Help!!

[The Homemommy]

I have been sharing the view of the Preterist to my family and friends. I've done a pretty good job, I think, on OD, abomination of desolation, antichrist...Thanks to your site. But they keep quoting the OT prophets, especially Ezekiel, Isaiah, the dry bones, the temple in Ezekiel, Jeremiah, etc.

What's the best and easiest way to explain these books and how Jesus fulfilled them? I don't want a lot of detail at this time, seeing how they are just starting to listen to me.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I have been sharing the view of the Preterist to my family and friends. I've done a pretty good job, I think, on OD, abomination of desolation, antichrist...Thanks to your site. But they keep quoting the OT prophets, especially Ezekiel, Isaiah, the dry bones, the temple in Ezekiel, Jeremiah, etc.

What's the best and easiest way to explain these books and how Jesus fulfilled them? I don't want a lot of detail at this time, seeing how they are just starting to listen to me.

Any help is greatly appreciated.
Hi Homemommy!

Good to hear from you again. The easiest way is to show them the truth. :winking0071:

What I mean is this - one of the most popular futurist texts is Ezekiel 36-37 which has the "dry bones" etc. This prophecy was fulfilled in Christ and His Church. For example, consider this passage:

Ezekiel 37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. 25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
Is literal David going to be resurrected and then replace Jesus Christ as our "prince for ever"??? I think not! Who is the "one shepherd"? Literal resurrected David or Jesus Christ? I think the answer is clear. Therefore we know with great certainty that the prophecy of Ezekiel 36-37 contains elements that are not "literal" and that are fulfilled in Christ. This is confirmed in 2 Corinthians:

2 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
Compare this with Ezekiel:

Ezekiel 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall bean everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.
Look at that. The prophecy connects the Tabernacle/Temple with God's promise that " I will be their God, and they shall be my people." We know from many passages of the NT that God's People are the "Temple of God."

So that's where I would start. Show that the prophecies have many elements that must be understood as prophetic of Christ and His Church, and show the NT passages that prove those prophecies were fulfilled.

All the best,

Richard

[TheForgiven]

I have been sharing the view of the Preterist to my family and friends. I've done a pretty good job, I think, on OD, abomination of desolation, antichrist...Thanks to your site. But they keep quoting the OT prophets, especially Ezekiel, Isaiah, the dry bones, the temple in Ezekiel, Jeremiah, etc.

What's the best and easiest way to explain these books and how Jesus fulfilled them? I don't want a lot of detail at this time, seeing how they are just starting to listen to me.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Greetings sister. I appreciate your concern, and I'm very glad that you are sharing the word of God as you have come to accept. Keep up the good work, and don't let rejection get you down. Remember, the Jews (Pharisees, Sadducees, and other Scribes) rejected Jesus as He presented spiritual truths they were not able to understand. Unfortunately, in your case, your family/friends who you are witnessing too will not understand it either. It's not that they are blinded; they were raised into believing what they believe, just as I was (or all Preterist for that matter). None of us were taught Preterism from our youth. And as with all spiritual growth, time and patients is what is required. That's not to say that you will be able change their view, but as long as you're trying, that's all that counts.

I've been debating the Historicist's, and Futurist's for more than 10 years. How many have I ever convinced? Pretty much none. However, some of them have modified their understanding after realizing obvious errors with certain passages.

So, how can I (or we) help you sister? None of us can promise you anything, or give you solid verses to bombard their understanding. But this we can do. Give us a list of passages, and we'll try to show you other passages which speak of the same thing, and show how it was fulfilled.

As for Ezekiel, you will find that to be a very tough challenge. Why? Because Ezekiel's book is nearly 90% percent metaphoric in language, and appears to match solely with the attributes of the Church. For instance, Ezekiel is shown water flowing from the temple up to his knees, and flowing into the black sea, and the surrounding waters. How does this connect with the Church?

Jesus said, "Salvation is of/from the Jews...."

and again,

"Go ye therefore and make disciples of all nations, BAPTIZING them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit...."

and again,

"I till you, the time is coming, and NOW IS, when you shall neither travel to this Mountain (in Jerusalem) or any mountain, to worship God. For God is Spirit and He seeks for those who worship in Spirit, and in Truth...."

The Holy Spirit began its outpouring in Jerusalem, and abounded to all the surrounding nations. The Holy Spirit is the water that Ezekiel saw flowing from the spiritual temple of the Church, which began in Jerusalem, and flowed into the dead sea. The Dead Sea is a figure applied to the Gentile (Foreign Nations) that were made alive by the Holy Spirit. How was this done? Through the preaching of the word.

Finally, with regards to the bones, don't worry about passage. They are interpreting that as the physical resurrection, yet that is not what the context was stating. That was a figure of speech used to explain the dead bones, symbolizing those who were dead in their sins, would be made alive through the death and resurrection of Christ Jesus. Like sinners, we too were dead in our transgressions, when we once walked in lewdness and sinfulness. But God removed our heart of stone, being dead, and replaced with His Spirit, and cleansed us from all unrighteousness. Thus, in Him, our bones were made alive, and our bodies were raised to the newness of life, through baptism into death, through our faith in the working of God who raised Christ Jesus from the dead....(St. Paul). Paul also states, "And just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live/walk a new life...for he who has been set free has been freed from sin, and the sting of sin is death...."

I sort of mixed up a few verses from Paul, but I hope you understand my point.

List all passages they quote, and I'll share my responses to those.

With God's love and peace:

Joe

P.S. Or you can always invite them over to the Bible Wheel. I'm sure brother Richard would love to see them (as would all of us).

[The Homemommy]

Greetings sister. I appreciate your concern, and I'm very glad that you are sharing the word of God as you have come to accept. Keep up the good work, and don't let rejection get you down. Remember, the Jews (Pharisees, Sadducees, and other Scribes) rejected Jesus as He presented spiritual truths they were not able to understand. Unfortunately, in your case, your family/friends who you are witnessing too will not understand it either. It's not that they are blinded; they were raised into believing what they believe, just as I was (or all Preterist for that matter). None of us were taught Preterism from our youth. And as with all spiritual growth, time and patients is what is required. That's not to say that you will be able change their view, but as long as you're trying, that's all that counts.

I've been debating the Historicist's, and Futurist's for more than 10 years. How many have I ever convinced? Pretty much none. However, some of them have modified their understanding after realizing obvious errors with certain passages.

So, how can I (or we) help you sister? None of us can promise you anything, or give you solid verses to bombard their understanding. But this we can do. Give us a list of passages, and we'll try to show you other passages which speak of the same thing, and show how it was fulfilled.

As for Ezekiel, you will find that to be a very tough challenge. Why? Because Ezekiel's book is nearly 90% percent metaphoric in language, and appears to match solely with the attributes of the Church. For instance, Ezekiel is shown water flowing from the temple up to his knees, and flowing into the black sea, and the surrounding waters. How does this connect with the Church?

Jesus said, "Salvation is of/from the Jews...."

and again,

"Go ye therefore and make disciples of all nations, BAPTIZING them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit...."

and again,

"I till you, the time is coming, and NOW IS, when you shall neither travel to this Mountain (in Jerusalem) or any mountain, to worship God. For God is Spirit and He seeks for those who worship in Spirit, and in Truth...."

The Holy Spirit began its outpouring in Jerusalem, and abounded to all the surrounding nations. The Holy Spirit is the water that Ezekiel saw flowing from the spiritual temple of the Church, which began in Jerusalem, and flowed into the dead sea. The Dead Sea is a figure applied to the Gentile (Foreign Nations) that were made alive by the Holy Spirit. How was this done? Through the preaching of the word.

Finally, with regards to the bones, don't worry about passage. They are interpreting that as the physical resurrection, yet that is not what the context was stating. That was a figure of speech used to explain the dead bones, symbolizing those who were dead in their sins, would be made alive through the death and resurrection of Christ Jesus. Like sinners, we too were dead in our transgressions, when we once walked in lewdness and sinfulness. But God removed our heart of stone, being dead, and replaced with His Spirit, and cleansed us from all unrighteousness. Thus, in Him, our bones were made alive, and our bodies were raised to the newness of life, through baptism into death, through our faith in the working of God who raised Christ Jesus from the dead....(St. Paul). Paul also states, "And just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live/walk a new life...for he who has been set free has been freed from sin, and the sting of sin is death...."

I sort of mixed up a few verses from Paul, but I hope you understand my point.

List all passages they quote, and I'll share my responses to those.

With God's love and peace:

Joe

P.S. Or you can always invite them over to the Bible Wheel. I'm sure brother Richard would love to see them (as would all of us).

Thanks, Joe and Richard,

Your words of encouragement are most appreciated. Preterism is a very tough sell for most i have talked with. It's like you are taking something away from them. I was just like them, but I always had questions about the Futurist view. But the people I talk with, for some reason don't. They are stead-fast and not open-minded. Maybe I get it because I am young, (I'll be 29 in January) and have not had a lifetime of one-way of thinking. I don't know, but it is very hard. I understand more how our Fore-fathers felt trying to pave the way for us.

Anyway, I have invited my friends to this site, but for some reason, that is more of a turn-off for them. They say, "You're just getting these loony ideas off the Internet".

I will post their questions as I get them. You have helped on the dry bones of Ezekiel, thanks so much.

Talk to you soon,

Carrie

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Thanks, Joe and Richard,

Your words of encouragement are most appreciated. Preterism is a very tough sell for most i have talked with. It's like you are taking something away from them. I was just like them, but I always had questions about the Futurist view. But the people I talk with, for some reason don't. They are stead-fast and not open-minded. Maybe I get it because I am young, (I'll be 29 in January) and have not had a lifetime of one-way of thinking. I don't know, but it is very hard. I understand more how our Fore-fathers felt trying to pave the way for us.

Anyway, I have invited my friends to this site, but for some reason, that is more of a turn-off for them. They say, "You're just getting these loony ideas off the Internet".

I will post their questions as I get them. You have helped on the dry bones of Ezekiel, thanks so much.

Talk to you soon,

Carrie
Hi Carrie,

I'm glad it helped. I think it would be great if you posted the hardest questions that they have. But I wouldn't expect to change their minds. Most folks just believe what they want (or what they've been taught) and disregard anything that doesn't fit. The truth is only for those who diligently seek it above and beyond everything and anything else - especially their preconceive notions and religious traditions.

Rejecting an argument because "you got that off the internet" indicates a fundamental failure to deal with the evidence. Reasons like that are logically fallacious and so mean less than nothing.

Many blessing,

Richard

[The Homemommy]

Hi Carrie,

I'm glad it helped. I think it would be great if you posted the hardest questions that they have. But I wouldn't expect to change their minds. Most folks just believe what they want (or what they've been taught) and disregard anything that doesn't fit. The truth is only for those who diligently seek it above and beyond everything and anything else - especially their preconceive notions and religious traditions.

Rejecting an argument because "you got that off the internet" indicates a fundamental failure to deal with the evidence. Reasons like that are logically fallacious and so mean less than nothing.

Many blessing,

Richard

Hi,

I have layed out my case, verse by verse, and shown them how the major points are found in other places in the Bible. Like one big puzzle, you just have to find the pieces that fit. Then they just look at me with a blank stare and get mad!
I can't believe it! Most say, "When did the lion and the lamb lie with each other, If we are in New Jerusalem, why is the world so bad? One even said, "Well, if this is it, I want my money back!"

I don't know what to say to them. I asked them, If Jesus came back today, what would He do for you that He hasn't already done? They are stuck on the 1,000 year reign of Christ with the saints. They want him back here. I asked, "O.K, so if Jesus came back today, how would Christians be changed? Meaning, if Jesus is coming back to reign here, then what are the spiritual bodies that Jesus and Paul talked about for? Why would we need to put on incorruptable, celestial bodies to live on Earth? i quoted all the verses in 1 Corianthians 15.

That's as far as I got with them. What else can I say?

This is so hard.

But I do want to say, I can't thank you and the others enough for your site. One year ago, I was just like them. Then a personal experience happened and led me on a quest for truth. With the Holy Spirit, the Bible and this site, I found it. I am forever grateful.

Much Love,
Carrie

P.S. Rose, I finally saved enough for my computer!! It's so nice!! I got a new laptop, I've never had one before. I feel so high-tech!! Thanks for your offer to help. That was so sweet of you.

[TheForgiven]

I can't believe it! Most say, "When did the lion and the lamb lie with each other,

You will find this to be a very classical response by the Futurist's. It's common for them to ask, "When did we SEE?" There's the problem; no faith. Everything to them must be seen in a visible format or they simply will not believe, much like the first century Jews.

This shows weakness on their part because they assume that faith means waiting for something to come so they can see. When in truth, faith means accepting the truths of God, no matter how ridiculous it might sound, even if we don't see it. For instance, the Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah because they said, "Elijah must come first..." Jesus responded to this error by answering the Apostles, "I tell you Elijah did come [to restore all things] and they did to him as they wished...". He was referring to John the Baptist in the form of Elijah the Prophet.

Jeremiah chapter 4 reads:

13 “ Behold, he shall come up like clouds,
And his chariots like a whirlwind.


This was a prophesy by Jeremiah from God foretelling the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple by the Babylonian Empire. But wait a minute! When did we see God coming as the clouds? When did we see His chariots come like the whirlwind? I guess Jeremiah's prophesy wasn't yet fulfilled considering nothing of this sort has happened.

Prophesy is filled with beautiful and poetic language. The problem with most Old Testament (and New Testament) students is their inability to discern between poetry, or symbolic language. Lamentations, Proverbs, and the Songs of Solomon are all filled with poetic and symbolic language. The same with the passage you quoted with regards to the lamb and the lion abiding together. What does this mean? It means that both the bad (sinners) and the good (righteous), to put it quite simply, shall abide on this earth together in peace. Neither would have to fear the other side as the ancients once did. This has absolutely NOTHING to do with a 1000 year reign when literal animals would live together in harmony. Not to mention it's pointless to even expect this to happen; furthermore it serves no purpose.

Papias of the 2nd century was rebuked and questioned for such beliefs. He taught that Christ would return and have a corporal governmental reign on this earth, where Israel would produce fruits by the thousands upon thousands. He taught that this was necessary in order to fulfill His (Christ's) prophesy to drink from the fruit of the vine when He comes in His kingdom. The obvious fallacy to this idea is that this teaching rejects the Church as the Kingdom of Christ. Ask them, and you will find that they view the Church and Jerusalem as two different things; one Gentile and the other Jewish. Yet the New Testament clearly teaches that the Church is the New Jerusalem, which is from above. The Author of Hebrews testifies to this.


If we are in New Jerusalem, why is the world so bad? One even said, "Well, if this is it, I want my money back!"


Tell them to look at the New Jerusalem again. It clearly states that the New Jerusalem is the home of those who abide in righteousness; all others remain outside of the New Jerusalem. Notice also that Revelation never states that the entire global world (geographical) would become the New Jerusalem. Since they are appealing to the pro-literal form of the verse/word, then ask them why the New Jerusalem only spans 1,500 miles tall, wide, and long? Why not the entire world? Ask them also if they expect a literal physical gigantic cube to land upon the surface of the earth. Believing such a thing would mean that it's roof would be roughly 65 miles beyond the earth's atmosphere....what would even be the purpose of having such a high ceiling? :lol:

One must listen with their hearts, and the mind/inspiration of Christ if they are to understand what the Spirit is saying to the Churches. Listening with our eyes only leads to false presumptions and hope.


I don't know what to say to them. I asked them, If Jesus came back today, what would He do for you that He hasn't already done?

THAT my sister is a very good question. In my opinion, this teaching has its roots in Calvinism. This teaching believes that true righteousness can only be achieved when Christ returns to set up a 1000 year kingdom. So based on their view, Jesus cannot make us righteous EXCEPT by His blood for the time being. But when He returns, we will automatically be made righteous because sin will be removed from the earth. What does this mean? It means to them that we sinners are sinners because the essence of sin still abides on this earth; this also presumes a false idea that we sin because the "dark side" made us do it. So Christ will supposedly wave the magic wand, and all sin will not exist, thereby enabling us to live perfect and sinless lives. But what about the post 1000 year reign? Here's where their theories fall apart. They believe that Satan will be released at the end of the 1000 years of perfection (mortal and immortals together). And all those mortals (abiding with the resurrected mortals) will be subjected to sin once again, and somehow enable Satan to amass a very huge army, by the millions upon millions. Thus, all that Christ did during the 1000 years will end up wasted, and the fallen children (mortals) who become slaves of Satan will fight a final battle, much like the Clash of the Titans. THEN (based on their view) comes the new world where sin is once again removed, and the earth is rebuilt (again).

I hate to sound so bold, but much of this belief is simply fairy tales and false presumptions. But we too were like them, so it's not their fault. All it takes is a little studying, prayer, and the willingness to admit that they just might be wrong; that's what I had to do.


They are stuck on the 1,000 year reign of Christ with the saints. They want him back here. I asked, "O.K, so if Jesus came back today, how would Christians be changed?

Sounds very much like the Jews of the first century. Unless Jesus sits upon an earthly throne, they will not accept His heavenly throne; unless they can see Him reigning with a crown of diamonds, then they will not believe He is truly King. They teach that Satan is still the king of this world until he is judged. Yet Jesus Himself clearly states, "ALL AUTHORITY ON HEAVEN AND ON EARTH HAS BEEN GIVEN UNTO ME!"

All authority; not some, part, or most authority, bu ALL Authority!

Keep up the good fight sister, but remember not to force Preterism upon them. The more you do, the more they'll reject. The best thing to do is try to encourage them to come to this forum, and test their swords and knowledge.

God bless, and take care.

Joe

[The Homemommy]

You will find this to be a very classical response by the Futurist's. It's common for them to ask, "When did we SEE?" There's the problem; no faith. Everything to them must be seen in a visible format or they simply will not believe, much like the first century Jews.

This shows weakness on their part because they assume that faith means waiting for something to come so they can see. When in truth, faith means accepting the truths of God, no matter how ridiculous it might sound, even if we don't see it. For instance, the Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah because they said, "Elijah must come first..." Jesus responded to this error by answering the Apostles, "I tell you Elijah did come [to restore all things] and they did to him as they wished...". He was referring to John the Baptist in the form of Elijah the Prophet.

Jeremiah chapter 4 reads:

13 ' Behold, he shall come up like clouds,
And his chariots like a whirlwind.


This was a prophesy by Jeremiah from God foretelling the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple by the Babylonian Empire. But wait a minute! When did we see God coming as the clouds? When did we see His chariots come like the whirlwind? I guess Jeremiah's prophesy wasn't yet fulfilled considering nothing of this sort has happened.

Prophesy is filled with beautiful and poetic language. The problem with most Old Testament (and New Testament) students is their inability to discern between poetry, or symbolic language. Lamentations, Proverbs, and the Songs of Solomon are all filled with poetic and symbolic language. The same with the passage you quoted with regards to the lamb and the lion abiding together. What does this mean? It means that both the bad (sinners) and the good (righteous), to put it quite simply, shall abide on this earth together in peace. Neither would have to fear the other side as the ancients once did. This has absolutely NOTHING to do with a 1000 year reign when literal animals would live together in harmony. Not to mention it's pointless to even expect this to happen; furthermore it serves no purpose.

Papias of the 2nd century was rebuked and questioned for such beliefs. He taught that Christ would return and have a corporal governmental reign on this earth, where Israel would produce fruits by the thousands upon thousands. He taught that this was necessary in order to fulfill His (Christ's) prophesy to drink from the fruit of the vine when He comes in His kingdom. The obvious fallacy to this idea is that this teaching rejects the Church as the Kingdom of Christ. Ask them, and you will find that they view the Church and Jerusalem as two different things; one Gentile and the other Jewish. Yet the New Testament clearly teaches that the Church is the New Jerusalem, which is from above. The Author of Hebrews testifies to this.



Tell them to look at the New Jerusalem again. It clearly states that the New Jerusalem is the home of those who abide in righteousness; all others remain outside of the New Jerusalem. Notice also that Revelation never states that the entire global world (geographical) would become the New Jerusalem. Since they are appealing to the pro-literal form of the verse/word, then ask them why the New Jerusalem only spans 1,500 miles tall, wide, and long? Why not the entire world? Ask them also if they expect a literal physical gigantic cube to land upon the surface of the earth. Believing such a thing would mean that it's roof would be roughly 65 miles beyond the earth's atmosphere....what would even be the purpose of having such a high ceiling? :lol:

One must listen with their hearts, and the mind/inspiration of Christ if they are to understand what the Spirit is saying to the Churches. Listening with our eyes only leads to false presumptions and hope.



THAT my sister is a very good question. In my opinion, this teaching has its roots in Calvinism. This teaching believes that true righteousness can only be achieved when Christ returns to set up a 1000 year kingdom. So based on their view, Jesus cannot make us righteous EXCEPT by His blood for the time being. But when He returns, we will automatically be made righteous because sin will be removed from the earth. What does this mean? It means to them that we sinners are sinners because the essence of sin still abides on this earth; this also presumes a false idea that we sin because the "dark side" made us do it. So Christ will supposedly wave the magic wand, and all sin will not exist, thereby enabling us to live perfect and sinless lives. But what about the post 1000 year reign? Here's where their theories fall apart. They believe that Satan will be released at the end of the 1000 years of perfection (mortal and immortals together). And all those mortals (abiding with the resurrected mortals) will be subjected to sin once again, and somehow enable Satan to amass a very huge army, by the millions upon millions. Thus, all that Christ did during the 1000 years will end up wasted, and the fallen children (mortals) who become slaves of Satan will fight a final battle, much like the Clash of the Titans. THEN (based on their view) comes the new world where sin is once again removed, and the earth is rebuilt (again).

I hate to sound so bold, but much of this belief is simply fairy tales and false presumptions. But we too were like them, so it's not their fault. All it takes is a little studying, prayer, and the willingness to admit that they just might be wrong; that's what I had to do.



Sounds very much like the Jews of the first century. Unless Jesus sits upon an earthly throne, they will not accept His heavenly throne; unless they can see Him reigning with a crown of diamonds, then they will not believe He is truly King. They teach that Satan is still the king of this world until he is judged. Yet Jesus Himself clearly states, "ALL AUTHORITY ON HEAVEN AND ON EARTH HAS BEEN GIVEN UNTO ME!"

All authority; not some, part, or most authority, bu ALL Authority!

Keep up the good fight sister, but remember not to force Preterism upon them. The more you do, the more they'll reject. The best thing to do is try to encourage them to come to this forum, and test their swords and knowledge.

God bless, and take care.

Joe

Joe,

All I can say is, WOW! You sir, have the gift of words. I wish I had your eloquence. You are right about the pushing of Preterism. Just the thought of Jesus returning in the 1st century sends them running. I must tread carefully and slowly. I am continuing to bring up this site to them, hopefully they will come. I can't thank you enough for your words of encouragement, they really help. Sometimes it feels so lonely.

God Bless you, Joe.

Your sister,
Carrie

[The Homemommy]

One more question: How do you get past all the talk over Israel vs Iran? Just flipped the channel to the news and there again, more talk of Iran threatening Israel.

I know first thing in the morning, I will get calls saying"See, it's about to begin!, Bible prophecy unfolding in front of our eyes!"

I am so weary of this. Do people say this to you? What is your reply?

Carrie

[Rose]

Hi,

I have layed out my case, verse by verse, and shown them how the major points are found in other places in the Bible. Like one big puzzle, you just have to find the pieces that fit. Then they just look at me with a blank stare and get mad!
I can't believe it! Most say, "When did the lion and the lamb lie with each other, If we are in New Jerusalem, why is the world so bad? One even said, "Well, if this is it, I want my money back!"

I don't know what to say to them. I asked them, If Jesus came back today, what would He do for you that He hasn't already done? They are stuck on the 1,000 year reign of Christ with the saints. They want him back here. I asked, "O.K, so if Jesus came back today, how would Christians be changed? Meaning, if Jesus is coming back to reign here, then what are the spiritual bodies that Jesus and Paul talked about for? Why would we need to put on incorruptable, celestial bodies to live on Earth? i quoted all the verses in 1 Corianthians 15.

That's as far as I got with them. What else can I say?

This is so hard.

But I do want to say, I can't thank you and the others enough for your site. One year ago, I was just like them. Then a personal experience happened and led me on a quest for truth. With the Holy Spirit, the Bible and this site, I found it. I am forever grateful.

Much Love,
Carrie

P.S. Rose, I finally saved enough for my computer!! It's so nice!! I got a new laptop, I've never had one before. I feel so high-tech!! Thanks for your offer to help. That was so sweet of you.

Hi Carrie

Do not be discouraged, even though your family and friends are not ready to receive the truth yet....what you have shared with them is invaluable and at some point they will realize that. Just as God quickened your heart and led you on a quest for the truth, your words will be like seeds in their lives and awaken at some point.

Sharing the truth of what the Bible is really saying is the single most significant thing you can do. The truth has been hidden under the fantasy stories of Futurism for too long keeping people in darkness, so let your light shine :Investigate:

We are on a mission sister! :highfive:

Many blessing

Rose

[Rose]

One more question: How do you get past all the talk over Israel vs Iran? Just flipped the channel to the news and there again, more talk of Iran threatening Israel.

I know first thing in the morning, I will get calls saying"See, it's about to begin!, Bible prophecy unfolding in front of our eyes!"

I am so weary of this. Do people say this to you? What is your reply?

Carrie

Hi again Carrie

First off what I would do is throw the ball back into their court and ask them to come up with answers as to why after 61 years Israel is no closer to having a rebuilt temple then they were on day one. And remember all the talk about the then Soviet Union coming down from the North and invading Israel, well there is no more Soviet Union (now Russia) and the same is true for every other prophecy...not one single prediction has come true! That's a pretty bad track record, 100% wrong!

The best advice I can give you is do not take the defensive....learn your Bible, and you will be able to answer them in love. Truth always prevails, a house built on lies cannot stand.

Stay strong in the Lord

Rose

[TheForgiven]

Joe,

All I can say is, WOW! You sir, have the gift of words. I wish I had your eloquence.

I thank you for your kindness. I do have my moments in speaking good words. But I believe you'll find more wisdom and presentation from sister Rose. She has a way of speaking things from the heart so that all could understand it. God knows we all lover her here; as well as Richard, if we could get him away from work from time to time. :lol:


You are right about the pushing of Preterism. Just the thought of Jesus returning in the 1st century sends them running.

That's because they are paranoid. They are reacting to certain warnings from St. Paul who rebuked a few false teachers who taught that the resurrection was past; but past from his point of view. The resurrection Paul awaited had not yet happened while the temple was still standing. According to Revelation, and the author of Hebrews, nobody could enter into heaven while the old Temple was still standing; it had to be removed. But before it could be removed, the true temple (Church) had to be built; that is what the Apostles were chosen to do; rebuild the temple of God. When the fullness of the Gentiles was complete, and the fullness of the Jews (biological) was complete, the time of testing and wrath had come; testing of the Saints, and wrath upon His enemies (Apostate Israel) who rejected Him, and teamed up with the Romans to nail Christ to the cross.

I suppose they are afraid they are going to miss out on something. But, like the virgins who had no oil for their lamp, the first century Jews missed the coming of Christ. Having no oil means having no understanding. The lamp is a representation of their assembly (whether wise or unwise virgins). Without the oil of gladness, wisdom, or mind of Christ, one cannot see the presence of Christ in their lives. Thus, because they cannot see, they do not understand, for they are spiritually discerned, as St. Paul puts it.


I must tread carefully and slowly. I am continuing to bring up this site to them, hopefully they will come. I can't thank you enough for your words of encouragement, they really help. Sometimes it feels so lonely.

God Bless you, Joe.

That is all you can do sister. And don't feel lonely; you are very welcomed on this forum. I too know what it feels like to be rejected. My last Church refused to accept Preterism, even though they don't understand that their particular denomination is grounded in Preterism, if not partial preterism. But the minister of my last Church adapted to a mixture of the Historicist view, and the Futurist view; a little bit of both. He acknowledges that the Great Tribulation happened (on time) in the first century, but he also believes another Great Tribulation will happen sometime soon. He also teaches false things such as the Rapture; something that does not even appear anywhere in the Bible.

Keep up the faith, study the word diligently, and learn more about history; particularly the historical settings of the Old Testament Jews/Israel. Study the time period of Greece, Medes/Persians, Babylonians, and the Romans (Ancient Rome). You will be amazed at how the Old Testament comes to life. But most importantly, when you read Old Testament prophesy, don't look at it at face value. Ask yourself, "What is the Spirit trying to say?"

Clues:

1. storms, rough seas, winds, and whirlwinds are symbols of war and destruction.
2. animals are used to describe the good or evil characteristics of human behavior. Goats are often ascribed to gluttons who only think of feeding themselves. Pigs are ascribed to Gentiles (foreigners) outside of Israel, who are also gluttons, unclean, and dirty. Pigs or swine are also noticed as those who love playing in the mud. And mud is a symbol for sin.
3. Sheep represent innocent children.
4. Lambs are innocent animals knowing no evil, and were used for sacrificing.
5. Bulls represent those who sin willfully, or in ignorance. That is why God required them to sacrifice a bull when they committed a sin accidentally. This symbolized that they were ending their rebellion against God.
6. Rams are symbolic of power, especially if they have horns; this was most often attributed to powerful nations such as the Persian Empire.
7. Crawling creatures and creepy things represent all mankind outside of God's kingdom; these usually abide in swamps. Swamps are symbolic of nations/cities/lands without the knowledge of God (in my opinion). Lands flourishing with "milk and honey" represent areas filled with the knowledge of God.
8. Lions are symbolic of kings. Jesus is describes as Lion from the Tribe of Judah.

Now all of these are based on my opinion as I've studied the word. You (or someone else) might have a slightly different interpretation. Just keep in mind that when God uses animals within a Prophesy, He's trying to portray the behavior of a particular people, or nation. So when you read the Old Testament prophets, and animals are mentioned, think about the characteristics of the animal and watch the prophesy come to life.

God bless, and happy reading.

Joe

[TheForgiven]

One more question: How do you get past all the talk over Israel vs Iran? Just flipped the channel to the news and there again, more talk of Iran threatening Israel.

I know first thing in the morning, I will get calls saying"See, it's about to begin!, Bible prophecy unfolding in front of our eyes!"

I am so weary of this. Do people say this to you? What is your reply?

Carrie

I'd say sister Rose answered this best. In conclusion, they are relying on 100% percent fallacious theologies based on the Futurist understanding.

What of Iran or geographical Israel? I don't see them as being applicable to prophesy coming to pass. If they can, I'd love to hear the passages they believe speak of Iran destroying/warring against Israel. I see the circumstances there as God judging two harlot nations. God is God, and Christ is both Judge and Savior. What ever the royal counsel in heaven judges, so shall it be unto all nations.....See? My faith believes that all things taking place on this earth are a direct reflection of the Counsel's decision. Remember, Jesus promised the Apostles and their disciples, "and if I go to prepare a place for you, I will come again to receive you unto myself, THAT WHERE I AM (which is heaven), you may be also..."

The courts (according to Daniel) were opened when Apostate Israel faced judgment in 70AD, as well as Rome. Thus, the courts remain forever, and all nations face judgment when they turn their backs on God. From one new moon to the next, and from one generation to the next, the heavenly government will eternally rule over all the inhabited earth.

Here's what I'd ask them. What prophesy do they feel is coming true before our very eyes with regards to Iran and Israel. Funny because they said the same thing about Saddam of Iraq. Huh oh, but the US took care of that leadership. Now they're pointing the finger at Iran.

They did the very same thing to the Roman Church during the Spanish Inquisition. Seems like anyone, or any nation that acts evil, Futurist, or Dispensationals believe the end of the world is near. If someone catches the flu, they believe prophesy is unfolding before their eyes. :lol:

But between me and you, when they talk like this, just sit back and enjoy the show. :pop2:

Take care sister, and may God bless you through and through in your quest for the truth.

Joe

[CWH]

Hi Carrie,

If you want to embrace preterism, that is your own choice and decision and I have no intention to challenge your decision and choice. My advice is tell you that whether you believe in preterism, futurism, historism, idealism; none are absolutely right. I would rather that people stay on the fence. The word of caution is what if, what if, what if. What if the temple will be rebulit in Jerusalem, what if Jesus really come back again, what if some of the predictions of the futurist do happened? What if preterism or futurism or historism or idealism is wrong? What if some of each eschatology are right and some are wrong?

Therefore if no eschatology is absolutely right, it is "safer" to read the Bible with the past and future in mind, in other words, read the Bible with preterism, historism, futurism, idealism in mind.

Be strong in whatever you believe.:)

Many Blessings to you.

[Rose]

Hi Carrie,

If you want to embrace preterism, that is your own choice and decision and I have no intention to challenge your decision and choice. My advice is tell you that whether you believe in preterism, futurism, historism, idealism; none are absolutely right. I would rather that people stay on the fence. The word of caution is what if, what if, what if. What if the temple will be rebulit in Jerusalem, what if Jesus really come back again, what if some of the predictions of the futurist do happened? What if preterism or futurism or historism or idealism is wrong? What if some of each eschatology are right and some are wrong?

Therefore if no eschatology is absolutely right, it is "safer" to read the Bible with the past and future in mind, in other words, read the Bible with preterism, historism, futurism, idealism in mind.

Be strong in whatever you believe.:)

Many Blessings to you.

Hi Cheow

Usually a person ends up in the Preterist camp because they are truth seekers and are not happy sitting on the fence not knowing which way they may fall. We know that God is Truth which is absolute....there is no IF in absolute Truth. We believe by diligently seeking the Truth of the Bible, He will open our eyes to that truth, and it will form a perfect coherent picture that conforms to His Word.

God Bless

Rose

[Edward Goodie]

I can't believe it! Most say, "When did the lion and the lamb lie with each other,

First of all, they can't even quote Scripture...

Isaiah 11:6 - The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.


If you are willing to take the next ten minutes and study out this passage you will find its fulfillment in Romans 15:12.

The key in Isaiah 11 is verse 10's "in that day" as referring to the time when all those wolves, labmbs, leopards, kids, calves and lions get together and party...

In combination with verse 10's "in that day" is verse 11's "in that day"

These two things happen (paraphrased):

1. The Gentiles will seek the root of Jesse (Jesus)
2. The remnant will be recovered

Now, Paul in the NT, after taking great pains in the previous chapter (Romans 14) to get the Jews and Gentiles to be cool with other, he now offers Scriptural proof for his reasons (Romans 15:9-12). He quotes from Psalm 18:49, Deut. 32:43, Psalm 117:1, and Isaiah 11:10.

There can be no question that the language expressed by Isaiah to represent the unclean coming together with the Jews is fulfilled during the first century and in particular, the ministry of the apostles. See Peter's vision of Acts 10 regarding the unclean Gentiles now coming into the fold.

But it won't matter much to the dispensationalists. They ignore NT illumination on the OT. One of my dispie associates (previously a friend) told me that Paul quoted Isaiah in the future tense because it still was a future event!!!!

That was totally unexpected...how else can one quote a prophet unless he quotes him exactly as said. Of course, the quote was future because Isaiah was referring to the future. Paul quoted him because the future had arrived - FULFILLMENT. But good luck explaining this to them though...

[TheForgiven]

First of all, they can't even quote Scripture...

Isaiah 11:6 - The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.


If you are willing to take the next ten minutes and study out this passage you will find its fulfillment in Romans 15:12.

The key is verse 10's "in that day" as referring to the time when all those wolves, labmbs, leopards, kids, calves and lions get together and party...

In combination with verse 10's "in that day" is verse 11's "in that day"

These two things happen (paraphrased):

1. The Gentiles will seek the root of Jesse (Jesus)
2. The remnant will be recovered

Now, Paul in the NT, after taking great pains in the previous chapter (Romans 14) to get the Jews and Gentiles to be cool with other, he now offers Scriptural proof for his reasons (Romans 15:9-12). He quotes from Ps. 18:49, Deut. 32:43, Ps. 117:1, and Isa. 11:10.

There can be no question that the language expressed by Isaiah to represent the unclean coming together with the Jews is fulfilled during the first century and in particular, the ministry of the apostles. See Peter's vision of Acts 10 regarding the unclean Gentiles now coming into the fold.

But it won't matter much to the dispensationalists. They ignore NT illumination on the OT. One of my dispie associates (previously a friend) told me that Paul quoted Isaiah in the future tense because it still was a future event!!!!

That was totally unexpected...how else can one quote a prophet unless he quotes him exactly as said. Of course, the quote was future because Isaiah was referring to the future. Paul quoted him because the future had arrived - FULFILLMENT. But good luck explaining this to them though...

Greetings Truthseeker 1959! :welcome: I'd like to welcome you to the Biblewheel Forum.

Your post was dead on, and I'm very impressed with your presentation. You were more specific in identifying the application of the animals (lamb, leopard, calf, youngling) are animal attributes describing Jews and Gentiles living in harmony with each other. This, of course, doesn't mean that haters won't exist, as we can see today. God never stated that hate would disappear, but that the Jews and Gentiles would abide in the same world. They would not worship in the same kingdom, or offer a lifetime devotion to God. But at least there wouldn't be a strong desire to battle each other, as they once did in the ancients. As I've stated before, our time is certainly much better than that of the ancients. It seems during the days of the Babylonians, Egyptians, Greeks, Medes/Persians, and the Romans, each day was too difficult to handle, and often brought on an early death, be it by war or by famine. Life was extremely short for the ancients as most hardly lived beyond the age of 40 years, based on the Julian Calendar.

Anyways, it's great to have you on the Biblewheel, and I look forward to more of your contributions.

Joe

[Edward Goodie]

Greetings Truthseeker 1959! :welcome: I'd like to welcome you to the Biblewheel Forum.

Your post was dead on, and I'm very impressed with your presentation. You were more specific in identifying the application of the animals (lamb, leopard, calf, youngling) are animal attributes describing Jews and Gentiles living in harmony with each other. This, of course, doesn't mean that haters won't exist, as we can see today. God never stated that hate would disappear, but that the Jews and Gentiles would abide in the same world. They would not worship in the same kingdom, or offer a lifetime devotion to God. But at least there wouldn't be a strong desire to battle each other, as they once did in the ancients. As I've stated before, our time is certainly much better than that of the ancients. It seems during the days of the Babylonians, Egyptians, Greeks, Medes/Persians, and the Romans, each day was too difficult to handle, and often brought on an early death, be it by war or by famine. Life was extremely short for the ancients as most hardly lived beyond the age of 40 years, based on the Julian Calendar.

Anyways, it's great to have you on the Biblewheel, and I look forward to more of your contributions.

Joe

Hey Joe, just one tiny thing. I red-bolded a portion from your response to me. Is that a typo? It doesn't seem to fit with the previous sentence?

I guess that was my first post...it is very similar to Amos 9:11-12 and Acts 15:16-17. I found those personal studies very rewarding and illuminating! For 20 years I had been fooled into believing that God's animal kingdom had been cursed...

[TheForgiven]

This, of course, doesn't mean that haters won't exist, as we can see today. God never stated that hate would disappear, but that the Jews and Gentiles would abide in the same world. They would not worship in the same kingdom, or offer a lifetime devotion to God. But at least there wouldn't be a strong desire to battle each other, as they once did in the ancients.

Greetings TruthSeeker. This wasn't typed like I wanted. What I was trying to say was the Christians and non-Christians would abide in the same world. Some would be within the spiritual kingdom (Christians), while the others would remain outside the spiritual kingdom. This is the reason why the New Jerusalem in Revelation is only 1,500 miles tall, wide, and long. Everyone outside of the spiritual kingdom (Church) remain outside the Gates.

In short, the bad and the good abide in this world (Jews (Christians) and Gentiles (unsaved).

Hope this clarrified. However, I think your presentation was much more clearer. :thumb:

Joe

[Edward Goodie]

Greetings TruthSeeker. This wasn't typed like I wanted. What I was trying to say was the Christians and non-Christians would abide in the same world. Some would be within the spiritual kingdom (Christians), while the others would remain outside the spiritual kingdom. This is the reason why the New Jerusalem in Revelation is only 1,500 miles tall, wide, and long. Everyone outside of the spiritual kingdom (Church) remain outside the Gates.

In short, the bad and the good abide in this world (Jews (Christians) and Gentiles (unsaved).

Hope this clarrified. However, I think your presentation was much more clearer. :thumb:

Joe

...Isn't it rather obvious that Christians and non-Christians would abide in the same world? Well, at least for us non-universalists :)

I am really trying to sort out how those 4 places (previous post) are related to each other:

New Jerusalem
New heaven and earth
New covenant
New creation

I am thinking (presently) that these represent the new people of God and that it does not include non-Christians...

[Richard Amiel McGough]

...Isn't it rather obvious that Christians and non-Christians would abide in the same world? Well, at least for us non-universalists :)

I am really trying to sort out how those 4 places (previous post) are related to each other:

New Jerusalem
New heaven and earth
New covenant
New creation

I am thinking (presently) that these represent the new people of God and that it does not include non-Christians...
I would identify things this way:

The Body of Christ = The Church = New Jerusalem = New Heavens and Earth = New Creation defined by the New Covenant.

[Rose]

...Isn't it rather obvious that Christians and non-Christians would abide in the same world? Well, at least for us non-universalists :)

I am really trying to sort out how those 4 places (previous post) are related to each other:

New Jerusalem
New heaven and earth
New covenant
New creation

I am thinking (presently) that these represent the new people of God and that it does not include non-Christians...

Hi TruthSeeker

The way I would break it down is to compare the New with the Old.

First there was the Old creation of earthly Jerusalem which abode under the the system of the Old heaven and earth whose laws were laid out in the Old Covenant.

Now there is the New Jerusalem (church) which is the New creation (in Christ) who abide in the order of the New heaven and earth under the umbrella of the New Covenant brought in by Christ.

God Bless

Rose

[Edward Goodie]

Hi TruthSeeker

The way I would break it down is to compare the New with the Old.

First there was the Old creation of earthly Jerusalem which abode under the the system of the Old heaven and earth whose laws were laid out in the Old Covenant.

Now there is the New Jerusalem (church) which is the New creation (in Christ) who abide in the order of the New heaven and earth under the umbrella of the New Covenant brought in by Christ.

God Bless

Rose

...what does your (old) heaven and earth mean? Is it material cosmos? Is it Law? Is it people? Can we move these discussions over to the thread I started specifically for this purpose? Source: New Creation (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1353) I know it was my bad for bringing it up in this thread...I should have just used a pointer...but what do you expect from a full-preterist? Perfection? :) Can you repost what you said here over there? I would appreciate it. I will try to address further...

[Edward Goodie]

I would identify things this way:

The Body of Christ = The Church = New Jerusalem = New Heavens and Earth = New Creation defined by the New Covenant.

Could you repost this over at the New Creation thread (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1353)?

Thanks. I tend to agree with your summation. The feelings on this are quite mixed though...

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Could you repost this over at the New Creation thread (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1353)?

Thanks. I tend to agree with your summation. The feelings on this are quite mixed though...
Folks - let's continue any conversation about the NJ, New Creation, etc, on the thread that TruthSeeker linked to.