Where was Jesus between the cross and His resurrection?

[basilfo]

This question came up in a discussion last night, and I wanted to toss it out to you guys. Ephesians 4 seems to be one of the ref's but I think there are others.

Eph 4:8 (NASB) Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN."
9 (Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)

Thanks in advance for any thoughts.

Peace to you,
Dave

[Rose]

This question came up in a discussion last night, and I wanted to toss it out to you guys. Ephesians 4 seems to be one of the ref's but I think there are others.

Eph 4:8 (NASB) Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN."
9 (Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)

Thanks in advance for any thoughts.

Peace to you,
Dave

Hi Dave,

Here is another reference that alludes to the time between the Cross and the Resurrection.

1Pet.18-20 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Rose

[basilfo]

Thanks Rose. That's the verse I was remembering but couldn't find. Can we expand on this a bit? My understanding is that no one went to be with the Father upon physical death under the first covenant sacrificial system because their sin was only "covered" by the blood of animals, not fully paid for. So, if I'm reading the parable of Luke 16 correctly, souls either went to "Abraham's bosom" or Hades.

Are the souls referred to in 1 Peter in Hades or Abraham's bosom?

Thanks again,
Dave

[gregoryfl]

The Peshitta renders 1Pe 3:19 this way:

And he preached to those souls who were held in Sheol.

Since the witness of scripture is that in the old testament times, the body went back to dust, the soul went to sheol, and the spirit went back to God, I believe this is the more accurate understanding of this verse.

Ron

[basilfo]

the soul went to sheol, and the spirit went back to God, .....

Ron

Hi Ron,
Thanks for that insight. I always struggled with the split between the soul and spirit, but I'm learning. If there are 2 separate 'entities' (for lack of a better term) aside from the physical body, and one went to God, and one went to Sheol, in which would the concious reside? IOW, did they understand themselves - to be in Sheol, or with God?

Thanks again Ron - I always appreciate your thoughts.
Dave

[gregoryfl]

Hi Ron,
Thanks for that insight. I always struggled with the split between the soul and spirit, but I'm learning. If there are 2 separate 'entities' (for lack of a better term) aside from the physical body, and one went to God, and one went to Sheol, in which would the concious reside? IOW, did they understand themselves - to be in Sheol, or with God?

Thanks again Ron - I always appreciate your thoughts.
Dave

From what I understand, what is called a soul is not a separate entity, in itself, but is descriptive of the man himself, as either alive or dead. If alive, it means his spirit is within his body. If dead, it means his spirit is not.

The exchange of us/soul and us/body can add to the confusion, for the Hebrew people used both interchangeably. For example:

Job 14:13 "Oh that you would hide me in Sheol, that you would keep me secret, until your wrath is past, that you would appoint me a set time, and remember me!

Psa 16:10 For you will not leave my soul in Sheol, neither will you allow your holy one to see corruption.

Gen 3:19 By the sweat of your face will you eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For you are dust, and to dust you shall return."

Ecc 12:7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Could this mean that to be in the dust of the earth is to be in Sheol?

As to God's presence, David knew that even if he were to make his bed in Sheol, God would be there.

[David M]

Hi all

Time to add to this thread. The problem with threads is that they digress into lots of other areas.

I shall stick to the title of this thread. Where was Jesus between the cross (tree) and the grave.

Lots of interesting discussions come from the Bible yet there are occassions we go to far imagining things that were not.

The teaching from God is that the soul that sinneth dies and goes to the grave the same as the beasts of the field and in the grave their is no remembrance. We might speculate; what exactly is the spirit which both Jesus and the martyr Stephen said; "into Thine hands I commend my Spirit."

As far as the person is concerned who has no memory in the grave stays there and normally will eventually decay. In the three days that Jesus was in the grave, he had no memory, he could not have had any recollection of the time that had passed.

God raised Jesus. God put back the spirit of Jesus into his body. This is no less than what must happen at the ressurrection of the Saints. It does not matter how long a person has been in the grave and whether the body has completely disappeared; the power of God is at work whereby a shell (body) is re-created into which the spirit is returned. There is nothing to say that the spirit has any conciousness while it in the hands of God.

The Apostle Paul likens death to sleep for those who are raised to life. Each nght we go to sleep, we are as good as dead for the time that goes by in which we are not concious and have not awareness of anything. So long as our names are in God's Book of Life whereby your spirit is saved and your likeness preserved, God has the power to do what it takes to raise us to life again.

Some will not see death when Jesus returns and so as Paul says; "in the twinkling of an eye, we shall be changed.." Death is like that, one second we are awake, then we sleep and what seems less than a second we are awake again. Death for the beleivers will be no different.

So, the answer is very simply that Jesus did not go anywhere and he was not concious during the three days in the grave.

David

[Charisma]

These are interesting points:


The Peshitta renders 1Pe 3:19 this way:

And he preached to those souls who were held in Sheol.

Since the witness of scripture is that in the old testament times, the body went back to dust, the soul went to sheol, and the spirit went back to God, I believe this is the more accurate understanding of this verse.


From what I understand, what is called a soul is not a separate entity, in itself, but is descriptive of the man himself, as either alive or dead. If alive, it means his spirit is within his body. If dead, it means his spirit is not.

The exchange of us/soul and us/body can add to the confusion, for the Hebrew people used both interchangeably. For example:

Job 14:13 "Oh that you would hide me in Sheol, that you would keep me secret, until your wrath is past, that you would appoint me a set time, and remember me!

Psa 16:10 For you will not leave my soul in Sheol, neither will you allow your holy one to see corruption.

Gen 3:19 By the sweat of your face will you eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For you are dust, and to dust you shall return."

Ecc 12:7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Could this mean that to be in the dust of the earth is to be in Sheol?

As to God's presence, David knew that even if he were to make his bed in Sheol, God would be there.


Hi David,

I'd like to bring some verses to lay your statements against.


There is nothing to say that the spirit has any conciousness while it in the hands of God.

The Apostle Paul likens death to sleep for those who are raised to life. Each nght we go to sleep, we are as good as dead for the time that goes by in which we are not concious and have not awareness of anything. So long as our names are in God's Book of Life whereby your spirit is saved and your likeness preserved, God has the power to do what it takes to raise us to life again.

Some will not see death when Jesus returns and so as Paul says; "in the twinkling of an eye, we shall be changed.." Death is like that, one second we are awake, then we sleep and what seems less than a second we are awake again. Death for the beleivers will be no different.

So, the answer is very simply that Jesus did not go anywhere and he was not concious during the three days in the grave.
Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

If Jesus is not God, how can He know such things? Who has come back from the dead except from Him, whereby we may compare their experience with His claims? (No-one!) Jesus said, 'I am the Truth', so we have to believe that He is not lying to us about these things.

Mark 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I [am] the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Psalm 22:29 All [they that be] fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul. At what point do they bow? Is it as they die, or, is it at the resurrection?

[Edited by addition below because submitted by accident before finished.]

If you're correct, David, the thing Peter was referring to, which Rose quoted higher up the page, happened after the resurrection? Is that what you believe?

[David M]

Hello Charisma


The Peshitta renders 1Pe 3:19 this way:
And he preached to those souls who were held in Sheol.
I am not familiar with the Peshitta. It is good we examine different translations and draw some consensus. In the King James translation, we have the language of the period to take into consideration although it is still considered to be the most faithful to the original scriptures.
So using the KJV, who are those preached to referred to as 'the spirits in prison'? Maybe we should examine this further and not just rely on the Peshitta translation.


There is nothing to say that the spirit has any conciousness while it in the hands of God.
I did not say that the spirit while in the hands of God was conscious. When the writer says; "in the grave there is no remembrance", the memories which must be part of the spirit of man, I understand to be dormant until put back in the body at the resurrection. Now we are in the realm that belongs to God who is the only ONE to understand the forces at work that make this happen. Mankind has difficulty understanding the nature of the universe in which mankind lives and is a closed universe and which God only can go beyond unless we limit Him in our minds. God's power and forces at work are greater than the forces which control the Universe in which we live. We have to accept that we do not know how God’s power operates; only that it does and we see the outworking of it and the evidence for believing God's Word.

Regarding your quote from Revelation I will make this general comment. The Book of the Revelation uses figurative language. This means we cannot take what is said literally. Whenever we come across difficult passages to understand, we must ask ourselves this question; Should I consider this as literal or figurative? First of all, if we ask each other why we consider a passage literal of figurative, heavenly or earthly, then where we agree, we can proceed. Unless we agree we cannot get anywhere by quoting references. I trust that the guests visiting this forum will come to understand this as well. All God's Word is Truth, it is our interpretation of Truth that leads to misunderstanding and lies.


If you're correct, David, the thing Peter was referring to, which Rose quoted higher up the page, happened after the resurrection? Is that what you believe?
First of all, we have not established who the 'spirits in prison' are and I would like to look at every possibility of what this phrase means. We can also ask why is Peter taking us back to consider Noah; what is the connection?

Answering the question, did the verses quoted by Rose happen after the resurrection; what I will say is this; these verses are describing when Jesus was/is alive. I have my view about this, but remember, this thread is dealing with the period when Jesus was in the grave and when Jesus was dead(cessation of life). These verses cannot apply to the three days Jesus was in the grave when he could do nothing and would have no remembrance of those three days.

I know that this forum looks for deeper meanings and I also look for deeper significance, but I should not overlook the obvious and therefore I have to read and accept some facts at face value.

Jesus condemned those for leading the children, 'these little ones ' astray from finding the truth.
It does not help our case if we take those things God has made clear and simple to understand, in the way a child can understand, and confuse children (young enquiring minds) by putting forward meanings which are not there.

So we have two basic questions to answer before we get into further discussions:
1 Do we agree that a passage is literal or figurative, to be thought of as spiritual or of the world?
2 Do we agree a passage can be taken at face value, or a deeper meaning has to be found before we can understand it?

May all of us who are endeavouring to find the Truth (in all its presented ways), be brought to the time when all these things can be revealed plainly to us by God through Christ our Saviour in the Kindgom of God to come.

David