Another look at Daniel's 70 weeks

[Rose]

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I know this interpretation goes against the flow of how others here on the Forum feel (even Richard disagrees), but I was lead to take 'another look' at Daniel’s 70 sevens and this is the interpretation I feel God was showing me.

The 70 sevens of Daniel are generally taken to mean 70 weeks of years, even though no mention of a day for a year is given in the prophecy. That interpretation has been understood in "hind sight' because the 70 weeks fit nicely into the day for a year time frame allowing the advent of Messiah to happen approx. 483 years after the decree given by King Cyrus to restore the Temple, and city of Jerusalem. The problem arises with the last 1 week period; if it is interpreted in the same manner as one day for a year it leaves us with a 7 year period to fit 70, or 40 years of time into, which from my perspective appears to leave the last half of the week open ended. If on the other hand the last week encompasses the whole period from the advent of Messiah (birth) to the destruction of the city and Temple (consummation) there is a defined start and finish which is inclusive of all parts mentioned in Daniel’s prophecy.

Taking a close look at what is being said in Dan.9:24-27, we see that 70 sets of seven are determined or decreed upon the Jews and the city of Jerusalem, that doesn’t mean 69 weeks + gap of x number of weeks + 70th week. It means x amount of time, symbolized by 70 sets of sevens divided into sections marked by specific events. There is no precedent for adding an unspecified gap of time between the first 69 sets and the 70th set, or even inserting a gap in the 70th week. The text plainly states 70 sevens are determined, giving the reader no justification in adding to the determined time. These 70 sevens are given as the time period to complete the 7 decrees that are listed before something happens. This demands that contained within the 70 sevens all conditions stated must be met.
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Dan.9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, 1. to finish the transgression, 2. and to make an end of sins, 3.and to make reconciliation for iniquity, 4. and to bring in everlasting righteousness, 5. and to seal up the vision 6. and prophecy, 7. and to anoint the most Holy.

Dan.9:25-27 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation (kalah), and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
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The text gives the first period of time from the decree given to rebuild Jerusalem (destroyed by the Babylonians in approx. 587 B.C.) until the Messiah as 7 + 62 = 69. The first 7 sevens that are set apart designate the time (approx. 49 years) it took to rebuild the city and Temple, the symbolic significance is noted by the use of 7 x 7, seven being the number of completeness, thus the city and Temple are restored or completed in 7 sevenfold times. Then the text speaks of 62 sets of seven unto Messiah which can be taken as the point of the birth of Jesus (that being the first point in time when Messiah was manifest on earth). Next the text mentions after the 69th set of seven as being the time when Messiah is cut off (not for Himself, which is exactly what His death was), putting that event sometime after the start of the 70th week. Immediately following in the text is the mention of the city and temple being destroyed, which strongly suggests its inclusion in the 70th set of seven since 70 sevens are determined upon the people and the city….which begs the question: determined for what? My understanding is that 70 sets of sevens are determined for the seven decrees to be accomplished, before the city and the Temple are destroyed at the end (consummation) of the last set of seven. The next passage in the text states that He (Messiah) confirms the Covenant for one set of seven, in the midst of that set of seven (crucifixion occurred around AD 33) the sacrifice in the Temple is caused to cease (symbolically when Temple veil is torn at the crucifixion of Christ, after that point the temple sacrifice failed to have its significance in the eyes of God). This leads into the last part of verse 27 which presents the last half of the 70th set of seven, perfectly paralleling the last 35 years which is the overspeading of abominations leading up to Jerusalem’s complete desolation and destruction, ending with the consummation. It is very important to note that the completion of the 70th week in Daniel’s prophecy ends in consummation, and as a Preterist I understand the consummation to have taken place at the end of the age (AD 70) with the marriage of the Lamb.

This understanding that I have presented, contained within the 70 sets of seven given in Daniels prophecy, which focuses primarily on the last set of seven forms a coherent picture of the complete end times picture. It starts with Jerusalem being rebuilt from the ruins of its first destruction that happened because of God’s judgment on sin, to its complete and utter destruction after it was rebuilt, again because of sin. The pieces fit into the time frame given without having to insert a 'gap', or leave an 'open end'. There is a continuous flow from the 69th week into the 70th week with no gap; starting at the 70th set of seven with the birth of Jesus, and ending with Jerusalem’s destruction. Christ’s crucifixion falls perfectly in the midst of that time frame with all points well defined in the Bible. Not only is the flow of time continuous, but the picture presented has a conclusion in the expected time frame, confirmed by history without leaving an undefined period of time between the crucifixion and the destruction of the Temple. Thus we have a whole picture presented in the 70th and last set of seven that begins with the birth of Messiah and ends with the consummation, marriage of the Lamb.
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Rebuilding Temple and city: 7 weeks (completion of rebuilt city, and return of the Jews)

Rebuilt city and Temple to Messiah: 62 weeks (end marked by the birth of Jesus)


After 69 weeks (during 70th week) Messiah cut off

70th week (begins at birth of Jesus) contains: fulfillment of 7 decrees, anointing, crucifixion, confirming Covenant, desecration of Temple, destruction of city and Temple



It is within the 70th week when the Covenant was confirmed that each of the 7 decrees finds its fulfillment in Christ, beginning when Jesus was baptized with the Holy Spirit (Anointing the Most Holy), and ending with the last prophecy and vision to be given which was 'the Revelation of Jesus Christ'; the other 4 decrees were fulfilled at the cross.

The seven decrees that are given form a Menorah structure when arraigned in paired sets.


Menorah structure of Daniel’s 70th seven
(Confirming the Covenant)


1b.To finish the transgression (completed in Christ)
3c.To make reconciliation for iniquity (fulfilled in Christ)


5d.To seal up the vision (ended with the Revelation of Jesus Christ)
7a.To anoint the most Holy (baptism of Jesus the Messiah with the Holy Spirit)

6d.To seal up prophecy (ended with the Revelation of Jesus Christ)

4c.To bring in everlasting righteousness (fulfilled in Christ)
2b.To make an end of sins (completed in Christ)




Rose

[Edward Goodie]

Don't mind me, but I disagree with everyone...:)

You started off by saying:


The 70 sevens of Daniel are generally taken to mean 70 weeks of years, even though no mention of a day for a year is given in the prophecy. That interpretation has been understood in "hind sight' because the 70 weeks fit nicely into the day for a year time frame allowing the advent of Messiah to happen approx. 483 years after the decree given by King Cyrus to restore the Temple, and city of Jerusalem. The problem arises with the last 1 week period; if it is interpreted in the same manner as one day for a year it leaves us with a 7 year period to fit 70, or 40 years of time into, which from my perspective appears to leave the last half of the week open ended. If on the other hand the last week encompasses the whole period from the advent of Messiah (birth) to the destruction of the city and Temple (consummation) there is a defined start and finish which is inclusive of all parts mentioned in Daniel’s prophecy.

1. I can't see how the seventy "weeks" could be interpreted as anything other than one week = seven years because of prior usage concerning the term "week." There was no mention as to how this term was now being used differently. It reminds me of the "elements" in 2 Peter 3. It doesn't matter to the futurists how Paul used "elements" in Galatians 4:3, Galatians 4:9, Colossians 2:8, Colossians 2:20 and Hebrews 5:12 either.

2. I believe it is a presupposition that proposes that one must take the 70 weeks to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. The destruction is not mentioned as one of the six items in verse 24 that would occur in that 70 weeks of time. This is key. Even your summary at the end does not include the destruction..

But to be sure, I will let you know in 40 earth years as to the real understanding. My difficulty then will be how to relate it back from the realm I will be in...

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Don't mind me, but I disagree with everyone...:)

Great! That makes for interesting conversation ... assuming you can support your position, that is! :p



1. I can't see how the seventy "weeks" could be interpreted as anything other than one week = seven years because of prior usage concerning the term "week." There was no mention as to how this term was now being used differently. It reminds me of the "elements" in 2 Peter 3. It doesn't matter to the futurists how Paul used "elements" in Galatians 4:3, Galatians 4:9, Colossians 2:8, Colossians 2:20 and Hebrews 5:12 either.

I agree it is very important to examine the "prior usage" to understand the meaning of words elsewhere in the Bible, but a close look at the prior usage in this case does not seem to establish the meaning of "week" in Daniel 24. I presume you are talking about the "seven times" that passed over Nebuchadnezzar:
Daniel 4:16 Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.
Does the phrase "seven times" mean "seven years"? The text does not say. Just as with the prophecy in Dan 9:24, it could mean "seven periods of time" with the length of the periods indeterminate. I do not know of any "proof" that the times mean years. Indeed Goldinggay (Word Commentary) argues that the word "times" does not mean years. Here are his comments:

13.b. Not 'years' (OG (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/#_ftn1), gnb (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/#_ftn2)); this resolves the allusiveness of עדן, which denotes a set definite if unspecified period of time (עדון refers to a woman’s monthly 'period' [DTT (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/#_ftn3)]; cf. vv 20, 22, 29; 7:25; also מועד in 11:29; 12:7. Dan could have used שנה (cf., e.g., 1:5; 6:1; 7:1; 11:6; also Gen 41:25) and does not; the period denoted may be a year, but this is not the meaning of עדן or מועד themselves (though the Akk. (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/#_ftn4) equivalent has this meaning in the Harran inscription [Gadd, AnSt (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/#_ftn5) 8 (1958) 88], as does Gk. (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/#_ftn6) χρόνος [Ginsberg, 1–2]): Theodoret makes 7 'seasons' 3 1/2 years, assuming a two-season year; Hippolytus refers to the view that they denote 1 3/4 years, 7 seasons of three months.
This means that the "seven times" can not be taken as proof that the "seventy weeks" means weeks of years. And as far as I can tell, there is not and never will be "proof" though I think that there are some good reasons to assume that the 70 weeks are years. I see two primary reasons:

1) The day for a year principle is established in Scripture.

2) The close correspondence of the 60 weeks = 483 years with the actual historical time between the command and the coming of Christ.

But these arguments are not conclusive, especially since the 69 weeks do not give exact numbers. Their is some uncertainty in the starting and end dates, so the best we can do is find a prophetic "window" that includes the rough time of the crucifixion. (Anderson's claim to calculating the exact date using 360 day years is clearly flawed.) So ... there is too much uncertainty to be dogmatic about the day/year theory in the 70 weeks. But I am not yet willing to give it up though closer examination is making me wonder if Rose's approach might be the correct one.

Great chatting.

Richard

[Rose]

Don't mind me, but I disagree with everyone...:)

You started off by saying:



1. I can't see how the seventy "weeks" could be interpreted as anything other than one week = seven years because of prior usage concerning the term "week." There was no mention as to how this term was now being used differently. It reminds me of the "elements" in 2 Peter 3. It doesn't matter to the futurists how Paul used "elements" in Galatians 4:3, Galatians 4:9, Colossians 2:8, Colossians 2:20 and Hebrews 5:12 either.

2. I believe it is a presupposition that proposes that one must take the 70 weeks to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. The destruction is not mentioned as one of the six items in verse 24 that would occur in that 70 weeks of time. This is key. Even your summary at the end does not include the destruction..

But to be sure, I will let you know in 40 earth years as to the real understanding. My difficulty then will be how to relate it back from the realm I will be in...

Hi TruthSeeker,

Thank you for your response....:signthankspin:

So....what is your interpretation of Daniel's prophecy?


What you said in Point #1 about "prior usage" has no bearing on the way I interpreted this particular prophecy of Daniel. What I was speaking of is that nowhere in this specific prophecy does it mention a day to be interpreted as a year....that has come from "hind sight" in seeing how well the 69 weeks fits into the actual period of time from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem unto Messiah.

I don't see the comparison of Paul's use of the word "elements" with Daniel's use of the word "sevens or weeks". The definition of the Greek word for elements stoicheion can mean fundamental principles, or elements of nature....whereas the Hebrew word shavuwa`means either seven or week, having nothing to do with years.

As for your point #2: the 7 decrees are fulfilled within the 70th set of seven by Messiah, they are separate from the destruction of the city which is the consequences determined upon the Jews, concluding with the consummation.


God Bless,

Rose

[Edward Goodie]

Great! That makes for interesting conversation ... assuming you can support your position, that is! :p


I agree it is very important to examine the "prior usage" to understand the meaning of words elsewhere in the Bible, but a close look at the prior usage in this case does not seem to establish the meaning of "week" in Daniel 24. I presume you are talking about the "seven times" that passed over Nebuchadnezzar:
Daniel 4:16 Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.
Does the phrase "seven times" mean "seven years"? The text does not say. Just as with the prophecy in Dan 9:24, it could mean "seven periods of time" with the length of the periods indeterminate. I do not know of any "proof" that the times mean years. Indeed Goldinggay (Word Commentary) argues that the word "times" does not mean years. Here are his comments:

13.b. Not 'years' (OG (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/#_ftn1), gnb (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/#_ftn2)); this resolves the allusiveness of עדן, which denotes a set definite if unspecified period of time (עדון refers to a woman’s monthly 'period' [DTT (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/#_ftn3)]; cf. vv 20, 22, 29; 7:25; also מועד in 11:29; 12:7. Dan could have used שנה (cf., e.g., 1:5; 6:1; 7:1; 11:6; also Gen 41:25) and does not; the period denoted may be a year, but this is not the meaning of עדן or מועד themselves (though the Akk. (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/#_ftn4) equivalent has this meaning in the Harran inscription [Gadd, AnSt (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/#_ftn5) 8 (1958) 88], as does Gk. (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/#_ftn6) χρόνος [Ginsberg, 1–2]): Theodoret makes 7 'seasons' 3 1/2 years, assuming a two-season year; Hippolytus refers to the view that they denote 1 3/4 years, 7 seasons of three months.
This means that the "seven times" can not be taken as proof that the "seventy weeks" means weeks of years. And as far as I can tell, there is not and never will be "proof" though I think that there are some good reasons to assume that the 70 weeks are years. I see two primary reasons:

1) The day for a year principle is established in Scripture.

2) The close correspondence of the 60 weeks = 483 years with the actual historical time between the command and the coming of Christ.

But these arguments are not conclusive, especially since the 69 weeks do not give exact numbers. Their is some uncertainty in the starting and end dates, so the best we can do is find a prophetic "window" that includes the rough time of the crucifixion. (Anderson's claim to calculating the exact date using 360 day years is clearly flawed.) So ... there is too much uncertainty to be dogmatic about the day/year theory in the 70 weeks. But I am not yet willing to give it up though closer examination is making me wonder if Rose's approach might be the correct one.

Great chatting.

Richard

Sorry, but I thought everyone's premise for the 1 week = 7 years theory was based upon Genesis 29:27-30. I should have been more clear. I never heard of the one you proposed...no wonder it doesn't check out :winking0071:

And yes, I am a great conversationalist. Last Saturday I was invited (after some prodding :)) for dinner at a dispensationalist's friend of mine. There was another gentleman there and his daughter dropped by to pick up her daughter (his grandaughter). There was about a 90 minute period where I was fielding rapid fire questions from all directions. It was an amiable environment and I was able to give one fella my book and the daughter a DVD by Brian Martin that I highly recommend. The DVD link (http://www.fulfilledcg.com/Site/Video/video.htm)

[Edward Goodie]

Hi TruthSeeker,

Thank you for your response....:signthankspin:

So....what is your interpretation of Daniel's prophecy?


What you said in Point #1 about "prior usage" has no bearing on the way I interpreted this particular prophecy of Daniel. What I was speaking of is that nowhere in this specific prophecy does it mention a day to be interpreted as a year....that has come from "hind sight" in seeing how well the 69 weeks fits into the actual period of time from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem unto Messiah.

I don't see the comparison of Paul's use of the word "elements" with Daniel's use of the word "sevens or weeks". The definition of the Greek word for elements stoicheion can mean fundamental principles, or elements of nature....whereas the Hebrew word shavuwa`means either seven or week, having nothing to do with years.

As for your point #2: the 7 decrees are fulfilled within the 70th set of seven by Messiah, they are separate from the destruction of the city which is the consequences determined upon the Jews, concluding with the consummation.


God Bless,

Rose

Hi Rose,

I will try to address your points as best I can. To be sure I hate text-based communication!

I don't have time to give my interpretation of Daniels prophecy although I think it has been given in dribs and drabs in other's threads...For me, the 70th week ends 3 1/2 years after Calvary.

I don't base the 1 day = 1 year from hindsight. I don't even see the 1 day = 1 year at all. What I do see is the 1 week = 7 years from Genesis 29:27-30, which would be common knowledge to the Jews.

As regarding the "elements," I believe you missed my point. Futurists will not even consider what Paul said about the stoichea. For them it must mean atoms, protons, neutrons, etc. that compose the universe. No consideration at all is given to Paul's meaning, and hence, no continuing meaning is passed on...

When you said,
"As for your point #2: the 7 decrees are fulfilled within the 70th set of seven by Messiah, they are separate from the destruction of the city which is the consequences determined upon the Jews, concluding with the consummation." I think that is the whole point. The 70 week prophecy was strictly the time period allotted for those six things to be completed. The destruction of Jerusalem was NOT included in that list.

[gregoryfl]

I got that DVD as soon as it came out. I agree, very well done.

The only thing I find of concern in thinking of the 70 sevens as being undisclosed periods of time, is that could give rise to any number of attempts to fit whatever into those time frames. My gut tells me that whatever those 70 periods of sevens are, that they seem best understood as consistent. I am, of course, willing to look at whatever other evidence can be presented.

Ron

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Sorry, but I thought everyone's premise for the 1 week = 7 years theory was based upon Genesis 29:27-30. I should have been more clear. I never heard of the one you proposed...no wonder it doesn't check out :winking0071:

I don't see any support for the day/year idea in Genesis 29.27. The word translated as "week" is really just "seven" - there is nothing that makes me think God is telling us that there is a correspondence between seven days and seven years. And it is interesting to consider how the Jews translate that verse in the Tanakh:
TNK Genesis 29:27 Wait until the bridal week of this one is over and we will give you that one too, provided you serve me another seven years."
Here they take the "week" as a literal week - a "bridal week" to consummate the marriage. There is no symbolic representation of "seven years" implied.

So though there are good reasons to think the 70 weeks are weeks of years, there is nothing like proof as far as I can tell.



And yes, I am a great conversationalist. Last Saturday I was invited (after some prodding :)) for dinner at a dispensationalist's friend of mine. There was another gentleman there and his daughter dropped by to pick up her daughter (his grandaughter). There was about a 90 minute period where I was fielding rapid fire questions from all directions. It was an amiable environment and I was able to give one fella my book and the daughter a DVD by Brian Martin that I highly recommend. The DVD link (http://www.fulfilledcg.com/Site/Video/video.htm)
Yes, you seem like an excellent conversationalist. And it sounds like GREAT FUN to have all those questions shot at you. After years of studying eschatology from the realist preterist point of view shooting those questions out of the sky is great fun.

I'll check out the link.

What is the name of your book? Any info online?

[Rose]

When you said, I think that is the whole point. The 70 week prophecy was strictly the time period allotted for those six things to be completed. The destruction of Jerusalem was NOT included in that list.

Hi TruthSeeker,


The destruction of Jerusalem was not included in the list of 7 decrees because it was a consequence of the Jews rejection of Messiah who fulfilled those 7 decrees. The cutting off of Messiah was not one of the decrees either, but it occurred within the 70th seven just as the destruction occurred at the end of the 70th seven.

Many blessings,

Rose

[Edward Goodie]

What is the name of your book? Any info online?

Unpublished. No Internet info. Title: "Creeds, Credentials, or Christ?" Sold a few at the TruthVoice2009 and Covenant Creation 2009 conferences...

Genesis 29:27-30 - Fulfil her week, and we will give thee this also for the service which thou shalt serve with me yet seven other years.
28 And Jacob did so, and fulfilled her week: and he gave him Rachel his daughter to wife also.
29 And Laban gave to Rachel his daughter Bilhah his handmaid to be her maid.
30 And he went in also unto Rachel, and he loved also Rachel more than Leah, and served with him yet seven other years.

[Rose]

I got that DVD as soon as it came out. I agree, very well done.

The only thing I find of concern in thinking of the 70 sevens as being undisclosed periods of time, is that could give rise to any number of attempts to fit whatever into those time frames. My gut tells me that whatever those 70 periods of sevens are, that they seem best understood as consistent. I am, of course, willing to look at whatever other evidence can be presented.

Ron

Hi Ron,

I don't think there's much worry about fitting "whatever" into the time frames because we know the beginning point and the ending point (at least for the first 69 sevens).

In an asymmetrical way the last seven forms its own consistent symmetry looking at it from a "year" perspective. The first 69 sets of sevens are interpreted as one day for 1 year....whereas the last set of seven is interpreted as one day for 10 years, a tenfold increase...:winking0071:

God Bless,

Rose

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Genesis 29:27-30 - Fulfil her week, and we will give thee this also for the service which thou shalt serve with me yet seven other years.
28 And Jacob did so, and fulfilled her week: and he gave him Rachel his daughter to wife also.
29 And Laban gave to Rachel his daughter Bilhah his handmaid to be her maid.
30 And he went in also unto Rachel, and he loved also Rachel more than Leah, and served with him yet seven other years.
I don't see any proof of the day/year theory in that passage, even in the translation you chose. The word "week" merely means "seven" and in this context it means "a period of seven years." It does not prove that a "week of days" is a symbol of "seven years". It was merely a "week of years" to begin with.

But there is also much ambiguity in the passage. The Jews, who probably have a pretty good handle on the Hebrew of this passage, consistently interpret the "week" as the "bridal week" in this passage:

Genesis 29:27-30 Wait until the bridal week of this one is over and we will give you that one too, provided you serve me another seven years."
28 Jacob did so; he waited out the bridal week of the one, and then he gave him his daughter Rachel as wife. --
29 Laban had given his maidservant Bilhah to his daughter Rachel as her maid. --
30 And Jacob cohabited with Rachel also; indeed, he loved Rachel more than Leah. And he served him another seven years.

Is there anything in this passage that suggests the "bridal week" was a symbol of "seven years"?

[Edward Goodie]

Hi TruthSeeker,


The destruction of Jerusalem was not included in the list of 7 decrees because it was a consequence of the Jews rejection of Messiah who fulfilled those 7 decrees. The cutting off of Messiah was not one of the decrees either, but it occurred within the 70th seven just as the destruction occurred at the end of the 70th seven.

Many blessings,

Rose

I realize that the actual wording of the "cutting off" is not mentioned in those decrees but it is rather obvious that some of those decrees don't get fulfilled until that particular Calvary event [an end of sin (offerings) for example] and are strongly related as your own summary indicates UNLIKE the 70 AD destruction...

[TheForgiven]

Respecting everyone else's inputs, let me simply state my opinion again.

If Christ was "Cut-Off" in the middle of the 70th week (as the text states), then that leaves half of the 70th week to be fulfilled. My opinion is that this was fulfilled when the Gospels bore as much fruit as it could when they first heard the Gospel of Salvation. The Gospel was then taken to the Gentiles.

The Temples destruction would come when "ENOUGH" Gentiles were brought in. That is why Luke states, "and this gospel will be preached to the Gentiles, AND THEN the end (Abomination that sets up it's Desolation) will come....the end of what? The temple.

Thus, the final 70th week ended when the Gospels went to the Gentiles. The Destruction of the temple happened as a result of the dead-line of the 70th week, but not without a final chance to change the hearts of the Jews by being stirred to Jealousy; Jealousy from seeing God perform wonders in Gentile nations.

Makes sense to me. ;o)

Joe

[Rose]

I realize that the actual wording of the "cutting off" is not mentioned in those decrees but it is rather obvious that some of those decrees don't get fulfilled until that particular Calvary event [an end of sin (offerings) for example] and are strongly related as your own summary indicates UNLIKE the 70 AD destruction...

I'm sure we will not settle this difference of opinion anytime soon....:winking0071:, but the most important thing is that we agree Daniel's prophecy was fulfilled in the 1st century with the coming of Christ...:highfive:

Many blessings

Rose

[TheForgiven]

I'm sure we will not settle this difference of opinion anytime soon...., but the most important thing is that we agree Daniel's prophecy was fulfilled in the 1st century with the coming of Christ...

Many blessings

Rose

That is exactly correct. :thumb: It's great to discuss/debate the details even among us Preterist's What's more important, however is that we at least agree Daniel's 70 sevens was fulfilled in the first century.

Joe

[TheForgiven]

Let us carefully read and understand the text of Daniel's seventy weeks/sevens. I will provide my opinion of each verse in dealing with this subject. The text is taken from the Septuagint of the Old Testament:

Daniel 9:


24 Seventy weeks have been determined upon thy people, and upon the holy city, for sin to be ended, and to seal up transgressions, and to blot out the iniquities, and to make atonement for iniquities, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal the vision and the prophet, and to anoint the Most Holy.

As stated, the details of the seventy sevens involve ONLY the following:

1. Sealing of Transgressions - In my opinion, this means that the height of their (Jews) sinning would be brought to an all time high. Thus, as Jesus told the Apostate Jews, "That upon you may come all the blood shed...."

2. Blot/erase out iniquities - This is a clear statement with regards to Jesus. By His sacrifice on the cross, all sin would be blotted out/erased.

3. Make atonement for iniquities - This, in my opinion, goes along with #2; only through Christ's sacrifice atone for wickedness.

4. Bring in everlasting righteousness - It is through Christ Jesus that all are justified (made righteous) by faith through his gift of grace. It is the Gospel that teaches righteousness on the basis of faith. Thus, through the sacrifice of Christ, and the spreading of the Gospels, thereby creating a kingdom of grace, and eternal righteousness has been brought in.

5. Seal up vision and prophet - It is clear that Jesus is the fulfillment of all prophesy. Now one could argue that the destruction of the temple in 70AD was part of the "sealing up prophet and vision". Yet even Matthew states,

Matthew 11:
13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.


Thus, John was the last prophet until Christ. And Christ, who was a prophet, is who John testified about. Thus, Christ was the fulfillment of all the law and the prophets.

6. Anoint the Most Holy - Some believe this is in reference to the temple. The New American Standard (NASV) Bible wrongly include the word "place", as though Daniel was being told that the most holy place (temple) would be anointed. However, it is Jesus who was anointed at His Baptism. The New Testament is filled with examples of Christ being anointed; not only the New Testament, but the Old Testament as well. Just as Moses was anointed with the Holy Spirit, Jesus was anointed as the Messiah. It was His anointing that enabled Him to perform the miraculous works, and to teach about the Kingdom of God. Finally, through His Spirit being poured out to the Jews first, they too (Through Christ) performed mighty works.

Now we continue with the events to take place within the seventy sevens.


25 And thou shalt know and understand, that from the going forth of the command for the answer and for the building of Jerusalem until Christ the prince there shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks; and then the time shall return, and the street shall be built, and the wall, and the times shall be exhausted.

It is clear that the 69 weeks mentioned here entails the issuing of a decree to rebuild Jerusalem. But we have to read verse 26 for additional detail.


26 And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one shall be destroyed, and there is no judgment in him: and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that is coming: they shall be cut off with a flood, and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed he shall appoint the city to desolations.

We have to be VERY careful in reading this verse. It's natural for any reader to assume that all of verse 26 occurs after immediately after the 62 weeks (or 69 weeks when considering the first 49 weeks). The text reads that after the 62 weeks, Christ would be cut-off. We all agree that this most likely refers to His sacrifice. Where the futurists are mistaken is that they believe that Christ is killed at the very END of the 62 weeks (or 69 weeks when considering the first 49 weeks). But the text doesn't say that. It merely states that AFTER the 69 weeks are completed, the Messiah would be cut-off, but not immediately after the 69 weeks. We have to read further to find out when the Messiah is cut-off. But first, the remainder of verse 26:

...and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that is coming: they shall be cut off with a flood, and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed he shall appoint the city to desolations

He (Christ) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that is coming AT THE APPOINTED TIME. This means that the people, temple, and city would be cut-off/destroyed at a separate predetermined time outside of the seventy sevens. Meaning, a ruler would have to come first before the temple can be destroyed.

What can this mean but that the Desolation itself is a "Predetermined" event outside of the 70 sevens. In other words, the Seventy Sevens would come to an end after the Messiah is cut off, LEADING to the predetermined event involving the destruction of the temple caused by an abomination leading to war. This is a direct result of His being "Cut-Off". Meaning, they (His own) killed Him, but would be punished at the predetermined time when the people, temple, and city are destroyed.....but again, at the "appointed" time.

Finally, we get to the details of the final week, which picks up from verse 26 in speaking of the Messiah being cut-off:


27 And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation.

The first part of verse 27 is very important. A two important things take place during the final 70th week:

1. Preaching/Confirming the Convenant - Jesus performed many miracles after His anointing. Jesus would spend the next 3 1/2 years after His Baptism confirming the Covenant.

2. His sacrifice - confirms the Covenant through His blood, and thus the animal sacrificing and drink-offering as required under the first covenant was done away with. This happens in the middle of the final week (70th week), thus proving that Jesus was Cut-off after the 69th week, during the middle of the 70th week.

But what about the latter half of the verse? It reads, "and on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the Desolation...."

Now some would read "end of time" as though time itself would end. Rather, I believe the text is stating that at the end of the times involving the Abomination of Desolation, the predetermined destruction involving the war and temple would come to its end. Some would try to over-mystify this as though Daniel was being told that time would end. But that is not what the text states. It merely states that predetermined destruction of the temple, caused by an abomination that was placed within the temple, would come to its end.

Now what could the abomination have been? I've proposed that it may have been Caligula's image being placed within the temple. It's a fact that this is what caused the Jewish war in the first place, although not immediately. It would take time, and two more Caesars before the Jews began to realize that they needed to free themselves from Roman authority. After all, that is what they were hoping for in the first place. They rejected Jesus because He was unable to prove that He was the Messiah by coming down from the cross; which is what they hoped.

Another theory of the Abomination was the Romans entering the temple which was not lawful for them to do. Or it may have been the factions who entered the temple and began to do what was not lawful for them to do.

Either way, something happened illegally that was stir up trouble, eventually leading to war, and ending the time of Jerusalem's complete destruction.

In conclusion, Daniels' seventy sevens involved the events of Christ, and ended when the gospels went to the Gentiles, at the latter half of the final week. The marker for the final weeks was the sacrifice of Jesus when He was cut-off in the middle of the 70th week. The Predetermined war leading to Jerusalem's desolation of the city and temple would be completed when the Abomination of Desolation was set-up. Yet Daniel is never told that the Abomination that sets up Jerusalem's Desolation happens with the seventy sevens. Instead, the Abominations that sets up the Desolation is a separate "PREDETERMINED" event outside of the seventy sevens. Thus, the events of 70AD were a predetermined event that would occur once the events culminating the seventy weeks were completed. And part of that was bringing in everlasting righteousness through the preaching of the Gospels. The gospels was first preached to the Jews, which ended the 70th week, where it then went to the Gentiles to stir the Jews to jealousy. When the fullness of the Gentiles had come in, and the Kingdom of righteousness was spread out enough, then comes the predetermined Desolation and judgment of the ungodly within Apostate Israel.

My goal was to deliver a concise post explaining my position. I hope I have helped.

God bless.

Joe

[Rose]

Hi Joe,

Good presentation of your viewpoint...:clap2:

One point that I would like to add that seems to strengthen my position of all events taking place within the 70 sevens is the use of the word determined or decreed (charats).
.
Dan.9:26-27 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined (charats). And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation (kalah), and that determined (charats) shall be poured upon the desolate.
.
The continuation of events from the last week seems to flow from the midst of the week when the sacrifice ceases, into the overspreading of abominations (continual sacrifices in the Temple which are an abomination to God) which continue on until the consummation (kalah) which has already been determined. From the flow of words in the text, these events appear to be contained within the last week.


Rose

[TheForgiven]

Hi Joe,

Good presentation of your viewpoint...

One point that I would like to add that seems to strengthen my position of all events taking place within the 70 sevens is the use of the word determined or decreed (charats).
.

Dan.9:26-27 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined (charats). And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation (kalah), and that determined (charats) shall be poured upon the desolate.
.

The continuation of events from the last week seems to flow from the midst of the week when the sacrifice ceases, into the overspreading of abominations (continual sacrifices in the Temple which are an abomination to God) which continue on until the consummation (kalah) which has already been determined. From the flow of words in the text, these events appear to be contained within the last week.


Rose

Well I certainly enjoy discussing these things with you, even if we have slight differences. :p

Now lets look at the passage you quoted again....but I'll quote the Septuagint:

26 And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one shall be destroyed, and there is no judgment in him: and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that is coming: they shall be cut off with a flood, and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed he shall appoint the city to desolations.

See the distinction? Jesus is "Cut-OFF" after the sixty weeks. But the text does not necessarily state that the prince (ruler) is to come during the final week. Notice also the word "appoint"? This means that the destruction itself is at an appointed time. In other words, this is how I would read the text.

...after the sixty two weeks, the Messiah will be destroyed, and He shall have no judgment in Him. But at an appointed time, a ruler shall be sent by the Messiah to destroy the sanctuary and bring the war to a rapid completion, as swift as a flood....

Now I structured the paragraph to make more sense grammatically with our language, but that is what I believe the text is saying. In short, Daniel is told that the Messiah would be destroyed after the sixty-two weeks. And then, at an appointed time, the war would come to a swift end, like a flood, and the people (Daniel's people) would be cut-off, and the sanctuary would meet its destruction.

Again, the destruction itself is at a predetermined time not part of the seventy sevens.

Sometimes additional detail is included within a paragraph, though not necessarily part of the subject. Usually, additional detail often begins with a semicolon (;). The verse about the people being cut-off and the sanctuary being destroyed was additional, but separate detail as a "cause" or "reaction" of what original statement.

Let's look at the entire passage with a slight modification for grammar sakes, so you can see my point.

And thou shalt know and understand, that from the going forth of the command for the answer and for the building of Jerusalem until Christ the prince there shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks. And then the time shall return, and the street shall be built, and the wall, and the times shall be exhausted. And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one shall be destroyed, and there is no judgment in him. And one week shall [He] establish the covenant with many. But in the midst of the week My sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away. On the temple shall be an abomination of desolations [that shall occur at the ] time of the end. He shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with a ruler yet to come. [And your people] shall be cut off with a flood until the end of the war that will be rapidly completed, when the sanctuary will be destroyed at the appointed time.

Hope this made more sense. Oh, and phrases in [] were mine for additional clarity.

Joe

[Edward Goodie]

I'm sure we will not settle this difference of opinion anytime soon....:winking0071:, but the most important thing is that we agree Daniel's prophecy was fulfilled in the 1st century with the coming of Christ...:highfive:

Many blessings

Rose

First century??? You've Gotta Be Kidding...Right? (http://www.fulfilledcg.com/Site/Video/video.htm)

Just foolin'...and havin' some fun. Full-preterists don't get to do that much ya know.

[Rose]

First century??? You've Gotta Be Kidding...Right? (http://www.fulfilledcg.com/Site/Video/video.htm)

Just foolin'...and havin' some fun. Full-preterists don't get to do that much ya know.

Hi TruthSeeker,

I went to the link you posted and watched the DVD; I thought it was an excellent presentation of the journey to Preterism, which pretty much followed the steps I started with almost 3 years ago. And yes, "You've gotta be kidding" was my first reaction when I asked Richard 3 years ago what views Preterist held.

Thank you for the link....:signthankspin:

God Bless

Rose

[Edward Goodie]

Hi TruthSeeker,

I went to the link you posted and watched the DVD; I thought it was an excellent presentation of the journey to Preterism, which pretty much followed the steps I started with almost 3 years ago. And yes, "You've gotta be kidding" was my first reaction when I asked Richard 3 years ago what views Preterist held.

Thank you for the link....:signthankspin:

God Bless

Rose

Yep. I thought the DVD was excellent. I purchased a whack of them and gave some of them out at Christmas to my dispensational friends, I mean acquaintances...they are very inexpensive to purchase and can be kept in car glove compartments or a woman's purse. They even fit in the back pocket although I wouldn't put one there for any length of time...:)

[basilfo]

.

.... This leads into the last part of verse 27 which presents the last half of the 70th set of seven, perfectly paralleling the last 35 years which is the overspeading of abominations leading up to Jerusalem’s complete desolation and destruction, ending with the consummation.

Rose

Hi Rose,
I always appreciate your thoughful and well written positions. Thank you for the time on this one - probably the prophesy with more diverse interpretations than any other.

Could you elaborate on your reasoning behind changing the length of the 70th week? I think you are calling for the 70th week to run for 70 yrs vs. 7, right?

I always get nervous when there is nothing in the text (unless I missed it) to change the timing. Like the insertion of a gap when a gap is not in the text, and it renders "70 weeks" meaningless. IMO, if the total time lapse is longer than 70 consecutive weeks, then it really wasn't 70 weeks that was determined, which makes the opening statement given to Daniel incorrect. And that can't be.

Looking forward to your thoughts.
Dave

[Rose]

Hi Rose,
I always appreciate your thoughful and well written positions. Thank you for the time on this one - probably the prophesy with more diverse interpretations than any other.

Could you elaborate on your reasoning behind changing the length of the 70th week? I think you are calling for the 70th week to run for 70 yrs vs. 7, right?

I always get nervous when there is nothing in the text (unless I missed it) to change the timing. Like the insertion of a gap when a gap is not in the text, and it renders "70 weeks" meaningless. IMO, if the total time lapse is longer than 70 consecutive weeks, then it really wasn't 70 weeks that was determined, which makes the opening statement given to Daniel incorrect. And that can't be.

Looking forward to your thoughts.
Dave

Hi Dave,

I too appreciate your concern for the appearance of changing the text which I don't think I've done. I titled this thread "Another look at Daniels 70 weeks" because that exactly what I felt lead to do.

As I'm sure you know in Hebrew the word for week is also the same word for seven, so the text of Daniel can accurately be read as 70 sevens. Of course the most natural interpretation is take the meaning of "seven" as week, especially in light of "hind sight"; though I doubt that Daniel knew it to be interpreted a day for a year.

Even though the 70 sevens fit pretty well (every way I've seen it figured there is always quite a bit of wiggle room) into the time period I feel no violence is done to the whole picture in looking at it from a perspective of symbolic units of 7 in which the events take place.

Since the text separates the last seven as a unit apart by itself (the text presents it as expanded because it has a midst), I took that precedent to take a look at how all the pieces fit into that unit "outside of time" so to speak. In doing that I was amazed at what I saw. This last symbolic unit of 7 begins with Jesus' first coming (birth), and ends with His coming in power and glory (consummation); inclusive in it all 7 decrees are fulfilled by Christ with His crucifixion falling in the midst of His 2 comings. The overspreading of abominations that began after the torn veil which caused the significance of the sacrifice to cease, perfectly maps onto the history of the Temple before its ultimate destruction caused by the Jews themselves.

To pick out the parts of the verses that speak of the desolation, the destruction of the temple and city, and the consummation and put them outside the time frame of the last seven somehow seems like cutting out parts to make the seven fit into seven years.

Hope I answered your questions....:D

Rose

[Rose]

.
Continuing on with taking “another look” at Daniel’s 70 sevens I will now focus on verse 24 and the 7 decrees, to show how the 7 decrees are inclusive of the destruction of the temple and Holy city.
.
Dan.9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, 1. to finish the transgression, 2. and to make an end of sins, 3.and to make reconciliation for iniquity, 4. and to bring in everlasting righteousness, 5. and to seal up the vision 6. and prophecy, 7. and to anoint the most Holy.
.
70 sevens are determined upon the Jewsand the Holy city to: it is very important to note that in interpreting the 7 decrees given one must remember that the antecedent to whom those decrees are determined upon is the Jews and the Holy city.

Looking to Scripture to get a fuller understanding as to why the symbolic term 70 sevens is used, an outstanding example comes to mind in Matt.18:22 where Jesus answers Peter’s question of how many times one should forgive their brother with 70 times seven establishing its symbolic meaning as that of a “unit being filled up, complete”.

If we define the time frame of Daniel’s 70 sevens to cover all events contained in those 4 verses we literally have it beginning with the ruins of Jerusalem and ending with the ruins of re-built Jerusalem…..from ruins to ruins (a complete cycle).

Now looking closer at the 7 decrees with its antecedent (the Jews and the Holy city) in mind this is what I find them to be saying:
.

70 sevens are determined upon the Jews and the Holy city to:
For the Jews to finish (kala, fill up the measure of) their transgressions (pasha,`sins against God) the Jews are given 70 sevens to fill up the measure of their sins (by sacrificing in the temple), that continued up until the destruction of the Temple, and the Holy city.
For the Jews to seal up (chatham), or complete (tamam) their sins (chatta'ah): again it speaks of the Jews as being given 70 sevens to complete their sins (overspreading of abomination) before the end of the 70 sevens (the destruction of the temple, and the Holy city)
For there to be atonement (kaphar) for iniquity: Christ fulfilled this with His sacrifice at the cross (midst of seven)
To come in (bo) everlasting righteousness: Christ brought in everlasting righteousness at the cross (midst of seven)
For vision to be sealed (chatham) Revelation was the last vision concerning the end to be given before the fullness of the determined time
For prophecy to be sealed (chatham) Revelation was the last prophecy concerning the end to be given before the fullness of the determined time
To anoint the Holy One: When Jesus was baptized with the Holy Spirit (beginning of His ministry).
Rose

[TheForgiven]

Sister Rose has provided us with a rather brilliant post explaining her position. She believes that the seventy sevens must include the destruction of the temple. I'm certain anyone with a Preterist mindset would try very hard to fit the final week with the destruction of Jerusalem, and the temple. However, I have shown that this need not be the case.

Remember my example of the spanking? Did I have to spank my child at the dead-line in order to fulfill my example of prophesy? Of course not. The deadline had to do with the things mentioned in verse 26, most (or all) of which do not need to include the events of the war.

Using Christ's statement "70 x 7" of forgiveness. It is my opinion that He was giving the Jews a hint that their entire height of sins would be sealed at the end of the 70 sevens as provided to Daniel.

There are a few websites that believe as I do; some Partial Preterist, and very few of the full preterist. They believe (as I do) that the times ended with the Gentiles receiving the Gospel.

This is important because after the gospels left Jerusalem, and went to the Gentile nations, it is almost the same as those of whom Joshua led in the wilderness for 40 years. The original hearers of God's grace in the days of Moses were never permitted to enter the land promised to them; the physical land of Israel. It was the next generation that were permitted to enter.

I see this as a striking contrast with the time frame of about 33AD, to about 73AD. The war was ended in 70AD, but not necessarily. For horrific events took place upon to about 73AD. My opinion is that Stephen was stoned around 33AD, some 3 1/2 years after the crucifixion of Christ. The Gospels was solely for the Jews first, and that was the mission of the Apostles. It is my opinion that Stephen was stoned around 33AD. Not long afterwards, Peter has a vision about eating unclean beasts. It is this vision that led Peter to preach to the house of Cornelius, and would represent the first of the Gentiles being provided the gifts of God WITHOUT the laying on of the hands from the Apostles. Thus as the Jews learned, the grace and glory of God was given to the Gentiles by the simple preaching of the word, combined with them hearing with faith.

What would happen once the Gentiles received the gospels is sort of like a period of wandering. Because the original hearers rejected the gospels presented by the Apostles, they would be stuck in the wilderness, although not without the chance to repent.

Finally, Rose brings up a great point regarding Prophesy. John was the last known prophet...this we cannot deny. However, His prophesy was not sent to the churches in Jerusalem. Instead, it was sent to the Churches in Asia Minor. "SO?" you might be asking. Well this is important because after Christ, and the Apostles, no prophet remained. For Matthew records that no prophet existed up until John, afterwards Christ and His Apostles.

My point is simple. We all agree that Daniel's seventy sevens was fulfilled in the first century. But I strongly believe that the final week was fulfilled with Christ. The "Spanking" would occur after the seventy sevens when enough Gentiles were brought in. That is why the Angel tells Daniel that at an appointed time, the Sanctuary would be destroyed. This logically indicates that the destruction itself was appointed outside of the seventy sevens. If we conclude that the destruction of the temple must be part of the seventy sevens, then why would the Angel state that this event was "appointed" instead of "included"? :winking0071:

At any rate, sister Rose is a very challenging sister in Christ to debate, and I'm sure she knows this is all in good conversation. :highfive:

Joe

[Rose]

At any rate, sister Rose is a very challenging sister in Christ to debate, and I'm sure she knows this is all in good conversation. :highfive:

Joe

Absolutely Joe! I love it.....:talk040:


Rose

[TheForgiven]

Well sister Rose, it's certainly a pleasure.

Speaking of Daniel, I think it's just as important to talk about chapter 12. We rare, if ever, give that portion much attention. In chapter 12, we see that Daniel is told that the vision he's been seeing pertains to the distant future from his point of time. It also speaks of a time, times, and half of time; additionally, we read the amount of days, being 1,280 days, and then 1,335 days.

Let's review the entire passage as recorded in the Septuagint.


Daniel 12:

12:1 And at that time Michael the great prince shall stand up, that stands over the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of tribulation, such tribulation as has not been from the time that there was a nation on the earth until that time: at that time thy people shall be delivered, even every one that is written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproach and everlasting shame. 3 And the wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament, and some of the many righteous as the stars for ever and ever.

This portion appears to be referring to the Great Tribulation Jesus spoke about when He spoke about the false Jews being forced to endure great tribulation and wrath. But here's the problem. If Christ were talking about the Tribulation in the 60's AD, then what does verse 2 refer to? A physical resurrection? Or the rebirth resurrection when we are saved? At this point, I'm convinced Daniel is being shown a vision of the resurrection that takes place sometime near 70AD. The only problem I have with that is this seems to contradict the resurrection that took place when Christ was raised. Yet if we believe that Daniel was raised in Matthew 28, then how does the Tribulation Christ spoke about, of which Daniel is told above, fit in with Matthew 28? Obviously there was no Tribulation of great magnitude during that time. Therefore, Daniel must have remained asleep when Christ was raised. More thought and prayer is required on Daniel 12:1-3.


4 And thou, Daniel, close the words, and seal the book to the time of the end; until many are taught, and knowledge is increased.

This is an obvious verse denoting a first century fulfillment. I know the Futurist love to throw this verse off thousands of years from Daniel's point in time.


5 And I Daniel saw, and, behold, two others stood, on one side of the bank of the river, and the other on the other side of the bank of the river. 6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, who was over the water of the river, When will be the end of the wonders which thou has mentioned? 7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was over the water of the river, and he lifted up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and sware by him that lives for ever, that it should be for a time of times and half a time: when the dispersion is ended they shall know all these things.

Here's the famous time, times, and half of times. Traditionally, this has been recognized as 3 1/2 years. In my opinion, this was not part of Daniel's seventy sevens. This is dealing directly with the destruction of Jerusalem, and Daniel's people, temple, and city.

But look at the remainder of the verse. I find this very interesting. It reads, "when the dispersion is ended, they shall know all these things...."

When did the dispersion end? Jesus said, "And Jerusalem shall be trampled by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled...." I believe the dispersion ended when the former temple and city were destroyed. Now some (especially the futurist) would propose that they are still in a state of dispersion. Or they will insist that the dispersion ended in 1947, or 1968. Needless to say, both ideas are not fit with Biblical facts. Israel has always been regathered as a purified nation; not sinful. Yet the condition in modern day Israel doesn't even come close to fitting Biblical standards; neither in works, word, or deed. Some perhaps, but certainly not the majority, especially when we consider the amount of Islamic infestation throughout Israel.

In my opinion, the Dispersion ended in 70AD, and the Israel they were promised was delivered by Christ, when He took His beloved Church and expanded Israel's borders beyond the limits of the Jordon, and the red-sea. To date, Israel has abounded to many parts of the world, and continues to produce fruit to all those in need.

At any rate, I believe the Dispersion ended in 70AD (give or take), and it was then that they knew and understand the reason for the wrath they suffered; at least those who survived the Tribulation understood.


8 And I heard, but I understood not: and I said, O Lord, what will be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go, Daniel: for the words are closed and sealed up to the time of the end. 10 Many must be tested, and thoroughly whitened, and tried with fire, and sanctified; but the transgressors shall transgress: and none of the transgressors shall understand; but the wise shall understand. 11 And from the time of the removal of the perpetual sacrifice, when the abomination of desolation shall be set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he that waits, and comes to the thousand three hundred and thirty-five days. 13 But go thou, and rest; for there are yet days and seasons to the fulfillment of the end; and thou shalt stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Purification, tried, and tested? John states this in Revelation, when Jesus explains to those who were faithful, that they would be spared from the time of troubles and testing that was about to come upon the entire inhabited earth. This was an obvious reference to the first century Tribulation Period.

Interestingly enough, it is the same Tribulation that St. John Himself endures. For even in chapter one of his letter, he writes, "I John, and fellow partaker in the Kingdom, and Tribulation....was on the island that is called Patmos...." John suffered in the Tribulation but as one being purified and tested; not punished.

Finally, what is the significance of the 1,280 days, and 1,335 days? Here's where I appeal to others for inputs.

God bless, and I await your responses.

Joe

[Rose]

Well sister Rose, it's certainly a pleasure.



This portion appears to be referring to the Great Tribulation Jesus spoke about when He spoke about the false Jews being forced to endure great tribulation and wrath. But here's the problem. If Christ were talking about the Tribulation in the 60's AD, then what does verse 2 refer to? A physical resurrection? Or the rebirth resurrection when we are saved? At this point, I'm convinced Daniel is being shown a vision of the resurrection that takes place sometime near 70AD. The only problem I have with that is this seems to contradict the resurrection that took place when Christ was raised. Yet if we believe that Daniel was raised in Matthew 28, then how does the Tribulation Christ spoke about, of which Daniel is told above, fit in with Matthew 28? Obviously there was no Tribulation of great magnitude during that time. Therefore, Daniel must have remained asleep when Christ was raised. More thought and prayer is required on Daniel 12:1-3.



God bless, and I await your responses.

Joe

Hi Joe,

I think the resurrection that took place in Matt. 28 was a sign of the power of what Christ accomplished on the cross, and not referring to the resurrection of Daniel that Martha thought Jesus spoke of concerning her brother Lazarus.
.
John 11:23-24 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
.
One strong point to support Daniel's resurrection occurring around AD 70 rather than after the crucifixion of Jesus, is the fact that at the point of Jesus' death on the cross He had not yet ascended to the Father to pour out the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.


Rose

[Edward Goodie]

Hi Joe,

I think the resurrection that took place in Matt. 28 was a sign of the power of what Christ accomplished on the cross, and not referring to the resurrection of Daniel that Martha thought Jesus spoke of concerning her brother Lazarus.
.
John 11:23-24 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
.
One strong point to support Daniel's resurrection occurring around AD 70 rather than after the crucifixion of Jesus, is the fact that at the point of Jesus' death on the cross He had not yet ascended to the Father to pour out the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.


Rose

This may appear to be completely off the wall, but are there any Scriptures indicating that the resurrection (you folks are speaking of) could take place PRIOR TO Christ's sacrifice as being accepted by God and proof of this acceptance by the Jesus returning from the most Holy place as the types and shadows account of Leviticus 16(?)...

Did what I say make any sense?:confused:

[gregoryfl]

Dan 12:2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life and these to reproach for eonian repulsion."


Mat 27:52 and the tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had passed away were raised;

One thing that is different about these accounts is that in Daniel's account, not all that are raised are saints, for no saint would be raised to eonian repulsion. In Matthew's account, only saints were raised.

Another thing to note is that only many, NOT ALL, saints, were raised. And they went into Jerusalem, no doubt as a witness to Christ's resurrection. I do not see any indication that they were raised in any way other than the way in which Christ had raised others, physical, and mortal.

Another interesting note is that in Daniel's account, it too, says that many are raised, not all. In John 5, Jesus says that ALL will hear his voice.

Joh 5:28 Don't marvel at this, for the hour comes, in which all that are in the tombs will hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 and will come out; those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.

Ron

[joel]

Dan 12:2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life and these to reproach for eonian repulsion."


Mat 27:52 and the tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had passed away were raised;

One thing that is different about these accounts is that in Daniel's account, not all that are raised are saints, for no saint would be raised to eonian repulsion. In Matthew's account, only saints were raised.

Another thing to note is that only many, NOT ALL, saints, were raised. And they went into Jerusalem, no doubt as a witness to Christ's resurrection. I do not see any indication that they were raised in any way other than the way in which Christ had raised others, physical, and mortal.

Another interesting note is that in Daniel's account, it too, says that many are raised, not all. In John 5, Jesus says that ALL will hear his voice.

Joh 5:28 Don't marvel at this, for the hour comes, in which all that are in the tombs will hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 and will come out; those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.

Ron

I am right there with you on this matter, Ron.

After being raised from the dead, Jesus was the first to be "quickened" by the spirit (zoopoieo).

All the dead will be eventually "quickened" in their order. Christ is the Firstfruit. We who are His will be "quickened" when He comes. At the consummation, all others will be also.

There is a sequence of events in the resurrection.......awakened, raised, made to stand again, quickened.

There is no indication that neither Lazarus, nor those raised during Jesus' resurrection were "quickened".

Joel

[Rose]

Hi All,

Please take note! So far it seems like we are all in agreement on the nature of the resurrection in Matt.28.....:grouphug5:


Rose

[Edward Goodie]

Hi All,

Please take note! So far it seems like we are all in agreement on the nature of the resurrection in Matt.28.....:grouphug5:


Rose

I don't think so, especially with Joel's comment:


We who are His will be "quickened" when He comes. At the consummation, all others will be also.

If Christ was truly the firstfruits of the resurrection, then in tune with the firstfruits of the harvest, one must carefully consider the FACT that the harvest HAD ALREADT BEGUN - else it can't be the firstfruit portion at all. It is this concept that is completely ignored by futurists...

[Rose]

I don't think so, especially with Joel's comment:



If Christ was truly the firstfruits of the resurrection, then in tune with the firstfruits of the harvest, one must carefully consider the FACT that the harvest HAD ALREADT BEGUN - else it can't be the firstfruit portion at all. It is this concept that is completely ignored by futurists...

Hi TruthSeeker,

What I was referring to is the nature of the resurrection in Matt.28, which we all (Ron, Joel and me) agreed was after the manner of Lazarus and the others whom Jesus raised from the dead.

Rose

[Edward Goodie]

Hi TruthSeeker,

What I was referring to is the nature of the resurrection in Matt.28, which we all (Ron, Joel and me) agreed was after the manner of Lazarus and the others whom Jesus raised from the dead.

Rose

I'm sick and shouldn't have posted anything...:ill:

[Rose]

My point is simple. We all agree that Daniel's seventy sevens was fulfilled in the first century. But I strongly believe that the final week was fulfilled with Christ. The "Spanking" would occur after the seventy sevens when enough Gentiles were brought in. That is why the Angel tells Daniel that at an appointed time, the Sanctuary would be destroyed. This logically indicates that the destruction itself was appointed outside of the seventy sevens. If we conclude that the destruction of the temple must be part of the seventy sevens, then why would the Angel state that this event was "appointed" instead of "included"? :winking0071:

At any rate, sister Rose is a very challenging sister in Christ to debate, and I'm sure she knows this is all in good conversation. :highfive:

Joe

Hi Joe,

One point I will reiterate that I think needs to be emphasized is what I brought up in a previous post, and that is the Jews and the Holy city are the antecedent of whom the first two decrees are determined upon. Those decrees are specifically being determined upon the Jews to finish their trangressions and sins (overspeading of abomination).

1. to finish the transgression
2. to make an end of sins


Remember the words of Jesus when he told that wicked generation of Jews they would be the ones to fill up the measure of their fathers sins, and it would end with the desolation of their Temple.
.

Matt.23:31- Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?....36)Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
.

This strongly suggests that the decrees given are contained within the 70th seven which then must end with Jerusalem's destruction, only then is their measure full.


God Bless,

Rose

[Rose]

Here's the famous time, times, and half of times. Traditionally, this has been recognized as 3 1/2 years. In my opinion, this was not part of Daniel's seventy sevens. This is dealing directly with the destruction of Jerusalem, and Daniel's people, temple, and city.

But look at the remainder of the verse. I find this very interesting. It reads, "when the dispersion is ended, they shall know all these things...."

When did the dispersion end? Jesus said, "And Jerusalem shall be trampled by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled...." I believe the dispersion ended when the former temple and city were destroyed. Now some (especially the futurist) would propose that they are still in a state of dispersion. Or they will insist that the dispersion ended in 1947, or 1968. Needless to say, both ideas are not fit with Biblical facts. Israel has always been regathered as a purified nation; not sinful. Yet the condition in modern day Israel doesn't even come close to fitting Biblical standards; neither in works, word, or deed. Some perhaps, but certainly not the majority, especially when we consider the amount of Islamic infestation throughout Israel.

In my opinion, the Dispersion ended in 70AD, and the Israel they were promised was delivered by Christ, when He took His beloved Church and expanded Israel's borders beyond the limits of the Jordon, and the red-sea. To date, Israel has abounded to many parts of the world, and continues to produce fruit to all those in need.

At any rate, I believe the Dispersion ended in 70AD (give or take), and it was then that they knew and understand the reason for the wrath they suffered; at least those who survived the Tribulation understood.



Purification, tried, and tested? John states this in Revelation, when Jesus explains to those who were faithful, that they would be spared from the time of troubles and testing that was about to come upon the entire inhabited earth. This was an obvious reference to the first century Tribulation Period.

Interestingly enough, it is the same Tribulation that St. John Himself endures. For even in chapter one of his letter, he writes, "I John, and fellow partaker in the Kingdom, and Tribulation....was on the island that is called Patmos...." John suffered in the Tribulation but as one being purified and tested; not punished.

Finally, what is the significance of the 1,280 days, and 1,335 days? Here's where I appeal to others for inputs.

God bless, and I await your responses.

Joe

Hi Joe,


My interpretation of Daniel's "time, times and half a time" is the period of time from the crucifixion of Christ till the Jews were scattered after Jerusalem"s destruction (approx 35 years). The text says that this amount of time is given to finish the work of scattering the Jews; that process started when the Jews had Jesus crucified (they had power at that point) and continued until all power was stripped from them and they were taken away captive.
.
Dan.12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time (moed), times (moedim), and an half; and when he shall have accomplished (kalah = to finish)to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
.

Now as for what the 1290 days and the 1335 days, my understanding is that those time periods are in reference to the last years when the Holy city was under siege, beginning in the mid 60's AD and ending with its destruction. I think the 1290 days is the point when the actual daily sacrifice that the Jews had continued to do was taken away, and then the 1335 could possibly be referring to those believers who escaped the fall of the city because they heeded the call of God and fled the city.
.
Dan.12:11-12 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days (1290). Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days (1335).


Rose

[TheForgiven]

Hi Joe,


My interpretation of Daniel's "time, times and half a time" is the period of time from the crucifixion of Christ till the Jews were scattered after Jerusalem"s destruction (approx 35 years). The text says that this amount of time is given to finish the work of scattering the Jews; that process started when the Jews had Jesus crucified (they had power at that point) and continued until all power was stripped from them and they were taken away captive.
.

Dan.12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time (moed), times (moedim), and an half; and when he shall have accomplished (kalah = to finish)to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

That's a very good point sister Rose. However, I test suggest that the persecution caused by the Jews happened in the book of Acts during the time frame that Stephen was stone, and Paul was converted. The Jewish Christians were scattered after the intense persecution by the false Jews. This of course was God pushing them into the Gentile nations in order to advance the Kingdom.

Now some Jews traveled to the Gentile regions to cause trouble with the Churches, trying to teach them to revert back to the Laws of Moses. But would myself would not count that as persecution. Rather, the intensity of their persecution (by Jews of course) was at its height during the time frame of Paul's early ministry, and the stoning of Stephen. Thus, in my opinion, by the time the Christians in Israel were scattered to the Gentile regions, thereby taking the gospels with them, I'd say that the time of the Jews reached their 70 Sevens. What remained was the advancement of the Gospels to the Gentiles, until the full number of Gentiles were brought in.

Thus, the Jews were not the sole persecutors of the Church. The Christians all throughout Rome were persecuted by Roman leaders, although much trouble was caused by the false Jews stirring up local leaders.

In short, the seventy sevens ended when the gospels went to the Gentiles.


Now as for what the 1290 days and the 1335 days, my understanding is that those time periods are in reference to the last years when the Holy city was under siege, beginning in the mid 60's AD and ending with its destruction. I think the 1290 days is the point when the actual daily sacrifice that the Jews had continued to do was taken away, and then the 1335 could possibly be referring to those believers who escaped the fall of the city because they heeded the call of God and fled the city.
.

Dan.12:11-12 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days (1290). Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days (1335).


Rose

This part, we are on full agreement. :thumb:

Joe

[Rose]

That's a very good point sister Rose. However, I test suggest that the persecution caused by the Jews happened in the book of Acts during the time frame that Stephen was stone, and Paul was converted. The Jewish Christians were scattered after the intense persecution by the false Jews. This of course was God pushing them into the Gentile nations in order to advance the Kingdom.

Now some Jews traveled to the Gentile regions to cause trouble with the Churches, trying to teach them to revert back to the Laws of Moses. But would myself would not count that as persecution. Rather, the intensity of their persecution (by Jews of course) was at its height during the time frame of Paul's early ministry, and the stoning of Stephen. Thus, in my opinion, by the time the Christians in Israel were scattered to the Gentile regions, thereby taking the gospels with them, I'd say that the time of the Jews reached their 70 Sevens. What remained was the advancement of the Gospels to the Gentiles, until the full number of Gentiles were brought in.

Thus, the Jews were not the sole persecutors of the Church. The Christians all throughout Rome were persecuted by Roman leaders, although much trouble was caused by the false Jews stirring up local leaders.

In short, the seventy sevens ended when the gospels went to the Gentiles.


Joe

Hi Joe,

I appreciate your sticking with me on this as I try and clarify where I'm coming from....:D

I think the scattering of the power of the Jews (apostate) and the filling up the measure of their transgressions go hand in hand. Both have a defined ending point exemplified by the use of the word kalah (to end or finish), and that defined end point was the destruction of the Temple and city as spoken by Jesus.
.
Dan.9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish (kala') the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Dan.12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished (kalah) to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished (kalah).
.
Jesus told his generation that they would be the ones who would fill up the measure of their fathers sins, that would continued until their house was left desolate....not one stone left standing upon another.
.
Matt.23:32-33 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?....36) Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
.

To really see how all these pieces fit together, one must rise above the time element aspect and look at exactly what the verses are saying.


Rose

[TheForgiven]

Hi Joe,

I appreciate your sticking with me on this as I try and clarify where I'm coming from....

Well sister Rose, as I indicated with pleasure, this is all in good fun. I do wish there were strong Futurist's, or Historicist's on here to debate these topics. Unfortunately, they are not here...no pun against Choew, or others who tend to debate with us from time to time. :D


I think the scattering of the power of the Jews (apostate) and the filling up the measure of their transgressions go hand in hand. Both have a defined ending point exemplified by the use of the word kalah (to end or finish), and that defined end point was the destruction of the Temple and city as spoken by Jesus.

I think where we differ on here is that I believe the height of their measure of sin was sealed when they persecuted the Churches in Israel, thereby causing them to scatter to Gentile nations. This, in my opinion, was an outward sign of God sending the Gospels to the nations outside of Israel. In other words, because of their "stiff necks", the gospels reaches as far as it could, and it was now time for the message to begin bearing fruit in the Gentile nations.

Now regarding the temple's destruction, that is the "spanking" that I referred to. The destruction of the Sanctuary would not occur until the "appointed time" had been reached. How do we define the "appointed time"? That, in my opinion, was when enough Gentles were brought into the Church, thus the finished Israel of God being ready to rule the world through the Gospel, and the witness of His Kingdom unto all generations. That's when the judgment took place in the 60's - 70's AD.

So the height of their sinning reached its max when the Gospels was sent to the Gentiles. And the "spanking" at the appointed time was completed in 70AD after enough Gentiles were brought in.
.


Dan.9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish (kala') the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.


I think what you're suggesting sister Rose makes sense. But only if one feels compelled to include the "spanking" within the same time-frame of the "sinning". Remember, there's the height of their sin, and the spanking/punishing/judgment of their sinning. Both need not be within the same time frame. Otherwise, the Angel would not have told Daniel that the sanctuary had to be destroyed at an appointed time.


Dan.12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished (kalah) to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished (kalah).

Remember, Daniel here prior to verse 7 asks, "What is the end result of all these wonders?" The answer was in verse 7. The end/conclusion of all this was the same vision as John sees in Revelation. John writes of how the Angel who lifted his hand to heaven, with one foot on the earth, and the other in the sea, was indicating that both land and water would become one. That is to say, both the earth (Israel) and the sea (Gentiles) would become one kingdom. The more territory the kingdom of Christ is advanced, the less "sea" remains in existence. Thus, Daniel 12:7 is not part of the seventy sevens, but the conclusion of what the seventy sevens were all about; the joining of all races into one kingdom through Christ Jesus. That is what Daniel 12:7 is alluding to.
.


Jesus told his generation that they would be the ones who would fill up the measure of their fathers sins, that would continued until their house was left desolate....not one stone left standing upon another.

And that is what I believe was fulfilled, when the Gospels was pushed towards the Gentiles. This doesn't mean that the gospels would have no more affect in Israel. Rather, God was allowing the message to continue on towards the Gentiles in order to stir some of the remaining Jews to jealousy. Consider the period after the seventy sevens as the time of wandering in the wilderness while the message would begin bearing fruit all throughout the Roman Empire. But the measure of their sinning was within the seventy sevens, which is when they persecuted the churches in Israel, murdered some of the Apostles (James the Apostle), persecuted Peter, and Paul, and stoned Stephen to death.
.


Matt.23:32-33 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?....36) Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

See my response to the previous paragraph.
.


To really see how all these pieces fit together, one must rise above the time element aspect and look at exactly what the verses are saying.


Rose

Well I certainly hope that I have done that. I could be wrong, but it is the only way to resolve the gap issue. After all, if we're going to insert a gap from 30AD to 70AD, then the Futurist's have just as much right to insert an even larger gap. Granted you and I know and understand the fulfillment of Prophesy in 70AD. But any form of gap would not make Daniel's seventy sevens make any sense.

There is of course another solution to the problem. Perhaps a gap is required, and not just between 30 - 70 AD. Perhaps a gap exists between the first seven sevens and sixty two sevens. Perhaps there was a small gap between the decree to rebuild Jerusalem, to the time they had to temporarily stop the rebuilding process during a short protest. Then, as the Septuagint reads, "The times shall return...." possibly indicating that the continuing to rebuild after regaining permission from the king represented the time frame of the sixty-two sevens to the end of the sixty two weeks. Then Jesus is crucified and another gap exists up to the time of the temple's destruction.

The problem with the final week is that the text states that the Messiah was cut-off after the sixty-two sevens, in the middle of the 70th week. This would mean no gap, but a rather long extension of the final week.

What then? The answer is no gap at all, from the time the order to rebuild Jerusalem, to the time when the Jews committed the height of their sinning, by crucifying Christ, stoning Stephen, murdering James, and persecuting the Churches in Israel. I'm under the opinion this was completed/recorded all in the book of Acts. Most of the Apostles were killed by Gentile rulers, so I'd say it makes sense that the book of Acts records the height of their (Jews) sinning.

God bless you my beloved sister in Christ. And tell Richard to unplug for a while. :lol:

Joe

[Rose]

Hi Joe,

It does seem that every position has its flaw or flaws, and I as you do not think there should be any "gaps"....that is why I hold to the position of the 70th seven unfolding into a continuous expanded period. Sort of like the 7th seal in Revelation which unfolds into sets of 7.

The main problem I have with your view is the uncertainty of the end of the 70th seven. It seems that all the transgressions spoken of continued from the time of the crucifixion until the destruction, and at no point did they cease. The only reason the transgressions of apostate Israel ceased in AD 70 was because the city, and temple were destroyed, the Jews killed, and carried away captive.

God Bless

Rose

[TheForgiven]

Hi Joe,

It does seem that every position has its flaw or flaws, and I as you do not think there should be any "gaps"....that is why I hold to the position of the 70th seven unfolding into a continuous expanded period. Sort of like the 7th seal in Revelation which unfolds into sets of 7.

That may be true, but as I've indicated before, if we insert any type of gap, then the text can be interpreted in nearly any fashion. That of course would lead to chaos with the different interpretations.

One clue we should consider for at least an obvious first century fulfillment of the seventy sevens is with the Jews themselves. For obvious reasons, they (the Jews) were looking for the arrival of their Messiah. The Apostles, when they were chosen, stated, "We have found the one/Messiah...." indicating that they must have an expectation of Him....not Jesus, but at least someone.


The main problem I have with your view is the uncertainty of the end of the 70th seven. It seems that all the transgressions spoken of continued from the time of the crucifixion until the destruction, and at no point did they cease. The only reason the transgressions of apostate Israel ceased in AD 70 was because the city, and temple were destroyed, the Jews killed, and carried away captive.

God Bless

Rose

Consider that the "height of sinning" doesn't mean they would stop sinning. How much more wrong can one commit other than nailing the Messiah to the cross? That was probably the highest crime one could commit, even though they did it blindly. To me, the persecution/murdering of certain Apostles would be nothing more than a "closed case", as far as I'm concerned.

Thus, the fulfillment of their sinning would have reached its max with the crucifying of their Lord, and then persecuting His chosen Apostles.

Keep up the good work.

Joe

[Brother Les]

9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.



TheForgiven
This is important because after the gospels left Jerusalem, and went to the Gentile nations, it is almost the same as those of whom Joshua led in the wilderness for 40 years. The original hearers of God's grace in the days of Moses were never permitted to enter the land promised to them; the physical land of Israel. It was the next generation that were permitted to enter.


I believe joe is right there at the Key of the bringing 'in' of the Gentiles....

1) who Are 'Daniels' 'People'? Are they only The Jews of the Temple Worship Cultus? ie Judah (Jews) of the OC? Absolutely not. Daniels 'People' were the "Whole House of Israel". The Northen 'House of Israel' became 'As' Gentiles and YHWH Divorced them. Was this 'Divorce' Forever? no. The'Divorce' was only FROM the OC Fellowship. The Seventy Weeks were also 'determined' for the Goem/Nations/Ephraim....YHWH swore that the The Promises of the NC were to 'The House of Israel/Ephraim' AND to 'The House of Judah'. We seem to always remember The Jews (House of Judah) but 'forget' 'The House of Israel'. Whom, by the way, was given The Birthright by Father Israel (Jacob).

2) The Holy City. Jerusalem. The Jerusalem Church worship at the Temple until they fled to Pella, but Jerusalem (Earthly) ended being the 'Holy City' when the Gentiles came into 'The Church' and the gospel was preached to 'The (Gentile) Nations. The 'New Jerusalem' was 'coming down' and the old Jerusalem was fading away. Paul tells the Corinthians that their bodies Are The Temple of God. 1 Cor 6:19, 2 Cor 6:16
'The Sect of The Way' did worship at the Temple in Jerusalem, But the Gentiles did not and were never termed as The Sect, ie. part of The Temple Cultus. Remember that (Christian) Jews were still under The Law of Moses as long as the Temple stood. (unless they broke completely away from it) 'Gentile' (Ephraim) were not under The Law and Peter said he would not make them come under the yoke that their (The Jews) Father could not even bare. Jerusalem was determined (70th week ended) when the betrothal went to the Gentiles (Ephraim)


3) the 'Jews' (House of Judah)Finished their transgression when they Killed their Husband and the betrothal was given at Pentecost. The House of Israel (Gentile Nations/Ephraim) finished their trangressions against YHWH when they were betrothed to the NC 3.5 years after the Cross. The Gospel was to go to The Jews First and then to 'the Gentiles' (House of Israel via Paul). If The Gentiles had Never Came 'in' (betrothed) then The Promises to The Whole House of Israel could not have come about..... The Messianic Jews NEEDED The Prodical Son, ie. Ephraim/Nations/Gentiles in order for the NC to come about.

4) The Cross 'covered' all Sins... but it could not Make An End of Sin....People continued to Sin against YHWH, Only the NC could do that (make an end of Sin). To make this 'end of Sin' come about the promises must be completed. 'A Promise' is only 'A Promise' but not a fulfillment until it is completed. The Whole House of Israel (Ephraim and Judah) had Sinned and The Whole House had to be made as a Virgin Bride.


Let us not forget that the Jews are not all of The Holy People. The Gentiles (Ephraim)must also end their transgression and that happened in 33AD at the completion of Daniels 70week prophecy.

http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=2houses-of-Israel

Blessings
Brother Les

[Rose]

That may be true, but as I've indicated before, if we insert any type of gap, then the text can be interpreted in nearly any fashion. That of course would lead to chaos with the different interpretations.

One clue we should consider for at least an obvious first century fulfillment of the seventy sevens is with the Jews themselves. For obvious reasons, they (the Jews) were looking for the arrival of their Messiah. The Apostles, when they were chosen, stated, "We have found the one/Messiah...." indicating that they must have an expectation of Him....not Jesus, but at least someone.



Consider that the "height of sinning" doesn't mean they would stop sinning. How much more wrong can one commit other than nailing the Messiah to the cross? That was probably the highest crime one could commit, even though they did it blindly. To me, the persecution/murdering of certain Apostles would be nothing more than a "closed case", as far as I'm concerned.

Thus, the fulfillment of their sinning would have reached its max with the crucifying of their Lord, and then persecuting His chosen Apostles.

Keep up the good work.

Joe

Hi Joe,

Instead of focusing on the "height of sinning", the text directs our attention to the sense of "filling up the measure of sin", that is why 70 sevens, and time, times, and half a time is given as the period in which to finish their transgressions leading up to the specified ending point. Everywhere we look in the text it speaks of going on unto the end and we know the end is the destruction of Jerusalem.

.
Dan. 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy....26) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Dan. 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

.
The reason your "spanking" analogy doesn't quite work for me, is because it isn't a specific event that the Jews are being punished for, but rather they are given a period of time to fill up the sins of their fathers (continue sinning) which included the killing of the Prophets, and Saints as we read in Revelation.

.
Rev.6:9-11 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.



Rose

[CWH]

I believe there is some numerology involved here in Daniel's 1290 days and 1335 days. Have you all guys noted that they add up to 12 and 12:

1+2+9+0 = 12
1+3+3+5 = 12

*Note that it may be related to Dan 12 :12. I am not sure of its significance here.

Dan.12:11-12 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days (1290). Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days (1335).

If you add 1290 + 1335 = 2625 (2625 years later? after Daniel's death).
And if you times 1335 together you get 1x3x3x5 = 45 which is the same result as 1335-1290 i.e. 45 days.

Many Blessings.

[Brother Les]

by Rose
Instead of focusing on the "height of sinning", the text directs our attention to the sense of "filling up the measure of sin", that is why 70 sevens, and time, times, and half a time is given as the period in which to finish their transgressions leading up to the specified ending point. Everywhere we look in the text it speaks of going on unto the end and we know the end is the destruction of Jerusalem.

What bigger Sin could there be than the Killing of your (as a jew) Husband/God on The Cross. that would sound as if their measure was 'full'. Would also, not The Sins of Ephraim be "filled up" in the context of the 'old covenant' or, as would really be in terms of Ephraim.... NO Covenant (old or new). Judahs sins were rolled forward year after year, but the sins of Ephraim were not. They were in no Coveanantal relationship with YHWH at all until 3.5 years after The Cross.




by Rose
The reason your "spanking" analogy doesn't quite work for me, is because it isn't a specific event that the Jews are being punished for, but rather they are given a period of time to fill up the sins of their fathers (continue sinning) which included the killing of the Prophets, and Saints as we read in Revelation.Rev.6:9-11 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

?? Why are you 'pulling' this into the time frame of Daniels 70weeks?? I don't think that it should be.

As with the types of the Sinai Covanant, 3,000 were killed 'on that day', but all of those who went into the Wilderness (save two) were already judged to Die in the Wilderness (their measure was filled up). Only those born in 'the Wilderness' could come out of it. Those of Judah at the time of The Cross were all given the Judgment death sentence, as also, had all of Ephraim been given the death sentence. All would fall in "The Wilderness" (because their measure was filled up)... But, those who were 'Born (again?)" in the Wilderness would be able to come out on the other side of the River as the virgin Bride of Christ.

At the Time of The Cross, the Husband had kept His part of The Covenant (contract). The Husband of the OC Contract was no longer involved with that contract as Husband. Nothing 'The Wife' (Judah) could do from the time of Her Husbands death would alter the terms (fulfilling) of the (OC) contract in any way, ie. the Wifes 'sins' are Full.... It did not matter what OC 'Israel' did after The Cross, The Blessings and Curses of the OC contract would be carried out on whom The Judge (Jesus) saw fit to carry them out on.


Brother Les

[Rose]

What bigger Sin could there be than the Killing of your (as a jew) Husband/God on The Cross. that would sound as if their measure was 'full'. Would also, not The Sins of Ephraim be "filled up" in the context of the 'old covenant' or, as would really be in terms of Ephraim.... NO Covenant (old or new). Judahs sins were rolled forward year after year, but the sins of Ephraim were not. They were in no Coveanantal relationship with YHWH at all until 3.5 years after The Cross.

Hi Bro Les,

The point is not the "bigness" of the sin, but rather what the text is telling us. The text clearly states that 70 sevens are determined upon the Jews, and the Holy city, to finish and end their transgressions, and sins. It is not speaking of Jesus finishing the transgression and putting an end to sinning....He bore our sins on the cross, but sinning still continues.

The Apostle Paul also speaks of the Jews at that very time (as an ongoing process) of filling up the measure of their sins, bringing upon themselves the wrath of God.
.
1Thess.2:14-16 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.
.



Rev.6:9-11 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


?? Why are you 'pulling' this into the time frame of Daniels 70weeks?? I don't think that it should be.

The reason I quoted Rev. 6 is because it most certainly is speaking of the same time frame as Daniels 70 sevens. There was only one 1st century time period when the brethren of the Saints and Prophets who had already been killed, would be also killed, thus filling up the measure of sin so all would be fulfilled....that is what the 6th seal is speaking of. These verses are speaking of the 1st century Jews, who were the last generation to live under the Old Covenant and to be judged by it because of their refusal to receive their Messiah.


Many blessings

Rose

[CWH]

I believe there is some numerology involved here in Daniel's 1290 days and 1335 days. Have you all guys noted that they add up to 12 and 12:

1+2+9+0 = 12
1+3+3+5 = 12

*Note that it may be related to Dan 12 :12. I am not sure of its significance here.

Dan.12:11-12 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days (1290). Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days (1335).

If you add 1290 + 1335 = 2625 (2625 years later? after Daniel's death).
And if you times 1335 together you get 1x3x3x5 = 45 which is the same result as 1335-1290 i.e. 45 days.

Many Blessings.

Hi Victor,

Any insight on this?

Thanks and Blessings.

[Edward Goodie]

Hi Victor,

Any insight on this?

Thanks and Blessings.

As long as you remember that the Hebrew Bible DID NOT have chapter and verses divisions...

[Rose]

As long as you remember that the Hebrew Bible DID NOT have chapter and verses divisions...

Hi TruthSeeker,

Are you familiar with the Bible Wheel? If not here is a link: Bible Wheel (http://www.biblewheel.com/intro/intro.asp)....you will be amazed at the hundreds of connections that use verse numbers, clearly showing God's hand on the chapter/verse divisions of the Bible.


Rose

[Rose]

I believe there is some numerology involved here in Daniel's 1290 days and 1335 days. Have you all guys noted that they add up to 12 and 12:

1+2+9+0 = 12
1+3+3+5 = 12

*Note that it may be related to Dan 12 :12. I am not sure of its significance here.

Dan.12:11-12 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days (1290). Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days (1335).

If you add 1290 + 1335 = 2625 (2625 years later? after Daniel's death).
And if you times 1335 together you get 1x3x3x5 = 45 which is the same result as 1335-1290 i.e. 45 days.

Many Blessings.

Hi Cheow,

That is very interesting indeed! I had not noticed that before.

One thought that comes to mind in thinking about the doubling of the number 12 in both the verse and the adding of the individual numbers of each unit of days, is that of the sealing of the 12 thousand x 12 thousand tribes of Israel in Rev.7, the 12 thousand furlongs for the measurements of the New Jerusalem in Rev.21, and the 12 fruits on the Tree of Life (12 fruits, one for each month of the year) in Rev.22.

So the use of the number 12 in Scripture has much to do with time (12 mo in a year), dimensions (temple), and God's people (Tribes).


God Bless,

Rose

[Richard Amiel McGough]

As long as you remember that the Hebrew Bible DID NOT have chapter and verses divisions...
You are exactly correct ... the chapter and verse numbers were added later. But there is a large body of evidence that suggests they are part of the overall design of Scripture. The most obvious example is the chapter structure of Isaiah which is recognized by many as a "mini-Bible" because its chapter structure mimics that of the Bible. Here is how the Introduction to Isaiah found in Thomas Nelson’s New King James Version states it:
Isaiah is like a miniature Bible. The first thirty-nine chapters (like the thirty-nine books of the Old Testament) are filled with judgment upon immoral idolatrous men. Judah has sinned; the surrounding nations have sinned; the whole earth has sinned. Judgment must come, for God cannot allow such blatant sin to go unpunished forever. But the final twenty-seven chapters (like the twenty-seven chapters of the New Testament) declare a message of hope. The Messiah is coming as a Savior and a Sovereign to bear a cross and to wear a crown.
The correlation is truly astounding and highly specific in detail. There are many profound links between the chapters of Isaiah and corresponding books of the Bible. You can read about it here:

Isaiah: The Wheel within the Wheel (http://biblewheel.com/InnerWheels/Isaiah/IsaiahBible.asp)

And here (http://biblewheel.com/InnerWheels/Introduction.asp) is the general introduction to the idea of Inner Wheels.

[TheForgiven]

Hi Joe,

Instead of focusing on the "height of sinning", the text directs our attention to the sense of "filling up the measure of sin", that is why 70 sevens, and time, times, and half a time is given as the period in which to finish their transgressions leading up to the specified ending point. Everywhere we look in the text it speaks of going on unto the end and we know the end is the destruction of Jerusalem.

One thing I noticed in previous times is that the time, times, and half-of-times may not necessarily be part of Daniel's Seventy Sevens. That is an event in itself dealing with the destruction of the temple. Thus, the time-times-1/2 times is all part of the "appointed" time of the Day of God's Wrath.

Now this should home in on ya sister. The Great Day of God's warth, as we all know, happened in 70AD.

Question: Is Daniel told anywhere that the Day of Wrath happens within the seventy sevens? Or at a pre-determined/appointed time? :winking0071:


The reason your "spanking" analogy doesn't quite work for me, is because it isn't a specific event that the Jews are being punished for, but rather they are given a period of time to fill up the sins of their fathers (continue sinning) which included the killing of the Prophets, and Saints as we read in Revelation.

As I previously indicated, their sins were sealed when they crucified Jesus, and persecuted the early church in Israel. The gospel was then moved towards the Gentiles, leaving the Jews in a state of "wandering in the wilderness", while the new children were being born. The wandering Jews represented the "woman" that John sees in Revelation wandering in the wilderness, where she is found to be riding this Scarlot Beast.

When we read of how the Jews saught intensely to plan/conspire to crucify Christ, we can see just how darkened their hearts and minds were. Thus, when they carried out their plot, their doom was certain. When they continued persecuting Christ's chosen Saints, they sealed their doom and were left unto the day of Judgment.

Again, as yourself. Is Daniel told that the Great Day of God's wrath happens within the Seventy Sevens?

Consider also this. If the Great Day of God's wrath is compared to a thief in the night, how could this not be predicted within Daniel's 70 sevens? For one, even the false Jews new that the time for the arrival of their Messiah was near, based on the Seventy Sevens. But none of them new of a pending wrath....at least not to my knowledge.

Summary: Great Day of God's wrath is not within the seventy sevens, but a direct "RESULT" of the seventy sevens.

Keep up the great work sister Rose.

Joe

[Rose]

One thing I noticed in previous times is that the time, times, and half-of-times may not necessarily be part of Daniel's Seventy Sevens. That is an event in itself dealing with the destruction of the temple. Thus, the time-times-1/2 times is all part of the "appointed" time of the Day of God's Wrath.

Now this should home in on ya sister. The Great Day of God's wrath, as we all know, happened in 70AD.

Question: Is Daniel told anywhere that the Day of Wrath happens within the seventy sevens? Or at a pre-determined/appointed time? :winking0071:

That is precisely my point; the 70th seven is given as the last unit which ends with the Day of God's wrath. The entire "last days" time period begins with the first coming of Jesus (birth) and ends with His coming in power and glory in AD 70 (quite nice bookends) though no one knew when that day would be. I think that is why God gave to Daniel the vision of 70 sevens without explicitly specifying the day for a year application, even though the day for a year fits most of the prophecy quite well (first 69 sevens), but if one tries to apply it to the last seven it doesn't fit so well.:winking0071: In that way the Day of Judgment would remain "as a thief in the night" not happening until the measure of their fathers was filled up...yet still be contained within the last seven.




As I previously indicated, their sins were sealed when they crucified Jesus, and persecuted the early church in Israel. The gospel was then moved towards the Gentiles, leaving the Jews in a state of "wandering in the wilderness", while the new children were being born. The wandering Jews represented the "woman" that John sees in Revelation wandering in the wilderness, where she is found to be riding this Scarlot Beast.

When we read of how the Jews saught intensely to plan/conspire to crucify Christ, we can see just how darkened their hearts and minds were. Thus, when they carried out their plot, their doom was certain. When they continued persecuting Christ's chosen Saints, they sealed their doom and were left unto the day of Judgment.

Again, as yourself. Is Daniel told that the Great Day of God's wrath happens within the Seventy Sevens?

Consider also this. If the Great Day of God's wrath is compared to a thief in the night, how could this not be predicted within Daniel's 70 sevens? For one, even the false Jews new that the time for the arrival of their Messiah was near, based on the Seventy Sevens. But none of them new of a pending wrath....at least not to my knowledge.

Summary: Great Day of God's wrath is not within the seventy sevens, but a direct "RESULT" of the seventy sevens.

Keep up the great work sister Rose.

Joe

One point I would like to clarify is the interpretation of the first 2 decrees:

1. To finish the transgressions
2. To make an end of sins

Those 2 decrees specifically state that it is the Jews who are decreed to finish their transgressing (filling up the measure of their fathers), and making an end to their sinning (sacrificing in the temple) ending with judgment upon the city.

Jesus made an atonement for sin, and brought in everlasting righteousness, but it was the Jews who continued the sinning up until Judgment Day....all this was happening within the last seven, but because the last seven was a unit unto itself its time period would remain a mystery, which only could be interpreted by the "signs of the times" so they had to be always watchful lest they be caught unawares.

As always Joe, I am enjoying our conversations very much...:talk040:

God Bless,

Rose

[Edward Goodie]

That is precisely my point; the 70th seven is given as the last unit which ends with the Day of God's wrath. The entire "last days" time period begins with the first coming of Jesus (birth) and ends with His coming in power and glory in AD 70 (quite nice bookends) though no one knew when that day would be. I think that is why God gave to Daniel the vision of 70 sevens without explicitly specifying the day for a year application, even though the day for a year fits most of the prophecy quite well (first 69 sevens), but if one tries to apply it to the last seven it doesn't fit so well.:winking0071: In that way the Day of Judgment would remain "as a thief in the night" not happening until the measure of their fathers was filled up...yet still be contained within the last seven.

One point I would like to clarify is the interpretation of the first 2 decrees:

1. To finish the transgressions
2. To make an end of sins

Those 2 decrees specifically state that it is the Jews who are decreed to finish their transgressing (filling up the measure of their fathers), and making an end to their sinning (sacrificing in the temple) ending with judgment upon the city.

Jesus made an atonement for sin, and brought in everlasting righteousness, but it was the Jews who continued the sinning up until Judgment Day....all this was happening within the last seven, but because the last seven was a unit unto itself its time period would remain a mystery, which only could be interpreted by the "signs of the times" so they had to be always watchful lest they be caught unawares.

As always Joe, I am enjoying our conversations very much...:talk040:

God Bless,

Rose

Philip Mauro suggests that the "end of sins" so commonly referred to by us is actually the "end of sin offerings." Besides, didn't Jews continue to sin even after 70 AD...

To me, those 6 things from verse 24 apply to the Lord Jesus...

[Rose]

Philip Mauro suggests that the "end of sins" so commonly referred to by us is actually the "end of sin offerings." Besides, didn't Jews continue to sin even after 70 AD...

To me, those 6 things from verse 24 apply to the Lord Jesus...

It matters not that Jews as a race continued to sin after the destruction of their Temple, just like everyone else continues to sin....Christians included. The point is that the last seven of Daniels prophecy was directed at the Jews who were filling up the measure of their fathers by continuing to offer animal sacrifices in a temple whose veil was torn when the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus had occurred.

You may want to apply all 7 decrees (I count sealing the vision and the prophecy as 2 decrees) to Jesus, but that's not just what the text says, its fullness applies to more. The Jews are specifically mentioned as the antecedent upon whom those 2 decrees are directed. They are the ones given the 70 sevens to finishing the transgressions and sins, while Jesus provided the way to accomplish that.

Rose

[Edward Goodie]

Has Daniel's "End of Sins" Been Fulfilled? (http://www.newcreationministries.tv/Questions/endofsins.htm)

...by Brian Maxwell

[Rose]

Has Daniel's "End of Sins" Been Fulfilled? (http://www.newcreationministries.tv/Questions/endofsins.htm)

...by Brian Maxwell

Thanks for the link, it was a good article.

In looking at Hebrews 9 we can say that Jesus put and end to the sins of many by His sacrifice on the cross, but He did not put an end to people sinning.
.
Heb.9:26-28 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
.
In Daniels prophecy the Jews were given a decree of time to fill up the measure of the sins of their fathers as prophesied by Jesus, thus finishing it, but that does not mean the Jews as a race put an end to sinning....nor has mankind as a whole put an end to sinning.


Rose

[TheForgiven]

In Daniels prophecy the Jews were given a decree of time to fill up the measure of the sins of their fathers as prophesied by Jesus, thus finishing it, but that does not mean the Jews as a race put an end to sinning....nor has mankind as a whole put an end to sinning.


Rose
______________

Greetings again sister Rose. As always, it's a pleasure to debate with you. And who says Preterist's don't have fun debating even each other. :winking0071:

Regarding the "measure of sins", I would not necessarily support the idea that the false Jews had a "measure" of sins to commit within a predetermined time-frame (specifically the seventy sevens) before the temple was ready for destruction. I think Jesus is simply stating that they (like their forefathers) would share the same guilt. I (for some reason) cannot seem to accept a notion that God (figuratively speaking) used a set of scales and waited for a certain number of their sins to reach maximum before it was time for the temples destruction. Seems to me if that is what He was doing, then we of all people are the more guilty. For I'm certain our sins were higher then theirs.

Thus, I think the "measure of sin" is simply sharing in the guilt/sins of their forefathers. They killed the prophets before Christ, and thus they also would be responsible in sharing the sins (guilt) of their forefathers.

Besides I think TruthSeeker is on to something; we may have been interpreting the passage wrong. I'm going to look into that a bit deeper.

God bless.

Joe

[Rose]

Greetings again sister Rose. As always, it's a pleasure to debate with you. And who says Preterist's don't have fun debating even each other. :winking0071:

Regarding the "measure of sins", I would not necessarily support the idea that the false Jews had a "measure" of sins to commit within a predetermined time-frame (specifically the seventy sevens) before the temple was ready for destruction. I think Jesus is simply stating that they (like their forefathers) would share the same guilt. I (for some reason) cannot seem to accept a notion that God (figuratively speaking) used a set of scales and waited for a certain number of their sins to reach maximum before it was time for the temples destruction. Seems to me if that is what He was doing, then we of all people are the more guilty. For I'm certain our sins were higher then theirs.

Thus, I think the "measure of sin" is simply sharing in the guilt/sins of their forefathers. They killed the prophets before Christ, and thus they also would be responsible in sharing the sins (guilt) of their forefathers.

Hi Joe,

Great to be chatting again....:D

The "measure of sin" is simply the continuing on until the appointed time given by Jesus. Jesus was the one who spoke to the Jews about the wickedness of their generation and told them the blood of the prophets would be required of them, not to mention the Jews themselves calling the blood of Jesus down upon their own-selves and their children.
.
Matt.27:25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.
.

Besides I think TruthSeeker is on to something; we may have been interpreting the passage wrong. I'm going to look into that a bit deeper.

God bless.

Joe


The word used in Daniel 9:24 for sin is chatta'ah, it is also used for the daily sin offering: like here in Leviticus, and many other places....
.
Lev.5:9 And he shall sprinkle of the blood of the sin offering (chatta'ah)upon the side of the altar; and the rest of the blood shall be wrung out at the bottom of the altar: it is a sin offering (chatta'ah).
Lev.9:22 And Aaron lifted up his hand toward the people, and blessed them, and came down from offering of the sin offering (chatta'ah), and the burnt offering, and peace offerings.
.

....Giving support to the interpretation of making an end of sin, meaning "ending the giving of the sin offering" in the Temple. As we can see a twofold meaning can be applied, both to Jesus sacrifice making an end to sin, and the Jews ending the daily animal sacrifice when the Temple was desecrated and destroyed.


Rose

[TheForgiven]

Hi Joe,

Great to be chatting again....



The pleasure is all mine. :signthankspin:


The "measure of sin" is simply the continuing on until the appointed time given by Jesus. Jesus was the one who spoke to the Jews about the wickedness of their generation and told them the blood of the prophets would be required of them, not to mention the Jews themselves calling the blood of Jesus down upon their own-selves and their children.
.

We are in 100% percent agreement regarding the measure of sin, and the blood being upon them, and their children. However, I'm still not quite convinced that the full measure of sin had to be achieved all the way through 70 (or to) 70AD. Historically speaking, they continued to reject and persecute Christianity even after 70AD.

Shimeon Bar Kaphba, the last false Messiah during the Jewish race, revolted against the Roman Empire in 132 AD. He, and some of his followers, also persecuted and murdered Christians.

Thus, I believe the full measure of guilt was completed after murdering Christ, stoning Stephen, and chasing the Churches all throughout Israel into Gentile nations.



The word used in Daniel 9:24 for sin is chatta'ah, it is also used for the daily sin offering: like here in Leviticus, and many other places....
.

Lev.5:9 And he shall sprinkle of the blood of the sin offering (chatta'ah)upon the side of the altar; and the rest of the blood shall be wrung out at the bottom of the altar: it is a sin offering (chatta'ah).

Lev.9:22 And Aaron lifted up his hand toward the people, and blessed them, and came down from offering of the sin offering (chatta'ah), and the burnt offering, and peace offerings.
.

....Giving support to the interpretation of making an end of sin, meaning "ending the giving of the sin offering" in the Temple. As we can see a twofold meaning can be applied, both to Jesus sacrifice making an end to sin, and the Jews ending the daily animal sacrifice when the Temple was desecrated and destroyed.


Rose

I'd stick with the first interpretation...the blood of Jesus made an end (atonement) for sin.

I'm under the strong opinion that the entire seventy sevens was not about Jerusalem's destruction, but about Jesus. He fulfilled everything mentioned.

It was He who made an end of sins, established everlasting righteousness, and seal up all prophesy and vision. The 70AD disaster was a conclusion of what transpired within the seventy sevens. "Cause" and "Effect". The "Cause" was their sinning. The "Effect" was the destruction of the people, temple, and entire city.

Joe

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

Even though 2 of the so called early church fathers (or more) also agree with Rose as concerning putting the desolation/destruction within the 70 weeks; I'm in agreement with Truthseeker.

There is at least one Hiphil verb tense in the last two stanza's (verses) which can get overlooked. I feel/believe that the last 2 verses are set in Hebrew Parallelism.

Here is a post I added on another forum; I started off by asking them to consider associating Dan 9 with the end of the mosaic covenant as found in Deuteronomy.


Ray: I'd be happy to do this with you, just present your case and I'll consider what you say, and comment as time permits.
For now; I'll just re-mention the association of these two verses.


Deut 31:29: For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt [yourselves], and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands.

Dan 10:14; Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision [is] for [many] days.

Deut 32 then talks about the 'end times' of the conditional national mosaic covenant and the religious political nation it formed. Dan 9 is closely associated with Dan 10 in many peoples eyes.



24Seventy weeks are determined
upon thy people (the people taken by the hand and led out of Egypt; mosaic covenant people; not the eternal covenant people: read the context of his prayer)
and upon thy holy city,
to finish the transgression,
and to make an end of sins,
and to make reconciliation for iniquity,
and to bring in everlasting righteousness,
and to seal up the vision and prophecy,
and to anoint the most Holy.

25Know therefore and understand,
that from the going forth of the commandment
to restore and to build Jerusalem
unto the Messiah the Prince
shall be seven weeks,
and threescore and two weeks:
the street shall be built again,
and the wall, even in troublous times.

Here are the last two verses with the Hebrew Parallelism highlighted.

26And after threescore and two weeks
shall Messiah be cut off,
but not for himself:
and the people of the prince that shall come (Heb 10:26)
shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;
and the end thereof shall be with a flood,
and unto the end of the war
desolation's are determined.

27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:
and in the midst of the week
he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,
and for the overspreading of abominations
he shall make it desolate,
even until the consummation,
and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Now merging 26 and 27 as a narrative;

26And after threescore and two weeks Messiah shall confirm the covenant with many for one week; and in the midst of the week he shall be cut off, but not for himself, causing (Hiphil verb tense) the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [the temple and city] desolate

Here the Hiphil verb is not used; the word FOR indicates that the overspreading of abominations is the cause of making the temple and city desolate. The reality of the cross (and other aspects) made the continued sacrifice and faith of the people upon them an abomination. They chose their own path of believing their leaders.

Compare Hebrews 10 (the whole chapter) where continuing to participate in the ministry of the temple and it's sacrifices is returning to sin and counting the blood of the covenant an unholy thing.

Compare Isaiah 1 and 66 which reference this time period:

Quote:

1:13; Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; [it is] iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

66:17: They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one [tree] in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.



and the people of the prince that shall come
shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;

Shall come and 'shall destroy' indicates to me that this coming was associated with the making of the temple desolate and were the results/effects of the occurrences within the 490 yrs. Thus the prince that 'shall come' and the desolation's are outside of the 490 yr prophecy; but caused by it.

and the end thereof shall be with a flood,
(as if a flood went over it)
and unto the end of the war,
desolation are determined.
even until the consummation,
and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Jesus said to the jews: behold your house is left to you desolate:
There is no longer any favor or power in the mosaic covenant. It's purpose was temporal and to expose Idolatry (among many other purposes.

[Rose]

Hi Endtimes,

Good post! You presented your understanding very clearly and with merit, but I am still strongly pulled toward the interpretation I presented, for two reasons.

First, starting the 70th seven from the birth of Messiah (until Messiah is 69 sevens) is fully in keeping with the meaning of the text, and allows the cutting off of Messiah (around AD 33) to be placed in the midst of the 70th seven, if we view AD 70 as the end.

Secondly, I feel the prophecy of the 70 sevens is given as a complete unit, inclusive of the last verses (26 & 27). It make no sense to me to mix up portions of the verses with what is going to happen beyond the 70th seven, when that entails a significant part of what is to happen at the END....especially when the cutting off of Messiah occurs in the midst of the last seven, giving ample time for the rest of the prophesied events to happen at the end of the last seven.


Rose

[TheForgiven]

I believe "EndTimes" and I share the same opinion. That's not saying that sister Rose is getting ganked. LOL! She knows we love her. :hippie:

I do not see the reason to include Jerusalem judgment within Daniel's 70 weeks. Remember sister, there's "Cause" and "Effect".

The "Cause" would occur within the seventy sevens, which equates to the 490 years, and the 490 years was entirely about events leading to Jesus on the cross. The "Effect" of their sinning would result in further "Overspreading" of rebellion that gets worse. The "effects" of their sinning would later result in judgment which was at the "appointed time".

So within the text, we read:

490 years until Messiah the Prince, and His being Cut-Off + overspreading of their Abomination/rebellion = Judgment of 70AD.

Here's the short version (490 years + Rebellion = 70AD)

It appears you're trying to use the following formula (490 years = 70AD)

I don't believe Daniel would understand it in this way. After all, he himself asked, "What is the end [result] of all these things [490 years]?"

Daniel was shown a vision of the 490 years, and he wanted to know the result of the 490 years. He was told not to worry about it, but many would be purified, and shine like the stars of heaven, while others would be condemned to judgment. In short, the 490 years would result in a predetermined Day of Wrath, or salvation, which ever they would join.

Hope this helps sister.

Joe

[Rose]

I believe "EndTimes" and I share the same opinion. That's not saying that sister Rose is getting ganked. LOL! She knows we love her. :hippie:

I do not see the reason to include Jerusalem judgment within Daniel's 70 weeks. Remember sister, there's "Cause" and "Effect".

The "Cause" would occur within the seventy sevens, which equates to the 490 years, and the 490 years was entirely about events leading to Jesus on the cross. The "Effect" of their sinning would result in further "Overspreading" of rebellion that gets worse. The "effects" of their sinning would later result in judgment which was at the "appointed time".

So within the text, we read:

490 years until Messiah the Prince, and His being Cut-Off + overspreading of their Abomination/rebellion = Judgment of 70AD.

Here's the short version (490 years + Rebellion = 70AD)

It appears you're trying to use the following formula (490 years = 70AD)

I don't believe Daniel would understand it in this way. After all, he himself asked, "What is the end [result] of all these things [490 years]?"

Daniel was shown a vision of the 490 years, and he wanted to know the result of the 490 years. He was told not to worry about it, but many would be purified, and shine like the stars of heaven, while others would be condemned to judgment. In short, the 490 years would result in a predetermined Day of Wrath, or salvation, which ever they would join.

Hope this helps sister.

Joe

Hey Bro,

I love you guys too....:grouphug5:

I also understand perfectly well where you both are coming from...:yes: it's just that I don't put the picture together quite the way you do, but that's OK, cause either way it still fits into the 1st century time frame...:D

Rose

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

Hi Endtimes,

Good post! You presented your understanding very clearly and with merit, but I am still strongly pulled toward the interpretation I presented, for two reasons.

First, starting the 70th seven from the birth of Messiah (until Messiah is 69 sevens) is fully in keeping with the meaning of the text, and allows the cutting off of Messiah (around AD 33) to be placed in the midst of the 70th seven, if we view AD 70 as the end.

Secondly, I feel the prophecy of the 70 sevens is given as a complete unit, inclusive of the last verses (26 & 27). It make no sense to me to mix up portions of the verses with what is going to happen beyond the 70th seven, when that entails a significant part of what is to happen at the END....especially when the cutting off of Messiah occurs in the midst of the last seven, giving ample time for the rest of the prophesied events to happen at the end of the last seven.


Rose

Thank you for the confirmation of getting the principles across.

If I get your thoughts correctly;your saying that 69 sevens were 483 yrs and the final (70th) seven is 7 decades. Is that correct?

I had looked to see if Christ was confirmed as Messiah at his birth, and yes he was. So that is a monkey wrench in the refutation of your principle. And it's difficult to seperate his life from his birth. But we would agree that his ministry did not begin at his birth but after his baptism.

I wonder if any of the things prescribed for him in 9:24 could be accomplished during the time of his birth through his baptism?.. In addition, he is called Messiah the Prince in Dan 9. I dont' know if that has any significance?

And I think your perhaps dismissing the importance of what you call 'mixing up portions of the verses". I guess those things jump out to me easier than some. Isaiah 61 is a wonderful example of more of HP. As is Isaiah 1 and both chapters 65 and 66. It is even in Jeremiah 31 where groups of verses are in parallel.
It would make sense that since most of daniels chapters seem parallel and over-riding another chapter, that these 2 important verses could also be parallel to each other.

Here is a nice article on the subject. I'm sure their are others.

Read more: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=67&letter=P#ixzz0eEp4NTpj
It is now generally conceded that parallelism is the fundamental law, not only of the poetical, but even of the rhetorical and therefore of higher style in general in the Old Testament. By parallelism in this connection is understood the regularly recurring juxtaposition of symmetrically constructed sentences. The symmetry is carried out in the substance as well as in the form, and lies chiefly in the relation of the expression to the thought.

Blessings.

[Rose]

Thank you for the confirmation of getting the principles across.

If I get your thoughts correctly;your saying that 69 sevens were 483 yrs and the final (70th) seven is 7 decades. Is that correct?

I had looked to see if Christ was confirmed as Messiah at his birth, and yes he was. So that is a monkey wrench in the refutation of your principle. And it's difficult to seperate his life from his birth. But we would agree that his ministry did not begin at his birth but after his baptism.

I wonder if any of the things prescribed for him in 9:24 could be accomplished during the time of his birth through his baptism?.. In addition, he is called Messiah the Prince in Dan 9. I dont' know if that has any significance?

And I think your perhaps dismissing the importance of what you call 'mixing up portions of the verses". I guess those things jump out to me easier than some. Isaiah 61 is a wonderful example of more of HP. As is Isaiah 1 and both chapters 65 and 66. It is even in Jeremiah 31 where groups of verses are in parallel.
It would make sense that since most of daniels chapters seem parallel and over-riding another chapter, that these 2 important verses could also be parallel to each other.

Here is a nice article on the subject. I'm sure their are others.

Read more: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=67&letter=P#ixzz0eEp4NTpj
It is now generally conceded that parallelism is the fundamental law, not only of the poetical, but even of the rhetorical and therefore of higher style in general in the Old Testament. By parallelism in this connection is understood the regularly recurring juxtaposition of symmetrically constructed sentences. The symmetry is carried out in the substance as well as in the form, and lies chiefly in the relation of the expression to the thought.

Blessings.

I'll check out the link you posted when I get a chance....thanks.

When I first looked at Daniel's 70 sevens, I took the approach of viewing it "outside of time" to try and get a fuller perspective without the constraints of time. In doing so I was able to view the whole end times picture (from Messiahs birth to the temples destruction in judgment) without having to put the significant events outside of the last seven.

I don't think it really matters when Christ's ministry began, because the prophecy states 69 sevens "to the coming of Messiah", then of course within the last seven time frame He must be anointed (and He was). One thing that I think is important to note is the reason that Messiah was cut off in the midst of the seven? Why not at the end of the seven? I think it is because the last half of the seven was to complete the filling up the measure of sin before the final consummation of the age.


Rose

[TheForgiven]

Just thought I'd tease sister Rose real quick with a short post. :D

490 years = 70 AD

<seventy sevens> = 70 AD

Seventy Weeks - represents time of ancient Israel
70 AD - Judgment decreed at the appointed time after seventy sevens

Class dismissed. :p

Joe

P.S. Just teasing you sister...

[Rose]

Just thought I'd tease sister Rose real quick with a short post. :D

490 years = 70 AD

<seventy sevens> = 70 AD

Seventy Weeks - represents time of ancient Israel
70 AD - Judgment decreed at the appointed time after seventy sevens

Class dismissed. :p

Joe

P.S. Just teasing you sister...

:hysterical:

What did you just say.....:huhsign:




Rose

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

One thing that I think is important to note is the reason that Messiah was cut off in the midst of the seven? Why not at the end of the seven? I think it is because the last half of the seven was to complete the filling up the measure of sin before the final consummation of the age.
Rose

I see your point a little better now; but still differ. Could you consider what things occurred 3 1/2 yrs after the cross/resurrection within the city/people which would confirm the covenant of mercy as an alternative? I agree that they 'filled up the measure of the sins" for the next 40 yrs... but filling up the measure wasn't part of the things listed in vs 24.

[TheForgiven]

I'm reading a great post from somenoe who believes the final week of the 70 weeks were completed at the cross. As soon as I'm done, I'll share his article with you; thus far, it's pretty compelling.

More to come.

Joe

[Rose]

I see your point a little better now; but still differ. Could you consider what things occurred 3 1/2 yrs after the cross/resurrection within the city/people which would confirm the covenant of mercy as an alternative? I agree that they 'filled up the measure of the sins" for the next 40 yrs... but filling up the measure wasn't part of the things listed in vs 24.

I view the the whole of Daniel's prophecy (verses 24-27) as an integral unit speaking about all that was to happen within the 70 sevens. When the term midst of the seven is used it implies an end to the seven, and that is exactly what verse 27 speaks of, saying that what has been determined after the midst of the seven is the overspreading of abomination that ends in the consummation.
.
Dan.9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one seven: and in the midst of the seven (shabuwa') he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
.
That is one of the reasons I feel it is important to view all four verses within the context of the 70 sevens, and why the last seven is divided in its midst, so as to leave the end part to accomplish the consummation.

Hope that helps, :D

Rose

[TheForgiven]

I think sister Rose has a fair point in combining the "measure of sin" into the seventy weeks picture. However, I don't believe the text of Daniel 9 suggests the "full measure of sins" as an inclusion. This was a bi-product of what happened to Christ.

One important fact to consider is that the entire scope of Daniel's seventy sevens was about one person; the Messiah, and what would happen to the Messiah.

Daniel is told that the Messiah would be cut-off in the midst (or middle) of the final week. The result of His being cut-off would later be the destruction of Jerusalem with a flood during the height of the war, which (according to Daniel) would be brought to a swift conclusion at the appointed time.

So the judgment of Jerusalem was not part of Daniel's seventy sevens, but a result of Daniel's seventy sevens. The entire scope and point of Daniel's seventy sevens was:

1. Declaration of the Messiah
2. Confirmation of the new Covenant
3. Cutting off of the Messiah
4. Establishing everlasting righteousness

That's the entire scope. Thus, the judgment in 70AD was a result of Daniel's seventy sevens.

Look at it like this sister Rose. Before judgment could be cast, a crime must first be committed. If you pass judgment while the crime is taking place (full measure of sins), then the seventy weeks time frame becomes mute. And keep in mind we're not talking about the entire seventy weeks, but just the final week. And the text merely states that the final week would include:

1. Messiah being cut-off
2. Covenant being confirmed.

The text doesn't say that Jerusalem would be destroyed during the final week, but that the temple and city would be [later]destroyed by the prince who was to come...i.e., Prince Titus. Or, by the Messiah Jesus.

In conclusion, the final week is all about the Messiah being cut-off, and Him confirming the message. The final 3 1/2 years was spend confirming the covenant to the lost sheep of Israel, to the Jews first. 3 1/2 years later, the confirmation of the covenant was solidified, and it was then taken to the Gentiles. The house of Cornelius was the first of Gentiles to receive the goodness of righteousness and grace.

Joe

[TheForgiven]

Just to recap, read the verse very carefully involving the final week:

26 And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one shall be destroyed, and there is no judgment in him: [and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that is coming: they shall be cut off with a flood, and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed he shall appoint the city to desolations].

This is how the text (in my opinion) should be presented. The sentence in brackets is not part of the Messiah (Anointed) being destroyed, but rather what would later happen as a result of them (false Jews) destroying the Messiah. Cause and Effect.

Cause: Messiah being cut-off
Effect: City and temple being destroyed because the Messiah was cut-off

27 And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: [and on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations; and at the time of the end, the desolation shall be brought to completion].

Verse 27 reads the same way as verse 26. The abominiation of Desolation could not have happened during the final week. Rather, the Abomination would happen near the time of the end.

Now lets read the verses without the additional supporting detail, and watch its meaning come to life.

26 And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one shall be destroyed, and there is no judgment in him. 27 And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away.

As you can see, verse 26-27 makes a lot more sense now, without being destracted from the events to take place at an appointed time apart from the final week.

Hope this helps.

Joe

[Rose]

Hey Brother Joe,

Sorry to be so persistent....:p but this is the way I see it.


Dan.9:27 And he (Messiah) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in 1. the midst of the week he (Messiah) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for 2. the overspreading of abominations he (Messiah) shall make it desolate, even until 3. the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
.
I like to break down verse 27 this way:

Within the period of confirming the Covenant (the last seven), three things happen starting in the midst of the seven.



1. Crucifixion of Christ is in the mid point of the seven
2. The overspreading of abominations continue from mid point (crucifixion) on until the consummation (of the Covenant)
3. The Consummation of that Covenant (end point of the seven)


I feel the New Covenant brought in by Christ, was confirmed for the whole period of time leading up to the Temples destruction (Paul says the Old Covenant was vanishing away during that time), which I see as the point of consummation of that Covenant, which was when the bride (New Jerusalem) became the wife of the Lamb.

Paul also seems to confirm that there was a period of time between the crucifixion and before the destruction of the Temple (which was the manifestation of Christ’s coming in power), when apostasy and lawlessness would continue and that would lead up to the time of the man of sin being revealed (which was at the end of the age, consummation).

I think we have two very valid ways of looking at these verses...:thumb:


Rose

[Battyus]

Hey Richard,



I don't see any support for the day/year idea in Genesis 29.27.
...
So though there are good reasons to think the 70 weeks are weeks of years, there is nothing like proof as far as I can tell.

I believe that Numbers 14 does give precedence to a day/year idea:
"33. And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years, and bear your whoredoms, until your carcases be wasted in the wilderness.
34. After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise."

Have a blessed day my brother!
Battyus

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hey Richard,



I don't see any support for the day/year idea in Genesis 29.27.
...
So though there are good reasons to think the 70 weeks are weeks of years, there is nothing like proof as far as I can tell.


I believe that Numbers 14 does give precedence to a day/year idea:
"33. And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years, and bear your whoredoms, until your carcases be wasted in the wilderness.
34. After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise."

Have a blessed day my brother!
Battyus
Hey there bro,

I was speaking specifically of attempting to use Gen 29:27 to establish the day/year theory. I had already acknowledged that the day/year theory is valid and established in Scripture in Numbers 14 and Ezekiel 4. (See Post #3 in this thread).

Many blessings!

Richard

[Codger]

I didn't know there was any problem with the 7 X 70 year (490) explanation. It fits history very well. Jesus was crucified on April 15th 29AD. I don't know this for sure, but this was also the year of the 29Th Jubilee, which was the middle of the 70th week. God has always been meticulous with the symbology of his planning. This was "The Acceptable Year of the Lord." So this is the main reason why I prefer this date. The Jubilee was a shadow or type of this day when the captives would be set free.

I interpret Daniel as follows...

NIV Daniel 9:27
27 He [God]will confirm a covenant [Abrahamic] with many [Israel] for one seven. In the middle of the seven he [God] will put an end to sacrifice and offering [the sacrifice of Jesus - once and for all]. And on a wing of the temple [Chamber of Hewn stones - hall where the Sanhedrin met] he [God] will set up an abomination [the condemnation of Jesus] that causes desolation, [Destruction of Jerusalem] until the end that is decreed [death by crucifixion] is poured out on him [Jesus - his suffering and death].

Comments:
27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one seven. Keep in mind that it was God who engineered every step of the crucifixion and it went over perfectly.

Confirmation of the already existing covenant of Abraham. Confirm, to make strong to reaffirm. Just like confirming a motel reservation that you made 6 months ago.

He is "God" and "Him" is Jesus - this solves the problem with pronouns. In the middle of the seven, he will put an end to sacrifice and offering.
God did this in making the final once and for all sacrifice of Jesus so that animals no longer had to be sacrificed.

And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. What greater abomination can you find in the first century than the unjust condemnation of Jesus? Some say that this relates to Titus and the fall of Jerusalem. The idea that the abomination was the Ensigns of the Roman army just doesn't fit. It's the Abomination-that-causes-Desolation – first the abomination and then later the Desolation. The Temple was totally burned out and destroyed [desolation] before the abomination arrived in the form of the ensigns – it's backwards and also doesn't make sense. Also, the Spirit of God left the Temple in 66AD and was camped over the Mount of Olives for 3 ½ years – (just like it did in the first destruction of the temple) it was not possible to profane or desecrate the Temple at that time because it was just an empty burned out building. It was God who sanctified the Temple – not the gold - not anything else. Besides for decades these same ensigns were located a scant 600 feet from the Temple and their was no complaint.

In short - the abomination was the condemnation of Jesus the perfect lamb of God. The desolation was the destruction of the Temple and the city in 70AD. But their were many abominations in that time frame.

I think the cross is the greatest event in the history of the world – all looked toward it and we look back on it.

Larry

[TheForgiven]

Greetings Larry. What a fascinating post! :congrats: We are almost in full agreement.

Before I post my difference involving the final week, let me first say that you, sister Rose, and I may differ on the 70th week, but we at least confirm that Daniel's weeks were all fulfilled in the first century.

Now, we agree that Jesus was crucified in the middle of the final week (70th week). You even went a step further and stated the date of His crucifixion. I'll just take your word for it because I've tried for months to calculate the exact month/date, until I realized that it's nearly impossible due to the differences in Calendars used during that time frame.

Our difference is with the Abomination that sets up the Desolation. Now it appears you are suggesting that the Abomination was the crucifixion of Jesus. Here's are the reasons why I do not agree.

Here's the translation from the LXX Septuagint Old Testament:

27 And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation.

"and on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations..." The Desolation has a beginning, and an ending. This Abomination must be included with the temple. As far as I'm concerned, I believe the Abomination was caused by the Romans surrounded Jerusalem. I believe it was the false Jews themselves do committed the abomination by entering the temple during the time frame the Romans began surrounding Jerusalem. It's my opinion that they Christians fled during this time frame when word was reached that the Romans were returning.

Another reason why the Abomination must have been involved with the temple is because of what Jesus told the Apostles:

15 'Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place' 16 'then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes.

As you can see, the Apostles were told that when they see the Abomination standing in the Holy place, then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. When were they to flee? When the abomination is set up, leading to the temple's Desolation.

What then is the Abomination? Well we know that they were told to leave Judea when they were to see it. So now we have to define the Abomination itself. Is there an answer? Yes, there is. The answer is in Luke 21:

20 "When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city.

And there you have it! Matthew 24 tells us that the Apostles were to leave when they saw the Abomination that sets up the temples desolation. And Luke 21:20 tells us that they were to leave Judea when they saw the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem. Now the armies themselves may not have been the abomination, but it certainly has something to do with it, or at least that time frame. For they were not commanded to leave Judea when Christ was crucified. They were commanded to leave when they saw the Abomination set up, and Luke tells us this happened when the Romans began surrounding Jerusalem. Therefore, the crucifixion was not the Abomination spoken of by Daniel the prophet.

Isn't it wonderful to see the connection at every point with God's word? I love it!

Finally, even though the Abomination took place in the 60's AD, this does not require that a gap be inserted into the final week. We know that Christ was crucified in the middle of the final week. This means that the remaining 3.5 years after His crucifixion was spent spreading the confirmation of the New Covenant to the lost sheep of Israel. This stopped when the House of Cornelius was the first of the Gentiles to receive the Gospel, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit without the official laying on of hands by the Apostles. When the Jews (Christians) in Jerusalem heard that God poured upon the Gentiles the gift of the Spirit, without Peter's laying on of hands (as was previously required), then they glorified God in saying, "Then God has granted the Gentiles repentance unto life...." by grace. Thus I believe the 70th week ended in 33AD...exact date unknown.

I look forward to your response my dearest brother in Christ Jesus.

The Grace of Christ Jesus be with us all.

Joe

[Codger]

Greetings Larry. What a fascinating post! :congrats: We are almost in full agreement.

Before I post my difference involving the final week, let me first say that you, sister Rose, and I may differ on the 70th week, but we at least confirm that Daniel's weeks were all fulfilled in the first century.

Now, we agree that Jesus was crucified in the middle of the final week (70th week). You even went a step further and stated the date of His crucifixion. I'll just take your word for it because I've tried for months to calculate the exact month/date, until I realized that it's nearly impossible due to the differences in Calendars used during that time frame.

Than you Joe for your kind words. I use Frank Klasson's Bible Chronology because I never had a problem with it to date. Klassen was an engineer who drew up the Bible timelines based on mostly scripture. He drew them graphically on his drafting board. It took him 10 years to complete the project in the 60's I think. Time is well documented from Alexander to now. Backwards from Alexander is a bit difficult. Klassen therefore worked backward in time until he arrived at the creation of Adam. He was created on Friday April 1st 3975BC. April fools day.

The Jewish calander is so botched up and their is no record of their years. The Sanhedrin was in charge of the calender and they were using a luner calender, which they had to continually adjust to match the solar calender. The reason was that all of their feasts were based on the different harvest seasons. So if they didn't compensate for the 5 day error every so often they would get out of sync with the harvest seasons. The big thing that they did was to add a 13th month every few years. It was called second Adar.[/B][/COLOR] So every so often one year may be 13 months.


Our difference is with the Abomination that sets up the Desolation. Now it appears you are suggesting that the Abomination was the crucifixion of Jesus. Here's are the reasons why I do not agree.

Here's the translation from the LXX Septuagint Old Testament:

27 And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation.

"and on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations..." The Desolation has a beginning, and an ending. This Abomination must be included with the temple. As far as I'm concerned, I believe the Abomination was caused by the Romans surrounded Jerusalem. I believe it was the false Jews themselves do committed the abomination by entering the temple during the time frame the Romans began surrounding Jerusalem. It's my opinion that they Christians fled during this time frame when word was reached that the Romans were returning.

Another reason why the Abomination must have been involved with the temple is because of what Jesus told the Apostles:

15 'Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place' 16 'then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes.

As you can see, the Apostles were told that when they see the Abomination standing in the Holy place, then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. When were they to flee? When the abomination is set up, leading to the temple's Desolation.

What then is the Abomination? Well we know that they were told to leave Judea when they were to see it. So now we have to define the Abomination itself. Is there an answer? Yes, there is. The answer is in Luke 21:

20 "When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city.

And there you have it! Matthew 24 tells us that the Apostles were to leave when they saw the Abomination that sets up the temples desolation. And Luke 21:20 tells us that they were to leave Judea when they saw the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem. Now the armies themselves may not have been the abomination, but it certainly has something to do with it, or at least that time frame. For they were not commanded to leave Judea when Christ was crucified. They were commanded to leave when they saw the Abomination set up, and Luke tells us this happened when the Romans began surrounding Jerusalem. Therefore, the crucifixion was not the Abomination spoken of by Daniel the prophet.

Isn't it wonderful to see the connection at every point with God's word? I love it!

Finally, even though the Abomination took place in the 60's AD, this does not require that a gap be inserted into the final week. We know that Christ was crucified in the middle of the final week. This means that the remaining 3.5 years after His crucifixion was spent spreading the confirmation of the New Covenant to the lost sheep of Israel. This stopped when the House of Cornelius was the first of the Gentiles to receive the Gospel, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit without the official laying on of hands by the Apostles. When the Jews (Christians) in Jerusalem heard that God poured upon the Gentiles the gift of the Spirit, without Peter's laying on of hands (as was previously required), then they glorified God in saying, "Then God has granted the Gentiles repentance unto life...." by grace. Thus I believe the 70th week ended in 33AD...exact date unknown.

I look forward to your response my dearest brother in Christ Jesus.

The Grace of Christ Jesus be with us all.

Joe

I am seeing two references to the-abomination-that-causes-desolation. The abomination of Jesus' being condemned to death is not the same abomination that Jesus tied to Daniel in Matt 24. I think the desolation is however. There were many abominations in fact an overspreding of abomination all of which culminated with the destruction of the Jewish nation. Zechariah who was murdered between the alter and the Holy Place was a definate abomination which was held in reserve for the desolation. So was the stoning of Stephen. James was thrown off of the paraphet in the temple and dropped about 38 feet to the marble floor below where they beat him to death.

Matthew 23:34-36 (NASB)
"Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, [35] that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. [36] "Truly I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation.

To solve this problem where do we begin? The only anchor point that we really have is Daniels phrase... "from the time the daily sacrifice is taken away."

Daniel 12:11-13 (KJV)
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. [12] Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. [13] But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

In our western 21st century culture it would fit our understanding better if it would have read..

And from the time that the abomination that maketh desolate is set up, to the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

But it still makes sense the way it is written. It is like saying there are 365 days from January 1st 2010 to January 1st 2009. It's backwards from what we normally would write in our day. They are looking for the number of days between two events - in this case the last recorded first.

The day that the sacrifice failed is a matter of exact historical record. This was under the siege of Titus in 70AD. It was 17th of Tamuz. A date recorded by Josephus an eyewtness to the fall of Jerusalem.


And now Titus gave orders to his soldiers that were with him to dig up the foundations of the tower of Antonia, and make him a ready passage for his army to come up; while he himself had Josephus brought to him, (for he had been informed that on that very day, which was the seventeenth day of Panemus, [Tamuz,] [70Ad] the sacrifice called "the Daily Sacrifice" had failed, and had not been offered to God, for want of men to offer it, and that the people were grievously troubled at it,) and commanded him to say the same things to John that he had said before, that if he had any malicious inclination for fighting, he might come out with as many of his men as he pleased, in order to fight, without the danger of destroying either his city or temple; but that he desired he would not defile the temple, nor thereby offend against God. (Josephus, Wars of the Jews, VI:93).

Now we have established the date of the failure of the sacrifice next we look at the next scripture

[12] Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

After the sacrifice failed for lack of priests to offer it - the Zealots surrendered - to the Roman's complete surprise - only 45 days later. Thus God shortened the siege of Jerusalem lest all of the inhabitants of Jerusalem perish.

Now the next step is - If you count backwards 1290 days from when the sacrifice failed (70AD) you will find The Roman General Cestius putting down a rebellion in Jerusalem (Late 66AD). The Zealots retreated both into the city and the Temple, which itself was a fortress. he waited for three days and on the forth he went after the zealots. The Romans were attempting to break into the Temple (which in itself was a fortress) to deal with the insurgent Zealots and the Romans easily passed the wall of Partition - the wall of separation between Jews and Gentiles. As you know gentiles were not allowed to pass the wall of partition under pain of death. The Romans decided to burn the large gate to the "chamber of fire" on the north side of the Temple. They dug underneath the wall under a hail of arrows (They were in the Tortoise formation) from the Zealots above on the Cloisters on the North side of the Temple.

They could have broken through the Nicanor gate, which was the main gate to the Temple in the women’s court, which was kept locked at night, but it was so massive and plated with Corinthian Bronze that they apparently chose the smaller gate to burn down on the north side. Thus Cestius and his army were swarming in the Temple area 'where they should not have been' - beyond the wall of partition inside of the Temple precincts. The day that they were to burn the gate - Cestius for some unknown reason decided to leave Jerusalem. The Zealots followed him and destroyed most of his army. The Jews were ecstatic - they thought they had won the war against the Romans. The Christians knew better and were quickly leaving for Pella - posthaste. The Legions came back with a vengeance over the destruction of their fellow soldiers.

Matthew 24:15-16 (NASB)
"Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), [16] then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains;

Mark 13:14 (NASB)
"But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where it should not be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Luke 21:20-22 (NASB)
"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is at hand. [21] "Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are in the midst of the city depart, and let not those who are in the country enter the city; [22] because these are days of vengeance, in order that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

The abomination, which was standing where it should not be was the gentile Roman General Cestius with his soldiers in the Temple. (The murderous zealots were likewise an abomination being in the Temple proper.) As I said - Gentiles were not allowed in the Temple. (This was the same at the other Abomination that causes Desolation spoken by Daniel, which happened when Antiochus and his soldiers occupied the Temple a couple hundred years previous.) Cestius’s army was also camped at that time on Mt. Scopus, which was north east of Jerusalem less than a mile away. Both of these signs described by Jesus involved Cestius and his army. This was the point where the Christians left town for Pella. Cestius was leaving town at about the same time.

Unfortunately, like you I have much difficulty with these ancient calendars. It seems that we have too many months between the time Cestius was in jerusalem and when the daily sacrifice failed. But one of the signs was an army surrounding Jerusalem and that's the only army that was in the vicinity at that time.

Larry

[TheForgiven]

Interesting point. I'll have to look into this much further. If you are correct, then Daniel was speaking of two Abominations that result in the Desolation of Israel.

1. Crucifixion of Jesus which happened in the middle of the 70th week
2. Daily Sacrifice being removed, and 1,335 days later, a miracle [This abomination would occur during the days of the Romans]

Am I understanding you correctly? I'm not sure yet, but you may very well be right.

Joe

[Codger]

Interesting point. I'll have to look into this much further. If you are correct, then Daniel was speaking of two Abominations that result in the Desolation of Israel.

1. Crucifixion of Jesus which happened in the middle of the 70th week
2. Daily Sacrifice being removed, and 1,335 days later, a miracle [This abomination would occur during the days of the Romans]

Am I understanding you correctly? I'm not sure yet, but you may very well be right.

Joe

Joe, The only way you can prove what I say is to read Josephus. It's all there.