View Full Version : The Keys of the Kingdom
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Matt.16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
Matt. 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock (petra) I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
John 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.
John 21:15-17 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep. He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
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The focus of the above verses is Simon BarJonah (son of a Dove) also called by Jesus, Peter or Cephas meaning rock or stone. Jesus tells His followers that the only sign that will be given to His wicked generation will be the sign of Jonah (Dove), He then proceeds to bless Simon BarJonah for his revelation of who Jesus is: Christ, Son of the living God, saying that flesh and blood did not reveal this to him. Then Jesus gives Simon BarJonah the name of Peter, saying that the church will be built upon him and the keys of the kingdom will be given to him. Simon Peter, son of Jonah is the Disciple whom Jesus commands three times to 'Feed my sheep', placing upon Peter the rock the responsibility of being the foundational pillar of the church who teaches the flock. Peter the rock will be given the keys of the kingdom with which to feed Christ’s sheep.
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Acts 2:14-17 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Acts 2:38-41 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
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Peter indeed was the central pillar at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was poured out, fulfilling the prophecy of the prophet Joel. Peter was the one who fed those at Pentecost with the understanding of receiving the Holy Spirit. The very sign of the Dove which his name BarJonah exemplifies was the way in which Peter would feed the flock of God.
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Zech. 3:9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stoneshall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving (mafteach patucha = key that will open) thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
Zech 4:10 For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet (eben habadeel = stone of distinction) in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.
Rev.4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightning’s and thundering and voices: and [there were] seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
Rev.5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
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Peter was called a stone by Jesus which also represents that which contains the Holy Spirit of God as shown in the above verses. In the book of Zechariah 3: a stone with seven eyes is laid before Joshua (Jesus), and a key that opens that Stone with seven eyes is mentioned. Then in Zechariah 4: that same stone in the hand of Zerubbabel is said to have seven eyes of God that go throughout the whole earth. Rev. 5 confirms the seven eyes to be the seven Spirits of God which are sent forth into the whole world. The seven lamps of fire (the Menorah) are called the seven Spirits of God which is symbolic of the Holy Spirit. Zechariahs stone with seven eyes set before Joshua is the same as the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with seven eyes, the same as the seven lamps of fire (Menorah) in Revelation, and the seven eyes of God which are the seven Spirits of God. All of these symbols are descriptive of the Holy Spirit, which leads me to the next connection of the keys of the kingdom.
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Isaiah 22:22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.
Rev.3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
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Isaiah speaks of the Key of the David being laid upon the shoulders of Jesus, and Revelation confirms that prophecy. Jesus who was of the lineage of King David, of the tribe of Judah, would be the one who would go to the Father to prepare for us who are believers, to be sanctified tabernacles by faith in Him, thus providing a place in which the Holy Spirit could reside. This door that Jesus opens with His key is the opening of heaven and sending the Holy Spirit. These keys of the kingdom of heaven which Jesus was to impart to Peter was none other than the opening of the doors of heaven and the pouring out of the Holy Spirit upon all flesh at Pentecost, thus enabling all believers who receive the Holy Spirit to bind and loose things in heaven and earth.
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Rev.3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Gal. 2:9 And when James, Cephas (Peter), and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
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Simon Peter, son of Jonah was indeed the foundation of the Church, one of the first who was called a pillar in the house of God. Revelation reveals to us that the pillars in the temple of God are the Church which is the New Jerusalem, sealed with the name of God which is the Holy Spirit.
Rose
EndtimesDeut32/70AD
01-04-2010, 02:37 PM
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19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
[/I][/B]Rose
A great overall article and connection. This binding and loosing part is seldom discussed. Any comments from the peanut galleries?
I think there is much more to this sentence than we typically give credit to.
Is it saying, those things which we approve on earth will be approved in heaven .... etc...?? Is it talking of principalities and powers, laws of the Kingdom and so forth?
A great overall article and connection. This binding and loosing part is seldom discussed. Any comments from the peanut galleries?
I think there is much more to this sentence than we typically give credit to.
Is it saying, those things which we approve on earth will be approved in heaven .... etc...?? Is it talking of principalities and powers, laws of the Kingdom and so forth?
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Matt.18:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
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I think what Jesus was speaking of when He said Peter would be given "the Keys of the Kingdom" to loose and bind things in heaven and on earth, is referring to the power of the Holy Spirit that would be given to enable believers to do the will of God in spreading the Good News to the world.
Peter, and the other Disciples were the first to receive that power at Pentecost, and it was Peter who stood and proclaimed that the prophecy of Joel whereby the Spirit would be poured out upon all flesh to be taking place at that moment. The Holy Spirit was the mystery of Christ revealed, whereby all who believed in the salvation given of Christ would receive the Holy Spirit. It was Christ who went to the Father so the Holy Spirit could be sent to man.
It was the Holy Spirit that Jesus said would be the one who would bring all things to their remembrance, and teach them all they would need to know; allowing them to go forth in power and preach the Gospel, binding and loosing things in heaven and on earth as needed.
Rose
EndtimesDeut32/70AD
01-05-2010, 05:12 PM
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Matt.18:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
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I think what Jesus was speaking of when He said Peter would be given "the Keys of the Kingdom" to loose and bind things in heaven and on earth, is referring to the power of the Holy Spirit that would be given to enable believers to do the will of God in spreading the Good News to the world.
Peter, and the other Disciples were the first to receive that power at Pentecost, and it was Peter who stood and proclaimed that the prophecy of Joel whereby the Spirit would be poured out upon all flesh to be taking place at that moment. The Holy Spirit was the mystery of Christ revealed, whereby all who believed in the salvation given of Christ would receive the Holy Spirit. It was Christ who went to the Father so the Holy Spirit could be sent to man.
It was the Holy Spirit that Jesus said would be the one who would bring all things to their remembrance, and teach them all they would need to know; allowing them to go forth in power and preach the Gospel, binding and loosing things in heaven and on earth as needed.
Rose
I guess I was wondering or thinking as to if there is something to the concept that if an individual (or the church group as a whole) advocates a law based living and 'righteousness' then it will be permitted and supported from heaven that way (for their lives); (and judgment on those terms also) If they support a faith and grace based living and righteousness, then that will also be supported in heaven for them (apart from judgment).
Edit: In addition, those who like Peter have the Lordship and deity of Christ revealed to them (in their Spirit) through believing in the authority of His person and/or words will by their new nature gravitate towards and advance a righteousness and living by grace/faith; thus binding (reaffirming the slavery of) law based concepts, and 'loosing' or freeing the principles of justification by grace/faith to 'all who call upon and receive His Person and Character.
Open to and wishing to hear other perspectives on this.
Do you think 'binding' and 'loosing' has to do with sandals and the feet that spread the gospel?
I guess I was wondering or thinking as to if there is something to the concept that if an individual (or the church group as a whole) advocates a law based living and 'righteousness' then it will be permitted and supported from heaven that way (for their lives); (and judgment on those terms also) If they support a faith and grace based living and righteousness, then that will also be supported in heaven for them (apart from judgment).
Edit: In addition, those who like Peter have the Lordship and deity of Christ revealed to them (in their Spirit) through believing in the authority of His person and/or words will by their new nature gravitate towards and advance a righteousness and living by grace/faith; thus binding (reaffirming the slavery of) law based concepts, and 'loosing' or freeing the principles of justification by grace/faith to 'all who call upon and receive His Person and Character.
Open to and wishing to hear other perspectives on this.
Do you think 'binding' and 'loosing' has to do with sandals and the feet that spread the gospel?
Hi Endtimes,
As far as your question about "binding" and "loosing" sandals, I have never really thought about it that way.
I have always interpreted the "binding" and "loosing" as being that of conditions in the "system of the heavens and earth". Since Christ brought in a New Heavens and Earth (new system), things in the old system could be loosed and bound through the power of the Holy Spirit. That is what I feel the Keys of the Kingdom that Peter was given was all about. Through the wisdom and power imparted (beginning with Peter at Pentecost) to believers from the Holy Spirit they could accomplished all things needed.
God Bless,
Rose
alec cotton
01-13-2010, 12:46 PM
I see it differently. I see it as a play on words which Jesus was very fond of to express an Idea. "You are a stone and upon this rock will I build my church." As for the keys: The lawyers held the key. They wouldn't go in themselves and wouldn't let anybody else in either. All who have an intimate knowledge of the word hold the keys. What they do with them is another thing. In matthew it is written "If any two of you agree on ant one thing concerning the kingdom". I think it was very unliekly that any two ever agreed on any one thing if it was anything like it is to-day. If you agree I take my hat off to you. If not , I'll take my jacket off.
In his name
Alec
terraricca
05-10-2010, 09:16 PM
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Matt.16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
Matt. 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock (petra) I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
John 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.
John 21:15-17 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep. He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
.
The focus of the above verses is Simon BarJonah (son of a Dove) also called by Jesus, Peter or Cephas meaning rock or stone. Jesus tells His followers that the only sign that will be given to His wicked generation will be the sign of Jonah (Dove), He then proceeds to bless Simon BarJonah for his revelation of who Jesus is: Christ, Son of the living God, saying that flesh and blood did not reveal this to him. Then Jesus gives Simon BarJonah the name of Peter, saying that the church will be built upon him and the keys of the kingdom will be given to him. Simon Peter, son of Jonah is the Disciple whom Jesus commands three times to 'Feed my sheep', placing upon Peter the rock the responsibility of being the foundational pillar of the church who teaches the flock. Peter the rock will be given the keys of the kingdom with which to feed Christ’s sheep.
.
Acts 2:14-17 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Acts 2:38-41 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
.
Peter indeed was the central pillar at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was poured out, fulfilling the prophecy of the prophet Joel. Peter was the one who fed those at Pentecost with the understanding of receiving the Holy Spirit. The very sign of the Dove which his name BarJonah exemplifies was the way in which Peter would feed the flock of God.
.
Zech. 3:9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stoneshall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving (mafteach patucha = key that will open) thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
Zech 4:10 For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet (eben habadeel = stone of distinction) in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.
Rev.4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightning’s and thundering and voices: and [there were] seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
Rev.5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
.
Peter was called a stone by Jesus which also represents that which contains the Holy Spirit of God as shown in the above verses. In the book of Zechariah 3: a stone with seven eyes is laid before Joshua (Jesus), and a key that opens that Stone with seven eyes is mentioned. Then in Zechariah 4: that same stone in the hand of Zerubbabel is said to have seven eyes of God that go throughout the whole earth. Rev. 5 confirms the seven eyes to be the seven Spirits of God which are sent forth into the whole world. The seven lamps of fire (the Menorah) are called the seven Spirits of God which is symbolic of the Holy Spirit. Zechariahs stone with seven eyes set before Joshua is the same as the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with seven eyes, the same as the seven lamps of fire (Menorah) in Revelation, and the seven eyes of God which are the seven Spirits of God. All of these symbols are descriptive of the Holy Spirit, which leads me to the next connection of the keys of the kingdom.
.
Isaiah 22:22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.
Rev.3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
.
Isaiah speaks of the Key of the David being laid upon the shoulders of Jesus, and Revelation confirms that prophecy. Jesus who was of the lineage of King David, of the tribe of Judah, would be the one who would go to the Father to prepare for us who are believers, to be sanctified tabernacles by faith in Him, thus providing a place in which the Holy Spirit could reside. This door that Jesus opens with His key is the opening of heaven and sending the Holy Spirit. These keys of the kingdom of heaven which Jesus was to impart to Peter was none other than the opening of the doors of heaven and the pouring out of the Holy Spirit upon all flesh at Pentecost, thus enabling all believers who receive the Holy Spirit to bind and loose things in heaven and earth.
.
Rev.3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Gal. 2:9 And when James, Cephas (Peter), and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
.
Simon Peter, son of Jonah was indeed the foundation of the Church, one of the first who was called a pillar in the house of God. Revelation reveals to us that the pillars in the temple of God are the Church which is the New Jerusalem, sealed with the name of God which is the Holy Spirit.
Rose
the Name of God is not the Holy Spirit ;the holy spirit is the true power of God
Richard Amiel McGough
05-10-2010, 09:26 PM
the Name of God is not the Holy Spirit ;the holy spirit is the true power of God
Hi terraricca,
Welcome to our forum!
:welcome:
God has many names. I posted a list (http://smilegodlovesyou.org/names.html) below that I picked up off the net. You will note it contains "Comforter" and "Spirit of God" and others that relate to the Holy Spirit. Since we have only just met, I don't know anything about where you are "coming from" - do you think that God has only one name?
I'm looking forward to your contributions.
Richard
* ABBA.............................Romans 8:15
* ADVOCATE.........................I John 2:1 (kjv)
* ALMIGHTY.........................Genesis 17:1
* ALPHA............................Revelation 22:13
* AMEN.............................Revelation 3:14
* ANCIENT OF DAYS..................Daniel 7:9
* ANOINTED ONE.....................Psalm 2:2
* APOSTLE..........................Hebrews 3:1
* ARM OF THE LORD..................Isaiah 53:1
* AUTHOR OF LIFE...................Acts 3:15
* AUTHOR OF OUR FAITH..............Hebrews 12:2
* BEGINNING.........................Revelation 21:6
* BLESSED & HOLY RULER..............1 Timothy 6:15
* BRANCH............................Jeremiah 33:15
* BREAD OF GOD......................John 6:33
* BREAD OF LIFE.....................John 6:35
* BRIDEGROOM........................Isaiah 62:56
* BRIGHT MORNING STAR...............Revelation 22:16
* CHIEF SHEPHERD.....................1 Peter 5:4
* CHOSEN ONE.........................Isaiah 42:1
* CHRIST.............................Matthew 22:42
* CHRIST OF GOD......................Luke 9:20
* CHRIST THE LORD....................Luke 2:11
* CHRIST, SON OF LIVING GOD..........Matthew 16:16
* COMFORTER..........................John 14:26(kjv)
* COMMANDER..........................Isaiah 55:4
* CONSOLATION OF ISRAEL...............Luke 2:25
* CONSUMING FIRE......................Deut. 4:24, Heb. 12:29
* CORNERSTONE.........................Isaiah 28:16
* COUNSELOR...........................Isaiah 9:6
* CREATOR.............................1 Peter 4:19
* DELIVERER..............................Romans 11:26
* DESIRED OF ALL NATIONS.................Haggai 2:7
* DOOR...................................John 10:7(kjv)
* END....................................Revelation 21:6
* ETERNAL GOD............................Deut. 33:27
* EVERLASTING FATHER.....................Isaiah 9:6
* FAITHFUL & TRUE........................Revelation 19:11
* FAITHFUL WITNESS.......................Revelation 1:5
* FATHER.................................Matthew 6:9
* FIRSTBORN (3)........................................Rom.8:2 9,Rev.1:5,Col.1:15
* FIRSTFRUITS............................1 Cor.15:20-23
* FOUNDATION.............................1 Cor. 3:11
* FRIEND OF TAX COLLECTORS & SINNERS.....Matthew 11:19
* GENTLE WHISPER.........................1 Kings 19:12
* GIFT OF GOD............................John 4:10
* GLORY OF THE LORD......................Isaiah 40:5
* GOD....................................Genesis 1:1
* GOD ALMIGHTY...........................Genesis 17:1
* GOD OVER ALL...........................Romans 9:5
* GOD WHO SEES ME........................Genesis 16:13
* GOOD SHEPHERD..........................John 10:11
* GREAT HIGH PRIEST......................Hebrews 4:14
* GREAT SHEPHERD.........................Hebrews 13:20
* GUIDE..................................Psalm 48:14
* HEAD OF THE BODY.......................Colossians 1:18
* HEAD OF THE CHURCH.....................Ephesians 5:23
* HEIR OF ALL THINGS.....................Hebrews 1:2
* HIGH PRIEST............................Hebrews 3:1
* HIGH PRIEST FOREVER....................Hebrews 6:20
* HOLY ONE...............................Acts 2:27
* HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL.....................Isaiah 49:7
* HOLY SPIRIT............................John 15:26
* HOPE...................................Titus 2:13
* HORN OF SALVATION......................Luke 1:69
* I AM....................................Exodus 3:14, John 8:58
* IMAGE OF GOD............................2 Cor. 4:4
* IMAGE OF HIS PERSON.....................Hebrews 1:3 (kjv)
* IMMANUEL................................Isaiah 7:14
* JEALOUS..............................Exodus 34:14 (kjv)
* JEHOVAH..............................Psalm 83:18 (kjv)
* JESUS................................Matthew 1:21
* JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD................Romans 6:23
* JUDGE................................Isaiah 33:22, Acts 10:42
* KING.................................Zechariah 9:9
* KING ETERNAL.........................1 Timothy 1:17
* KING OF KINGS........................1 Timothy 6:15
* KING OF THE AGES.....................Revelation 15:3
* LAMB OF GOD...........................John 1:29
* LAST ADAM.............................1 Cor. 15:45
* LAWGIVER..............................Isaiah 33:22
* LEADER................................Isaiah 55:4
* LIFE..................................John 14:6
* LIGHT OF THE WORLD....................John 8:12
* LIKE AN EAGLE.........................Deut. 32:11
* LILY OF THE VALLEYS...................Song 2:1
* LION OF THE TRIBE OF JUDAH............Revelation 5:5
* LIVING STONE..........................1 Peter 2:4
* LIVING WATER..........................John 4:10
* LORD..................................John 13:13
* LORD GOD ALMIGHTY.....................Revelation 15:3
* LORD JESUS CHRIST.....................1 Cor. 15:57
* LORD OF ALL...........................Acts 10:36
* LORD OF GLORY ........................1 Cor. 2:8
* LORD OF LORDS.........................1 Tim. 6:15
* LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS..............Jeremiah 23:6
* LOVE.................................1 John 4:8
* MAN OF SORROWS.........................Isaiah 53:3
* MASTER..................................Luke 5:5
* MEDIATOR................................1 Timothy 2:5
* MERCIFUL GOD............................Jeremiah 3:12
* MESSENGER OF THE COVENANT................Malachi 3:1
* MESSIAH................................. John 4:25
* MIGHTY GOD...............................Isaiah 9:6
* MIGHTY ONE...............................Isaiah 60:16
* NAZARENE.................................Matthew 2:23
* OFFSPRING OF DAVID.......................Revelation 22:16
* OMEGA....................................Revelatio n 22:13
* ONLY BEGOTTEN SON........................John 1:18(kjv)
* OUR PASSOVER LAMB........................1 Cor. 5:7
* OUR PEACE................................Ephesians 2:14
* POTTER...................................Isaiah 64:8
* POWER OF GOD.............................1 Cor. 1:24
* PRINCE OF PEACE..........................Isaiah 9:6
* PROPHET..................................Acts 3:22
* PURIFIER.................................Malachi 3:3
* RABBONI (TEACHER)........................John 20:16
* RADIANCE OF GOD'S GLORY..................Heb.1:3
* REDEEMER.................................Job 19:25
* REFINER'S FIRE...........................Malachi 3:2
* RESURRECTION.............................John 11:25
* RIGHTEOUS ONE............................1 John 2:1
* ROCK.....................................1 Cor.10:4
* ROOT OF DAVID............................Rev. 22:16
* ROSE OF SHARON...........................Song 2:1
* RULER OF GOD'S CREATION..................Rev. 3:14
* RULER OVER KINGS OF EARTH................Rev 1:5
* RULER OVER ISRAEL........................Micah 5:2
* SAVIOR...................................Luke 2:11
* SCEPTER OUT OF ISRAEL....................Numbers 24:17
* SEED.....................................Genesis 3:15
* SERVANT..................................Isaiah 42:1
* SHEPHERD OF OUR SOULS....................1Peter 2:25
* SHIELD...................................Genesis 15:1
* SON OF DAVID.............................Matthew 1:1
* SON OF GOD...............................Matthew 27:54
* SON OF MAN...............................Matthew 8:20
* SON OF THE MOST HIGH.....................Luke 1:32
* SOURCE...................................Hebrews 5:9
* SPIRIT OF GOD............................Genesis 1:2
* STAR OUT OF JACOB........................Numbers 24:17
* STONE....................................1 Peter 2:8
* SUN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS.....................Malachi 4:2
* TEACHER...................................John 13:13
* TRUE LIGHT................................John 1:9
* TRUE WITNESS..............................Revelation 3:14
* TRUTH.....................................John 14:6
* VINE......................................John 15:5
* WAY........................................John 14:6
* WISDOM OF GOD..............................1 Cor. 1:24
* WITNESS....................................Isaiah 55:4
* WONDERFUL..................................Isaiah 9:6
* WORD.......................................John 1:1
* WORD OF GOD................................Revelation 19:13
the Name of God is not the Holy Spirit ;the holy spirit is the true power of God
Hi Terraricca, welcome to our Forum :welcome: always good to have new input.
Yes, the Holy Spirit is the power of God which was manifest at Pentecost as the appearance of tongues of fire which they were sealed with. The Apostle Paul speaks of being "sealed" with the Holy Spirit, and in Revelation the 144,000 are sealed with the name of God. The Holy Spirit is that which seals us identifying us as children of God, thus symbolically we have the name of God written on us.
.
Eph.1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph.4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed to the day of redemption.
Rev.7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Rev.14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Rose
terraricca
05-11-2010, 02:23 PM
Hi terraricca,
Welcome to our forum!
:welcome:
God has many names. I posted a list (http://smilegodlovesyou.org/names.html) below that I picked up off the net. You will note it contains "Comforter" and "Spirit of God" and others that relate to the Holy Spirit. Since we have only just met, I don't know anything about where you are "coming from" - do you think that God has only one name?
I'm looking forward to your contributions.
Richard
* ABBA.............................Romans 8:15
* ADVOCATE.........................I John 2:1 (kjv)
* ALMIGHTY.........................Genesis 17:1
* ALPHA............................Revelation 22:13
* AMEN.............................Revelation 3:14
* ANCIENT OF DAYS..................Daniel 7:9
* ANOINTED ONE.....................Psalm 2:2
* APOSTLE..........................Hebrews 3:1
* ARM OF THE LORD..................Isaiah 53:1
* AUTHOR OF LIFE...................Acts 3:15
* AUTHOR OF OUR FAITH..............Hebrews 12:2
* BEGINNING.........................Revelation 21:6
* BLESSED & HOLY RULER..............1 Timothy 6:15
* BRANCH............................Jeremiah 33:15
* BREAD OF GOD......................John 6:33
* BREAD OF LIFE.....................John 6:35
* BRIDEGROOM........................Isaiah 62:56
* BRIGHT MORNING STAR...............Revelation 22:16
* CHIEF SHEPHERD.....................1 Peter 5:4
* CHOSEN ONE.........................Isaiah 42:1
* CHRIST.............................Matthew 22:42
* CHRIST OF GOD......................Luke 9:20
* CHRIST THE LORD....................Luke 2:11
* CHRIST, SON OF LIVING GOD..........Matthew 16:16
* COMFORTER..........................John 14:26(kjv)
* COMMANDER..........................Isaiah 55:4
* CONSOLATION OF ISRAEL...............Luke 2:25
* CONSUMING FIRE......................Deut. 4:24, Heb. 12:29
* CORNERSTONE.........................Isaiah 28:16
* COUNSELOR...........................Isaiah 9:6
* CREATOR.............................1 Peter 4:19
* DELIVERER..............................Romans 11:26
* DESIRED OF ALL NATIONS.................Haggai 2:7
* DOOR...................................John 10:7(kjv)
* END....................................Revelation 21:6
* ETERNAL GOD............................Deut. 33:27
* EVERLASTING FATHER.....................Isaiah 9:6
* FAITHFUL & TRUE........................Revelation 19:11
* FAITHFUL WITNESS.......................Revelation 1:5
* FATHER.................................Matthew 6:9
* FIRSTBORN (3)........................................Rom.8:2 9,Rev.1:5,Col.1:15
* FIRSTFRUITS............................1 Cor.15:20-23
* FOUNDATION.............................1 Cor. 3:11
* FRIEND OF TAX COLLECTORS & SINNERS.....Matthew 11:19
* GENTLE WHISPER.........................1 Kings 19:12
* GIFT OF GOD............................John 4:10
* GLORY OF THE LORD......................Isaiah 40:5
* GOD....................................Genesis 1:1
* GOD ALMIGHTY...........................Genesis 17:1
* GOD OVER ALL...........................Romans 9:5
* GOD WHO SEES ME........................Genesis 16:13
* GOOD SHEPHERD..........................John 10:11
* GREAT HIGH PRIEST......................Hebrews 4:14
* GREAT SHEPHERD.........................Hebrews 13:20
* GUIDE..................................Psalm 48:14
* HEAD OF THE BODY.......................Colossians 1:18
* HEAD OF THE CHURCH.....................Ephesians 5:23
* HEIR OF ALL THINGS.....................Hebrews 1:2
* HIGH PRIEST............................Hebrews 3:1
* HIGH PRIEST FOREVER....................Hebrews 6:20
* HOLY ONE...............................Acts 2:27
* HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL.....................Isaiah 49:7
* HOLY SPIRIT............................John 15:26
* HOPE...................................Titus 2:13
* HORN OF SALVATION......................Luke 1:69
* I AM....................................Exodus 3:14, John 8:58
* IMAGE OF GOD............................2 Cor. 4:4
* IMAGE OF HIS PERSON.....................Hebrews 1:3 (kjv)
* IMMANUEL................................Isaiah 7:14
* JEALOUS..............................Exodus 34:14 (kjv)
* JEHOVAH..............................Psalm 83:18 (kjv)
* JESUS................................Matthew 1:21
* JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD................Romans 6:23
* JUDGE................................Isaiah 33:22, Acts 10:42
* KING.................................Zechariah 9:9
* KING ETERNAL.........................1 Timothy 1:17
* KING OF KINGS........................1 Timothy 6:15
* KING OF THE AGES.....................Revelation 15:3
* LAMB OF GOD...........................John 1:29
* LAST ADAM.............................1 Cor. 15:45
* LAWGIVER..............................Isaiah 33:22
* LEADER................................Isaiah 55:4
* LIFE..................................John 14:6
* LIGHT OF THE WORLD....................John 8:12
* LIKE AN EAGLE.........................Deut. 32:11
* LILY OF THE VALLEYS...................Song 2:1
* LION OF THE TRIBE OF JUDAH............Revelation 5:5
* LIVING STONE..........................1 Peter 2:4
* LIVING WATER..........................John 4:10
* LORD..................................John 13:13
* LORD GOD ALMIGHTY.....................Revelation 15:3
* LORD JESUS CHRIST.....................1 Cor. 15:57
* LORD OF ALL...........................Acts 10:36
* LORD OF GLORY ........................1 Cor. 2:8
* LORD OF LORDS.........................1 Tim. 6:15
* LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS..............Jeremiah 23:6
* LOVE.................................1 John 4:8
* MAN OF SORROWS.........................Isaiah 53:3
* MASTER..................................Luke 5:5
* MEDIATOR................................1 Timothy 2:5
* MERCIFUL GOD............................Jeremiah 3:12
* MESSENGER OF THE COVENANT................Malachi 3:1
* MESSIAH................................. John 4:25
* MIGHTY GOD...............................Isaiah 9:6
* MIGHTY ONE...............................Isaiah 60:16
* NAZARENE.................................Matthew 2:23
* OFFSPRING OF DAVID.......................Revelation 22:16
* OMEGA....................................Revelatio n 22:13
* ONLY BEGOTTEN SON........................John 1:18(kjv)
* OUR PASSOVER LAMB........................1 Cor. 5:7
* OUR PEACE................................Ephesians 2:14
* POTTER...................................Isaiah 64:8
* POWER OF GOD.............................1 Cor. 1:24
* PRINCE OF PEACE..........................Isaiah 9:6
* PROPHET..................................Acts 3:22
* PURIFIER.................................Malachi 3:3
* RABBONI (TEACHER)........................John 20:16
* RADIANCE OF GOD'S GLORY..................Heb.1:3
* REDEEMER.................................Job 19:25
* REFINER'S FIRE...........................Malachi 3:2
* RESURRECTION.............................John 11:25
* RIGHTEOUS ONE............................1 John 2:1
* ROCK.....................................1 Cor.10:4
* ROOT OF DAVID............................Rev. 22:16
* ROSE OF SHARON...........................Song 2:1
* RULER OF GOD'S CREATION..................Rev. 3:14
* RULER OVER KINGS OF EARTH................Rev 1:5
* RULER OVER ISRAEL........................Micah 5:2
* SAVIOR...................................Luke 2:11
* SCEPTER OUT OF ISRAEL....................Numbers 24:17
* SEED.....................................Genesis 3:15
* SERVANT..................................Isaiah 42:1
* SHEPHERD OF OUR SOULS....................1Peter 2:25
* SHIELD...................................Genesis 15:1
* SON OF DAVID.............................Matthew 1:1
* SON OF GOD...............................Matthew 27:54
* SON OF MAN...............................Matthew 8:20
* SON OF THE MOST HIGH.....................Luke 1:32
* SOURCE...................................Hebrews 5:9
* SPIRIT OF GOD............................Genesis 1:2
* STAR OUT OF JACOB........................Numbers 24:17
* STONE....................................1 Peter 2:8
* SUN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS.....................Malachi 4:2
* TEACHER...................................John 13:13
* TRUE LIGHT................................John 1:9
* TRUE WITNESS..............................Revelation 3:14
* TRUTH.....................................John 14:6
* VINE......................................John 15:5
* WAY........................................John 14:6
* WISDOM OF GOD..............................1 Cor. 1:24
* WITNESS....................................Isaiah 55:4
* WONDERFUL..................................Isaiah 9:6
* WORD.......................................John 1:1
* WORD OF GOD................................Revelation 19:13
hi Richard
yes i believe that God does not need many names one would be plenty,all the so called names you quote me are in reality descriptions or actions of God,
and also i have the feeling that you believe in the trinity?
i do not,
Pierre
Richard Amiel McGough
05-11-2010, 02:47 PM
hi Richard
yes i believe that God does not need many names one would be plenty,all the so called names you quote me are in reality descriptions or actions of God,
and also i have the feeling that you believe in the trinity?
i do not,
Pierre
Hi Pierre,
I thought that was what prompted your comment. :winking0071:
Many folks who oppose the Trinity begin with a thing about the "names" of God.
In answer to your question - yes, I believe that the Doctrine of the Trinity is a valid statement of what the Bible teaches. To be clear, let me state it for you so we have something to work with:
1: God is ONE.
2a: Scripture declares the Father is God
2b: Scripture declares the Son is God
2c: Scripture declares the Spirit is God
3: The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Spirit, the Spirit is not the Father
I look forward to discussing this with you.
All the best,
Richard
terraricca
05-11-2010, 07:32 PM
hi Richard
first the Father means God in essence,he is the origin of all things;so he is alone God.
secondly the Son as a beginning so he is of God, not God ,he can be a God he as been taken from God.the son will always be the closes we will ever come to God on earth.
the spirit is of God ;remind me were there is a scripture telling that the spirit IS God ??
regards
Pierre
Richard Amiel McGough
05-11-2010, 10:02 PM
hi Richard
first the Father means God in essence,he is the origin of all things;so he is alone God.
secondly the Son as a beginning so he is of God, not God ,he can be a God he as been taken from God.the son will always be the closes we will ever come to God on earth.
the spirit is of God ;remind me were there is a scripture telling that the spirit IS God ??
regards
Pierre
Hey there Pierre,
There are many different ways to approach the question of the Trinity. I will start with your assertion that the Son is not God. How then do we understand John 1:1 "the Word was God?" We know the Word is a name of the Son, for indeed "the Word was made flesh" and also "His name is called the Word of God."
Richard
terraricca
05-11-2010, 10:47 PM
Hey there Pierre,
There are many different ways to approach the question of the Trinity. I will start with your assertion that the Son is not God. How then do we understand John 1:1 "the Word was God?" We know the Word is a name of the Son, for indeed "the Word was made flesh" and also "His name is called the Word of God."
Richard
hi richard
i already answered that question by stating that the word as a beginning and so is not God but is of God,of cause anyone can truthfully say before he was begotten he was God
but wen God begotten his Son he was no longer God ,but became God for all creation there after,just like Moses became god to his brother Aaron,
now if you will use;; Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jn 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.
Jn 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
Jn 1:4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men
i would like that you walk me trough every word used in that scripture ,and not only use; the Word was God;this would not be true unless you can answer all the question relevant to the other words like;beginning;was with God;Through him all things were made;ect;
and let only use scriptures .
regards
Pierre
terraricca
05-12-2010, 09:13 PM
Hi Terraricca, welcome to our Forum :welcome: always good to have new input.
Yes, the Holy Spirit is the power of God which was manifest at Pentecost as the appearance of tongues of fire which they were sealed with. The Apostle Paul speaks of being "sealed" with the Holy Spirit, and in Revelation the 144,000 are sealed with the name of God. The Holy Spirit is that which seals us identifying us as children of God, thus symbolically we have the name of God written on us.
.
Eph.1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph.4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed to the day of redemption.
Rev.7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Rev.14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Rose
hi Rose
i always thought the 144000 are the only one who are going to be with Christ and are part of the body to become the spiritual temple of God,
if this is true, there should not many of us being called to join Christ is it ??
the most of us will be part of the great crowd in front of the throne what you think??
Richard Amiel McGough
05-13-2010, 11:18 PM
now if you will use;; Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jn 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.
Jn 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
Jn 1:4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men
i would like that you walk me trough every word used in that scripture ,and not only use; the Word was God;this would not be true unless you can answer all the question relevant to the other words like;beginning;was with God;Through him all things were made;ect;
and let only use scriptures .
regards
Pierre
Yes, let's use only Scripture.
John 1:1 begins En arche = In the beginning. This is the same beginning as Genesis 1:1.
Then it says ēn ho logos = was the word. Thus, the word was in the beginning before God created anything.
Then it says kai ho logos ēn pros ton theon = and the word was with God, or more literally, was before (in front of, in the presence of) God.
And then it says kai Theos ēn ho logos = and God was the word.
Richard
terraricca
05-14-2010, 08:58 AM
Yes, let's use only Scripture.
John 1:1 begins En arche = In the beginning. This is the same beginning as Genesis 1:1.
Then it says ēn ho logos = was the word. Thus, the word was in the beginning before God created anything.
Then it says kai ho logos ēn pros ton theon = and the word was with God, or more literally, was before (in front of, in the presence of) God.
And then it says kai Theos ēn ho logos = and God was the word.
Richard
hi Richard
what do you mean by being the same than in Gen 1 about Jh1 ;in beginning;?
and you do not express anything on the fact that nothing was created without THE WORD
Pierre
Richard Amiel McGough
05-14-2010, 09:55 AM
hi Richard
what do you mean by being the same than in Gen 1 about Jh1 ;in beginning;?
and you do not express anything on the fact that nothing was created without THE WORD
Pierre
I mean that John 1:1 is an obvious parallel to Genesis 1:1, and so the phrase "In the beginning" has the same meaning in both passages.
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
I'm not sure what needs be said about this. The meaning seems self-evident. Perhaps I need to be prompted by a question.
Thanks!
Richard
terraricca
05-14-2010, 10:24 PM
I mean that John 1:1 is an obvious parallel to Genesis 1:1, and so the phrase "In the beginning" has the same meaning in both passages.
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
I'm not sure what needs be said about this. The meaning seems self-evident. Perhaps I need to be prompted by a question.
Thanks!
Richard
hi Richard
yes you are right the reason why i wen there is ;in Ge 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
so we can see that the creation here is prior to universe.
and so is Jn1;1
this said so Christ (the Word) was first of all creation,and was of God,
i see this just like God created man and then out of man he took the women,
but even doe the women comes out of men she is one separated person a total single individual.
and so it is with God and Christ and all of creation,
God is spirit and powerful be on are wildest imagination
of cause Christ will be our god just as Moses was god to is brother Aaron wen they went to Egypt,
Just like Moses ,Christ his our middle man so to speak.
terraricca
05-17-2010, 07:16 AM
hi Richard
yes you are right the reason why i wen there is ;in Ge 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
so we can see that the creation here is prior to universe.
and so is Jn1;1
this said so Christ (the Word) was first of all creation,and was of God,
i see this just like God created man and then out of man he took the women,
but even doe the women comes out of men she is one separated person a total single individual.
and so it is with God and Christ and all of creation,
God is spirit and powerful be on are wildest imagination
of cause Christ will be our god just as Moses was god to is brother Aaron wen they went to Egypt,
Just like Moses ,Christ his our middle man so to speak.
hi Richard
were is your respond,
Pierre
Richard Amiel McGough
05-17-2010, 12:02 PM
hi Richard
yes you are right the reason why i wen there is ;in Ge 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
so we can see that the creation here is prior to universe.
and so is Jn1;1
this said so Christ (the Word) was first of all creation,and was of God,
i see this just like God created man and then out of man he took the women,
but even doe the women comes out of men she is one separated person a total single individual.
and so it is with God and Christ and all of creation,
God is spirit and powerful be on are wildest imagination
of cause Christ will be our god just as Moses was god to is brother Aaron wen they went to Egypt,
Just like Moses ,Christ his our middle man so to speak.
Hi Pierre,
Sorry for the slow response.
What is your native tongue? I notice you are writing phonetically. For example, you wrote "be on are" for "beyond our" in this sentence "God is spirit and powerful be on are wildest imagination"
I find that very interesting. But also, it makes conversation a bit challenging.
Now I notice that you are sharing your ideas - like your idea that the word had a beginning, and that Christ is our "god" like Moses was a "god" to Aaron. That's fine, but it seems like the conversation is just going to wander around one idea here and one idea there. I would prefer a more systematic approach.
For example, we should be looking at the best and most powerful arguments for our two positions: You show me the best argument against some aspect of the Trinity, and I will show you the best argument for some aspect of the Trinity.
This can be very interesting. For example, one of the strongest arguments for the pre-existence of Christ (a fundamental aspect of the Trinity) is found in John 17:
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
What glory did Christ have with the Father "before the world was" if he did not exist?
On the other had, in a fascinating twist of irony, this same passage yields one of the strongest arguments against the Trinity:
John 17:20 I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 "that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 "And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 "I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
The word "just as" (kathos) means that we are one with God in the same way that Christ is one with God. Obviously, we are not part of a Gazzillionty - a Godhead made up of gazzillions of separate believers.
This is the approach I would like us to take. We each present the best arguments whether they support our case or not. That's how a properly functioning mind really works.
Richard
Hi Pierre,
Sorry for the slow response.
What is your native tongue? I notice you are writing phonetically. For example, you wrote "be on are" for "beyond our" in this sentence "God is spirit and powerful be on are wildest imagination"
I find that very interesting. But also, it makes conversation a bit challenging.
Now I notice that you are sharing your ideas - like your idea that the word had a beginning, and that Christ is our "god" like Moses was a "god" to Aaron. That's fine, but it seems like the conversation is just going to wander around one idea here and one idea there. I would prefer a more systematic approach.
For example, we should be looking at the best and most powerful arguments for our two positions: You show me the best argument against some aspect of the Trinity, and I will show you the best argument for some aspect of the Trinity.
This can be very interesting. For example, one of the strongest arguments for the pre-existence of Christ (a fundamental aspect of the Trinity) is found in John 17:
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
What glory did Christ have with the Father "before the world was" if he did not exist?
On the other had, in a fascinating twist of irony, this same passage yields one of the strongest arguments against the Trinity:
John 17:20 I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 "that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 "And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 "I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
The word "just as" (kathos) means that we are one with God in the same way that Christ is one with God. Obviously, we are not part of a Gazzillionty - a Godhead made up of gazzillions of separate believers.
This is the approach I would like us to take. We each present the best arguments whether they support our case or not. That's how a properly functioning mind really works.
Richard
In reading the text carefully, one does get the idea that what started with the Glory Christ had with the Father before the world was, expands to be given by Christ to all who believe making them one. So in that sense the Glory that was with the Trinity, is now the Trinity plus all believers.
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
John 17: 22 "And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 "I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
Rose
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