The End of the Age (aion)

[Rose]

.


The question asked of Jesus in the Olivet Discourse about when "the End of the Age' would happen, is a rare phrase; found only 6 times in the New Testament. Five of those times occur in the Gospel of Matthew, and once in the book of Hebrews. It is in Hebrews that the time frame of this phrase is defined. Paul tells us that once in 'the end of the age' Jesus has come and gave Himself as a sacrifice for humanity; giving an exact time frame (1st century) to its meaning.
.
Heb.9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world (kosmos): but now once in the end (suntelia) of the age (aion) hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
.
The other 5 times occur in the book of Matthew where once again we can define by the context of its usage the time period it is referring to. The verse in Matthew that brings this phrase to mind is found in the Olivet Discourse where Matthew records a significant question asked of Jesus in response to His statement of the destruction of the Temple. That unique question found only in Matthew's Gospel is asking: when shall the end of the age be?
.
Matt.24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end (sunteleia) of the age (aion)?
.
To better understand the image Matthew would have placed on this 'end of the age' question we need to go to the other 4 places it is used, and that is also found in the book of Matthew. It occurs three times in chapter 13 where Jesus is speaking in parables to His disciples, to help them better understand His message on what is to happen at the end of the age, thus defining its usage for us. Clearly here it is understood to mean the time of judgment that is to occur when Jesus ushers in the Kingdom of Heaven, which is also defined in: 1Cor.15:24 'Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.'. From these verses a clear and precise meaning can be attached to what Matthew would have meant by the end of the age in the question he asked of Jesus.
.
Matt.13:38 The field is the world (kosmos); the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39) The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end (sunteleia) of the age (aion); and the reapers are the angels. 40) As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end (sunteleia) of this age (aion). 41) The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42) And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43) Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
44) Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field. 45) Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls: 46) Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it. 47) Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: 48) Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. 49) So shall it be at the end (sunteleia) of the age (aion): the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, 50) And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
.
Last, but not least is the final usage of the term 'end of the age' and this time it is used to convey a message of comfort to the disciples. Jesus tells them that He will be with them always and that means right up until the end.
.
Matt.28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway even unto the end (sunteleia) of the age (aion). Amen.
.
Now when we return to the original question asked of Jesus by Matthew in the Olivet Discourse on when the End of the Age would occur, we can better understand what those words meant to Matthew, and the image that he would have attached to those words. What he was asking Jesus was: 'when should we expect to see you coming in judgment and bringing in the Kingdom of Heaven?' directly connecting that with the destruction of the Temple that Jesus was speaking of, and the time frame of 1st century sacrifice of Jesus, given us in Hebrews.



Rose

[basilfo]

Once again - Rose presents clear and Scripturally supported positions. Well done. Not surprisingly, there is more that supports the past fulfillment of "the end of the age".

Since I'm cursed with an engineering brain, let's look at it this way:

If A=B, and B=C, then (usually) A=C.
OR
If the parousia (A) was to occur at the end of the age (B), and the end of the age (B) occured in the 1st century (C), then VOILA! the parousia occured in the 1st century.

From the OD, we see that Jesus equated "Your coming" (the parousia) with "the sign of the Son of Man coming on the clouds".

And here are some texts (you guys probably can find others) that show how Jesus "coming on the clouds" and the associated giving of the Kingdom to Him was a past event to the NT writers:

Dan 13:7 - " I was watching in the night visions, And behold, [One] like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him. 14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, Which shall not pass away, And His kingdom [the one] Which shall not be destroyed.

If anyone thinks this "coming with the clouds" event to receive the Kingdom is not a past event, they are in disagreement with Paul and Peter who spoke of it as a done deal:

Ephesians 1:20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated [Him] at His right hand in the heavenly [places,] 21 far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come. 22 And He put all [things] under His feet, and gave Him [to be] head over all [things] to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

Col 2:10 .....and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.

1 Pet 4:11 ".....that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belong the glory and the dominion forever and ever."

Keep up the good work Rose!

Peace to you,
Dave

[Battyus]

Dear Rose,

Very nice study!

I would like to get more insight about the following:

.
Last, but not least is the final usage of the term 'end of the age' and this time it is used to convey a message of comfort to the disciples. Jesus tells them that He will be with them always and that means right up until the end.
. Matt.28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway even unto the end (sunteleia) of the age (aion). Amen.

Rose

Let me quote the verse in context: Mat 28:19-20:
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


If Jesus was with us only up until 70 Ad, then He's not with us anymore?

If He was only with the Apostles up until AD 70 and the "you" terms have never included me some 2000 years later, then the great commandment does not involve me either. Should I stop teaching and baptizing people, because it was not a commandment to me at the first place?

May you have a blessed day!
Battyus

[Battyus]

Dear David,

I have two quick questions:


Dan 13:7 - " I was watching in the night visions, And behold, [One] like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him. 14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, Which shall not pass away, And His kingdom [the one] Which shall not be destroyed.
Dave

How many nations serve Christ today? Let's not go that far: How many of the people you know serve Christ today?

Blessings,
Battyus

[gregoryfl]

Dear Rose,

Very nice study!

I would like to get more insight about the following:


Let me quote the verse in context: Mat 28:19-20:
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


If Jesus was with us only up until 70 Ad, then He's not with us anymore?

If He was only with the Apostles up until AD 70 and the "you" terms have never included me some 2000 years later, then the great commandment does not involve me either. Should I stop teaching and baptizing people, because it was not a commandment to me at the first place?

May you have a blessed day!
BattyusLet it be explained this way Battyus, for this is actually a very common English expression as well.

If you were to go through a problem, and I told you that "I will be right there with you to the very end," would you think that I would only be there with you until the problem was over, then ditch you? Of course not. That is all Jesus was saying, not that he would only be there with them until the events he spoke of were completed, but that no matter how bad things got, they could count on Jesus being right there with them all the way through it. That's all. :)

Ron

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Let it be explained this way Battyus, for this is actually a very common English expression as well.

If you were to go through a problem, and I told you that "I will be right there with you to the very end," would you think that I would only be there with you until the problem was over, then ditch you? Of course not. That is all Jesus was saying, not that he would only be there with them until the events he spoke of were completed, but that no matter how bad things got, they could count on Jesus being right there with them all the way through it. That's all. :)

Ron
Here's a analogy. A man is unjustly convicted of a crime and sent to prison for 20 years. His wife tells him "Honey, I love you absolutely and will stay with you to the very end, no matter what happens." She faithfully visits him every weekend for 20 years. Then when his sentence comes to an end and he is released, she dumps him and gets a divorce.

Obviously, doing something "unto the end" of Time Period A does not imply that one ceases doing it in the Time Period B that follows. A good example is "I will love God until the day I die." Does that imply that I will cease to love God after I die?

[Battyus]

Dear Ron and Richard,

Thank you for the analogies! I'm really trying to understand your views, that's why I'm asking so many questions.

This is what I gathered so far:
-Jesus said "I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world" (aion)
-Rose puts the "end of the world (aion)" to AD70

Let's say how Jesus' sentence sounds again with this new info:
"... I am with you alway, even unto 70AD"

Why would Jesus say that He is with us only until 70 AD if He plans to be with us even after that year?

If He still with us after 70 AD, then why would he say such a sentence at the first place?

I'll talk to you guys soon!
Battyus

[gregoryfl]

Dear Ron and Richard,

Why would Jesus say that He is with us only until 70 AD if He plans to be with us even after that year?

If He still with us after 70 AD, then why would he say such a sentence at the first place?

I'll talk to you guys soon!
BattyusFor the same reason I would tell someone I will be with them to the bitter end, even though I plan on being with them beyond that time. The expression is meant to comfort the person hearing it.

Ron

[Battyus]

For the same reason I would tell someone I will be with them to the bitter end, even though I plan on being with them beyond that time. The expression is meant to comfort the person hearing it.

Ron
Thank you Ron, I understand your point.

More questions:
When was the actual "end of the age"? At crucifixion or at AD 70?

If it was at crucifixion, then why in the Olivet Discourse Jesus puts it at AD 70 according to your view?

If it was at AD 70, then how come Paul puts it at the crucifixion in Heb 9:26?

Thanks, in advance,
Battyus

[Rose]

Dear Ron and Richard,

Thank you for the analogies! I'm really trying to understand your views, that's why I'm asking so many questions.

This is what I gathered so far:
-Jesus said "I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world" (aion)
-Rose puts the "end of the world (aion)" to AD70

Let's say how Jesus' sentence sounds again with this new info:
"... I am with you alway, even unto 70AD"

Why would Jesus say that He is with us only until 70 AD if He plans to be with us even after that year?

If He still with us after 70 AD, then why would he say such a sentence at the first place?

I'll talk to you guys soon!
Battyus

Hi Battyus,

Thank you for pursuing this point....I think it is very important!

First, the focus needs to be placed on who Jesus was talking to, and that was specifically His Disciples. Jesus wasn't speaking to us today, or anyone else after AD 70; so with that in mind it becomes much clearer why He phrased His statement as such.

The times ahead for the firstborn Church were to be difficult indeed, and if it were not for their absolute knowing that Jesus was to be with them to the bitter end they may have lost hope. That is why it was so important for the parting words of Jesus to be "I am going to be with you at every moment, right up until the end."

After the consummation of the marriage of the Lamb, there would be no doubt that Jesus was with His bride "the Church" forevermore.

God Bless,

Rose

[Rose]

More questions:
When was the actual "end of the age"? At crucifixion or at AD 70?

If it was at crucifixion, then why in the Olivet Discourse Jesus puts it at AD 70 according to your view?

If it was at AD 70, then how come Paul puts it at the crucifixion in Heb 9:26?

Thanks, in advance,
Battyus

Hi Battyus,

Paul didn't specifically put the end at AD 70, but rather said that the crucifixion of Christ is what began the end of the age.

Heb.9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world (kosmos): but now once in the end (suntelia) of the age (aion) hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

The approx. 40 years from the cross to AD 70, was when the Old was in the process of vanishing away.

Heb.8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Rose

[Victor]

The "end of the aion" was a period of time, not a single day/event. It took place during the 1st century AD. It began with the Christ event and ran all the way to the destruction of Jerusalem. This was a transition period characterized by an overlap between the Old and New Covenant ages.

Hebrews 9:26 seems to exactly indicate this concept that the end of the age was a period of time, because it says that the end of the age encapsulated both "now" (the period when the epistle was written) and the time of the crucifixion.

Heb.9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world : but (1) now once in the end of the age (2) hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
The end of the age comprised the time of the crucifixion, but it was still an ongoing event by the time the letter was written. This is corroborated by Hebrews 8:13, quoted above.

On the other hand, according to the costumary preterist view, how can we determine from the Bible that the Church should be 'teaching and baptizing' now? How do I know that this is a commandment that applies to both you and me? :winking0071:

[Battyus]

Thank you for all the answers Rose and Victor!

(I still have more - please don't get mad just yet :) )

So if the "end of the aion" was a period and not a single event, then how come the disciples connected it so closely to the Destruction of the Temple? (According to the Preterist vew as far as I understand the two are closely related.)

If the Temple's destruction was a big event (the end of) the "end of the aion" period, then how come the other big event (the begining) of it is not mentioned in the Olivet Discourse? Wouldn't it be natural to tell the disciples, that "hey, the signs will start with my crucifixion"?

Many blessings to all of you,
Battyus

[Richard Amiel McGough]

The "end of the aion" was a period of time, not a single day/event. It took place during the 1st century AD. It began with the Christ event and ran all the way to the destruction of Jerusalem. This was a transition period characterized by an overlap between the Old and New Covenant ages.

Hebrews 9:26 seems to exactly indicate this concept that the end of the age was a period of time, because it says that the end of the age encapsulated both "now" (the period when the epistle was written) and the time of the crucifixion.
Heb.9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world : but (1) now once in the end of the age (2) hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
The end of the age comprised the time of the crucifixion, but it was still an ongoing event by the time the letter was written. This is corroborated by Hebrews 8:13, quoted above.

On the other hand, according to the costumary preterist view, how can we determine from the Bible that the Church should be 'teaching and baptizing' now? How do I know that this is a commandment that applies to both you and me? :winking0071:
Hey Victor,

I agree that the verse from Hebrews settles the question about the end of the age happening in the first century, but I also see that this means we need to reevaluate how to understand some key passages that have been traditionally understood as giving on going instruction to the Christian Church through the ages like the command to "teach and baptize." An even more challenging verse is this verse:
1 Corinthians 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
There are some preterists who teach that we don't take communion now because the coming was in 70 AD. But I don't think that follows for the same reason that "I will be with you until the end of the aion" does not mean that Christ suddenly quit being with us in 70 AD.

In general, we need to be very careful when reading the "you" in the NT as applying to all Christians at all times. For example, Paul said that folks shouldn't even get married because of the "present distress." That was advice given to Christians shortly before the destruction Jerusalem. It made perfect since at the time, but applied only for a few years until the Great Tribulation passed. I certainly don't think God wants us to follow that advice today. And this means we must use sound judgment when reading the Bible. Adhering to a simple literalistic reading is a grave error that results in false doctrine.

Now this brings up a fundamental problem that both preterists and futurists must address - a simple reading of the NT certainly suggests that Paul and all the apostles expected the coming of Christ to occur in the first century. But there also are passages that give the impression that they expected a visible physical personal return. Now if there is one thing we know, both of these ideas can not be true. So we have to reinterpret one or the other!

1) The Time Texts do (preterist) or do not (futurist) mean what they appear to mean.

2) The Nature of the Coming was (futurist) or was not (preterist) a visible, physical, personal return.

So that's pretty much it. Both camps must reinterpret some aspects of the Bible to some extent. I am a preterist because I see the vast body of evidence suggesting that the Time Texts are naturally literal and really do mean what they appear to mean, whereas God describes the Nature of the Coming using obviously symbolic language such as "coming on clouds," "the sun turning black," and "stars falling" etc.

Richard

[Victor]

Thank you for all the answers Rose and Victor!

(I still have more - please don't get mad just yet :) )

So if the "end of the aion" was a period and not a single event, then how come the disciples connected it so closely to the Destruction of the Temple? (According to the Preterist vew as far as I understand the two are closely related.)

If the Temple's destruction was a big event (the end of) the "end of the aion" period, then how come the other big event (the begining) of it is not mentioned in the Olivet Discourse? Wouldn't it be natural to tell the disciples, that "hey, the signs will start with my crucifixion"?

Many blessings to all of you,
Battyus

Hello Battyus!

There is no problem at all with that. Since the end of the aion climaxes with the destruction of the Old Covenant system, we can use this expression in a metonymic way to refer to this single event.

Metonymy: the use of the name of one object or concept for that of another to which it is related or of which it is a part, as "scepter" for "sovereignty."
Since the end of the age is a time period, we can use the same expression to refer to significant events within that period, like the Crucifixion, the siege of Jerusalem and the Destruction of the Temple.

It is just like the expression "the elections." We can refer either to a period that lasts months or to that single day when people go to vote.

Since the subject in the immediate context of the OD is what Christ said about the destruction of the Jerusalem, the focus of the attention was this event, and to it the expression "end of the age" was being applied.

Christ didn't need to explain everything in the way you suggested. If we use the same criterion, Christ could only teach the Trinity if He used formulae like the ones found in the Athanasian Creed. In fact, all the Bible would have to be written in some other way according to this principle. It would leave little room for the interconnectivity that leaves us amazed as we learn Scripture and link this to that.

By the way, Christ had already explained the crucifixion in the past, but it went over their heads. In the Mount of Olives, they had other things in mind and the Lord probably decided to leave it at that.

And the Cross event is not completely absent of the OD. But that's another subject.

[Rose]

Thank you for all the answers Rose and Victor!

(I still have more - please don't get mad just yet :) )

So if the "end of the aion" was a period and not a single event, then how come the disciples connected it so closely to the Destruction of the Temple? (According to the Preterist vew as far as I understand the two are closely related.)

If the Temple's destruction was a big event (the end of) the "end of the aion" period, then how come the other big event (the begining) of it is not mentioned in the Olivet Discourse? Wouldn't it be natural to tell the disciples, that "hey, the signs will start with my crucifixion"?

Many blessings to all of you,
Battyus

Hi Battyus,

No worries about us getting mad at you...:p I know I'm lovin' this conversation...:pop2:

Now to your most excellent question. A couple of reasons come to mind as to why Jesus doesn't explicitly say "the end will begin at my crucifixion". First, on a number of occasions Jesus had already introduced the idea of His upcoming death to His disciples, and they hadn't even begun to understand what He meant, so at this point it would have only confused things more to again bring in an idea they hadn't yet grasp.

Secondly, after the fact (crucifixion) it seems that it was clear as to when the end times began. Peter for one in the book of Acts makes it very clear that the days they were in at that very moment were the last days, explicitly stating the prophecy of Joel was taking place at Pentecost.
Acts 2:16-17 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

The last days (plural) of the age began with the crucifixion of Christ, and continued until the last day which was when every last stone of the Temple was knocked down. The whole period of time between the two events comprised the LAST DAYS in which the Old (Jewish age) was vanishing away, up until that last point in time when it was gone.


Hope that helps....:D

Rose

[Victor]

Hey Victor,

I agree that the verse from Hebrews settles the question about the end of the age happening in the first century, but I also see that this means we need to reevaluate how to understand some key passages that have been traditionally understood as giving on going instruction to the Christian Church through the ages like the command to "teach and baptize."

Thanks for your analysis!

So, how do we determine from the Bible, with certainty, that the Church should "teach and baptize" even after 70 AD? See, this is no unimportant subject.

And another question: can we legitimately use Matthew 28 as biblical support to exhort the church to preach and baptize?


Both camps must reinterpret some aspects of the Bible to some extent.

Well, in the case of the preterist who confronts passages that suggest a visible coming, I don't see a need for him to "reinterpret" the texts. He only "interprets" (not "reinteprets") the passages in light of the biblical intepretive tradition that goes back to the OT and sees these passages as having symbolic meaning.


I am a preterist because I see the vast body of evidence suggesting that the Time Texts are naturally literal and really do mean what they appear to mean, whereas God describes the Nature of the Coming using obviously symbolic language such as "coming on clouds," "the sun turning black," and "stars falling" etc.

Richard

Perfect! The time markers demand a literal interpretation otherwise they would be devoid of meaning. Things like the "darkening of the sun" were used in a symbolic sense in the OT and so they must be interpreted symbolically.

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

Here are some comments in Trenches lexicon about the translation of the words kosmos and aeon. He almost implies that the translaters intentionally mistranslated aeon.

Κόσμος (KOSMOS) our Translators have rendered ‘world’ in every instance but one (1 Pet. 3:3);

αἰών (AEON) they have often, (translated world) though by no means invariably (consistently) so; for (not to speak of εἰς αἰῶνα) see Ephes. 2:2, 7; Col. 1:26.
These are the places where aeon is rendered 'age' or ages in the KJV.

It may be a question whether we might not have made more use of ‘age’ in our Version: we have employed it but rarely,—only, indeed, in the two places which I have cited last. ‘Age’ may sound to us inadequate now; but it is quite possible that, so used, it would little by little have expanded and adapted itself to the larger meaning of the Greek word for which it stood. One must regret that, by this or some other like device, our Translators did not mark the difference between κόσμος (== mundus), the world contemplated under aspects of space, and αἰών (== seculum), the same contemplated under aspects of time; for the Latin, no less than the Greek, has two words, where we have, or have acted as though we had, but one. In all those passages (such as Matt. 13:39; 1 Cor. 10:11) which speak of the end or consummation of the αἰών (there are none which speak of the end of the κόσμος), as in others which speak of “the wisdom of this world” (1 Cor. 2:6), “the god of this world” (2 Cor. 4:4), “the children of this world” (Luke 16:8), it must be admitted that we are losers by the course which we have adopted.

[joel]

Hebrews 9:26 (King James Version)

26For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
----------------------------------------

Please note that "the end of the world" here is......more appropriately.....end of the ages (plural,.....not singular).

(ages....before His appearing) + (end of the ages......His appearing)
-----------------------------+-------------------------------------
His cross is the focual point that divides the ages

From the point of the cross, spanning the ages that follow, He is putting away sin.

Joel

[Rose]

Hebrews 9:26 (King James Version)

26For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
----------------------------------------

Please note that "the end of the world" here is......more appropriately.....end of the ages (plural,.....not singular).

(ages....before His appearing) + (end of the ages......His appearing)
-----------------------------+-------------------------------------
His cross is the focual point that divides the ages

From the point of the cross, spanning the ages that follow, He is putting away sin.

Joel

Hi Joel,

Instead of it being a continual, on-going state of putting away sin, I would say that once, at the end of the age (present time for Paul) - at the cross - Christ put away the power of sin forever.


Rose

[Victor]

Here are some comments in Trenches lexicon about the translation of the words kosmos and aeon. He almost implies that the translaters intentionally mistranslated aeon.

Κόσμος (KOSMOS) our Translators have rendered ‘world’ in every instance but one (1 Pet. 3:3); αἰών (AEON) often, though by no means invariably so; for (not to speak of εἰς αἰῶνα) see Ephes. 2:2, 7; Col. 1:26. It may be a question whether we might not have made more use of ‘age’ in our Version: we have employed it but rarely,—only, indeed, in the two places which I have cited last. ‘Age’ may sound to us inadequate now; but it is quite possible that, so used, it would little by little have expanded and adapted itself to the larger meaning of the Greek word for which it stood. One must regret that, by this or some other like device, our Translators did not mark the difference between κόσμος (== mundus), the world contemplated under aspects of space, and αἰών (== seculum), the same contemplated under aspects of time; for the Latin, no less than the Greek, has two words, where we have, or have acted as though we had, but one. In all those passages (such as Matt. 13:39; 1 Cor. 10:11) which speak of the end or consummation of the αἰών (there are none which speak of the end of the κόσμος), as in others which speak of 'the wisdom of this world' (1 Cor. 2:6), 'the god of this world' (2 Cor. 4:4), 'the children of this world' (Luke 16:8), it must be admitted that we are losers by the course which we have adopted.

Very good quote!

And even the word kosmos itself does not necessarily mean the entire planet earth. So the end of the kosmos and the end of the aion are expression that don't necessitate the "destruction of the planet/universe" interpretation.

[Victor]

Hebrews 9:26 (King James Version)

26For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
----------------------------------------

Please note that "the end of the world" here is......more appropriately.....end of the ages (plural,.....not singular).

(ages....before His appearing) + (end of the ages......His appearing)
-----------------------------+-------------------------------------
His cross is the focual point that divides the ages

From the point of the cross, spanning the ages that follow, He is putting away sin.

Joel

Hey Joel,

The plural form of aion appears elsewhere in Hebrews. For example:

Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds [aion] were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
The Word of God "framed" the ages (aiona). With the declaration above, the author reflects the common view that the history was divided in large periods of time (ages), like from creation to the flood, from the flood to Abraham, and so on.

By saying that the word of God framed the ages, the Bible is teaching that God is the Author of History. History is His Story. Hebrews 11 presents the people who had Faith throughout the ages before the Advent, starting with Abel and going on with names such as Noah, Abraham and Moses.

So when Christ came, the End of the Ages took place.

[joel]

Hi Joel,

Instead of it being a continual, on-going state of putting away sin, I would say that once, at the end of the age (present time for Paul) - at the cross - Christ put away the power of sin forever.


Rose

Rose, the verb form of "putting away" is defined as;

αθετεω atheteo {ath-et-eh'-o} from a compound of 1 (as a negative particle) and a derivative of 5087; TDNT - 8:158,1176; v AV - despise 8, reject 4, bring to nothing 1, frustrate 1, disannul 1, cast off 1; 16 1) to do away with, to set aside, disregard 2) to thwart the efficacy of anything, nullify, make void, frustrate 3) to reject, to refuse, to slight

The putting away occurred on the cross, and is being applied in a continual manner until He has subjected all things under His feet,......the last "enemy" to be subjected is "death".

Joel

[TheForgiven]

Paul states that Christ must reign until the last enemy "Death" has been placed under His feet. Hence, sin is supposedly to be "done away with".

OK, my fellow Futurist's who expect a world of perfection. Let me ask you guys a challenging question.

If "Sin" is to be done away with forever, how will YOU be part of a sinless world? If you are sinners now, how will that change at the resurrection? Will you somehow be made into "sinless" creatures?

I've heard the Dispensational myth (since childhood) teach, "we do not know how God will make us into a world/habitation of sinlessness, but we just know it's going to happen..." Oh really?

OK then, if you are sinners now (on this earth, in this physical world of dying people, and people who have died AS SINNERS), what will change your sinful pattern at the resurrection? Will God somehow destroy the sinful nature ONLY by raising you unto eternity? Why not do that now?

Some have answered, "The flesh causes us to sin, so God will give us a new body that will not tempt us, thereby preventing those who have been raised from sinning...." Gee, so God purposely subjected us to earthly bodies of sin, in order to set up a temporary kingdom through which Christians would suffer (for what reason I might ask?), and all so we can wait patiently, and faithfully, to inherit a new body that will keep us from sinning? This is absurd!

Consider this. If our "Bodies" is what causes mankind to sin (and we are all sinners according to nearly every Christian), then how do you explain the devil, or his fallen angels, who never had a body? Hence, if they are sinners WITHOUT the human body, what makes the Futurist's think that they will inherit a sinless world even though they are sinners now? If you are sinners now, what will make you different? And what would give you the right to enter a sinless world, if you are still sinners now? If you sin now, what's to stop you from sinning then?

POINT: To expect a future world where sinning is impossible, is to blame our shortfalls on the body, and others. And to teach that a new world is coming when sinning will be stricken, thereby impossible, in order to justify sinning in the flesh at the time being, is false. The only place where sinning does not exist is in Heaven (the Barn). The earth is a field for growing crops, thus it's only natural to find imperfections there. Just a the farmer removes the imperfect vegetation from the field, and takes the perfect fruits into his barn, so too does God reap us, to be taken into the Barn. Hence, the earth will always have imperfection, but heaven won't.

Sister Rose rightly states that Christ done away with sin, and the power of sin, by His sacrifice on the cross. This does not "FORCE" us into being righteous, but it inspires us (through the Spirit) to say no to sin, and yes to holiness. And by training ourselves to live righteously, we are being prepared to abide in the eternal habitation, IN HEAVEN, where every risen Saint has lived since the day God raised them from Hades. This began in the first century, and has continued to happen since that time. For prior to Christ, all who died (good or bad) were kept in Hades, with the exception of those whom God raised immediately. For example, Moses was probably raised, and Satan protested to God because of this. Satan new that Moses sinned, and yet Moses was raised. How do we know that Moses was raised? Or even Elijah? They appeared to Christ during the transfiguration. They appeared in their heavenly splendor, just as Christ did after His resurrection.

So, to recap, where does this idea of a sinless world come from? And what makes Futurist's (or any Christian) believe that they will somehow inherit a sinless body and free them from the one they have now? Isn't this the same as blaming our sinning on the body itself? There's no Biblical teaching that tells us our bodies cause sin. That's a Gnostic teaching. Rather our "abuses" of the body formed bad habits which we call sin. Christ came into the world to give us a second chance at life. The condition? Turn away from sinning, and learn to live holy. Thus, His purpose was to "REVERSE" what the Devil had planted; a world of sinning. Jesus came to build a world of righteousness by reversing, and overcoming what Satan had begun. Satan caused sin by allowing it's birth. Jesus, the opposite of what Satan did, caused birth of righteousness in order to "clean up the mess" that Satan created.

Since the first century, death has been defeated. But those who choose to remain in sin, and thus lose their souls, remain in a state of death. The only way to freedom from death is through Christ, who defeated death, and has the power and victory over death.

IS DEATH STILL REIGNING IN POWER UNTIL CHRIST DEFEATS IT?

No! It is not, according to His very own words:

Revelation 1:18

18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

Death no longer has mastery over us who have been called into His kingdom of righteousness. And as the Messiah Himself states, "I have the key...of death", thus indicating that He placed death under the soles of His feet.....in short, HE'S THE BOSS! Death is not the boss. So Paul's statement, "He must reign until He has subjected all enemies under His feet; the last being death..." is obviously fulfilled, or else Christ CANNOT be master, even of death. Yet He states that HE IS the boss of death for He has the keys.

Paul's statement is fulfilled....

What say you all? :sSW_saberfight2:

Joe

[joel]

how will YOU be part of a sinless world? If you are sinners now, how will that change at the resurrection? Will you somehow be made into "sinless" creatures?



Jesus is progressively dealing with sin......throughout the ages which follow the cross.

1.) He dealty with the penalty of sin by His blood.

2.) He dealt with the power of sin by the sacrifcie of His body. (His body became "sin" for us..........). He rendered the body of sin "out of business".
----------------------------------------

We access both of these aspects of the truth of His sacrifice by faith.

His blood covers your sins (the penalty has been removed).

His body on the cross became sin, and placed it into death.......so that it would no longer have dominion over humanity (the power of sin has been "put out of business"). This is also made real by faith in what God claims He has accomplished in Christ.

As we move through the eons.......this one is classified as "evil".......ie. this evil world........sin continues to be expressed through "Adam" and his posterity.......but, in Christ, sin's power has been broken. It is still present, and the penalty of disobedience still faces those who do not have faith in His blood.

The power of sin remains and is expressed as long as the teachings of Paul in Romans 6 and 7 are ignored.
---------------------------------------

3.) When He returns and changes our bodies to be conformed like unto His, the presence of sin will be eliminated in us.

Until that occurs, we walk by faith, not sight.

The penalty, and the power were dealt with on the cross.

The presence will be dealt with when He redeems our bodies (Romans 8:23).

Joel

[Rose]

Paul states that Christ must reign until the last enemy "Death" has been placed under His feet. Hence, sin is supposedly to be "done away with".

OK, my fellow Futurist's who expect a world of perfection. Let me ask you guys a challenging question.

If "Sin" is to be done away with forever, how will YOU be part of a sinless world? If you are sinners now, how will that change at the resurrection? Will you somehow be made into "sinless" creatures?

I've heard the Dispensational myth (since childhood) teach, "we do not know how God will make us into a world/habitation of sinlessness, but we just know it's going to happen..." Oh really?

OK then, if you are sinners now (on this earth, in this physical world of dying people, and people who have died AS SINNERS), what will change your sinful pattern at the resurrection? Will God somehow destroy the sinful nature ONLY by raising you unto eternity? Why not do that now?

Some have answered, "The flesh causes us to sin, so God will give us a new body that will not tempt us, thereby preventing those who have been raised from sinning...." Gee, so God purposely subjected us to earthly bodies of sin, in order to set up a temporary kingdom through which Christians would suffer (for what reason I might ask?), and all so we can wait patiently, and faithfully, to inherit a new body that will keep us from sinning? This is absurd!

Consider this. If our "Bodies" is what causes mankind to sin (and we are all sinners according to nearly every Christian), then how do you explain the devil, or his fallen angels, who never had a body? Hence, if they are sinners WITHOUT the human body, what makes the Futurist's think that they will inherit a sinless world even though they are sinners now? If you are sinners now, what will make you different? And what would give you the right to enter a sinless world, if you are still sinners now? If you sin now, what's to stop you from sinning then?

POINT: To expect a future world where sinning is impossible, is to blame our shortfalls on the body, and others. And to teach that a new world is coming when sinning will be stricken, thereby impossible, in order to justify sinning in the flesh at the time being, is false. The only place where sinning does not exist is in Heaven (the Barn). The earth is a field for growing crops, thus it's only natural to find imperfections there. Just a the farmer removes the imperfect vegetation from the field, and takes the perfect fruits into his barn, so too does God reap us, to be taken into the Barn. Hence, the earth will always have imperfection, but heaven won't.

Sister Rose rightly states that Christ done away with sin, and the power of sin, by His sacrifice on the cross. This does not "FORCE" us into being righteous, but it inspires us (through the Spirit) to say no to sin, and yes to holiness. And by training ourselves to live righteously, we are being prepared to abide in the eternal habitation, IN HEAVEN, where every risen Saint has lived since the day God raised them from Hades. This began in the first century, and has continued to happen since that time. For prior to Christ, all who died (good or bad) were kept in Hades, with the exception of those whom God raised immediately. For example, Moses was probably raised, and Satan protested to God because of this. Satan new that Moses sinned, and yet Moses was raised. How do we know that Moses was raised? Or even Elijah? They appeared to Christ during the transfiguration. They appeared in their heavenly splendor, just as Christ did after His resurrection.

So, to recap, where does this idea of a sinless world come from? And what makes Futurist's (or any Christian) believe that they will somehow inherit a sinless body and free them from the one they have now? Isn't this the same as blaming our sinning on the body itself? There's no Biblical teaching that tells us our bodies cause sin. That's a Gnostic teaching. Rather our "abuses" of the body formed bad habits which we call sin. Christ came into the world to give us a second chance at life. The condition? Turn away from sinning, and learn to live holy. Thus, His purpose was to "REVERSE" what the Devil had planted; a world of sinning. Jesus came to build a world of righteousness by reversing, and overcoming what Satan had begun. Satan caused sin by allowing it's birth. Jesus, the opposite of what Satan did, caused birth of righteousness in order to "clean up the mess" that Satan created.

Since the first century, death has been defeated. But those who choose to remain in sin, and thus lose their souls, remain in a state of death. The only way to freedom from death is through Christ, who defeated death, and has the power and victory over death.

IS DEATH STILL REIGNING IN POWER UNTIL CHRIST DEFEATS IT?

No! It is not, according to His very own words:

Revelation 1:18

18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

Death no longer has mastery over us who have been called into His kingdom of righteousness. And as the Messiah Himself states, "I have the key...of death", thus indicating that He placed death under the soles of His feet.....in short, HE'S THE BOSS! Death is not the boss. So Paul's statement, "He must reign until He has subjected all enemies under His feet; the last being death..." is obviously fulfilled, or else Christ CANNOT be master, even of death. Yet He states that HE IS the boss of death for He has the keys.

Paul's statement is fulfilled....

What say you all? :sSW_saberfight2:

Joe

Excellent post Joe, :clap2:

Revelation gives us the perfect picture of sin's existence under the New Covenant, where we see the presence of sin outside the gates of the New Jerusalem, but those gates are always open for anyone who thirsts to enter in and drink of the living water. This shows us with perfect clarity that sin is always waiting at the gate, but Christs sacrifice has made a way for us to break the bondage of sin and enter into His presence.
.
Rev.21:25-27 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Rev.22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.....17)And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.


Rose

[TheForgiven]

Excellent post Joe,

Revelation gives us the perfect picture of sin's existence under the New Covenant, where we see the presence of sin outside the gates of the New Jerusalem, but those gates are always open for anyone who thirsts to enter in and drink of the living water. This shows us with perfect clarity that sin is always waiting at the gate, but Christs sacrifice has made a way for us to break the bondage of sin and enter into His presence.
.

Rev.21:25-27 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Rev.22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.....17)And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.


Rose

Precisely sister Rose! :thumb: God never promised an earth of sinless existence, as is taught by the Futurist paradigm. Instead, He promised a world which possessed many righteous. The purpose of the "many righteous"? To serve as lamps to those who abide in darkness. It is hoped that through our lights that shine in a dark world, we shine as living examples of holiness, in order to attract those who have been called into His eternal kingdom of light.....i.e., the Church.

Even though we exist on this world, spiritually, our presence is with the Lord within the Gates of the New Jerusalem. And while we abide on this earth, like seeds who have been planted, we await to grow into maturity, wherein we are prepared for entrance into eternity, in the heavens, where abides all the risen souls who reside in the presence of the Lord. Thus, whether we are here on this earth, or taken into the barn (heaven), we abide with the Lord. All others remain outside of the Gates of the New Jerusalem; their sin keeps them separated. That is why John sees the existence of sin EVEN outside the Gates of the New Jerusalem; those within the Gates are the righteous.

Brother Joel is correct about sinning being dealt with by the cross of Christ. Where he is wrong is he believes that one day sinners will be removed forever, and both heaven and earth will not have sinners. Obviously that is wrong because EVEN in the New Heaven, and New Earth, sinners still exist.

OUTSIDE THE GATES - sinners
INSIDE THE GATES - righteous

There's no biblical support for a New Heaven and New Earth that ONLY posses the righteous.

Lastly, Joel's post teaches that resurrected Saints will not be able to sin because the essence of sin will be removed; as though that is the reason why we sin. This error creates an excuse for sinning, which we have none. No one can blame anyone or anything for sinning. Look at Jesus; He was beat, flogged, smacked, spat upon, and crucified, yet He was without sin. This happened so that He could become the first born from the dead, and have preeminence above all. Thus all who come to Him, and learn from his Yoke, are being actively conformed to His life style, and example of righteousness. Thus, we are not AUTOMATICALLY made holy simply by His will. Rather, we are called to live holy lives as is taught by the Holy Spirit. In this way are we being prepared for eternity.

In short, there's no such thing as automated holiness merely because you are resurrected. To think such a belief is flawed in that Satan, who never possessed a human body, was/is a sinner; he and his fallen angels, and all who live as he does/did.

If sin is so bad in this world, I'd like to know what the Futurist's are doing about it? Or even believe what should be done about it? Obviously you can do nothing except live as quiet and submissive children of light, so that the children of darkness may one day follow your example.

This concerns me greatly because Calvinists teach that sinners are made holy simply by the blood, but they neglect the more important aspect of being saved...our sanctification through the work (instruction/lessons) of the Holy Spirit. The blood of Christ purifies us from all sin, but the Spirit of Christ teaches us to deny sin and ungodly lusts. In this way is mankind being prepared unto eternity, and NOT through a magical hocus pocus resurrection where we transition from sinners to holiness. I suppose you could claim that Futurist's, and perhaps even Preterists, believe that sinless behavior can only cease at the resurrection....FALSE! :nono:

If you sin now, you will most certainly sin then. Sin is caused by the unclean habits we learn from youth...not from some mystified inheritance of Adam's sin. That's a flawed teaching. Adam gave birth to sin, but Christ gave birth to righteousness. When sin was born, mankind learn to become sinners because sin infected the lifestyles of man through the knowledge of good and evil; we call this temptation. Temptation can only come through knowledge; for without the knowledge of sin, one can never be tempted. Jesus gave birth to righteousness, so that just as Adam's sin spread unto all mankind, the Messiah's righteousness may also spread unto all mankind, so that instead of choosing to live by our lustful temptations, we may choose the path of righteousness, through His Spirit who abides in us. That's the difference between Adam's sin, and Christ's righteousness. Both were born, and both spread unto all. But praise be to God who has given us His Kingdom of righteousness that abounds unto all the earth.

Sinners may exist, but grace abounds all the more. From one new moon to the next, the city will always have light, and it's light will never be darkened....he who can hear, let him be blessed.

Joe

[joel]

Wow! Joe! I think you really drew a line in the sand in that post.

1.) Did I hear you say.......that the resurrection that is impending will not put us into new bodies; immortal, and uncorruptible?

2.) Sin is the result of our bad habits.........and not the result of the bodies which we obtain from Adam?
---------------------------------------
1.)......is addressed by Paul in I Corinthians where he clearly says that our bodies will transformed to be like His body.

2.).....is clearly addressed in Romans 5 where Paul teaches that sin and death came into the kosmos through Adam.......and continue to reign as long as Adam still lives through his progeny. But Christ has gained the victory over both and we should know it, reckon it, and yeild as Paul sets out in his teaching.

I never knew until now just how far apart our beliefs really are.........

Joel

[TheForgiven]

Wow! Joe! I think you really drew a line in the sand in that post.

1.) Did I hear you say.......that the resurrection that is impending will not put us into new bodies; immortal, and uncorruptible?


No sir, that is not what I said. My point wasn't an incorruptible body from heaven. My point was that sinners now, are sinners then if they do not change their life style. If you sin now, in our earthly bodies, what makes you believe that you will not, or cannot sin in the heavenly body? Sinning is not a result of the body, but of behavior. Christ came into this world to change our behavior, from that of darkness into light; from sin into righteousness; for living of death, to life eternal.


2.) Sin is the result of our bad habits.........and not the result of the bodies which we obtain from Adam?

Adam's sin did not cause you or I to sin. You do not inherit someone else's mistakes. If our forefathers were charged guilty of stealing, did stealing somehow become your inherited nature? Of course not. As the scripture says, "The soul who sins will die....." Scripture does not say that the soul is born into sinning. That's the same as saying that children are automatically sinners by birth. The "original sin" doctrine teaches that sinning is a human nature born from Adam by some sort of magical spell or something. That is totally false. Adam gave "BIRTH" to sin. That's all he did. He did not "CAUSE" mankind to sin, as though sin were passed down genetically or something. Adam gave birth to sin. But Jesus gave birth to righteousness. Paul makes this very clear in the letter to the Romans. He used this analogy to explain how salvation works. Adams birth of sin spread like a disease. By the knowledge of good and evil, man was forced into choosing between good and evil. Through temptation, caused by this knowledge (knowing right and wrong), sin is at the door and desires to have you. But as God told Cain, "But you must master it/overcome it". Practice; that's the only way to overcome sin; we are cleansed of sin by His blood, but we are trained to repent of sin by practicing via the Holy Spirit's guidance and instruction; this is called walking by faith, knowing that a tablet of laws written on paper cannot instruct us. Instead, we believe that (through faith), Christ speaks to us through His Inspiration of the mind. That is what "Spirit" means...to inspire.

---------------------------------------

1.)......is addressed by Paul in I Corinthians where he clearly says that our bodies will transformed to be like His body.

We shall bear his Image; there is a difference. Notice Paul also says, "though our outward man is decaying [every day], our inward man is being renewed every day...." This means that it's what's inside that counts; not outside. You place emphasis on the "Outward", while we place the truth on what really counts; the inward man. The body is just a temple; an abode for the spirit inside of us. If we cannot resist sin, then that is because our outward man fights against the earthly mans nature. When Paul says, "sinful nature", he's not referring to "flesh", as the NIV Bible interprets. He's referring to the sinful habits/nature we learned since our youth. But we must be trained to practice holiness, and put on the divine nature (holy living). The inward man (spirit) must be renewed, through the retraining of our minds into His mind, so that when we are ready, we shall be given new tents, kept in Heaven in store for us.

Finally, Paul states, "For to be absent from the [earthly] body is to be at home with the Lord...."

and again:

2 Corinthians 5:1
For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.


2.).....is clearly addressed in Romans 5 where Paul teaches that sin and death came into the kosmos through Adam.......and continue to reign as long as Adam still lives through his progeny. But Christ has gained the victory over both and we should know it, reckon it, and yeild as Paul sets out in his teaching.

That is the same thing I stated. Adam gave "birth" to sin by disobedience. This example of disobedience spread to the rest of the world, from one generation to the next, thereby making all men sinners because they were contaminated by what was born. Jesus, on the other hand, reversed this by giving birth to righteousness. For as the scripture says, "There is no one righteous, not even one....for all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory.." Thus, Christ is the first to be righteous, and He thus gave birth to righteousness. So just as Adam's sinned reigned in death, the birth of Christ's righteousness reigns unto eternal life, but only through Christ Jesus.

Now, let me ask you. Are you a sinner? No doubt you would answer yes. So I then ask you, "what can keep you from sinning when you are resurrected after death?" Are you willing to take full responsibility for your sins? Or are you pawning your faults on a mystical sin called original sin, as though the fault is not yours.

If you lie, was it sin that made you do it? Or did you merely learn how to lie? And if you learned how to lie, do you feel that it's impossible to reverse that? The answer is yes. For the Spirit of Christ compels you to tell the truth. But your bodily members, because of bad habits, fights against your spirit and wants you to lie, perhaps because of anger, or fear. But ask the Master, for he was found with no lie. Yet He came into the world to teach you and me not to lie. For lying dishonors all others, whether close or far. And to lie is the opposite of love, and is against all that is part of love. As Peter states, "Love covers a multitude of sins....", meaning that perfect love drives away fear because they have nothing to fear about. Those who fear have sin in their lives that has not yet been dealt with.

If you commit adultery, be it physically or emotionally, was it something that caused you to commit adultery? Or did you learn adultery by temptation? You cannot claim that Adam made you commit adultery (speaking hypothetically now, for I do not know if you committed adultery or not).

Have you ever hated someone? If so, what this hate automatically instilled in you by birth, through Adam? Or did you learn to hate once you knew what hate was?

You, my friend, did not, and are not, a sinner because of genetics, or mystical inheritance from Adam's sin. You became a sinner because of what you learned since youth. The purpose of Christ is to not only forgive our short falls, but to turn our hearts away from it. If you once hated, Christ now tells you not to hate. If you once had murder in your heart, Christ tells you to master that temptation, and turn away from it.

Titus 2:

11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

Paul states this to Titus, instructing them to turn away from falsehood, and live Holy lives as they awaited the coming of Christ, which we all know happened in 70AD.

SUMMARY

Children are not born sinners; they learn it. But through the grace and instruction of Christ, they may learn to become righteous. Calvinism is a dangerous theology because it does not teach to turn away from sin; it excuses sin, and teaches people to wait for the Lord's return before they can truly repent from sin. THEN, and ONLY THEN (according to their teaching) will you be sinless. That is the danger of Calvinists, as well as Futurist's, who neglect the Kingdom of Christ, and teach that the true Kingdom is yet to come. Although their intension's may be honest, their students drop out of Church because they believe that sinning will not end until they are resurrected. And when they drop out, they begin to doubt their salvation, and make excuses for themselves. THIS is called "passing the buck" on someone, or something else. The end usually results in a perpetual backsliding until eventually, when sin has conceived and become fully grown, it results in death....spiritual death of the member once risen to new life. Can this person be brought back? Only the person himself, or herself, can answer that. Just ask (if it were possible) those who'd bodies died in the wilderness after being baptized by Moses, through the cloud and the sea. Their disobedience was not left unpunished, and their bodies died by the thousands. We too have had the gospel of grace preached to us, and we too passed through the cloud and through the sea. Yet if we choose to turn our hearts back to Egypt, or take a dip in the mud we were once cleansed from, or return to the vomit we thew up, then we, like them, shall be destroyed. So, were they disobedient because of Adam's sin? If so, then how can God destroy someone for something caused by another? Or "Where is the God of justice?"

Nay.....

Ezekiel 18:4
“ Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.

Joe

[CWH]

Hi Joe,

Thanks for the post, I would say that I agree with some of your insights but I would like you to answer a few questions before I tell you about the plan of God. The paln is simple yet preterist makes it so complicated.

1) Why did God put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden to tempt Eve and Adam?

2) Why did God destroyed mankind with the Great Flood?

3) Why did God chose Noah and his family to populate the earth after the Great Flood?

4) Why did'nt God sent HIs Son much earlier to sacrifice for the sins of the whiole wide world say 1,000 years earlier in BC 1000?

5) Why did God want to destroy His own Temple and HIs city, Jerusalem in AD 70?

6) What was Jesus trying to tell us about these parables:

Matthew 12:31He told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field. 32Though it is the smallest of all your seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and perch in its branches."
33He told them still another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into a large amount[b] of flour until it worked all through the dough."

34Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable. 35So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet:
"I will open my mouth in parables,
I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world."[c]

The Parable of the Weeds Explained
36Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field."
37He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

40"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

The Parables of the Hidden Treasure and the Pearl
44"The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy went and sold all he had and bought that field.
45"Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant looking for fine pearls. 46When he found one of great value, he went away and sold everything he had and bought it.

The Parable of the Net
47"Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 18:2He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 18:5"And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. 6But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

7) What does Jesus mean by destroy both body and soul in hell?

Matthew 10:28Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

8) What happened to those thrown into the lake of fire?

Revelation 20:13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

8) What did jesus mean by "13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End".

Revelation 22:12"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

9) Are those souls outside the gate of the New Heaven and new Earth there forever? What are they waiting for...the gate to open and then rush in? What are they doing outside the gate of New heaven and the new earth, continue to practice their magic arts, sexually immorality, murdering, worship idols and practices falsehood?

14"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood".

Many Blessings to you.

[TheForgiven]

Hi Joe,

Thanks for the post, I would say that I agree with some of your insights but I would like you to answer a few questions before I tell you about the plan of God. The paln is simple yet preterist makes it so complicated.

I do not believe it is difficult at all brother Cheow. You just have to learn to separate the physical from the spiritual. God often relays physical truths in the form of spiritual truths. He uses pictures and metaphors to explain the spiritual Kingdom. The Church is a physical kingdom of Christ, but its practices are based from the Spirit.

You've presented a long post of questions, and I'll answer them as best as I can. But to prevent a lengthy post, I'll keep my answers short, and you may choose which answer you with to discuss. :winking0071:


1) Why did God put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden to tempt Eve and Adam?

If I were to build a robot that I wanted to build a relationship with, would I program how I'd want it to behave? Not necessarily because you cannot establish a relationship with something programed. Adam and Eve were by nature without knowledge; they only knew what was instinctive based on their original state of creation. Because they did not know how to choose between right and wrong, they would not know how to say no to sin, any less than an infant could refuse to sin. And sin is not imputed without prior knowledge. Adam and Eve, although adult in size (so we think) were much like infants, knowing only what to do by instinct.


2) Why did God destroyed mankind with the Great Flood?

Because the spirits of man had grown evil having been corrupted hearts of lust and greed. Additionally, it also served as a picture of how God would clean the world through His Spirit, as well as His blood on the cross.


3) Why did God chose Noah and his family to populate the earth after the Great Flood?

To rebuild the earth with the righteous, even though sin would once again multiply. It is also a picture of who God accepts, and whom He rejects.


4) Why did'nt God sent HIs Son much earlier to sacrifice for the sins of the whiole wide world say 1,000 years earlier in BC 1000?

Only He would know that answer. But I'd say, according to Paul, the time was right in order to declare His wonders to the world that God was subjecting all nations under sin so that all would not be able to stand before God and claim that they were without any sin. He chose the Hebrews to establish a covenant relationship with them. And the world, through them, would come to know God. One tactic He used was jealousy.


5) Why did God want to destroy His own Temple and HIs city, Jerusalem in AD 70?

Because that wasn't the true temple He had planned. He used the physical temple and city to paint a picture of the Church; the true temple and city which John calls the New Jerusalem. Plus, God knew that even His own chosen race would grow corrupt and turn the temple of God into a Gentile form of worship, focusing on wealth accumulated from temple market sales. The Jews used the beauty of the temple to attract the rest of the world. Titus, although at war with the Jews, fought to save the temple and prevent its destruction. He didn't care about them, but he loved the temple. Previously, before Titus, foreign kings who conquered Israel, and sacked Jerusalem, also fell in love with the temple; at least what was inside the temple; the gold, silver, precious wood, and articles used for ceremonial worship. This was all very attractive to them. That is why John was shown a vision of Babylon the great (False Jews) would mourn their loss of all the temple items they profited from.

I'll answer the rest on another post.

God bless.

Joe

[TheForgiven]

6) What was Jesus trying to tell us about these parables:



Matthew 12:31He told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field. 32Though it is the smallest of all your seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and perch in its branches."

The seed represents children filled with faith. Even though children of faith represent a small number at the start (as pictured by the smallest of seeds), yet it grows taller than any other crop or tree. The birds of the air looking for rest in its branches represents lost children who wander around looking for a place to rest from the hardship of life. The "tall tree" represents the Church.

In the beginning, the infant Church was very small. But in a short period of time, it grew so large that not even the mighty Roman Empire was able to subdue it. The Church (kingdom of Christ/Heaven) outgrew all the other kingdoms, as was shown to Daniel the prophet.


33He told them still another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into a large amount[b] of flour until it worked all through the dough."

A small bit of righteousness even from one person can influence and work its way through the unrighteous. When it has completed its course, a large handful of sinners can be influenced by tiny amount of Christians.


34Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable. 35So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet:
"I will open my mouth in parables,
I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world."[c]

This was to fulfill Isaiah's prophesy about the spirit of stupor. This was part of God's plan in showing the Gentiles that they too were sinful, and in need of salvation. That is why salvation was first preached to them, yet many of them maintained a spirit of stupor because of their hardened condition as caused by their sinning. Thus, when the message of grace went to the Gentiles, some of them would repent, and turn to be healed, and their eyes opened. It was all a way of gaining children from all nations, that way one nation COULD NOT and WOULD NOT boast over the other.


The Parable of the Weeds Explained
36Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field."
37He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

This parable need not be explained with regards to the condition of each person who hears the word of God. I'm sure the the part you have in question is the harvest. As you know the Harvest occurred near 70AD, probably before. The end of the Age happened in 70AD, which forever done away with the first age of the old covenant, in order to establish forever, the perpetual age of God's Kingdom.


40"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

This happened in 70AD to the Jews, but also to the Roman Kingdom even after 70AD. In fact, you could say that the Harvest brought about the end of the first Age (Old Covenant), and the harvest continues throughout all generations during our eternal Age.


The Parables of the Hidden Treasure and the Pearl
44"The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy went and sold all he had and bought that field.

Short and simple. A person who finds God and His Kingdom devotes his/her entire life to God, and counts all of his possessions as rubbish. When a young man falls in love for the first time, often times, he will buy his new found love anything he can to please her. The same with someone who finds God and His beloved Kingdom as His first and foremost love; he does all that he can to please God.


The Parable of the Net
47"Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Perfect picture of 70AD. The fist represents the souls of man; some Saints and some sinners. When the Harvest fell upon Apostate Israel, and even Rome, the sinners were left to be killed by the fires. Jerusalem was destroyed in the great fire that not only destroyed the temple, but much of Israel as well as there were fires all over.

Rome suffered disasters as well, both by war and by natural causes.


Matthew 18:2He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

This means to humble yourself as a child, willing to learn and innocent when it comes to sinning. For children often sin by mistake, and not by will. This enables them to learn from their mistakes, correct their mistakes, and grow into a mature man.


Matthew 18:5"And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. 6But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

This is simply stating that anyone who "causes" a child of God (especially young children) to sin, will likewise be punished. Now its interesting that Jesus used the metaphor of the millstone and the sea. The millstone is huge and heavy, and the sea is where one would drown. Jesus could have said "rock" instead of millstone, but I believe he was referring to the false Jews. The sea represents the Gentiles. So Christ was saying that those who cause a child of God to sin (possibly from persecution) may as well be cast away from Israel, and drown within the Gentile nations. That is in fact what happened to Israel of the flesh. Because they persecuted the saints of God without reason, they (Apostate Israel) were forced out of Israel and tossed into the sea (Gentile nations), NEVER to be found again. This ties hand in hand with the harvest.


7) What does Jesus mean by destroy both body and soul in hell?

That's just how you are reading it. Jesus can destroy the body, and soul in hell. Not both in hell, but the body (on earth), and the soul (in hell).


8) What happened to those thrown into the lake of fire?

Revelation 20:13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

I believe they are killed in Hell. I do not believe they burn forever and ever, as is often taught by most. But if you read certain passages in the Bible, it doesn't describe hell as an eternal burning. God is a loving God, and no amount of sinning is worth eternal burning without death. Hell is called the second death. Thus, they are done away with forever.


8) What did jesus mean by "13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End".

That should be easy right? Alpha is the first letter of the Greek language, and Omega is the last. What he starts, He finishes. That is what this expression means. There's no need to define "The end" as the end of the world. I get the sense that Futurist's will believe that the "Alpha" represents Him building the world, and the "Omega" represents Him destroying the world. That, my friend, is reading into the text what the text does not say; not saying you believe this but that is what most Futurist's believe about this passage.


Revelation 22:12"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

That was a promise to the early Church.


9) Are those souls outside the gate of the New Heaven and new Earth there forever? What are they waiting for...the gate to open and then rush in? What are they doing outside the gate of New heaven and the new earth, continue to practice their magic arts, sexually immorality, murdering, worship idols and practices falsehood?

Those represent souls who have not yet been saved. Remember, this is a New Heaven AND a New Earth. The government exists in heaven, and the kingdom it rules is on the earth. The New Jerusalem exists ON THE EARTH, as the Church. Those inside the Church (part of the Church) are inside the Gates. Those who refuse to join the Church remain outside the Gates.


14"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood".

Many Blessings to you.
Reply With Quote

Those who come to Christ, and acknowledge Him as Lord, are given new robes (spiritual that is), indicating that they are cleaned. Then they enter into the Church and become part of the tree of life. The tree stands for family, like the mustard seed that grows into a large tree. In short, the sinners abide outside the Church, while forgiven sinners enter into the Church through the Gates. The gates represent all the different Jews who were chosen by God; These represented the Apostles, the disciples based on the 12 Tribes, etc. The rest of the New Jerusalem represented children born into the Kingdom from the Gentile nations that made up the early church.

Now here's my question to you. Why does the New Jerusalem have a size limitation? Why is it only 1,500 miles tall, wide, and long? Why not the entire earth?

Joe

[CWH]

Here's my full answers to you Joe (in red):

Quote:
1) Why did God put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden to tempt Eve and Adam?
If I were to build a robot that I wanted to build a relationship with, would I program how I'd want it to behave? Not necessarily because you cannot establish a relationship with something programed. Adam and Eve were by nature without knowledge; they only knew what was instinctive based on their original state of creation. Because they did not know how to choose between right and wrong, they would not know how to say no to sin, any less than an infant could refuse to sin. And sin is not imputed without prior knowledge. Adam and Eve, although adult in size (so we think) were much like infants, knowing only what to do by instinct.
Wrong, Adam and Eve were given the decision to decide, that was why they were not robots but humans. God wanted to know if their decision was towards good or towards evil. God also wanted to test them to see if they obey Him or obey Satan.

Quote:
2) Why did God destroyed mankind with the Great Flood?
Because the spirits of man had grown evil having been corrupted hearts of lust and greed. Additionally, it also served as a picture of how God would clean the world through His Spirit, as well as His blood on the cross.
Fully Agree.

Quote:
3) Why did God chose Noah and his family to populate the earth after the Great Flood?
To rebuild the earth with the righteous, even though sin would once again multiply. It is also a picture of who God accepts, and whom He rejects.
Fully agree. I would add that righteous people tends to beget righteous offsprings. As God knew that the world he created has the tendency towards evil, having more good righteous people will ensure that the earth will not be so evil again.

Quote:
4) Why did'nt God sent HIs Son much earlier to sacrifice for the sins of the whiole wide world say 1,000 years earlier in BC 1000?
Only He would know that answer. But I'd say, according to Paul, the time was right in order to declare His wonders to the world that God was subjecting all nations under sin so that all would not be able to stand before God and claim that they were without any sin. He chose the Hebrews to establish a covenant relationship with them. And the world, through them, would come to know God. One tactic He used was jealousy.
More likely is that the time was still not ripe in the sense of human population and development to sent His Son yet as He needed the Romans to destroy the Temple and Jerusalem so that the prophesies of Moses and Daniel, Isaiah etc. will be fulfilled and as planned.

Quote:
5) Why did God want to destroy His own Temple and HIs city, Jerusalem in AD 70?
Because that wasn't the true temple He had planned. He used the physical temple and city to paint a picture of the Church; the true temple and city which John calls the New Jerusalem. Plus, God knew that even His own chosen race would grow corrupt and turn the temple of God into a Gentile form of worship, focusing on wealth accumulated from temple market sales. The Jews used the beauty of the temple to attract the rest of the world. Titus, although at war with the Jews, fought to save the temple and prevent its destruction. He didn't care about them, but he loved the temple. Previously, before Titus, foreign kings who conquered Israel, and sacked Jerusalem, also fell in love with the temple; at least what was inside the temple; the gold, silver, precious wood, and articles used for ceremonial worship. This was all very attractive to them. That is why John was shown a vision of Babylon the great (False Jews) would mourn their loss of all the temple items they profited from.
More likely, it was part of the plan of God to punish the Jews for killing the Lord. It is also a plan to disperse the Christians from Jerusalem in AD 70 so that the gospels will spread even faster to the four corners of the earth starting from Jerusalem.

6) What was Jesus trying to tell us about these parables:

Quote:
Matthew 12:31He told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field. 32Though it is the smallest of all your seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and perch in its branches."
The seed represents children filled with faith. Even though children of faith represent a small number at the start (as pictured by the smallest of seeds), yet it grows taller than any other crop or tree. The birds of the air looking for rest in its branches represents lost children who wander around looking for a place to rest from the hardship of life. The "tall tree" represents the Church.
Rubbish. The kingdom of the Christians starts from a small group of apostles which Christ (the man) had started. Christianity will grow in size and becomes the largest religion of the world so that many people will know the truth and believe in Him so that they could have the chance of eternal life to enjoy the company with God.

In the beginning, the infant Church was very small. But in a short period of time, it grew so large that not even the mighty Roman Empire was able to subdue it. The Church (kingdom of Christ/Heaven) outgrew all the other kingdoms, as was shown to Daniel the prophet.
Agree.

Quote:
33He told them still another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into a large amount of flour until it worked all through the dough."
A small bit of righteousness even from one person can influence and work its way through the unrighteous. When it has completed its course, a large handful of sinners can be influenced by tiny amount of Christians.
Agree, I would add that the woman was Christ who started Christianity with a small group of apostles and grow into what it is today.

Quote:
34Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable. 35So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet:
"I will open my mouth in parables,
I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world."[c]
This was to fulfill Isaiah's prophesy about the spirit of stupor. This was part of God's plan in showing the Gentiles that they too were sinful, and in need of salvation. That is why salvation was first preached to them, yet many of them maintained a spirit of stupor because of their hardened condition as caused by their sinning. Thus, when the message of grace went to the Gentiles, some of them would repent, and turn to be healed, and their eyes opened. It was all a way of gaining children from all nations, that way one nation COULD NOT and WOULD NOT boast over the other.
Good. Agree.

Quote:
The Parable of the Weeds Explained
36Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field."
37He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
This parable need not be explained with regards to the condition of each person who hears the word of God. I'm sure the the part you have in question is the harvest. As you know the Harvest occurred near 70AD, probably before. The end of the Age happened in 70AD, which forever done away with the first age of the old covenant, in order to establish forever, the perpetual age of God's Kingdom.
Rubbish. As God is looking for righteous people (as in the case of Noah and his family to populate the world) for His Kingdom. He will gather these group of righteous good people at the end of creation.

Quote:
40"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
This happened in 70AD to the Jews, but also to the Roman Kingdom even after 70AD. In fact, you could say that the Harvest brought about the end of the first Age (Old Covenant), and the harvest continues throughout all generations during our eternal Age.
Rubbish. As God is looking for righteous good people for HIs Kingdom, He will gather those who are evil and wicked and punish them. The righteous will then "shine" in the Kingdom of heaven. Do you understand the hidden meaning of the parable?


Quote:
The Parables of the Hidden Treasure and the Pearl
44"The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy went and sold all he had and bought that field.
Short and simple. A person who finds God and His Kingdom devotes his/her entire life to God, and counts all of his possessions as rubbish. When a young man falls in love for the first time, often times, he will buy his new found love anything he can to please her. The same with someone who finds God and His beloved Kingdom as His first and foremost love; he does all that he can to please God.
More likely is that the Kingdom of the Christians is like a gold mine. When God finds someone with the righteous, good character for His Kingdom, he will focus on him and will be very glad to do His best to bring him over to His Kingdom.

Quote:
The Parable of the Net
47"Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Perfect picture of 70AD. The fist represents the souls of man; some Saints and some sinners. When the Harvest fell upon Apostate Israel, and even Rome, the sinners were left to be killed by the fires. Jerusalem was destroyed in the great fire that not only destroyed the temple, but much of Israel as well as there were fires all over.
Rome suffered disasters as well, both by war and by natural causes.
Rubbish. The Kingdom of heaven is like a net to get people. When the appropriate time is up and the amount of people is right, the fishermen(angels) will separate the good righteous people and remove the bad evil people at the end of creation.

Quote:
Matthew 18:2He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
This means to humble yourself as a child, willing to learn and innocent when it comes to sinning. For children often sin by mistake, and not by will. This enables them to learn from their mistakes, correct their mistakes, and grow into a mature man.
Not bad, somewhat agree but more likely what Jesus meant is that children are quite innocent by nature and tends not to think and do evil. Unless one think and do no evil, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. Therefore, whoever humbles himself, innocent, think no evil, do no evil, is the greatest in the kingdom of God.

Quote:
Matthew 18:5"And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. 6But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
This is simply stating that anyone who "causes" a child of God (especially young children) to sin, will likewise be punished. Now its interesting that Jesus used the metaphor of the millstone and the sea. The millstone is huge and heavy, and the sea is where one would drown. Jesus could have said "rock" instead of millstone, but I believe he was referring to the false Jews. The sea represents the Gentiles. So Christ was saying that those who cause a child of God to sin (possibly from persecution) may as well be cast away from Israel, and drown within the Gentile nations. That is in fact what happened to Israel of the flesh. Because they persecuted the saints of God without reason, they (Apostate Israel) were forced out of Israel and tossed into the sea (Gentile nations), NEVER to be found again. This ties hand in hand with the harvest.
Somewhat agree. The harvest will be at the end of creation.

Quote:
7) What does Jesus mean by destroy both body and soul in hell?
That's just how you are reading it. Jesus can destroy the body, and soul in hell. Not both in hell, but the body (on earth), and the soul (in hell).
Agree...which confirms that God can [B]destroy totally both body and soul.

Quote:
8) What happened to those thrown into the lake of fire?

Revelation 20:13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
I believe they are killed in Hell. I do not believe they burn forever and ever, as is often taught by most. But if you read certain passages in the Bible, it doesn't describe hell as an eternal burning. God is a loving God, and no amount of sinning is worth eternal burning without death. Hell is called the second death. Thus, they are done away with forever.
Somewhat agree. the evil incorrigibles will be totally destroyed.

Quote:
8) What did jesus mean by "13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End".
That should be easy right? Alpha is the first letter of the Greek language, and Omega is the last. What he starts, He finishes. That is what this expression means. There's no need to define "The end" as the end of the world. I get the sense that Futurist's will believe that the "Alpha" represents Him building the world, and the "Omega" represents Him destroying the world. That, my friend, is reading into the text what the text does not say; not saying you believe this but that is what most Futurist's believe about this passage.
Alpha means the creation of the world and Omega means the end of creation and then a new creation will commence. Jesus has the means to create the world and he has the means to end the world.

Quote:
Revelation 22:12"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
That was a promise to the early Church.
Nope. That is the promise that Christianity under the leadership of Christ is coming soon which will provide eternal life for those who believe in Him and his teachings. This is the promise to every believing Christians throughout all ages.

Quote:
9) Are those souls outside the gate of the New Heaven and new Earth there forever? What are they waiting for...the gate to open and then rush in? What are they doing outside the gate of New heaven and the new earth, continue to practice their magic arts, sexually immorality, murdering, worship idols and practices falsehood?
Those represent souls who have not yet been saved. Remember, this is a New Heaven AND a New Earth. The government exists in heaven, and the kingdom it rules is on the earth. The New Jerusalem exists ON THE EARTH, as the Church. Those inside the Church (part of the Church) are inside the Gates. Those who refuse to join the Church remain outside the Gates.
Rubbish. Those waiting outside the gates of the new heaven and new earth are either awaiting judgement or were the less evil, corrigible ones who will be given a chance to repent and enter into the new heaven and the new earth. They have no chance to practice the evils outside the gates of the new heaven and the new earth.

Quote:
14"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood".

Reply With Quote
Those who come to Christ, and acknowledge Him as Lord, are given new robes (spiritual that is), indicating that they are cleaned. Then they enter into the Church and become part of the tree of life. The tree stands for family, like the mustard seed that grows into a large tree. In short, the sinners abide outside the Church, while forgiven sinners enter into the Church through the Gates. The gates represent all the different Jews who were chosen by God; These represented the Apostles, the disciples based on the 12 Tribes, etc. The rest of the New Jerusalem represented children born into the Kingdom from the Gentile nations that made up the early church.
More likely it means that those who repents and becomes righteous will have the right to enter into the gates of the new heaven and the new earth.

Now here's my question to you. Why does the New Jerusalem have a size limitation? Why is it only 1,500 miles tall, wide, and long? Why not the entire earth?
Because there are not so many who will inherit the New Jerusalem; "the gates are wide but few will enter".

The plan of God is simple:
1. God created the world in order to get righteous men for His Kingdom
2. He will destroy evil people during the course of earth's history so that righteous will eventually reign
3. Once the appropriate time is up at the end of creation, He will gather those who are good and righteous for His Kingdom and He will punish those who are evil.
4. Those who are evil and incorrigible will be destroyed forever. 5. Those who are less evil but corrigible will be given another chance to repent.
6. Those who are good and righteous will enter into His Kingdom.
7. Those who are good and righteous that enters into the Kingdom of God will be retested and refined again at the end of the 1,000 year reign thus ushering the total defeat of evil.

Many Blessings.

[TheForgiven]

Greetings brother Cheow. I'll just respond to the answers you objected to.

Here's my full answers to you Joe (in red):



1) Why did God put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden to tempt Eve and Adam?

If I were to build a robot that I wanted to build a relationship with, would I program how I'd want it to behave? Not necessarily because you cannot establish a relationship with something programed. Adam and Eve were by nature without knowledge; they only knew what was instinctive based on their original state of creation. Because they did not know how to choose between right and wrong, they would not know how to say no to sin, any less than an infant could refuse to sin. And sin is not imputed without prior knowledge. Adam and Eve, although adult in size (so we think) were much like infants, knowing only what to do by instinct

Wrong, Adam and Eve were given the decision to decide, that was why they were not robots but humans. God wanted to know if their decision was towards good or towards evil. God also wanted to test them to see if they obey Him or obey Satan.

Not necessarily. Remember, they were "dooped" into sinning because Satan tricked them. Had they already been given the knowledge of good and evil, I'm more than certain the outcome would have been different. Satan told them, "For if you eat of this fruit, you will become like God...." So, like young minds, they did not understand what Satan was talking about; they assumed he was telling them that they would literally be like God. But he hid the truth that they would indeed be as God, having the knowledge of good and evil. This is easily proved right because after the ate, they realized they were naked. Whereas before, they did not know they were naked. It wasn't the fact that they were naked that made them sin, but more than likely, they became attracted to each other, and were ashamed of being naked.

In short, when they ate of the apple, they disobeyed God, resulting in sins birth. Then, when they realized they were naked, shame entered into their hearts, probably for the same reason we react towards nakedness; with lust and desire (this is just a hypothesis). Thus, they clothed themselves with leaves.


6) What was Jesus trying to tell us about these parables:

Quote:

Matthew 12:31He told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field. 32Though it is the smallest of all your seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and perch in its branches."

The seed represents children filled with faith. Even though children of faith represent a small number at the start (as pictured by the smallest of seeds), yet it grows taller than any other crop or tree. The birds of the air looking for rest in its branches represents lost children who wander around looking for a place to rest from the hardship of life. The "tall tree" represents the Church.

Rubbish. The kingdom of the Christians starts from a small group of apostles which Christ (the man) had started. Christianity will grow in size and becomes the largest religion of the world so that many people will know the truth and believe in Him so that they could have the chance of eternal life to enjoy the company with God.


That's the same thing I stated. The infant Church (Apostles and their disciples (remnant) represented the small stump, which eventually grew into a huge tree; the tree represents the family of God through Christ. The birds of the air represent souls who are yearning for a place of rest.



The Parable of the Weeds Explained
36Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field."
37He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

This parable need not be explained with regards to the condition of each person who hears the word of God. I'm sure the the part you have in question is the harvest. As you know the Harvest occurred near 70AD, probably before. The end of the Age happened in 70AD, which forever done away with the first age of the old covenant, in order to establish forever, the perpetual age of God's Kingdom.

Rubbish. As God is looking for righteous people (as in the case of Noah and his family to populate the world) for His Kingdom. He will gather these group of righteous good people at the end of creation.

Well what makes you believe that this hasn't already happened? Did He not separate the sheep (children of Abraham who accepted Christ), from those who claimed to be descendants of Abraham (goats), and destroyed them in the fire? It is because you do not understand the reason Apostate Israel was destroyed that you insist this separation hasn't yet happened. Thus, before you can say my answer is rubbish, why not prove via scripture that this has not yet happened? :winking0071:




40"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

This happened in 70AD to the Jews, but also to the Roman Kingdom even after 70AD. In fact, you could say that the Harvest brought about the end of the first Age (Old Covenant), and the harvest continues throughout all generations during our eternal Age.

Rubbish. As God is looking for righteous good people for HIs Kingdom, He will gather those who are evil and wicked and punish them. The righteous will then "shine" in the Kingdom of heaven. Do you understand the hidden meaning of the parable?

I've already given you the "hidden" meaning. What does it mean, "Shine in the kingdom of heaven?" Are Christians not shining now? Here's a picture for you. The earth has day, and night. At night, the stars the the moon provide light during hours of darkness. How could we see at night if there were no stars at night, and no moon as well? It'd be very difficult to see; of course we have electricity to provide us light, but I'm speaking in Biblical terms.

The moon represents Israel, and the stars represent children of God. The world has darkness throughout all the nations. It is we (stars) who provide light to a dark world, and it is the moon (Church/Israel of God) that reflects the light of God to a dark world.

THAT is what is meant by shining in the kingdom of God. The Kingdom is the Church of Christ, and has always been the kingdom. John the Baptist exclaims, "REPENT! For the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!" What Kingdom do you suppose he was talking about?



The Parable of the Net
47"Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Perfect picture of 70AD. The fist represents the souls of man; some Saints and some sinners. When the Harvest fell upon Apostate Israel, and even Rome, the sinners were left to be killed by the fires. Jerusalem was destroyed in the great fire that not only destroyed the temple, but much of Israel as well as there were fires all over.

Rome suffered disasters as well, both by war and by natural causes.
Rubbish. The Kingdom of heaven is like a net to get people. When the appropriate time is up and the amount of people is right, the fishermen(angels) will separate the good righteous people and remove the bad evil people at the end of creation.

Isn't that what I stated? Peter was told by Christ, "come with me, and I'll make you fishers of men...." The Apostles preached the gospels, and those who became their disciples (of Christ) were figuratively caught like fish. The separation is the same as the Harvest, which was fulfilled in 70AD. Of course, I know you still reject any biblical implication of the first century (70AD), and you don't appear to understand why this happened.




Quote:
Matthew 18:5"And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. 6But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
This is simply stating that anyone who "causes" a child of God (especially young children) to sin, will likewise be punished. Now its interesting that Jesus used the metaphor of the millstone and the sea. The millstone is huge and heavy, and the sea is where one would drown. Jesus could have said "rock" instead of millstone, but I believe he was referring to the false Jews. The sea represents the Gentiles. So Christ was saying that those who cause a child of God to sin (possibly from persecution) may as well be cast away from Israel, and drown within the Gentile nations. That is in fact what happened to Israel of the flesh. Because they persecuted the saints of God without reason, they (Apostate Israel) were forced out of Israel and tossed into the sea (Gentile nations), NEVER to be found again. This ties hand in hand with the harvest.
Somewhat agree. The harvest will be at the end of creation.


What scriptures do you have to support the "end of creation?" For the Bible states that the world will ensure forever:

78:69
And He built His sanctuary like the heights,Like the earth which He has established forever




8) What did jesus mean by "13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End".
That should be easy right? Alpha is the first letter of the Greek language, and Omega is the last. What he starts, He finishes. That is what this expression means. There's no need to define "The end" as the end of the world. I get the sense that Futurist's will believe that the "Alpha" represents Him building the world, and the "Omega" represents Him destroying the world. That, my friend, is reading into the text what the text does not say; not saying you believe this but that is what most Futurist's believe about this passage.
Alpha means the creation of the world and Omega means the end of creation and then a new creation will commence.
Jesus has the means to create the world and he has the means to end the world.

Obsessed are you? Man you really believe God is going to destroy the earth? He didn't destroy during the flood, so why do you believe He will destroy it with fire? Psalm states that the earth will stand forever, like His Sanctuary.



Revelation 22:12"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
That was a promise to the early Church.

Nope. That is the promise that Christianity under the leadership of Christ is coming soon which will provide eternal life for those who believe in Him and his teachings. This is the promise to every believing Christians throughout all ages.

Oh, so you don't have eternal life now? He told the early churches throughout Asia Minor, "I will spare you from the hour of trail that is about to come upon the whole inhabited earth..." Bro that was more than 2000 years ago. How could He spare them from the hour of trial, if they do not even exist anymore?

I think you're missing something my dearest friend.


Quote:
9) Are those souls outside the gate of the New Heaven and new Earth there forever? What are they waiting for...the gate to open and then rush in? What are they doing outside the gate of New heaven and the new earth, continue to practice their magic arts, sexually immorality, murdering, worship idols and practices falsehood?
Those represent souls who have not yet been saved. Remember, this is a New Heaven AND a New Earth. The government exists in heaven, and the kingdom it rules is on the earth. The New Jerusalem exists ON THE EARTH, as the Church. Those inside the Church (part of the Church) are inside the Gates. Those who refuse to join the Church remain outside the Gates.
[QUOTE]Rubbish. Those waiting outside the gates of the new heaven and new earth are either awaiting judgement or were the less evil, corrigible ones who will be given a chance to repent and enter into the new heaven and the new earth. They have no chance to practice the evils outside the gates of the new heaven and the new earth.

Oh my goodness. Are you sure about that? Let's look at the passage:

Revelation 22:

12 'And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.' 14 Blessed are those who do His commandments,[g] that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie. 16 'I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.' 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, 'Come!' And let him who hears say, 'Come!' And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

Those outside of the gates are the dogs, liars, and murderers, and yet they are given the chance to enter through the gates, "IF THEY THIRST". Jesus said, "Blessed is he who thirsts for righteousness, for they will be filled...."

What you are proposing is an strange world where the New Jerusalem will literally be 1,500 miles tall, wide, and long. Only those who are in Christs will remain inside this literal city. Well then, are you suggesting an eternal world that is so small? Doesn't sound like paradise to me.

The New Jerusalem is the Church my friend. All who are outside the Church remain outside the gates, as established by the Apostles, and their disciples.

I'm going to stop right here because this thread has been severely detracted. Let's get back on topic.

Joe