finished the race.

Hi Cheow,

That is exactly correct (except eminent should be spelled imminent).

Do you see how this confirms the meaning of "at hand" as indicating something that is going to happen soon?

[TheForgiven]

Congratulations brother Cheow! I'd say you hit the nail right on the head with your comments. The details were slightly different from mine, but that is not important. What is important is that you recognized the time-statements in all of those verses listed. There are more of course, but I listed the most common ones.

Time-Statements such as "soon" or "at hand" are all the same no matter what passage you read. Now many of the Old Testament prophets used time-statements, and in most cases, they were true; that is, those prophesies represented the imminent threat upon ancient Israel as God dealt with their sinning. God also dealt with the Gentile nations with regards to sin.

At any case, I'm happy to see that you interpreted the time-statements correctly.

And don't worry about me (or anyone else) throwing stones at you. I may offer a rebuke from time to time, and at times I grow frustrated. And for this, I hope you will accept my apologies, and forgive me of posting harshly. :hug:

Now that you have a clear understanding of "at hand", you must obviously see that St. James understood that the Lord was at hand, and that His judgment was at hand...at least I hope and pray that you do. Here's the passage again:

James 5:

7 Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. 8 You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.

Here St. James tells the Saints of his day to prepare themselves as the farmers prepares to receive the fruit with which he labored. The Lord was getting ready to reap the fruitful saints of the first century. Why? That is another discussion. For now, we're merely gaining a clearer understanding of the time-statements.

St. James warned the false Jews of the pending disaster getting ready to be unleashed upon them, as noted in verses 1-5 (please read from your Bible). He then sends this word of encouragement for the brethren to remain steadfast. Why? Because verse 8 states that the coming of the Lord was at hand. Now we know that James could not lie as he was an Apostle of the Lord Jesus. Therefore, he obviously knew, based on the signs he was seeing, that the coming of the Lord was very close, and at hand. This is confirmed in verse 9:

9 Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!

The Lord was at hand, and his coming as judge (living and the dead) was soon upon them, as He was standing at the door as far back as the first century. Now I've noted you state in a previous post that you viewed James 5:9 as Christ standing at the door and knocking. But that is not the case here. James shows that His standing at the Door was for judgment; not an invitation for salvation.

In conclusion, the Lord's coming happened in the first century as denoted by the statements made by the Apostles. There is no need to stretch the basic intend of the time-statements, as many in our day tend to do. Granted there are verses that speak metaphorically, but in these particular cases, there is no reason to suggest that time-statements are metaphoric; rather, they are definite, and true.

May the Grace of God be with you all.

Joe

[CWH]

What I am saying in my reply to Joe is that "at hand", "soon" may not necessary mean what it means, we need also to take the meaning with the context. "At hand" may mean the following:
1. Near
2. In readiness
3. convenience
4. Omnipresence of God in which God is forever in our presence and will offer us a hand whenever we need Him.
5. What is at hand? The Kingdom of God/heaven may not equate to Jesus. If the Kingdom of God is coming, it does not mean Jesus is coming. It means the kingdom of the Christians/Christianity is coming. The Lord is near or He is at the door may also mean "so near yet so far".
6. "At hand" can also be based on divine timing; a day equates to a thousand years.

It's all based on context, context, context. If the Lord is coming, I expect Him to come physically never symbolically. Is there any verse in the Bible that says the Lord appears symbolically to the apostles or to men?

Many Blessings

[gregoryfl]

What about coming spiritually? And does that have to be understood as not literal? Is literal the opposite of spiritual? I do not see that Jesus merely came in a figurative, or symbolic sense, at all. He truly did come.

Ron

[CWH]

Show me where in the Bible did Jesus comes back spiritually. I can show you a multitude of mutually confirming verses to show that Jesus always comes back physically to his apostles. Even the angels also show themselves physically to the apostles never symbolically. I remember Ron in one of our transactions that you said that the angels appeared to the apostles physically so that they could see the angels as angels are spirits.

Many Blessings.

[gregoryfl]

Show me where in the Bible did Jesus comes back spiritually. I can show you a multitude of mutually confirming verses to show that Jesus always comes back physically to his apostles. Even the angels also show themselves physically to the apostles never symbolically. I remember Ron in one of our transactions that you said that the angels appeared to the apostles physically so that they could see the angels as angels are spirits.

Many Blessings.Yes, I do believe that the angels did, on occasion, appear to man in physical form. I also believe that there were occasions where others forms were used to show the angel of the lord being present, such as a pillar of cloud or of fire. I also believe that angels appeared spiritually in the sky, and could only be seen by God opening the eyes to see, such as in Elisha's day. I do not believe this was a physical appearing.

When Jesus appeared to his disciples, yes, he appeared physically, and, according to Mark's account, in different forms, which may explain why they did not recognize him at first. His appearance to Saul was a literal appearance as well, but his seeing of the Lord was a seeing of light brighter than the sun, and hearing a voice. There is no record of a physical form being seen.

With regard to the sign of Jesus presence, I believe that it would be the sign that people would see, not Jesus himself, that would be the way in which the world at that time would see the Son of Man. Again, as I understand it, no need for a sign if he appeared physically in the sky where every physical eye could see a physical Jesus there.

The appearing of the angels in the sky that Jesus records I believe to be the same type of appearing that occurred in Elisha's day, where they were not in physical form, but spiritual, and those who saw it were enabled to see it by God, just as God opened the eyes of Elisha's servant so that he could see the heavenly armies in his day.

I do not doubt that every eye seeing Jesus coming on the clouds of heaven in great glory was an actual observing of something. I just believe that what they actually saw was a sign that told them this was happening.

Cheow, you said that you were like a doubting Thomas, that "seeing is believing." I know what you meant by that, but I do not believe you truly mean it, because (and I am only guessing here) you have never literally seen the resurrected Lord Jesus have you? Has he ever appeared to you personally and physically? And yet I know you believe in him, and love him. Seeing is not always believing, otherwise you would not believe in him even now until you see him come back as you believe he will. I know you do not believe that. You have been given the faith and your spiritual eyes have been opened to "see" him, even while not "seeing" him.

Love you brother, :)

Ron

[CWH]

I understand Ron. My concern is supposed Jesus were to come today, how would I to know if he is to come symbolically. Even if he comes in a flash of light, how would I know if that is Jesus and not a natural phenomena?

Matthew 24 states clearly yet preterists allegorized it that the Son of Man will come in his glory and power. First the sign of the Son of Man in the sky, then Son of MAn coming on the clouds with great power and glory. How would I recognized that it is the sign of the Son of Man? How would I know it is the Son of Man and not Satan? How does He looks like that everyone could straightaway know He is the Son of Man. Note that all nations will mourn and see Him coming and therefore His coming cannot be seen by a selected group of people as you claimed. What I am saying is that Jesus must come in a recognizable physical form that everyone will know for sure that He is the Son of Man and not others or a natural phenomena.

30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Many Blessings.

[Rose]

Yes, I do believe that the angels did, on occasion, appear to man in physical form. I also believe that there were occasions where others forms were used to show the angel of the lord being present, such as a pillar of cloud or of fire. I also believe that angels appeared spiritually in the sky, and could only be seen by God opening the eyes to see, such as in Elisha's day. I do not believe this was a physical appearing.

When Jesus appeared to his disciples, yes, he appeared physically, and, according to Mark's account, in different forms, which may explain why they did not recognize him at first. His appearance to Saul was a literal appearance as well, but his seeing of the Lord was a seeing of light brighter than the sun, and hearing a voice. There is no record of a physical form being seen.

With regard to the sign of Jesus presence, I believe that it would be the sign that people would see, not Jesus himself, that would be the way in which the world at that time would see the Son of Man. Again, as I understand it, no need for a sign if he appeared physically in the sky where every physical eye could see a physical Jesus there.

The appearing of the angels in the sky that Jesus records I believe to be the same type of appearing that occurred in Elisha's day, where they were not in physical form, but spiritual, and those who saw it were enabled to see it by God, just as God opened the eyes of Elisha's servant so that he could see the heavenly armies in his day.

I do not doubt that every eye seeing Jesus coming on the clouds of heaven in great glory was an actual observing of something. I just believe that what they actually saw was a sign that told them this was happening.

Cheow, you said that you were like a doubting Thomas, that "seeing is believing." I know what you meant by that, but I do not believe you truly mean it, because (and I am only guessing here) you have never literally seen the resurrected Lord Jesus have you? Has he ever appeared to you personally and physically? And yet I know you believe in him, and love him. Seeing is not always believing, otherwise you would not believe in him even now until you see him come back as you believe he will. I know you do not believe that. You have been given the faith and your spiritual eyes have been opened to "see" him, even while not "seeing" him.

Love you brother, :)

Ron

Hi Ron,

You make a very good point! If Jesus appeared physically in the sky there would be no need for a sign, because the mere sight of His appearance itself would be a sign. But on the other hand the way that Jesus presented His coming to His Disciples was by first describing what that sign would be (destruction of the Temple) and then telling them when they saw the manifestation of that power displayed in the Temple being destroyed, they would know that to be the "sign of the Son of Man".

That is to say, the whole reason for describing the Temples destruction and then adding all the details of the things that were to happen before the Temples destruction, was to lay out the whole scenario that ended with a tremendous manifestation of power in the fulfillment of the prophecy Jesus gave concerning the destruction of the Temple.

God Bless,

Rose

[TheForgiven]

I think the problem that Futurist's are having is in reading Matthew 24:30:

Matthew 24:30
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

They are treating the appearance of Jesus in the sky as the sign. But that is not what the text says. It says that they would see the sign of the Son of Man coming in a cloud of power and great glory.

This was repeated in Jeremiah 4:13

13 Behold, he shall come up like clouds, and his chariots like a tempest. His horses are swifter than eagles. Woe to us, for we are plundered! 14 O Jerusalem, cleanse your heart from evil so that you may be saved. How long shall your vain thoughts lodge within you?

As explained before, this was a prophesy about the reign of destruction upon Jerusalem during the Babylonian invasion, resulting in the first temple's destruction. Yet at no time has anyone seen God physically coming with the clouds in the sky.

This same language is used in Matthew 24:30, and Revelation 1:7.

What are the "clouds" that represent the sign? The reign of destruction upon Apostate Israel, the movement of the Romans against the Apostates, and the establishment of the eternal Church upon the whole inhabited earth. All of these were clear indications of Christ's reign.

Now there were more physical signs that occurred in Jerusalem. These were:

1. Comet in the shape of a sword
2. Voice heard after a great earth quake that said, "let us leave hence"
3. The face of Christ (or an Angel) leaving the temple and settling on the Mt.
4. The Angels in Chariots of fire seen in the heavens

No doubt, if we were alive then to witness all of these spectacular events, we would be shouting Alleluia to the Highest as the reigning Lord Jesus makes His "Presence" known.

Is His reigning visible today? It most certainly is, although not as miraculous as we'd like. We see nations being judged and blessed. We see His decisions within our own personal lives, day in and day out. To those of us with faith, we know that He reigns even though we do not see Him; that won't come until we die, and are taken into eternity after we are judged.

In conclusion, Jesus mentions a sign of His Presence, and there were many signs. The disaster that came upon Jerusalem represented the Cloud of Judgment upon Apostate Israel, resulting in the tribes of Israel mourning for it's death.

There is no physical Presence to be seen; only His signs of His presence, which exists even today.

Joe

[CWH]

Hi Rose,

See the words carefully, the sign of the Son of Man is in the sky. Are you saying the appearance of the destruction of Jerusalem will appear in the sky?

30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

And ALL the nations will mourn, not just Israel.

Many Blessings.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Show me where in the Bible did Jesus comes back spiritually.
Excellent question! I am delighted to present the passages to you. There is one and only one verse in which Jesus explicitly states that "I will come again."
John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
And what does Jesus promise will happen when he "comes again?" The promise is explicit - the Trinune God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) will come to dwell in the believers:
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. 22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? 23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we [The Trinity] will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Thus we understand how Jesus would "come again." He would come SPIRITUALLY to dwell in the believer. Furthermore, the blue text is mutually confirmed by the promise of a "second appearing" of Christ to "those who wait for him:"
Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Note that the Bible says Christ would appear a "second time" only to those who "look for him." And who are those if not the believers? This confirms the spiritual coming of Christ to the disciples.

I have presented a fuller exegesis of theses passages in my article called An Exegesis of John 14 (http://biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=632&highlight=exegesis+john).

Richard

[Rose]

Hi Rose,

See the words carefully, the sign of the Son of Man is in the sky. Are you saying the appearance of the destruction of Jerusalem will appear in the sky?

30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Hey Cheow,

Here is another correct reading of this verse:
.

Matt.24:30 And then shall appear the sign that the Son of man is in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
.
My paraphrase would read this way: then shall appear "the sign" (the destruction of the Temple) that the Son of Man is indeed in heaven (as He said He would be), because every Jew from every nation (attending the Feast of Passover) shall see His power manifested by the Temples destruction.


And ALL the nations will mourn, not just Israel.

Many Blessings.

Yes indeed! Jews dwelling in all nations under heaven that were at Jerusalem attending the last Feast of Passover, would be weeping and wailing over the destruction of their Temple (and the lives of their fellow Jews)....the very Temple that Jesus prophesied would be destroyed.
.

Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
.
I hope that answers your question...:D

God Bless,

Rose

[CWH]

Hey Cheow,

Here is another correct reading of this verse:
.

Matt.24:30 And then shall appear the sign that the Son of man is in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
.
My paraphrase would read this way: then shall appear "the sign" (the destruction of the Temple) that the Son of Man is indeed in heaven (as He said He would be), because every Jew from every nation (attending the Feast of Passover) shall see His power manifested by the Temples destruction.



Yes indeed! Jews dwelling in all nations under heaven that were at Jerusalem attending the last Feast of Passover, would be weeping and wailing over the destruction of their Temple (and the lives of their fellow Jews)....the very Temple that Jesus prophesied would be destroyed.
.

Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
.
I hope that answers your question...:D

God Bless,

Rose

Where in the Bible or in Josephus account did it says that the Jews from all over the known world came to Jerusalem to attend the Feast of Passover in AD 70 and saw the destruction of the Temple? Did the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem occurred during the time of the last Feast of the Passover? The part you quoted in Act 2:5 occurred during AD 30s (see Act 1 just when Jesus was resurrected and appeared many times to them), way before the destruction of the Temple of Jerusalem in AD 70. Were the Jews from all over the known still there in Jerusalem in AD 70? All these to me are just assumptions.

Many Blessings.

[Edward Goodie]

Where in the Bible or in Josephus account did it says that the Jews from all over the known world came to Jerusalem to attend the Feast of Passover in AD 70 and saw the destruction of the Temple? Did the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem occurred during the time of the last Feast of the Passover? The part you quoted in Act 2:5 occurred during AD 30s (see Act 1 just when Jesus was resurrected and appeared many times to them), way before the destruction of the Temple of Jerusalem in AD 70. Were the Jews from all over the known still there in Jerusalem in AD 70? All these to me are just assumptions.

Many Blessings.

I think this can be best answered by Cheow himself...

How often were the Jews to return to Jerusalem to participate in the feasts? Once a year, or every 5 years, or every 10 years, or every 20 years, or every 40 years, or every 100 years? No one is saying that all the Jews from Acts 2:5 continued to dwell in Jerusalem for another 40 years...at least I am not saying or believing that.

In the mean time, why don't you do a little checking as to the number of Jews believed to be in Jerusalem in 70 AD...

[Rose]

Where in the Bible or in Josephus account did it says that the Jews from all over the known world came to Jerusalem to attend the Feast of Passover in AD 70 and saw the destruction of the Temple? Did the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem occurred during the time of the last Feast of the Passover? The part you quoted in Act 2:5 occurred during AD 30s (see Act 1 just when Jesus was resurrected and appeared many times to them), way before the destruction of the Temple of Jerusalem in AD 70. Were the Jews from all over the known still there in Jerusalem in AD 70? All these to me are just assumptions.

Many Blessings.

Hi Cheow,

I'm so glad you asked. Josephus lays the entire event out in explicit detail; below I've presented just a small portion.
.
Wars of the Jews book VI 9:3 'Now the number of those that were carried captive during this whole war was collected to be ninety-seven thousand (97,000); as was the number of those that perished during the whole siege eleven hundred thousand (1,100,000), the greater part of whom were indeed of the same nation [with the citizens of Jerusalem], but not belonging to the city itself; for they were come up from all the country to the feast of unleavened bread, and were on a sudden shut up by an army, which, at the very first, occasioned so great a straitness among them, that there came a pestilential destruction upon them, and soon afterward such a famine, as destroyed them more suddenly. And that this city could contain so many people in it, is manifest by that number of them which was taken under Cestius, who being desirous of informing Nero of the power of the city, who otherwise was disposed to contemn that nation, entreated the high priests, if the thing were possible, to take the number of their whole multitude.So these high priests, upon the coming of that feast which is called the Passover,.....

9:4 'Now this vast multitude is indeed collected out of remote places, but the entire nation was now shut up by fate as in prison, and the Roman army encompassed the city when it was crowded with inhabitants. Accordingly, the multitude of those that therein perished exceeded all the destructions that either men or God ever brought upon the world; for, to speak only of what was publicly known, the Romans slew some of them, some they carried captives, and others they made a search for under ground, and when they found where they were, they broke up the ground and slew all they met with.'
.
Every Jew, no matter where he resided in the world was required to make the pilgrimage to Jerusalem to attend the Feast of Passover, that is why the population of Jerusalem would swell to multiple millions at the time of the Feasts. This is why so many Jews were killed at this fateful last Passover, when the Roman army surrounded the city trapping millions within her walls.


God Bless

Rose

[CWH]

ok, thanks for the info which I have missed. But obviously not every Jews but many Jews from many nations were in Jerusalem at that time. But the sign of the coming of the Son of Man cannot be the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. Josephus did not account on that.

Many Blessings.

[Rose]

ok, thanks for the info which I have missed. But obviously not every Jews but many Jews from many nations were in Jerusalem at that time. But the sign of the coming of the Son of Man cannot be the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. Josephus did not account on that.

Many Blessings.

Hey Cheow,

Why can't the destruction of Jerusalem be the sign that the Son of Man is in heaven, showing that He fulfilled what He prophesied would happen by His parousia manifested in the power of judgment poured out upon the city and its people.

God Bless,

Rose