Who are God's Children?

[White]

Good Morning Richard,

Shalom toJerusalem and all who are called to carry the cross of Christ.
Soldier, Captain, Chief, whatever - Peace - Shalom to all of GOD'S CHILDREN.

Who are GOD'S CHILDREN? We all are !
WHO ARE THE 12 TRIBES OF ISRAEL ?
Scripture is clear - : the physical Jews today are Judah and Benjamin - the Southern Kingdom
The "10 Lost Tribes" - called Ephraim, House of Joseph, Israel, maybe even called Assyria in Isaiah 19:25 - etc - are scattered around the world, have lost their identity. I'm from the "LOST TRIBES OF ISRAEL" -

I'll tell you why:
Besides the fact that the LORD has given me dreams and visions about Judaism, my Father's Family Crest has a filled in
6 pointed Star of David in it which dates to the 15-1600. In my studies I have come to realize that the roots of Switzerland are actually "Jewish" in the sense that those Jews who were kicked out of Rome in 45AD have settled in the Central Part of Switzerland and speak the direct descendant language from the Romans called - can you guess ? - ROMANSCH - a language that is being kept alive in Switzerland who has actually 3 more languages : Swiss German, French and Italian. I myself am from the first Canton (State) "URI" from my father's side and "Schwyz" (2nd Canton) from my Mother's side - these Cantons together with "Unterwalden" formed Switzerland on 8/1/1291 with Wilhelm Tell as their "ring leader" - he is our National Hero giving us Freedom from the oppressors, mainly Hagsburg; but I grew up in Zurich.


The LORD has given me a SPECIAL LOVE fot the JEWISH PEOPLE as you know; HE even sent me to an Orthodox Synagogue - Kenesseth Israel Congregation - Rabbi Chaim Goldberger - for almost ONE FULL YEAR - participating in all their 22 Feasts, Fasts and FESTIVALS, learning about their FAITH and their TRADITIONS. Of course, I would write to Rabbi Goldberger about Y'SHUA HA-MASHIACH, trying to tie a knot around the "OLD" and the "NEW"... I wanted to "convert" to Judaism but I was not allowed because I would not give up JESUS / Y'SHUA as LORD and SAVIOR. Finally when I felt I had presented enough evidence about GOD'S SON, I asked Rabbi Chaim Goldberger to accept Y'SHUA / JESUS as MESSIAH - Something like this talking about "a light from Heaven" quoting Acts 22:1- 16, quoting as follows:
"On that journey as I drew near to Damascus, about noon a great light great light from the sky suddenly shone around me. I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me,
"Saul, Saul, (also for Rabbi Goldberger) why are you persecuting Me?"
I replied : "Who are thou, LORD?"
And He said to me: "I am Y'SHUA THE NAZAREAN whom you are persecuting."
I quoted the whole 16 verses, right to v 13:
"Saul, Saul (Chaim Goldberger) receive your sight" , accept Y'SHUA as Messiah - Yes I did insert Rabbi's name Chaim into this Scripture - we all know that "Chaim" means life, right?
That was in Oct 1999 - the Jewish New Year started on 9/11 - I repeat 9/11 - in 1999... Amos 9:11 / Psalm 119:119
That is when the door to attend Shabbat Morning Services at Kenesseth Israel Congregation was closed to me, but the LORD was not done. When HE sent me to the Synagogue in September 1998, He said :" THIS IS MY FATHER'S HOUSE"

"Now go back to the CATHOLIC CHURCH" HE said. I'm arguing but HE insisted- if the Synagogue is "THE FATHER'S HOUSE" than the Church must be "THE SON'S HOUSE" - and JESUS says in John 17:11 : "And now I will no longer be in the world, but they are in the world, while I am coming to you, Father, keep them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be ONE just as we are ONE.... v. 15 : "I do not ask that you take them out of the world but that you keep them from the evil one. They do not belong to the world any more than I belong to the world. ... v. 20 "I pray not only for them but also for those who will beliee in me through their word, os that they may ALL BE ONE as you Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. (22) And I have given them the glory you gave Me, so that they may be ONE, AS WE ARE ONE... (read all the way to the end of John 17 - very enlightening.

Coming back to the Catholic Church after a 30 years absence was a soul searcing experience to say the least - I kept questioning HIM, WHY? PLEASE LET ME GO (out of this Church - you know Richard, I'm really an Evangelical at heart - Praise the LORD... - or let's put it this way - BORN and raised Catholic, an Evangelical at heart (fully surrendered), with JEWISH ROOTS (from my Father's side I believe), but HE insisted that I stay, and pray, pray, pray for Peace to Jerusalem and the HOLY LAND, to the JEW first, then the Gentile... Can I then say : No, I'm not going where YOU send me?

I can't - I have to do what the HOLY SPIRIT asks me to do, and you are absolutely correct, it is not always ORTHODOX, but always in tune with the HOLY SPIRIT. How do I know that? Because I ask HIM for "signs and wonders" so that I know without a shadow of a doubt that I'm walking with HIM not every day, but "EVERY SECOND OF THE DAY" - It's really amazing what the LORD can do, when we just submit to HIM and do what HE says:

"My ways are higher than your ways as the Heavens are above the Earth, I never said you could not walk in MY ways... now learn to walk in MY WAYS... (paraphrased from Isaiah 55) So I'm very sorry if my walk with the LORD does not fit into this nice square box - but then GOD left the BOX a long time ago... (my e-mail to you Richard about 9th AV was somewhat a reminder of that ... just trying to shed light on "the Jewish Way of Thinking" which will help all of us to become better soldiers for Christ...)

Now your question :
I already established who the Southern Kingdom is - The Physical Jews in Israel and those who are following Jewish customs around the world - that is JUDAH and BENJAMIN - the two Tribes who worshiped in Jerusalem till the destruction of their first Temple on this very day - 9th AV 587 BC - (some say 586 BC)

The 10 Lost Tribes - the Northern Kingdom - also called Ephraim after the largest tribe - taken into Captivity in 722 BC -
Now many peopole claim to be the "THE LOST TRIBES" - The Catholic Church has never claimed that they are the 10 Lost Tribes or that they are the House of Israel - They claim to be "SPIRITUAL ISRAEL" rather than "PHYSICAL ISRAEL" connected to the 2 Tribes. If I am correct, and the 10 LOST TRIBES reunite with the 2 Southern Tribes (Jews and Catholics/Christians) , the "HOUSE" would be united - Just see what JESUS says in Matthew 12:25 (12/25 for Christmas - its easier to remember that way - connect dates to events and voila - you can memorize scripture - I know Christmas is a pagan holiday...so don't write about that but no Christmas without Hanukkah would be a great thread... )

Matthew 12:25 : But He knew what they were thinking and said to them, "EVERY KINGDOM DIVIDED AGAINST ITSELF WILL BE LAID WASTE, AND NO TOWN OR HOUSE DIVIDED AGAINST ITSELF WILL STAND. (26) And if Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself; how, then will his kingdom stand?" A house divided against itself will NOT stand, thus the HOUSE of ISRAEL (10 Tribes) and the HOUSE OF JUDAH (2 Tribes) need to be united to win this war. When I attended the very FIRST SHABBAT SERVICE at Kenesseth Israel the reading was from EZEKIEL 37:15 - 28 - THE TWO STICKS : "Tus the word of the LORD came to me: Now son of man, take a single stick, and write on it: JUDAH and those Israelites who are associated with him. Then take another stick and write on it: JOSEPH (the stick of Ephraim) and all the House of Israel associated with him. (17) Then join the two sticks together so that they form ONE STICK in your hand. When your countrymen ask you, "Will you not tell us what you mean by all this?" answer them: "Thus says the LORD GOD" I will take the stick of Joseph which is in the hand of Ephraim, and of the tribes of Israel associated with him, and I will join to it the stick of JUDAH, making them a single stick; they shall be one in my hand. The sticks on which you write you shall hold up before them to see. Tell them: "Thus speask the LORD GOD: I will take the Israelites from among the nations to which they have come, and gather them from all sides to bring them back to their land. (22) I WILL MAKE THEM ONE NATION UPON THE LAND, IN THE MOUNTAINS OF ISRAEL, AND THERE SHALL BE ONE PRINCE FOR THEM ALL (Y'SHUA/JESUS). Never again shall they be divided into two kingdoms.... read all the way to the end - v, 28 : Thus the nations shall know that it is I, the LORD, who make Israel holy, when my sancturary shall be set yo among them forever." Thus was the reading on that day 12.26.1998 - my first Sabbath Morning Worship Service - guided by the HOLY SPIRIT - with my House in foreclosure - I had no choice but to follow HIS LEAD - the following week the LORD gave me the money ($8000) to get the house out of foreclosure. Thus HE blessed my obedience up to Oct/ November 1999... see above and below...

It is this soul searching and "obedient" walk with the LORD - most of the time not understanding a thing about the "WHY" but with a fervant desire to PLEASE HIM and to walk with HIM and to talk with HIM - "It is MY will to fulfill your heart's desire, walk with Me, talk with Me, My path will inspire (part of a poem giben to me by the LORD on 5/19/1997) that I have followed the guidance of the HOLY SPIRIT, right back to the CATHOLIC CHURCH...

Since the LORD is NOT letting me out of the CATHOLIC CHURCH - even after all these years (1999-2007) and studying Scripture - especially Matthew 16:16ff - I have to say that I am in the Catholic Church because GOD gathered the 10 LOST TRIBES into the Catholic Church (I know, I'm going to get a firestorm of responsers on that one..) because if you understand the OLD TESTAMENT and have accepted Y'SHUA as LORD and SAVIOR, the rituals and traditions in the Catholic Church very much point to the JEWISH ROOTS - with Passover / Eucharist / Tabernacle / Shavuot / etc. etc. I even celebrated the SEDER / PASSOVER with the 6th Graders at OLL Mound, to give them an understanding of the Eucharist which started with the first PASSOVER.

O yes, guess what? Todays readings in all the Catholic Churches is the parting of the RED SEA and the drowning of all the Egyptians... ISRAEL is free - OUT OF EGYPT ON DRY GROUND WALKED GOD'S PEOPLE.. a poem I wrote in August 1997 - inspired by the HOLY SPIRIT - That's what I mean wjhen I say "walking every second with the LORD / HOLY SPIRIT" - and the Gospel reading was about "The True Family of Jesus :"Matthew 13:47 : "Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, asking to speak with you. " But Jesus said in reply : "Who is my mother? Who are my brothers? And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers, For whoever does the WILL OF MY HEAVENLY FATHER IS MY BROTHER, AND SISTER, AND MOTHER". May we then be more concerned to do the WILL OF OUR HEAVENLY FATHER, then following the "orthodox" way of our own thinking.

Now who are the 10 LOST TRIBES - I see that Stephen is working up an answer on that. For me in the meantime I can only state again that Ephraim / Joseph is the Catholic Church and Christians, but mainly those who have a LOVE FOR THE JEWISH PEOPLE, who pray for Peace to Jerusalem daily, who go out of their way to learn about Judaism - after all Once a Jew, always a Jew or so the Rabbis say, unless you accept Y'shua as Messiah ... - much contradiction, confusion and controversy... In Genesis 49 the blessings are given to Ephraim / Joseph ... but JUDAH has the staff in between his feet... more later - Shalom

Shalom to Jerusalem and the Holy Land on this Fast Day - 9th of Av
Shalom to all who follow the guidance of the HOLY SPIRIT
May the LORD bless all and open our eyes to HIS TRUTH
Amen
White

This is all I can do right now - Ridhard - I do have a fulltime job and am limited timewise - so I had not time to list all the scriptures - but I will follow up with more prove. Is that better ? Are we having a dialogue?
Your Sister in Christ, forever and ever
and hanging on to HIM with all my heart, mind, body, soul
Amen
White

[joel]

White, thanks for putting your thoughts into your last thread. It helped me see a portion of your spiritual walk and appreciate some of your journey with the Lord.

It also supports the observation that we have a very diverse group of believers who are having fellowship on and through this forum.

Your input has helped me in a special way..........I, too, have been placed on a spiritual journey and it is not necessarily on the same path as others. That makes for a certain experience of "isolation". But, that's o.k. We are called into the fellowship of "His" sufferings.

What is a blessing to me, and to others, is Richard's willingness not to give up on a person when he is confronted with a belief that is not consistent with his.

We can certainly all agree that there is not one of us who has the fullness of the truth at this time..........but, thanks be unto Him Who loves us, and gave Himself for us.......He is moving us in a direction that He knows exactly where we're going.

As we listen to each other, and interact, there comes forth a blessing.

I am thankful for you, and for the others who have found their way here.

Joel

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Good morning Richard,
Good morning my friend! I trust your day is going well. :)

Before answering your post, I would like to say THANK YOU VERY MUCH for talking directly to me and answering my questions. It feels like we are finally having a conversation. It is very much appreciated.



Who are GOD'S CHILDREN? We all are !
Who do you mean by "we"? Are you talking about all people, or all Christians?

There is one passage in the Bible where all people are called the "offspring of God":


Acts 17:29-30 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
But on the other hand, the Bible explicitly declares that unbelieving Israel are NOT the children of God:


Romans 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
So you answer needs clarification, if you would be so kind.


wHO ARE THE 12 TRIBES OF ISRAEL ?
Scripture is clear - : the physical Jews are Judah and Benjamin - the Southern Kingdom
Correct, that is one of the meanings of the term "Jew" in the Bible. But it is not the only meaning of that term. Paul used the term "Jew" as synonymous with the "circumcision" which was marked all the 12 Tribes.


The 10 Lost Tribes - called Ephraim, House of Joseph, Israel, maybe even called Assyria in Isaiah 19:25 - etx - are scattered around the world, have lost their identity. I'm from the "LOST TRIBES OF ISRAEL" - I'll tell you why:
The LORD has given me a SPECIAL LOVE fot the JEWISH PEOPLE as you know; HE even sent me to an Orthodox Synagogue - Kenesseth Israel Congregation - Rabbi Chaim Goldberger - for almost ONE FULL YEAR - participating in all their 22 Feasts, Fasts and FESTIVALS, learning about their FAITH and their TRADITIONS. Of course, I would write to Rabbi Goldberger about Y'SHUA HA-MASHIACH, trying to tie a knot around the "OLD" and the "NEW"... Finally when I felt I had presented enough evidence, I asked Rabbi Chaim Goldberger to accept Y'SHUA / JESUS as MESSIAH - Something like this:
Saul, Saul, (also for Rabbi Goldberger) why are you persecuting Me?
Who are thou LORD?
I am Y'SHUA OF NAZARETH...
Saul, Saul (Chaim Goldberger) receive your sight, accept Y'SHUA as Messiah -
That was in Oct 1999 - the Jewish New Year started on 9/11 in 1999...
That is when the door to attend Shabbat Morning Services at Kenesseth Israel Congregation was closed to me, but the LORD was not done:
"Now go back to the CATHOLIC CHURCH" HE said. I'm arguing but HE insisted.
Coming back to the Catholic Church after a 30 years absence was a soul searcing experience to say the least - I kept questioning HIM, WHY? PLEASE LET ME GO (out of this Church - you know Richard, I'm really an Evangelical at heart - Praise the LORD...), but HE insisted that I stay, and pray, pray, pray for Peace to Jerusalem and the HOLY LAND. Can I then say : No, I'm not going where YOU send me?
I'm confused. You started the paragraph with the statement "I'm from the "LOST TRIBES OF ISRAEL" - I'll tell you why:" but then I didn't see anything about how you came to "know" that you are from the "Lost Tribes". I would be very interested to know what convinced you that you are physically a daughter of Abraham. Or are you saying that loving the Jews is sufficient proof of your physical ancestry?


I can't - I have to do what the HOLY SPIRIT asks me to do, and you are absolutely correct, it is not always ORTHODOX, but always in tune with the HOLY SPIRIT. How do I know that? Because I ask HIM for "signs and wonders" so that I know without a shadow of a doubt that I'm walking with HIM not every day, but "EVERY SECOND OF THE DAY" - It's really amazing what the LORD can do, when we just submit to HIM and do what HE says:
"My ways are higher than your ways as the Heavens are above the Earth, I never said you could not walk in MY ways... no learn to walk in MY WAYS... (paraphrased from Isaiah 55) So I'm very sorry if my walk with the LORD does not fit into this nice square box - but then GOD left the BOX a long time ago... (my e-mail to you about 9th AV was somewhat a reminder of that ...)
I agree completely that it is amazing what God can do. But I also know that we are not to follow "signs and wonders" in our efforts to understand the Bible or to determine theological truth. And that's the real issue here. What does God's Word say? Not "look at those signs and wonders that confirm doctrine XYZ!" The simple fact is that "signs and wonders" are not hermeneutical tools.

As for your "walk outside the box." I have never, let me repeat never, let me repeat never, said a word about your personal walk with God. That's none of my business and I am not even slightly interested in judging your walk with God. How many times do I need to repeat this? The conversation is about what God teaches in the Bible, not about how well White walks with God. I think this is why you seemed so upset when I challenged your beliefs about the Sabbath and all that. You seem to think any disagreement with your doctrines is a judgment of you and your walk with God. Nothing could be further from the truth. I am NOT judging you. I am simply disagreeing with some of your statements about what the Bible teaches, and how we are supposed to interpret it. And that's what a true friend would do if he thought you were in error. I expect nothing less from my you or my other friends!


Proverbs 27:6 Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.
Our job is to help each other understand God's Truth as revealed in God's Word. From what you've written, it seems like you believe that your "unorthodox interpretations" of the Bible are actually inspired by God and so CAN NOT be wrong because you walk with God "EVERY SECOND OF THE DAY."

I believe it is a grave error - emotionally, intellectually, socially, and spiritually - to tell people that you are right "because you walk with God EVERY SECOND OF EVERY DAY." And besides that, such a assertion is extremely ironic because it contains within itself proof of its own falsehood. If there is one experience that every Christian has as they mature in their walk with God, it is a profound understanding of how wrong they have been, and continue to be, about so many things - and that's why I repeat myself over and over, telling people that I do NOT have all the answers, and that I am wrong about many things, and that they should never look to any man or woman for answers, but test everything by how it stands in relation to God's Word. "Signs and wonders" are extremely deceptive. Jesus Himself said that "An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign" (Matthew 12:39) I find it fascinating that I am currently having a very similar conversation with Geoffrey about how the false teachings of William Branham "must be true" because of the "signs and wonders" that he manifested.


Now your question :
I already established who the Southern Kingdom is - The Physical Jews in Israel and those who are following Jewish customs around the world - that is JUDAH and BENJAMIN
The 10 Lost Tribes:
Since the LORD is NOT letting me out of the CATHOLIC CHURCH - even after all these years (1999-2007) and studying scripture - especially Matthew 16:16ff - I have to say that I am in the Catholic Church because GOD gathered the 10 LOST TRIBES into the Catholic Church (I know, I'm going to get a firestorm of responsers on that one..) because if you understand the OLD TESTAMENT and have accepted Y'SHUA as LORD and SAVIOR, the rituals and traditions in the Catholic Church very much point to the JEWISH ROOTS - with Passover / Eucharist / Tabernacle / Shavuot / etc. etc. I even celebrated the SEDER / PASSOVER with the 6th Graders at OLL Mound, to give them an understanding of the Eucharist which started with the first PASSOVER.
I agree that Catholics are a lot like Jews in their rituals. I suspect it might even have something to do with Peter and the "gospel to the circumcision." But contrary to your anticipated "firestorm," I don't have anything to say about you attending a Catholic church. But I do have very much to say about how you arrive at your conclusions about reality. You said:


Since the LORD is NOT letting me out of the CATHOLIC CHURCH ... I have to say that I am in the Catholic Church because GOD gathered the 10 LOST TRIBES into the Catholic Church.

Your statement is what the Bible talked about when it said "no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation." (2 Peter 1:20) Your interpretation is entirely personal, private, and idiosyncratic. Not a word of it is founded on the Bible.

So let me get this straight. Are you telling everyone that they are supposed supposed to believe that the Catholics are the 10 Tribes because you have discerned through "signs and wonders" that God "is not letting you out of the Catholic Church?"


This is all I can do right now - Ridhard - I do have a fulltime job and am limited timewise - so I had not time to list all the scriptures - but I will follow up with more prove. Is that better ? Are we having a dialogue?
Your Sister in Christ, forever and ever
and hanging on to HIM with all my heart, mind, body, soul
Amen
White
Thank you very much my friend for talking directly to me. Yes, we are having a dialogue, and I find it very helpful, and very pleasant.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

White, thanks for putting your thoughts into your last thread. It helped me see a portion of your spiritual walk and appreciate some of your journey with the Lord.

It also supports the observation that we have a very diverse group of believers who are having fellowship on and through this forum.

Your input has helped me in a special way..........I, too, have been placed on a spiritual journey and it is not necessarily on the same path as others. That makes for a certain experience of "isolation". But, that's o.k. We are called into the fellowship of "His" sufferings.

What is a blessing to me, and to others, is Richard's willingness not to give up on a person when he is confronted with a belief that is not consistent with his.

We can certainly all agree that there is not one of us who has the fullness of the truth at this time..........but, thanks be unto Him Who loves us, and gave Himself for us.......He is moving us in a direction that He knows exactly where we're going.

As we listen to each other, and interact, there comes forth a blessing.

I am thankful for you, and for the others who have found their way here.

Joel
Thanks Joel. Its really hard sometimes to be clear that I DON'T have all the answers because I can be rather forceful with my opinions. And most people can be easily offended even if no offence was intended, and I can imagine White may be feeling isolated, like she was being ganged up on, so your words of solidarity with her are really helpful. We all need a friend, and you have helped stand in the breach here.

Thanks again!

Richard

[White]

Hey Richard and Joel,

Thank you both - brothers in Christ!
"I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE, NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER BUT THROUGH ME" JOHN 14:6

First of all I must apologize - I get carried away and make generalizations which I don't mean and which you point out immediately ! All are God's children but not all are Children of God - Please forgive me for my over simplification of the matter.

But may we never forget that God so loved the world that HE gave His only begotten Son - Jesus Christ - that whosoever believes in HIM shall not perish but have eternal life - John 3:16

For those of you who are number buffs : 3:16 read from right to left gives us 613 Mitzvots = Commandments of God according to Rabbinic Judaism. Having our Jewish Brethren always on my mind and in my heart, I read todays Haftorah reading during my weekly Tuesday evening dedicated prayer hour : Jeremiah 8:13-9:23 - wailing and lament which befits this day of mourning for the destruction of the Temple - The Pentateuch's explanation is as follows: "Jeremiah's gloomiest prophecies of doom, completely unrelieved by words of comfort or promise. Invasion, siege and famine, defeat, devastation and exile, death and lament are his themes, together with a scathing denunciation of that breakdown in the moral life of the nation which for him was a complete explanation of its political eclipse. Jeremiah lived to see the destruction of Judea and Jerusalem which he had so clearly foreseen; and it is as fitting that his book should be chosen to provide the prophetic reading for the Ninth of Ab (9th Av) - for instance verse 15 : We looked for peace, but no good came; and for a time of healing and behold terror! or vese 19: Behold the voice of the cry of the daughter of my people from a land far off; "Is not the LORD in ZION? Is not her King in her? Why have they provoked Me with their graven images, and with strange vanitites? (20) The harvest is past, the Summer is ended, and we are not saved; (21) For the hurt of the daughter of my people am I seized with anguish; I am black, appalment has taken hold of me. (22) Is there no balm in Gilead? Is there no physician there? Why then is not the health of the daughter of my people recovered?" Lamentations, lamentations... But the conclusion is in verse 22-23 because knowledge of GOD is needed above all. Listen: 9:22-23 Thus says the LORD ; let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches; but let him that glories, glory in this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the LORD who exercise mercy, justice and righteousness, in the earth; for in these things I delight, says the LORD.
Then the afternoon Haftorah reading is Isaiah 55:6-56:8 - - I did not know that this was part of the reading when I quoted Isaiah 55 above but paraphrased. Here is the real deal:
55:8 : "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, says the LORD, (9) For as the Heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts. For as the rain comes down from heaven and returns not except it waters the earth and make it bring forth and bud and give seed to the sower and bread to the eater; so shall My word be that goeth forth out of My mouth; It shall NOT return unto Me void, except it accomplish that which I please, and make the thing whereto I sent it prosper..."

Praise the LORD for HIS WORD and for HIS faithfulness even as we - HIS PEOPLE - are unfaithful even every second of the day. Although we try, we fail, me included, because He - Y'SHUA / JESUS - is God and I'm not, but let us never give up but always look up, to fulfill all that He asks of us, even this very day, this very hour. May the ungodly perish and the righteous flourish in the days to come. May we all agree on this, Richard and Joel and Friends.

Ironically I quoted Isaiah 56:1-6 in an earlier post (Shechem or Sabbath posts, I believe) but that is also part of todays Haftorah reading in all the Synagogues "I will give them an everlasting memorial that shall not be cut off." Them being those who "attach" themselves and become proselytes. Here is the explanation in the Pentateuch: verse 3-8 : "joined himself to the LORD" . Explanation : Became a proselyte and observed the Commandments enjoined upon them. The last verses in the Haftorah reading on 9th Av - afternoon is verse 7: "Even them will I bring to My holy mountain, and make them joyful in My house of prayer... for My house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples, (8) says the LORD who gathers the dispersed of Israel; yet will I gather others to him, beside those of him that are gathered." (An allusion to Gentiles who will offer themselves as proselytes.) Wonderful uplifting Message from the LORD. Now I don't feel like such an odd duck - It's written in His word..

That is how the LORD surprises me - I quote or write something - and then it is part of the reading of the day or I hear that exact verse I just read on the Radio etc. or like here the most important readings on this day - 9th Av - I just wrote about them or like the Isaiah 56 passage about the Sabbath about a week ago. I just took my Pentateuch to my prayer time with the LORD in the evening, and that's when the LORD surprised me. HE makes me so happy! God always has ways to confirm our walk because after all, the Soldiers need to follow the orders from the Commander in Chief. Amen!

May the Prayer Shield be spread over Jerusalem and the Holy Land and over all of us who are earnestly seeking His Truth. Amen.

Shalom!
White

PS: Richard, to answer your question how do I know that I'm a daughter of the seed of Abraham ? While you were typing your response yesterday, I added clarification - especially about my upbringing and the Star of David in my Family Crest - however, again, without God's visions and dreams (I would ask the LORD to help me understand HIM by giving me dreams and visions - He did but only as long as I needed it ) I would never have understood what He wanted me to do. As you notice in my Testimony "The Spirit and the Bride" parts of which I sent you in January 2007, I always wanted to follow the prompting of the Holy Spirit, rather than my own and I would always pray about matters rather than follow my flesh. When I attended Synagogue I would always prays : "Lord, remove the mountains, straighten out my path" before I entered, because I was really scared to go to an Orthodox Synagogue, but the LORD sent me there as a messanger of Love. GOD IS LOVE is the first poem I have ever written - you know - you helped with my website www.watchandpray.com - And because GOD is LOVE He wants all His Children to repent and return to HIM. May all our experiences and testimonies help each other and those who are truly seeking to connect to the GOD OF ISRAEL to bring forth the Israel of God as the LORD has envisioned it from the beginning of time. When I looked over the other posts there is much discussion about the 12 Tribes and who they are, thus I'm not going into any further details on that. Sometimes a woman's intuition "knows" but cannot explain - that's the difference between man and woman - or between me and you - but I'll think on your other questions and come back to it later, if you allow me to do that. "Let there be light"... God's first spoken words - who is that LIGHT? Is it "He is the Light of the world" - but let's repeat : "Let there be light!"

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hey Richard and Joel,

Thank you both - brothers in Christ!
"I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE, NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER BUT THROUGH ME" JOHN 14:6
Hello my friend and sister in the Lord!

It is good to be chatting again. I'm glad we broke through that more "argumentative" stage. But things like that always happen on an internet forum (and elsewhere!), and thanks be to God that they can be used by Him to deepen a friendship by breaking through the superficial social barriers.


First of all I must apologize - I get carried away and make generalizations which I don't mean and which you point out immediately ! All are God's children but not all are Children of God - Please forgive me for my over simplification of the matter.
Apology accepted! We all do things like that some times.


But may we never forget that God so loved the world that HE gave His only begotten Son - Jesus Christ - that whosoever believes in HIM shall not perish but have eternal life - John 3:16
Amen! :pray: Let us never forget the essence of the Gospel.


For those of you who are number buffs : 3:16 read from right to left gives us 613 Mitzvots = Commandments of God according to Rabbinic Judaism.
That is something that has always intrigued me. I remember well when I learned the Rabbis teach there are 613 commandments IN THE TORAH, and then discovered that the phrase IN THE TORAH = 613! This word is found in many places in the Bible, such as Nehemiah 8:14 (http://www.biblewheel.com/Gr/GR_Database.asp?bnum=16&cnum=8&vnum=14&getverse=Go):


And they found written in the law (B'Torah) which the LORD had commanded by Moses, that the children of Israel should dwell in booths in the feast of the seventh month:We have the identity:

בתורה (B'Torah, In the Torah) = 2 + 400 + 6 + 200 + 5 = 613

This really impressed me, and convinced me that the Jewish traditions were fundamentally integrated with Gematria. It seemed that even skeptics would have to agree, since the numerical correlations were just too obviousl But to the skeptic, it would mean nothing except that the Jews designed their traditions to "fit" the Gematria. But then I discovered that the fundamental biblical description of the Jews as the "Circumcision" in the Greek New Testament also summed to 613!


Romans 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
The exact word written in the Greek text, peritome', sums to 613.

περιτομη= 80 + 5 + 100 + 10 + 300 + 70 + 40 + 8 = 613

This can be verified by looking at the last word of Rom 2:28 (http://www.biblewheel.com/Gr/GR_Database.asp?bnum=45&cnum=2&vnum=28&getverse=Go) in my online Gematria Database. Thus, the numerical value of the word used in the Greek NT to identify the Jews coincides exactly with the number they have used for millennia to identify the number of commandments they must follow. It is a truly astounding "coincidence" to see the quintessential "Jewish number" as the value of the fundamental New Testament word that describes them.

But while we are talking about the circumcision and the Jews, let us remember that the Bible explicitly declares that there is "no Jew or Gentile" in Christ, and that the faithful Jews who lived at the time of Christ became Christians. Indeed, that is where the whole Christian Church came from. Paul stated this explicitly:

Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Having our Jewish Brethren always on my mind and in my heart, I read todays Haftorah reading during my weekly Tuesday evening dedicated prayer hour :
It seems clear the Lord has given you a burden for the Jews. I pray your mission to them is successful, and that they come to a full realization and repentance to receive the Truth that is in Jesus Christ.


Jeremiah 8:13-9:23 - wailing and lament which befits this day of mourning for the destruction of the Temple - The Pentateuch's explanation is as follows: "Jeremiah's gloomiest prophecies of doom, completely unrelieved by words of comfort or promise. ...
Yep. that's why Jeremiah is known as the "weeping prophet."


GOD is needed above all. Listen: 9:22-23 Thus says the LORD ; let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches; but let him that glories, glory in this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the LORD who exercise mercy, justice and righteousness, in the earth; for in these things I delight, says the LORD.
As an aside, do you see the repetitive use of the word "in"? That is a translation of the Bet prefix (http://www.biblewheel.com/Wheel/Spokes/Bet_Trust.asp). Jeremiah is on Spoke 2 (Bet). Now read 1 Corinthians, also on Spoke 2:


1 Corinthians 1:26-31 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. I talk about this amazing Spoke 2 link, which also is linked to the Alphabetic Verses, on page 139 of the Bible Wheel book, reproduced online here (http://www.biblewheel.com/Wheel/Spokes/Beyt_Glory.asp).


Praise the LORD for HIS WORD and for HIS faithfulness even as we - HIS PEOPLE - are unfaithful even every second of the day. Although we try, we fail, me included, because He - Y'SHUA / JESUS - is God and I'm not, but let us never give up but always look up, to fulfill all that He asks of us, even this very day, this very hour. May the ungodly perish and the righteous flourish in the days to come. May we all agree on this, Richard and Joel and Friends.
Amen! Agreed. But I hope you are not using the word "unfaithful" in the same sense as when I said the unbelieving Jews are not "the people of God." There is a big difference between falling short even though you believe in Christ and not believing in Christ at all! we need to be clear on this point. Nobody - Jew or Gentile - can be called "God's People" if they reject Jesus Christ. Agreed?


That is how the LORD surprises me - I quote or write something - and then it is part of the reading of the day or I hear that exact verse I just read on the Radio etc. or like here the most important readings on this day - 9th Av - I just wrote about them or like the Isaiah 56 passage about the Sabbath about a week ago. I just took my Pentateuch to my prayer time with the LORD in the evening, and that's when the LORD surprised me. HE makes me so happy! God always has ways to confirm our walk because after all, the Soldiers need to follow the orders from the Commander in Chief. Amen!
That's great! That kind of thing happens to me all the time too. It really gives a sparkle and a "life" to our daily walk, doesn't it? It makes me feel like God is interacting with me at all times. Very cool.


PS: Richard, to answer your question how do I know that I'm a daughter of the seed of Abraham ? While you were typing your response yesterday, I added clarification - especially about my upbringing and the Star of David in my Family Crest - however, again, without God's visions and dreams (I would ask the LORD to help me understand HIM by giving me dreams and visions - He did but only as long as I needed it ) I would never have understood what He wanted me to do. As you notice in my Testimony "The Spirit and the Bride" parts of which I sent you in January 2007, I always wanted to follow the prompting of the Holy Spirit, rather than my own and I would always pray about matters rather than follow my flesh. When I attended Synagogue I would always prays : "Lord, remove the mountains, straighten out my path" before I entered, because I was really scared to go to an Orthodox Synagogue, but the LORD sent me there as a messanger of Love. GOD IS LOVE is the first poem I have ever written - you know - you helped with my website www.watchandpray.com (http://www.watchandpray.com) - And because GOD is LOVE He wants all His Children to repent and return to HIM. May all our experiences and testimonies help each other and those who are truly seeking to connect to the GOD OF ISRAEL to bring forth the Israel of God as the LORD has envisioned it from the beginning of time. When I looked over the other posts there is much discussion about the 12 Tribes and who they are, thus I'm not going into any further details on that. Sometimes a woman's intuition "knows" but cannot explain - that's the difference between man and woman - or between me and you - but I'll think on your other questions and come back to it later, if you allow me to do that. "Let there be light"... God's first spoken words - who is that LIGHT? Is it "He is the Light of the world" - but let's repeat : "Let there be light!"
I understand that you have a strong intuition that your ancestral line goes back to Abraham. That's fine. I thought something similar when I first began learning Hebrew and it came to my so easily, and I loved the Jews, and even thought I might move to Israel. And for all I know, I may have Jewish blood in me, but I don't have any real proof either way. But none of that relates to the comments I made. My comments were concerned with how we determine biblical truth. All I meant was that we can't use our own private experiences to prove anything in the Bible. Sure, God may quicken you understand and give you insight through your private experience, but if the insight is true, then it must be proven entirely from Scripture and Scripture alone.

And by the way, I think you summed things up very well when you said: "And because GOD is LOVE He wants all His Children to repent and return to HIM." Amen indeed!

Good chatting, my friend.

Richard

[joel]

White, you said;

"Praise the LORD for HIS WORD and for HIS faithfulness even as we - HIS PEOPLE - are unfaithful even every second of the day. Although we try, we fail, me included, because He - Y'SHUA / JESUS - is God and I'm not, but let us never give up but always look up, to fulfill all that He asks of us, even this very day, this very hour. May the ungodly perish and the righteous flourish in the days to come. May we all agree on this, Richard and Joel and Friends."
--------------------------------------------------

"I have never seen the righteous forsaken, nor His seed begging for bread."....
I remember that from a song of long ago......Blessings to you.....

Joel

[White]

Quote:
But may we never forget that God so loved the world that HE gave His only begotten Son - Jesus Christ - that whosoever believes in HIM shall not perish but have eternal life - John 3:16

Amen! Let us never forget the essence of the Gospel.


Quote:
Originally Posted by White
For those of you who are number buffs : 3:16 read from right to left gives us 613 Mitzvots = Commandments of God according to Rabbinic Judaism.

That is something that has always intrigued me. I remember well when I learned the Rabbis teach there are 613 commandments IN THE TORAH, and then discovered that the phrase IN THE TORAH = 613! This word is found in many places in the Bible, such as Nehemiah 8:14:


Quote:
And they found written in the law (B'Torah) which the LORD had commanded by Moses, that the children of Israel should dwell in booths in the feast of the seventh month:

We have the identity:

בתורה (B'Torah, In the Torah) = 2 + 400 + 6 + 200 + 5 = 613

This really impressed me, and convinced me that the Jewish traditions were fundamentally integrated with Gematria. It seemed that even skeptics would have to agree, since the numerical correlations were just too obviousl But to the skeptic, it would mean nothing except that the Jews designed their traditions to "fit" the Gematria. But then I discovered that the fundamental biblical description of the Jews as the "Circumcision" in the Greek New Testament also summed to 613!

Here is another 613 :
GENESIS 6:13 "he said to Noah: "I have decided to put an end to all mortals on earth; the earth is full of lawlessness because of them. So I will destroy them and all life on earth" 1st book

Matthew 6:13 : ...and do not subject us to the final test, but deliver us from the evil one 1st book

And my Church had their very first Mass on 6/13 = June 13, 1909!
Yep. God is good!
And the roof is a sixpointed Star of David and the Floor Tile is the inside of the Star of David -
One day in prayer a while ago as I was depressed over a fight I had with my teenage daughter, I was looking down and the LORD whispered to me : "What do you see? "
I answered grumpily: " The floor"
So HE said again : "What do you see?"
Now I had to pay attention as I was staring at the floor, concentrating on the one tile in the center, I saw a flower - 1 surrounded by six = 7 = a flower - So I said: "I see a flower" and HE said: "That's what I see!"
My depression flew away like a cloud - and I started to give the tile peoples names, who I was praying for - GOD looks at them as a flower because HE sees the future which is beautiful and we see the present which is depressing at times.

Jeremiah 1:11 : "The word of the LORD came to me with the question: "WHAT DO YOU SEE, JEREMIAH?
"I see a branch of the watching tree", I replied. Then the LORD said to me: "Well, have you seen, for I am watching to fulfill my word."
(13) A second time the word of the LORD came to me with the question:
"What do you see?" "I see a boiling cauldron, "I replied, "that appears from the north". .... bad news... here is the good news:
verse 18-19: "For it is I this day who have made you a fortified city, a pillar of iron, a wall of brass against the whole land: Against Judah's kings and princes , against its priests and people. (19) They will fight against you, but not prevail over you, for I am with you to deliver you," says the LORD.

I'll rest on this one for tonight - May the LORD watch over HIS CHILDREN and bring them out of the wilderness into the PROMISED LAND, that is a LAND flowing with Milk and Honey, and may He make a NEW COVENANT with HIS PEOPLE, not like the COVENANT OF OLD which they broke, but a NEW COVENANT with the HOUSE of ISRAEL and the HOUSE OF JACOB.... as written in Jeremiah 31:6 (to stay with the number 613/316): "Yes a day will come when the watchmen will call out on Mount Ephraim: "Rise up, let us go to Zion, to the LORD, our GOD." and Isaiah 61:3 : To place on those who mourn in Zion a diadem instead of ashes, to give them oil of gladness in place of mourning, a glorious mantle instead of a listless spirit. They will be called oaks of justice, planted by the LORD to show His glory."

Richard, pray for me as I am a laypresider tomorrow morning - 8 am - at OLL
EXODUS 20:1-17 the giving of the 10 Commandments and Matthew 13 - the 30-60-100 fold return/harvest...
And just as a coincidence the Torah for this Sabbath is Deuteronomy 3: 13 to 7:11 also including the second set of 10 Commandments and the Shema ... 10 + 10 = JOHN 10:10 A thief comes only to steal and slaughter and destroy; I CAME SO THAT THEY MIGHT HAVE LIFE AND HAVE IT MORE ABUNDANTLY." :pray::pray::pray:

Shalom to Jerusalem and the world in the most Holy Name of Jesus / Y'shua. Amen.
White

[Stephen]

Good morning, people!

I've been taking a break from this forum so as to catch up with other needful things. I must say, the break has been profitable. I enjoy debating points, arguing for a point of view, searching out a matter, and wondering about why God does what He does, and trying to figure it out. But it does get tedious when there's little give and take in the debate. I'm definitely one who is not prepared to cede so much as a blade of grass to the opposition in respect to God's plan involving the twelve tribes of Israel. :lol:

I've had a glimpse at a few posts in the last five minutes, just to freshen myself up on what's been going on. Something I noticed in two of Richard's posts is his quote from Romans 9:7,8. It occurred to me that he may have misunderstood what Paul was saying in these verses. I read the following verses to get the sense of this isolated quote, where Paul is still speaking about physical seed.

Who are the children of the flesh in this verse? Is it Israel? I don't believe so. From context, Paul is using the seed of promise to refer to Isaac. The children of the flesh Paul is contextualising are the seed of Ishmael. Proof for this lies in verse 9, where Paul tells us plainly what he means. Let's examine these verses to see what they are really saying.

8 They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise: At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.

Paul is referring to the seed of promise, Isaac. He is setting up the contrast between the seed of the flesh - Ishmael - and the seed of promise - Isaac. That is what these verses are saying. This is proven by the verses that follow. Richard is therefore wrong when he quotes this verse to say "the Bible explicitly declares that unbelieving Israel are not the children of God". It does nothing of the sort. It is merely Richard's extrapolations that are at work in interpreting this verse, and this needs to be acknowledged.

This is not to say that Richard's extrapolation has no merit. But it does mean that he is mistaken in applying these verses to Israel. That is going beyond the context, for Israel comes from Isaac; and, if anything, the context of these verses contradicts Richard's position.

I haven't read most of the postings in this thread, so if I have repeated an objection to Richard's take on these verses, then so be it. I'm going to make myself a coffee, and start catching up on some other posts.:yo:

Stephen

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Good morning, people!
Hey there Stephen!

Great to see you had time for a visit.

I am absolutely thrilled by your strong challenge to my interpretation of Romans 9:6-7. :woohoo:

That's what we need to really get this issue cleared up.


I've been taking a break from this forum so as to catch up with other needful things. I must say, the break has been profitable. I enjoy debating points, arguing for a point of view, searching out a matter, and wondering about why God does what He does, and trying to figure it out. But it does get tedious when there's little give and take in the debate. I'm definitely one who is not prepared to cede so much as a blade of grass to the opposition in respect to God's plan involving the twelve tribes of Israel. :lol:

You're gonna give me the whole field of grass, bro! You just wait and see! :lol:


I've had a glimpse at a few posts in the last five minutes, just to freshen myself up on what's been going on. Something I noticed in two of Richard's posts is his quote from Romans 9:7,8. It occurred to me that he may have misunderstood what Paul was saying in these verses. I read the following verses to get the sense of this isolated quote, where Paul is still speaking about physical seed.

Who are the children of the flesh in this verse? Is it Israel? I don't believe so. From context, Paul is using the seed of promise to refer to Isaac. The children of the flesh Paul is contextualising are the seed of Ishmael.
No, that's not possible because Paul is talking ONLY about people who are known as "Israel." He said "they are not all Israel, who are of Israel." This CAN NOT apply to Ishmael because he was not "of Israel" in any sense of the word. Indeed, Israel did not even exist at the time he was born, but was the name given to his half-brother Isaac's son Jacob many years later. It is absurd to suggest that Paul was talking about Ishmael in this passage.


Proof for this lies in verse 9, where Paul tells us plainly what he means. Let's examine these verses to see what they are really saying.

8 They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise: At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.

Paul is referring to the seed of promise, Isaac. He is setting up the contrast between the seed of the flesh - Ishmael - and the seed of promise - Isaac. That is what these verses are saying. This is proven by the verses that follow. Richard is therefore wrong when he quotes this verse to say "the Bible explicitly declares that unbelieving Israel are not the children of God". It does nothing of the sort. It is merely Richard's extrapolations that are at work in interpreting this verse, and this needs to be acknowledged.
Yes, Paul was talking about the "promise" and that promise is the promise of the Gospel of righteousness through FAITH as he stated earlier in Romans 4:16 "so that the promise would be sure to all the seed" the SEED includes believers from Israel and Gentiles, it has nothing to do with having Abraham as a natural ancestor. That's the point of all Paul's writings. I'm surprised you missed it.

And I extrapolated nothing. The text plainly and explicitly states that "they are not all Israel, which are of Israel." The contrast is between Fleshly versus Faithful Israel. It has nothing to do with Ishmael because Ishmael was never "of Israel" in any sense of the word. Here, look at the text again:


Romans 9:6-8 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Paul was talking about people who were called "Israel." No one else is in the picture. Paul was not talking about Ishmael. The proof is total and complete.


This is not to say that Richard's extrapolation has no merit. But it does mean that he is mistaken in applying these verses to Israel. That is going beyond the context, for Israel comes from Isaac; and, if anything, the context of these verses contradicts Richard's position.
Now you are really stretching things. There is nothing in that verse that suggests any kind of "contradiction' with my position.


I haven't read most of the postings in this thread, so if I have repeated an objection to Richard's take on these verses, then so be it. I'm going to make myself a coffee, and start catching up on some other posts.:yo:

Stephen

I really look forward to your response on this one, my friend!


Richard

[Stephen]

Hi there, Richard:yo::lol:

Not one of blade of grass, my friend. Not one. :D

The point Paul is making is to define the seed of promise. The verses I analysed are part of that preamble. Yes, they are written in regard to Israel, but only in defining who Israel is not. Israel is not Ishmael, because Ishmael is of the flesh, not of the promise. Israel came by promise, through Isaac.

You are still falling back on extrapolation, my friend. I let the content of the verses in question speak for themselves. They say that the righteousness of faith, if we want to extrapolate, comes from Abraham believing God concerning the promise of Isaac (Genesis 15:2-6). Not Ishmael, but Isaac was the seed of promise referred to here, and Abraham believed God's promise. From this promise proceed the twelve sons of Israel.

With verse 6, I suggest you need to rethink it. First, you have two Israels mentioned. Two Israels. I have always contended that Israel has two parts here. To this second part, Paul addresses the following:

"Hath God cast away his people? God forbid" (Romans 11:1).

"God hath not cast away his people, which he foreknew" (Romans 11:2).

"Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid" (Romans 11:11).

"Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the richness of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?" (Romans 11:12).

"For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?" (Romans 11:15).

Paul then goes on expressly to state, and I want you to take heed to this verse in particular, my friend:

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25).

Again, the context comes out on the side of there being a physical Israel, blinded to their identity and calling, who nevertheless are absolutely a part of God's plan. This is the context you appear to be completely overlooking when you quote Romans 9:6. Paul is making a distinction within Israel, but he is absolutely not coming to the same conclusions as you. He is saying the Gentiles are grafted in, but not that God has done away with Israel, as you claim. Let me reiterate, just to make sure you haven' missed it:

"Hath God cast away his people? God forbid"

"Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid"

This, I believe, is the mystery Paul speaks of, which you are still struggling to grasp. Israel is much more than just the church. This is what Paul is trying to make you aware of, if you'll just take off your church hat and leave it off for a minute. God has been working with unbelieving Israel since the beginning. He most certainly hasn't finished yet, but He's getting there.

"And so all Israel shall be saved" (Romans 11:26).

This verse, and the rest up to the end of the chapter, only make sense if the church is not all Israel, as I have been saying all along. Paul understood this mystery. He knew the OT very well, and with the Holy Spirit as his teacher, he knew exactly that God had a plan that was being worked out with unbelieving Israel - the twelve tribes - that ran parallel with His plan for the church. This is what Paul is telling us in his discourse on Israel, spanning the 9th to the 11th chapters of Romans. I hope you will take off your church cap for a while and think about what I have said here, because it's not difficult to grasp from the verses in Romans 11.

Not one blade of grass:yo:

Stephen

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi there, Richard:yo::lol:

Not one of blade of grass, my friend. Not one. :D


You'll be lucky if I leave you with one blade, my friend!

And as we wrestle this out, let us never forget that we are friends! Amen?

:tea:


The point Paul is making is to define the seed of promise. The verses I analysed are part of that preamble.
That is partially correct, but it seems like you misunderstand what it means. The "seed of promise" refers to all believers in Jesus whether they be of Israel or of the Gentiles. That is one of the primary points of the whole book of Romans. He explained it in detail way back in Romans 4 where he said the "seed of promise" are all those who have the faith of Abraham:


Romans 4:13-16 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: .... 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law [Israel], but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
To identify the "seed of promise" with Isaac is correct in as much as Isaac was the promised son. But it is entirely incorrect in as much as the whole point of Romans is that all believers in Jesus are "counted as seed" as explained in Galatians 3:29 "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

All Christians are "Abraham's seed, and heirs according to promise." And no one else is "counted as seed" but those that are of the Faith of Abraham. Fleshly descent means absolutely nothing in the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

This is a fundamental point. Please let us know what you think about it.


Yes, they are written in regard to Israel, but only in defining who Israel is not. Israel is not Ishmael, because Ishmael is of the flesh, not of the promise. Israel came by promise, through Isaac.
The text does not mention Ishmael. He is not the subject of Romans 9, and there is nothing in this part of the text that even hints at him. You can not just say "The text is talking about Ishmael" when in fact the text is explicitly talking about ISRAEL. The text says "they are not all Israel, which are of Israel" which means that there are some "of Israel" that are not truly "Israel." It can not be talking about Ishmael because Ishmael was never "of Israel."

The text is talking about who is true Israel and who is fleshly. This is totally obvious incontrovertible. Paul uses similar language earlier in Romans when he said:


Romans 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. The parallel is perfect and complete. There is no question, no confusion. Paul explicitly distinguished between fleshly Jews and spiritual Jews here, just as he explicitly distinguished between fleshly Israel and spiritual Israel later in the same book! We're talking about the plain meaning of the whole Pauline corpus!

It's all just too obvious man! Gimme your big green lawn, now! :lol:


You are still falling back on extrapolation, my friend. I let the content of the verses in question speak for themselves.
You did nothing of the sort! You stuck Ishmael in the text when he absolutely was not part of the intended meaning as is obvious by the fact that he was not "of Israel" and so not part of that topic.

And I have absolutely no idea what you mean by "extrapolation."


With verse 6, I suggest you need to rethink it. First, you have two Israels mentioned. Two Israels. I have always contended that Israel has two parts here.
What are you talking about? What "two Israels"? The text defines them in context as the children of the flesh versus the children of God, with the latter group including Gentiles, for all Christians are defined as the "circumcision" in Philippians 3:3.

And sure, I'd be happy to rethink it. Indeed, I would be delighted to rethink it in accordance with your explanation of what you think it means, if you would be so kind to tell me. As it is, I have no idea how you interpret the sentence "they are not all Israel, which are of Israel". Excuse me for a moment, I need to shout a little:

PLEASE ANSWER THIS QUESTION: What do you think "they are not all Israel, which are of Israel" means?


Paul then goes on expressly to state, and I want you to take heed to this verse in particular, my friend:

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25).
[sarcasm alert]

Oh my! That's in the Bible? I never saw that before! Yes, I'll take particular heed indeed! How could I have missed it?

[/end sarcasm alert]

I hope our friendship can survive this test! Not that I'm feeling any stress .. ... I'm having a blast. :D I just never know if I might accidentally go to far with my sarcasm or something. I never intend to offend. So let me know if I get out of line, OK? I really do value our conversation.



Again, the context comes out on the side of there being a physical Israel, blinded to their identity and calling, who nevertheless are absolutely a part of God's plan. This is the context you appear to be completely overlooking when you quote Romans 9:6. Paul is making a distinction within Israel, but he is absolutely not coming to the same conclusions as you. He is saying the Gentiles are grafted in, but not that God has done away with Israel, as you claim.
Scuse me ... I need to shout again;

I HAVE NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER claimed that God "did away" with Israel!

Never!

You have completely misunderstood the point that I have repeated many times now.

Israel has always been the Church!

In the OT, folks could be born into Israel. Then Christ came, and the only way in to the NEW COVENANT was through FAITH.

So the unbelieving branches - which Paul calls the "children of the flesh" were broken off though unbelief, exactly as stated in the Bible.

Then the believing Gentiles were grafted into the Vine (Christ) with the natural branches made up of believing Israel.

Why is that so hard to understand? Is not every word of it derived directly from the Bible?




Not one blade of grass:yo:

Stephen

The whole green field is mine!

Great talking Stephen. Lets work to really listen to each other so we can really come to mutual understanding of the Bible on this point.

Thanks for all you efforts my brother!

Richard

[Stephen]

Hi Richard!

The point was that righteousness was unobtainable through the law when we bring up Abraham and his seed. The promise was that Sarah would have a child, even though she was beyond the age of bearing. Yes, this also is an antitype of Christ, and of us entering into the church through faith in Jesus Christ. In any event, Abraham antedates the law, so it might be argued that the promises given him are not subject to the law anyway.

I have not the slightest problem with our Lord's injuction that we need to be born again. Without it, we can never be justified in God's eyes. You will never see me dispute that. You will never see me say that physical Israel is saved either. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. You will also never see me say that physical Israel is the church. I am totally in agreement with you that only believers are saved.

Now when it comes to Romans 9:6, might I suggest that instead of yelling, how about listening. Yelling only makes you deaf, my friend. Because there is this need for clarification, I will state my view once more. There are two Israels mentioned in the verse. One is us, the church. The other is physical Israel, those scattered because of their unbelief. We are both already agreed on this point.

The physical are not the spiritual Israel. They are the branches that have been broken off because of unbelief. We are agreed upon that, and actually always have been. That is Paul's point. We are in agreement, at some level at least, that fleshly Israel means nothing in the salvation gospel of Jesus Christ. Where we differ is in our view of what happens to those broken branches. And that is the crux of the matter ... probably (we always seem to misconstrue one another's statements, so I never know if the statement I just made means the same to you as it does to me. Language is a hassle at times!). :)

Had to put that smiley in there incidentally as an acknowledgment that we are brothers, Richard. If we ever forget that fundamental truth, just because we don't agree over an issue, then may God kick our butts for being so dumb! But please go gently, Lord!

There, I think I've finally defined what has been so hard to define up until now. Our point of divergence seems to lie in the broken branches, and God's plan for them. In fact, up to that point we were always generally in agreement, though I'd never have thought so. I have to admit that I think I might have been misunderstanding your point up till now. Kind of, anyway.

"So, maybe we are back on track," uttered the optimist. I hope so, because there is much we both can learn from one another. As I see it, and correct me if I've misunderstood you on this, you believe that God has no other purpose for physical Israel outside of the gospel plan. Is that your position, bro? And my position is that God does have a plan for them, even though they are not yet saved. That's where I'm coming from, both in that sarcastic verse from Romans 11:25 that you highlighted, and in everything I write concerning the twelve tribes.

That's probably all I've got to say for now. Is there anything else that needs to be put in place?
And please, the gate was always open! Enjoy the pasture!

Your brother in Christ,
Stephen

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Richard!
Good morning Stephen!

Thanks for the great post. I really appreciate your effort to find our common understanding. It never ceases to amaze me how difficult it can be for two friends and brothers in the Lord to understand each other.


I have not the slightest problem with our Lord's injuction that we need to be born again. Without it, we can never be justified in God's eyes. You will never see me dispute that. You will never see me say that physical Israel is saved either. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. You will also never see me say that physical Israel is the church. I am totally in agreement with you that only believers are saved.
OK - that seems clear, except the point about physical Israel "not being saved." There seems to be a persistent confusion about the meaning of "physical Israel." (Its not just you, I confuse the term myself sometimes.)

You seem to identify "physical Israel" only with the broken branches. That is an error that I think has caused a lot of the confusion between us. Some branches of physical Israel remained attached to the Olive Tree through faith in Christ (e.g. all the Apostles), many were broken off due to unbelief. It is incorrect to speak of "physical Israel" as if all members were broken branches.

It seems like you hold the view that when a member of physical Israel became a Christian, he ceased to be physical Israel. Bad definitions are the root of 90% of all confusions in the world.


Now when it comes to Romans 9:6, might I suggest that instead of yelling, how about listening. Yelling only makes you deaf, my friend.
Ah come on my friend, gimme a break! I had to raise my voice to be heard over that mighty rushing wind of distraction you directed my way. :lol:


Because there is this need for clarification, I will state my view once more. There are two Israels mentioned in the verse. One is us, the church. The other is physical Israel, those scattered because of their unbelief. We are both already agreed on this point.
OK - we are almost there. I now believe we have isolated the precise error. You have mistakenly identified unbelieving Israel with physical Israel. That is not the proper identification. The point Paul was making is that within physical Israel, there are believers and unbelievers. The believers constitute the Church along with the Gentiles that were grafted in. The unbelievers are branches broken off. There is no proper disjunction between the "Church" and "physical Israel" because a single person may simultaneously be a member of both groups, as was the case with all the Apostles.


The physical are not the spiritual Israel. They are the branches that have been broken off because of unbelief. We are agreed upon that, and actually always have been. That is Paul's point.
We agree! :woohoo:

It will be interesting for a forum archivologist to study how we could have so persistently thought we disagreed about this fundamental point. She could probably write a dissertation. Thank God we don't have to worry about the "why" of it all. I'm just glad we see eye-to-eye now.


We are in agreement, at some level at least, that fleshly Israel means nothing in the salvation gospel of Jesus Christ. Where we differ is in our view of what happens to those broken branches. And that is the crux of the matter ... probably (we always seem to misconstrue one another's statements, so I never know if the statement I just made means the same to you as it does to me. Language is a hassle at times!). :)
I do believe we have arrived! Thanks for your perseverance, my friend!

I don't claim to know God's purpose for the broken branches except to say what the Bible says. They can be grafted back in if they do not abide in unbelief.

I do think that there is plenty of verses in the Bible that could be construed as indicating a future role of the broken branches in God's Plan, but any theories formulated as quite certain to remain quite uncertain, if you get my drift. Every point will be debated, and I don't see it ever coming to a certain conclusion before it actually is played out in history (if it ever is).

It is clear you think it is important that we understand the "future role" of the Broken Branches. Why is that? What difference does it make in our understanding of Christ, the Bible, or our ministries? I think now we can fruitfully discuss it since we have identified the fundamental misunderstanding, or so it seems.


Had to put that smiley in there incidentally as an acknowledgment that we are brothers, Richard. If we ever forget that fundamental truth, just because we don't agree over an issue, then may God kick our butts for being so dumb! But please go gently, Lord!
Amen a thousand times! And a good brother you are, for you have persevered through much misunderstanding. Thanks!


There, I think I've finally defined what has been so hard to define up until now. Our point of divergence seems to lie in the broken branches, and God's plan for them.
I do believe you have located the "fly in the ointment." But let me correct one detail - we have never discussed God's plan for the broken branches without all the attendant confusion, so I don't think we really know what each others ideas are on this issue. So we don't even know how much our views "diverge." Now that we have found the real point of discussion, I am quite interested in pursuing it.


In fact, up to that point we were always generally in agreement, though I'd never have thought so. I have to admit that I think I might have been misunderstanding your point up till now. Kind of, anyway.
Thanks. It takes a real man to admit things like that in a heated debate. I pray I will live up to your example. :thumb:



"So, maybe we are back on track," uttered the optimist. I hope so, because there is much we both can learn from one another.
Amen again!


As I see it, and correct me if I've misunderstood you on this, you believe that God has no other purpose for physical Israel outside of the gospel plan. Is that your position, bro? And my position is that God does have a plan for them, even though they are not yet saved. That's where I'm coming from, both in that sarcastic verse from Romans 11:25 that you highlighted, and in everything I write concerning the twelve tribes.
You are definitely in the "ball-park" but I have not stated my beliefs about God's Plan for the broken branches. But I do think that we will differ greatly in this area. But now that we've cut through that jungle of confusion, maybe we can have a fruitful conversation about what has always been the real issue!

I feel like we're a couple of archeologists who have been hacking our way through the Amazon Jungle of Confusion, and have just reached the clearing in which the ancient Mayan temple stands ready to be explored.

Well done Stephen. I can't tell you have thankful I am that you chose to work through this with me. I also think it will help your cause significantly, since now you know some of the confusions that might cause sincere Christians to needlessly reject your your assertions.


That's probably all I've got to say for now. Is there anything else that needs to be put in place?
And please, the gate was always open! Enjoy the pasture!

Your brother in Christ,
Stephen

http://www.biblewheel.com/images/coweating.gif

Yuuuuummmmmmmm -- its mine, all mine!

[shalag]

You are definitely in the "ball-park" but I have not stated my beliefs about God's Plan for the broken branches. But I do think that we will differ greatly in this area. But now that we've cut through that jungle of confusion, maybe we can have a fruitful conversation about what has always been the real issue!

:pop2: I'm guessing that Stephen is going to fly the plane :plane: making stops along the 'whole route' but that Richard might want to take the 'express route' :planeup2: going directly to Jude :pop2:

Staying tuned.

[joel]

Yuuuuummmmmmmm -- its mine, all mine!
--------------------------------------------------------

Richard, please consider these few thoughts, as pertain to your recent discussions with Stephen ;

In Romans, Chapter 2, I would suggest that the delineation is between the "outward" Jew, and the "inward" Jew, rather than "fleshly" Jew vs. "spiritual" Jew.
The "outward" Jew is one who, claiming the name of Jew, and being outwardly circumcised is "resting in the law", "boasting in God", claiming to know the "will of God", "testing" the things which are of consequence, "being instructed out of the law". But, is unable to fulfill the just requirements of the law, and, is, in fact, doing the opposite outwardly because his circumcision is only outward. (Romans 2:17-25).
In the day of judging, he will be judged by those who, by nature, have the law written on their hearts....and while fulfilling the just requirements of the law are having their uncircumcision (of the outward flesh) reckoned as circumcision....(Romans 2:26).

In Romans, Chapter 9, rather than "fleshly Israel" vs. "spiritual Israel", Paul is making a distinction between the "children of the flesh", vs. "the children of the promise".
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

In verse 6, he is making the plain statement....."For they are not all Israel which are of Israel."
In verse 7, "neither because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children."
In verse 8, he is making his focal point......."they which are children of the flesh (both from out of Israel, and, from out of Abraham)......"these are not the children of God;"
.......it is the "children of the promise (which) are counted (reckoned) for the seed.

Who are "the children of the promise" that are "the children of God"?

When we study of the scripture concerning Abram, who became Abraham, and, Sarai, who became Sarah, and take the teachings of Paul to gain clarification, the "flesh" is taken completely out of the picture.

It centers upon God's sovereign choice of us, not on our choice of Him.


Joel

[Rose]

I'm not sure about the future role of the "broken off branches", but I do know that every blessing, every promise, all their God given inheritance, "everything promised" to the Israel of the O.T. has been fulfilled in Christ. So there remains no more promises for the "broken off branches" aside from being grafted back in to their "natural olive tree" and partaking of the fullness of all the promises that God made to them through Christ.

The clearest way for me to look at it, is as a father and son. The son receives all his inheritance from his father if he remains in the family. If he rejects his fathers name he loses his inheritance (he is cut off), there remains no other inheritance for him to receive. He must return back to his fathers house to receive what he was promised as part of the family. And we well know from the parable of the prodigal son that God is waiting to take them back with open arms!

God is continuing to call the "broken off branches" back. A remnant has survived and God has miraculously brought them back to the land of Israel, so when the times of the gentiles are fulfilled (that is the completion of the wild branches being grafted in), all Israel will be saved.


Rom 11:33 "Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!"

Rose

[Stephen]

Hi Rose!

I kind of agree with your statements, and I kind of don't. That's because this subject of physical Israel hasn't been very well researched by most Christians. Generally speaking, the fleshly Israel are dismissed from the picture, or are entirely replaced by the Jews. Both of these are not correct views, in my opinion.

I see physical Israel, fleshly Israel - I really don't like either of those terms because of their imprecision, but what else can we call them really - as being in a process of returning to God through Christ. Much of the process has already occurred, but there is a way to go yet. As you probably know, I believe that America, as well as certain other nominally Protestant Christian nations, are the bulk of what we might term fleshly Israel. They are gradually being reincorporated by God into what, for want of a better term, we might call all Israel. This is the olive tree, to which the Gentiles have been grafted in, and from which the natural branches were broken off. This process involves acknowledging Christ nationally - and please remember, this has been a gradual ongoing process over many many centuries, and is certainly not a done thing - which is why the church has its haven in certain nations, where it is free from persecution.

The Jews are also part of fleshly Israel, and have a very important role to play. They are the physical representatives in the homeland. But they are only one of the branches that have been broken off. The ten tribes of the Northern Kingdom - known also as Israel, Ephraim and Samaria in Scripture - were broken off long before Jesus came on the scene. This is important, because these are the branches that have been, and are still being, grafted back in to the olive tree.

Essentially, of all the tribes, it was only the unbelieving Jews that were present to witness, and reject, the Messiah. The rest of the tribes had been scattered many centuries prior to this event. These people are referred to in Scripture as the synagogue of satan, the unbelieving Jews. It is my view that the Jews will likely be converted at the Lord's return, and not before. That's the only way I can make sense of Zechariah 12:10 and Revelation 1:7. I think a lot more will be revealed at this time, too.

A very interesting point worth considering is that, in Jesus' time, the scattered ten-tribed house of Israel had become thoroughly gentilised, and were now, in fact, Gentiles. They were in a state of wandering. Many of the places that the apostles were told to go and preach to would have had large sections of scattered ten-tribed Israel both resident and in transit. After the initial Jewish believers, it is worth considering that the largest Gentile groups that then accepted Christ may themselves have been from the broken branches of the Northern Kingdom. After all, the prophets did promise scattered Israel that a remnant would be converted, and that they would remember God in their exile. Both Peter and James wrote epistles to these dispersed people, which indicates that they may have had a good idea of where they were.

This is a very big subject and I've probably made too many points already. It's just that there is so much more to say! But I will leave off here for now. Thanks for your contribution and your interesting thoughts, Rose.

Stephen

PS: I know there is another very similar way of reading the broken branches thing. That scenario would involve the broken branches being the unbelieving Jews only, whereas the church would include in its definition the ongoing Christianisation (another poor term, because it really needs to be defined, but you get my drift) of both the scattered tribes and the Gentiles from all nations. This is essentially a variation on the same theme. An interesting one, nonetheless.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Richard, please consider these few thoughts, as pertain to your recent discussions with Stephen ;

In Romans, Chapter 2, I would suggest that the delineation is between the "outward" Jew, and the "inward" Jew, rather than "fleshly" Jew vs. "spiritual" Jew.
The "outward" Jew is one who, claiming the name of Jew, and being outwardly circumcised is "resting in the law", "boasting in God", claiming to know the "will of God", "testing" the things which are of consequence, "being instructed out of the law". But, is unable to fulfill the just requirements of the law, and, is, in fact, doing the opposite outwardly because his circumcision is only outward. (Romans 2:17-25).
In the day of judging, he will be judged by those who, by nature, have the law written on their hearts....and while fulfilling the just requirements of the law are having their uncircumcision (of the outward flesh) reckoned as circumcision....(Romans 2:26).
Hi Joel,

I'm glad you jumped in here. I know you have thought a lot about these issues, and probably have some valuable insights.

As for the way Scripture talks about the Jews at the end of Romans 2. lets look at the text again:


Romans 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
I don't understand why you don't think the flesh vs spirit is the proper distinction. Both words are used as descriptive terms in the text, and the categories of flesh vs spirit are fundamental to the Bible. Could you explain why you don't think they are appropriate here? It seems to me they describe the situation perfectly.


In Romans, Chapter 9, rather than "fleshly Israel" vs. "spiritual Israel", Paul is making a distinction between the "children of the flesh", vs. "the children of the promise".
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

In verse 6, he is making the plain statement....."For they are not all Israel which are of Israel."
In verse 7, "neither because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children."
In verse 8, he is making his focal point......."they which are children of the flesh (both from out of Israel, and, from out of Abraham)......"these are not the children of God;"
.......it is the "children of the promise (which) are counted (reckoned) for the seed.

Who are "the children of the promise" that are "the children of God"?

When we study of the scripture concerning Abram, who became Abraham, and, Sarai, who became Sarah, and take the teachings of Paul to gain clarification, the "flesh" is taken completely out of the picture.

It centers upon God's sovereign choice of us, not on our choice of Him.

Joel
OK - I think I see what you are getting at. You are saying that the children of the flesh are everyone not ordained to eternal life, and the children of the promise are the elect. Is that correct?

But I don't know what you mean when you say the "'flesh' is taken completely out of the picture" because the "flesh" is a fundamental category found throughout the Pauline corpus.

I look forward to your clarification.

Richard

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I'm not sure about the future role of the "broken off branches", but I do know that every blessing, every promise, all their God given inheritance, "everything promised" to the Israel of the O.T. has been fulfilled in Christ. So there remains no more promises for the "broken off branches" aside from being grafted back in to their "natural olive tree" and partaking of the fullness of all the promises that God made to them through Christ.
Wow. That is super-lucid! Thanks Rose! :thumb:


The clearest way for me to look at it, is as a father and son. The son receives all his inheritance from his father if he remains in the family. If he rejects his fathers name he loses his inheritance (he is cut off), there remains no other inheritance for him to receive. He must return back to his fathers house to receive what he was promised as part of the family. And we well know from the parable of the prodigal son that God is waiting to take them back with open arms!
Amen indeed!


God is continuing to call the "broken off branches" back. A remnant has survived and God has miraculously brought them back to the land of Israel, so when the times of the gentiles are fulfilled (that is the completion of the wild branches being grafted in), all Israel will be saved.

Rose

Makes me think of John 15:


John 15:1-6 [Jesus says:] I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

This is why I can not imagine that God has a "plan" for the broken branches other than to graft them back in. What "promise" could He offer them that is great than the Promise of Christ - the Lord of All and Saviour of the World in who are hidden all Treasures of Wisdom and Knowledge? If we ever forget Him, or forget that He is the PURPOSE and END of all our preaching, then our theology is dung.

Richard

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Rose!

I kind of agree with your statements, and I kind of don't. That's because this subject of physical Israel hasn't been very well researched by most Christians. Generally speaking, the fleshly Israel are dismissed from the picture, or are entirely replaced by the Jews. Both of these are not correct views, in my opinion.

I see physical Israel, fleshly Israel - I really don't like either of those terms because of their imprecision, but what else can we call them really - as being in a process of returning to God through Christ.
Hey there my friend!

If the terms are imprecise, why not take a minute to define the precise terms?

Who are you trying to talk about? I get the impression they are the natural sons of Isaac - note I narrowed the definition down from Abraham to avoid confusions relating to Ishmael.


Much of the process has already occurred, but there is a way to go yet. As you probably know, I believe that America, as well as certain other nominally Protestant Christian nations, are the bulk of what we might term fleshly Israel. They are gradually being reincorporated by God into what, for want of a better term, we might call all Israel. This is the olive tree, to which the Gentiles have been grafted in, and from which the natural branches were broken off. This process involves acknowledging Christ nationally - and please remember, this has been a gradual ongoing process over many many centuries, and is certainly not a done thing - which is why the church has its haven in certain nations, where it is free from persecution.

I like your use of the Olive Tree and Branches. It seems like the clearest way to discuss the people groups involved in this issue.

But you seem to have a huge theory built up about world-wide activities and people groups that are supposed to be Israel ... how will you ever know if any of it is true? And if its true, so what?


The Jews are also part of fleshly Israel, and have a very important role to play. They are the physical representatives in the homeland. But they are only one of the branches that have been broken off. The ten tribes of the Northern Kingdom - known also as Israel, Ephraim and Samaria in Scripture - were broken off long before Jesus came on the scene. This is important, because these are the branches that have been, and are still being, grafted back in to the olive tree.
Scripture never talks about branches being broken off before Christ, does it?

When you say the branches are being grafted back in, are you talking about folks who think they are Gentiles but are really Isrealites who convert to Christ?


Essentially, of all the tribes, it was only the unbelieving Jews that were present to witness, and reject, the Messiah. The rest of the tribes had been scattered many centuries prior to this event.
If that is true, then how could you identify the woman in Rev 12 who brought forth Christ in the first century with Manasseh?


A very interesting point worth considering is that, in Jesus' time, the scattered ten-tribed house of Israel had become thoroughly gentilised, and were now, in fact, Gentiles. They were in a state of wandering. Many of the places that the apostles were told to go and preach to would have had large sections of scattered ten-tribed Israel both resident and in transit. After the initial Jewish believers, it is worth considering that the largest Gentile groups that then accepted Christ may themselves have been from the broken branches of the Northern Kingdom.
Well, that's entirely speculative, and it seems entirely unlikely that the 10 tribes would accept Jesus when the Jews didn't.


After all, the prophets did promise scattered Israel that a remnant would be converted,
Paul quoted that as fulfilled by the JEWS that he referred to as "Israel" in Romans 9:

Romans 9:27-31 ¶ Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: 28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. 29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha. 30 ¶ What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Romans 9:32-33 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; [CHRIST] 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

I really think your insistence on distinguishing between Jews and Israel is the root source of a lot of confusion. The NT does not make that distinction.


and that they would remember God in their exile. Both Peter and James wrote epistles to these dispersed people, which indicates that they may have had a good idea of where they were.
Maybe ... there is an interesting reference to the "12 tribes scattered abroad," but that is probably just a poetic way to refer to the Jews. Note there was no reference to the "10 tribes."


This is a very big subject and I've probably made too many points already. It's just that there is so much more to say! But I will leave off here for now. Thanks for your contribution and your interesting thoughts, Rose.

Stephen

The funny thing is Stephen, that you have written miles of posts and I have read them and interacted with them, but none of what you are talking about strikes any "biblical chords" in my heart. It makes no sense to my why you think its important, or why you think its true.


PS: I know there is another very similar way of reading the broken branches thing. That scenario would involve the broken branches being the unbelieving Jews only, whereas the church would include in its definition the ongoing Christianisation (another poor term, because it really needs to be defined, but you get my drift) of both the scattered tribes and the Gentiles from all nations. This is essentially a variation on the same theme. An interesting one, nonetheless.

That won't work. Paul identified ISRAEL with the broken branches in Romans 11:

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

RAM

[Stephen]

Hi Richard!

Way too many questions to answer. The one I really would like to answer is the 'so what?' one. But to get there so many other things need to be put in place.

To test whether or not any of it is true, we have to return to the prophecies given over specific tribes for the last days. That means Genesis 49 and Deuteronomy 33. It also means laying down a few ground rules for interpretation.

I say that these prophecies are meant for specific tribes of people. The fact that each tribe is given a blessing to distinguish itself from another tribe seems to be saying as much, and mitigates against the possibility of these blessings being lumped into one big generalised narrative. Would you agree with this?

Stephen

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Richard!

Way too many questions to answer. The one I really would like to answer is the 'so what?' one. But to get there so many other things need to be put in place.

To test whether or not any of it is true, we have to return to the prophecies given over specific tribes for the last days. That means Genesis 49 and Deuteronomy 33. It also means laying down a few ground rules for interpretation.
I like the sound of "ground rules." I call them "Principles of Interpretation." But they should already be in place. Or did you need to invent "new rules" to fit this special case? I think that's a no-no. :nono:


I say that these prophecies are meant for specific tribes of people. The fact that each tribe is given a blessing to distinguish itself from another tribe seems to be saying as much, and mitigates against the possibility of these blessings being lumped into one big generalised narrative. Would you agree with this?

Stephen
Well, you seem to be saying that you will be able to discern modern groups of people from the prophecies spoken over them. It just doesn't seem likely because prophecies can be read so many different ways, and you have already gotten the symbols of Dan (Eagle) mixed in with Manasseh, who wasn't the woman in Rev 12, and there is Ephraim's "many nations" to consider, etc., etc., etc. It all seems so chasing after the wind - like it leads to more confusion than anything like certainty. And then there is the fact that we are so busy talking about these things that Christ is lost from view. And then there is the BIG question of how you arrrived at this idea in the first place, because I see nothing in the Bible that suggests it, and then there's the BIG BIG question about "so what?". Don't you realize that you've written a small book on this forum, and I still don't have any clarity? I just don't understand why you care about this. When you first began talking about it you said that it made the whole Bible make sense like never before. Well, that has not been my experience. I'm not criticizing .... just telling you how things seem to me.

Good chatting bro. Talk more soon,

Richard

[Stephen]

Hi Richard!

I take it that you don't agree that we can trace the tribes from the words spoken over them at Genesis 49 and Deuteronomy 33. A simple yes or no will suffice, nothing more is needed.

Stephen

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Richard!

I take it that you don't agree that we can trace the tribes from the words spoken over them at Genesis 49 and Deuteronomy 33. A simple yes or no will suffice, nothing more is needed.

Stephen
No.

But I think it important to go beyond the "simple no" and list a few of the primary reasons:

The symbols are too ambiguous, and could apply to a great many people in many times and places
There is no way to test the assumptions to prove them true or false.
The 10 tribes have been assimilated into the Gentiles, and so the basic plan seems highly unlikely from the start.
There is nothing in the Bible that I know of that would suggest that we attempt such an identification.
We've had a long conversation on this issue, and it seems to lead to confusion, and it doesn't ring any "Biblical bells."
I have no idea what the value of this exercise would be, and it seems that things are so unclear, you can not simply state its purpose but must give a very long preamble that introduces a host of issues that need further clarification.
So all in all, it seems like you are operating with a set of assumptions that are foreign to my understanding of the Bible, and which involve ideas I have never encountered despite decades of study and a wide range of reading Christian scholastic material. This makes me think this idea is believed and understood by a very narrow band of Christians.Richard

[Stephen]

Hi there, Richard!

So you think we should just abandon these passages as too difficult, just because you can't see them leading anywhere? Then what is the point of Jacob giving them? It's his last will and testament, for goodness' sake! Why even copy these words into our Bible? And what about Moses? Same thing, his last will and testament to the people of Israel. If we can't at least try to see what these guys were saying, what's the point of these words even being in the Bible?!

Stephen

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi there, Richard!

So you think we should just abandon these passages as too difficult, just because you can't see them leading anywhere? Then what is the point of Jacob giving them? It's his last will and testament, for goodness' sake! Why even copy these words into our Bible? And what about Moses? Same thing, his last will and testament to the people of Israel. If we can't at least try to see what these guys were saying, what's the point of these words even being in the Bible?!

Stephen
Hey there Stephen,

First, I'd like to say I like this more conversational short "give-and-take" style exchange because its more likely that we'll track with each other and less likely that we'll get lost writing mile long posts about some simple misunderstanding.

Now to answer your questions: I have NEVER said anything remotely like "we shouldn't try to see what these guys were saying." Do you realize that you consistently put words in my mouth that I have never written nor implied? Some people might find that rather "frustrating."

Furthermore, your "questions" are loaded with a lot of "hidden assumptions." You are assuming the the blessings of Jacob and Moses would be completely "meaningless" and should not even be in the Bible if they were not put there specifically as clues to your very idiosyncratic project of matching Gentile nations with Israeli tribes. Please don't take that the wrong way. "Idiosyncratic" is not "bad" - but it is also not something that you can expect most people to agree with because it is based on your own private intuitions rather than what the text of the Bible actually says.

The Bible does not say that the Gentile nations are really the Tribes of Israel in disguise. The Bible does not say that we can discern their hidden identities by reading those rather cryptic blessings. So I think you might want to reformulate your questions in a way that does not impugn the Bible if your theory about the Tribes happens to be wrong.

Richard

[Stephen]

Hi Richard!

So what do you think might be meant then when Jacob says such wonderful things concerning the material blessings and prosperity that Joseph would receive? Moses repeats these stupendous promises. What is your position on these promises? Have they been fulfilled? Are they yet future? Can we look at these two prophecies together, and see what possibilities are in there?

Stephen

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Richard!

So what do you think might be meant then when Jacob says such wonderful things concerning the material blessings and prosperity that Joseph would receive? Moses repeats these stupendous promises. What is your position on these promises? Have they been fulfilled? Are they yet future? Can we look at these two prophecies together, and see what possibilities are in there?

Stephen
Hey Bro!

I think it would be great to walk through those verses with you. But first, I have a very interesting post to read over in the Gematria forum .... something about a cube and Jerusalem ... looks fascinating!

RAM

[Stephen]

Hi Richard!

I've actually been wanting to say this all day - it's late evening here in Korea now - but how do you feel if we put this Israel thing on the backburner for a while? (How about indefinitely!). To be honest, I'd much prefer to focus my energies on that cube thing over at the gematria section of the forum. Besides, I don't think I can mount an argument convincing enough for you on the whereabouts of the twelve tribes topic. There's no value judgment intended in that statement. It's just an honest realisation that energies are better spent in something that's hopefully going to edify us all. I know I would get a lot more out of a refocus, and I dare say that others will benefit more, too. So, what say let's drop this subject matter of the tribes of Israel and just move on! After all, we began our friendship and fellowship around the topic of gematria, and I believe we can achieve great things together in it.

Your bro,
Stephen

[White]

Hi Stephen and Richard,

Ufta is all I can say - (and I'm not Swedish either)... Stephen, I totally understand your frustration, because I have w r e s t l e d with the same issue ( The Lord and I that is...) trying to understand HIS MEANING of HIS WORDS in HIS WORD, namely Genesis 49 (the double blessing on Joseph but the staff is with JUDAH (my personal interpretation is that Judah is the Jewish People and Joseph is as I said in some other post the Catholic Church and Christians who - I pray and hope with you - will eventually understand their true roots because Jesus says in Matthew 10:6 : Go rather to the lost sheep of the HOUSE OF ISRAEL - and is it too hard for the LORD to call "HIS LOST SHEEP back into the fold - after all He says in the same chapter verse 22ff: You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever ENDURES TO THE END will be saved. When they persecute you in one town, flee to another, Amen, I say to you, you will NOT finish the towns of Israel before the SON OF MAN comes. - Followed by the chapters of "Courage under Persecution" and "Jesus: A Cause of Division") All fits very neatly together, including the other sheep that will also come into the fold.

Of course, Ezekiel 37:15-28 - the two sticks : Judah ... and Joseph (the stifck of Ephraim = the House of Joseph in Genesis 49 - the WORD says the the TWO STICKS - THE TWO HOUSES will become ONE HOUSE (read verse 22: I will make them ONE NATION upon the LAND in the mountains of Israel, and there shall be ONE PRINCE (Y'SHUA HA-MASHIACH) for them all. NEVER again shall they be two nations, and never again shall they be divided into TWO KINGDOMS (JEWS and CHRISTIANS)
Sorry Richard, that's the only way I can read these passages at this point.

How about : Jeremiah 31:22: to start : How long will you continue to stray, rebellious daughter? The LORD has created a NEW THING upon the earth; the woman must encompass the man (ISRAEL the woman - Y'SHUA the man) - 31-34 THE NEW COVENANT : The days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a NEW COVENANT with the House of Israel and the House of JUDAH. It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers the day I took them by the hand to lead them forth from the land of Egypt, for they BROKE MY COVENANT and I had to show myself their master, says the LORD. But THIS is the covenant which I will make with the HOUSE OF ISRAEL after those days, says the LORD . I will place my law within them, and write it upon their hearts, I will be their God and they shall be my people.
(34) No longer will they have need to teach their friends and kinsmen how to know the LORD, ALL, FROM LEAST TO GREATEST, shall know me, says the LORD, for I will fortgive their evildoing and remember their sin no more. Now that is promise worth hanging onto....

Of course ISAIAH 49:22 says the same thing in different words: Thus says the LORD GOD: See, I will lift up my hand to the nations, and raise my signal to the peoples; they shall bring your sons in their arms and your daughters shall be carried on their shoulders." and the last verse : "I will make your oppressors eat their own flesh, and they shall be drunk with their own blood as with the juice of the grape. ALL MANKIND shall know that I, THE LORD, am your savior, your redeemer, the mighty one of
J A C O B ".

But lets go to ISAIAH 9:5-6 : For a child is born to us, a son is given us: upon his shoulder dominion rests. They name him Wonderful Counselor, Lord GOd, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. His dominion is vast and forever peaceful, from DAVID'S THRONE and over his kingdom, which he confirms and sustains by judgment and justice, both now and forever. But lets not quit here,

ISAIAH 11:1 : But a shoot shall sprout from the stump of Jesse, and from his roots a bud shall blossom. The Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, a Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, a Spirit of counsel and of strength, a Spirit of knowledge and of fear of the LORD and his delight shall be the Fear the LORD.... UNION OF EPHRAIM and JUDAH... esp. v. 11- 16, but 13 is huge: The envy of EPHRAIM shall pass away and the rivalry of JUDAH be removed; EPHRAIM shall not be jealous of JUDAH, and JUDAH shall not be hostile to EPHRAIMN, but they shall swoop down on the foothills of the Philistines to the west, together they shall plunder the Keedemites; Edom and Moab shall be their possessions, and the Ammonites their subjects. .... Translation: EPHRAIM (Catholics and Christians) JUDAH = JEWS, the others are the Arabs / Muslims / Philistines.

I got to run but keep reading the following :
Ezkiel 16:60-63, amazing passage, never heard anybody preach on ths
ISAIAH 4:1-6 about the NEW MILLENIUM - 7 woman (Church) / one man (JESUS)
and Isaiah 19:25 - etc I'll come back later.

Shalom to JERUSALEM and the HOLY LAND, see above
White

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Richard!

I've actually been wanting to say this all day - it's late evening here in Korea now - but how do you feel if we put this Israel thing on the backburner for a while? (How about indefinitely!). To be honest, I'd much prefer to focus my energies on that cube thing over at the gematria section of the forum. Besides, I don't think I can mount an argument convincing enough for you on the whereabouts of the twelve tribes topic. There's no value judgment intended in that statement. It's just an honest realisation that energies are better spent in something that's hopefully going to edify us all. I know I would get a lot more out of a refocus, and I dare say that others will benefit more, too. So, what say let's drop this subject matter of the tribes of Israel and just move on! After all, we began our friendship and fellowship around the topic of gematria, and I believe we can achieve great things together in it.

Your bro,
Stephen
Hey ho bro!

I think it is a really good idea to put the topic on the back-burner for a while and let our friendship develop in areas where the agreement is stronger. Nobody likes arguing all the time, not even me! :lol:

But on the other hand, we don't want to feel like the topic is "taboo" or anything like that. And the general topic of "who is Israel" in the NT is still an ongoing issue that really needs to be clarified, as seen in White's post in this thread, which I intend to answer when I finish this post.

So I think the most important thing is to acknowledge that we are mutually agreeing to let the analysis of your personal theory of the identity of the 12 tribes and modern Gentile nations rest. We do this with mutual respect, so its not like I'm saying something silly like "I WON! The grass is all mine!"

Richard

:cow:

Moograss is Mooine!

[Stephen]

Greetings, o Eater of Rich Pasture!

Nice one, bro! Let's see what gematrical magic we can cook up from the pages of Scripture for the edification of all. In private email exchanges between us in the past some really cool stuff always came up. I'm probably gonna come knocking at your door for a bit of assistance some time. I hear you're also in charge of the Graphics Department. It'll be just really basic stuff. I'm still in the Stone Age when it comes to this computer bizzo. You'll find me chiseling away my thoughts down at the quarry most days, enjoying bronto on toast with Barney Rubble and the crew.

Stephen

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Stephen and Richard,

Ufta is all I can say - (and I'm not Swedish either)... Stephen, I totally understand your frustration, because I have w r e s t l e d with the same issue ( The Lord and I that is...) trying to understand HIS MEANING of HIS WORDS in HIS WORD, namely Genesis 49 (the double blessing on Joseph but the staff is with JUDAH (my personal interpretation is that Judah is the Jewish People and Joseph is as I said in some other post the Catholic Church and Christians who - I pray and hope with you - will eventually understand their true roots because Jesus says in Matthew 10:6 : Go rather to the lost sheep of the HOUSE OF ISRAEL - and is it too hard for the LORD to call "HIS LOST SHEEP back into the fold - after all He says in the same chapter verse 22ff: You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever ENDURES TO THE END will be saved. When they persecute you in one town, flee to another, Amen, I say to you, you will NOT finish the towns of Israel before the SON OF MAN comes. - Followed by the chapters of "Courage under Persecution" and "Jesus: A Cause of Division") All fits very neatly together, including the other sheep that will also come into the fold.
Hello White!

Glad you stopped by for a chat. I agree that this issue is very very important, but I don't think I would use the verses you chose to settle it. When Christ commanded his disciples to "Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" that was before He went to the cross. After He was resurrected, He gave them a much broader commandment:


Matthew 28:18-20 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.And again in Acts from the mouth of Jesus:


Acts 1:8 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
And again from the mouth of Paul:


Acts 13:46-47 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
Now in answer to your question "is it too hard for the LORD to call "HIS LOST SHEEP back into the fold?" - the answer is "nothing is too hard for the Lord."

You said it "All fits very neatly together, including the other sheep that will also come into the fold." What are you saying "fits together"?


Of course, Ezekiel 37:15-28 - the two sticks : Judah ... and Joseph (the stifck of Ephraim = the House of Joseph in Genesis 49 - the WORD says the the TWO STICKS - THE TWO HOUSES will become ONE HOUSE (read verse 22: I will make them ONE NATION upon the LAND in the mountains of Israel, and there shall be ONE PRINCE (Y'SHUA HA-MASHIACH) for them all. NEVER again shall they be two nations, and never again shall they be divided into TWO KINGDOMS (JEWS and CHRISTIANS)
Sorry Richard, that's the only way I can read these passages at this point.
No need to apologize, my friend! Any point you can support with Scripture is GOLD in my book. So when I challenge your interpretations, please understand that I am hoping to bring us all - including myself - into a fuller understanding of God's Word. There is nothing for any of us to fear in this discussion. Nothing for us to lose but our pride in thinking we have "all the answers."

Now as for the interpretation of the two sticks: if it means what you think, then was not that prophecy already fulfilled when Christ went to the cross? The cross abolished the difference between "Jew and Gentile":


Ephesians 2:14-16 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
I have to big questions:

1) Why don't you believe that this Scripture shows that all prophecies of unity between Jew and Gentile are fulfilled in Yehoshua HaMeshiah?

2) Why do you think God is interested in setting up "earthly" kingdoms? He did, after all, say "My kingdom is not of this world."


How about : Jeremiah 31:22: to start : How long will you continue to stray, rebellious daughter? The LORD has created a NEW THING upon the earth; the woman must encompass the man (ISRAEL the woman - Y'SHUA the man)
How can you make this identification? What does it mean to say that Israel "encompassed" Jesus?


- 31-34 THE NEW COVENANT : The days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a NEW COVENANT with the House of Israel and the House of JUDAH. It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers the day I took them by the hand to lead them forth from the land of Egypt, for they BROKE MY COVENANT and I had to show myself their master, says the LORD. But THIS is the covenant which I will make with the HOUSE OF ISRAEL after those days, says the LORD . I will place my law within them, and write it upon their hearts, I will be their God and they shall be my people.
(34) No longer will they have need to teach their friends and kinsmen how to know the LORD, ALL, FROM LEAST TO GREATEST, shall know me, says the LORD, for I will fortgive their evildoing and remember their sin no more. Now that is promise worth hanging onto....
But we ALL know that was fulfilled by Jesus Christ two thousand years ago. Hebrews 8 explains it all in terms of the New Covenant = Christianity. How do you interpret Hebrews 8?


Of course ISAIAH 49:22 says the same thing in different words: Thus says the LORD GOD: See, I will lift up my hand to the nations, and raise my signal to the peoples; they shall bring your sons in their arms and your daughters shall be carried on their shoulders." and the last verse : "I will make your oppressors eat their own flesh, and they shall be drunk with their own blood as with the juice of the grape. ALL MANKIND shall know that I, THE LORD, am your savior, your redeemer, the mighty one of J A C O B ".

But lets go to ISAIAH 9:5-6 : For a child is born to us, a son is given us: upon his shoulder dominion rests. They name him Wonderful Counselor, Lord GOd, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. His dominion is vast and forever peaceful, from DAVID'S THRONE and over his kingdom, which he confirms and sustains by judgment and justice, both now and forever. But lets not quit here,
Are you saying these prophetcies were not fulfilled in Jesus Christ?


ISAIAH 11:1 : But a shoot shall sprout from the stump of Jesse, and from his roots a bud shall blossom. The Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, a Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, a Spirit of counsel and of strength, a Spirit of knowledge and of fear of the LORD and his delight shall be the Fear the LORD.... UNION OF EPHRAIM and JUDAH... esp. v. 11- 16, but 13 is huge: The envy of EPHRAIM shall pass away and the rivalry of JUDAH be removed; EPHRAIM shall not be jealous of JUDAH, and JUDAH shall not be hostile to EPHRAIMN, but they shall swoop down on the foothills of the Philistines to the west, together they shall plunder the Keedemites; Edom and Moab shall be their possessions, and the Ammonites their subjects. .... Translation: EPHRAIM (Catholics and Christians) JUDAH = JEWS, the others are the Arabs / Muslims / Philistines.

What do you mean by "UNION OF EPHRAIM AND JUDAH"? The prophecy is about JESUS CHRIST!


I got to run but keep reading the following :
Ezkiel 16:60-63, amazing passage, never heard anybody preach on ths
ISAIAH 4:1-6 about the NEW MILLENIUM - 7 woman (Church) / one man (JESUS)
and Isaiah 19:25 - etc I'll come back later.

Shalom to JERUSALEM and the HOLY LAND, see above
White

I agree that God uses the image of a "woman" to symbolize His people. But I don't think the teachings about the "MILLENNIUM" will stand biblical scrutiny.

I'm busy too. Gotta run. Talk more soon.

Richard

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Greetings, o Eater of Rich Pasture!

Nice one, bro! Let's see what gematrical magic we can cook up from the pages of Scripture for the edification of all. In private email exchanges between us in the past some really cool stuff always came up. I'm probably gonna come knocking at your door for a bit of assistance some time. I hear you're also in charge of the Graphics Department. It'll be just really basic stuff. I'm still in the Stone Age when it comes to this computer bizzo. You'll find me chiseling away my thoughts down at the quarry most days, enjoying bronto on toast with Barney Rubble and the crew.

Stephen
Ahh ... you're down in the mines actually digging out the diamonds, while I sit in my air conditioned shop polishing them. Life's not fair, is it? :lol:

Send me your ideas, and I'd love to help with the graphics. I am excited to study the properties of 37 cubed. As you know, I have studied the "holographic generating set" (27, 37, 73) and its sum = 137. The thing so interesting about that set is that the binary products map back into powers of ten times a member of the set +/- 1: e.g. 37 x 73 = 27 x 100 + 1. Cubes also map back into the set in a slightly different way. Well, I'm digressing ... I'll pick these ideas on the thread in the Gematria forum.

See ya there!

Richard

[White]

Hi Richard,

I'm back - Yes, all these scriptures point to Jesus / Y'SHUA as the unifier, the savior, the redeemer, the LORD, but in my humble opinion, it is so very clear
that in 2000 years Christian have not had a very successful "conversion" rate with the Jewish People. Somehow the message is not presented properly or as discussed earlier in this post, in Romans Chapter 11, God has blinded the Jewish People to Himself to accomplish all that He plans to accomplish before He removes the veil. That is why it is vital that all Christians really listen to the Guidance of the HOLY SPIRIT and when He says " GO HERE " or "GO THERE" that we obey His voice, and proclaim the GOOD NEWS of JESUS CHRIST who did die for all of us on the Cross to redeem all who believe in HIM from eternal damnation. "...for lack of knowlege My people shall die, how come you believers are so shy?" Let's NOT be shy!

On a miniscule scale GOD'S plan has been fulfilled as you keep stating, and that is correct. But GOD is much bigger than this small achievement. You know Richard, when the LORD sent me on my journey through the Messianic Hebrew Christian Church/Congregation to finally the ORTHODOX SYNAGOGUE, I would always encounter people who insisted that "their" truth or "their" way was the only way to Heaven.

I remember in 1998 I attended at the LORD's guidance a Hebrew Christian Congregation called SHALOM SCRIPTURE STUDIES, very small place, maybe 20 people, 4 of which were "Ministers". They followed the readings from the Synagogue but then added New Testament readings on Friday Night and Saturday night. The original Founder was a Jewish Man who accepted Y'SHUA as Lord and Savior. His name is Dr. Elias E. Hidalgo, Savannah, Georgia. I learned much at Shalom Scripture Studies, but when the leadership had a split over when the Jewish New Year starts - Rosh Hashanah or 14th Nissan - and the tiny congregration was divided depending on whatever position the person believed in, the Lord sent me to the Orthodox Synagogue in the same Neighborhood, where I had received the Mikveh in June of 1998. These people from Shalom S.S. were convinced that they were the only once who followed God's Plan and I would "argue" with the LORD that He had to be bigger than "that" mini congregation.

Of course, I'm in full agreement that JESUS is the only way to Heaven as HE says in John 14: 6 : "I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE, NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER BUT THROUGH ME." But how He accomplishes this,
is beyond me and it certainly looks bleak at times. But,then God says, nothing is impossible for Me, just believe - Faith and doubt cannot co-exist.
Thus I choose to believe HIM even if it is difficult at times.

Shalom to Jerusalem anf the Holy Land
White
Conc. ISAIAH 4 and the "new millenium" - we might have a different opinion on New Millenium" - for me it simply means that the Jews will finally understand that Jesus is LORD and they will take full responsibility for the 2000 years long rejection, but God will have mercy on them, forgive them and make them strong as in the days of old. Ezekiel 16:60-63 I believe speaks clearly abt this.
Enough for tonite
shalom - stay cool
White

Isaiah 1:18 is my verse and 1/18 is my daughters birthay! And to be WHITE AS SNOW IS MY GOAL!

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Richard,

I'm back - Yes, all these scriptures point to Jesus / Y'SHUA as the unifier, the savior, the redeemer, the LORD, but in my humble opinion, it is so very clear
that in 2000 years Christian have not had a very successful "conversion" rate with the Jewish People. Somehow the message is not presented properly or as discussed earlier in this post, in Romans Chapter 11, God has blinded the Jewish People to Himself to accomplish all that He plans to accomplish before He removes the veil. That is why it is vital that all Christians really listen to the Guidance of the HOLY SPIRIT and when He says " GO HERE " or "GO THERE" that we obey His voice, and proclaim the GOOD NEWS of JESUS CHRIST who did die for all of us on the Cross to redeem all who believe in HIM from eternal damnation. "...for lack of knowlege My people shall die, how come you believers are so shy?"
Hello my friend!

I am really glad that we can talk about these things as friends and "siblings" in the Lord! Our different views will help strengthen us as we work them out and so deepen our knowledge of God and His Word as we, the Body of Christ, "edifies itself in love."


On a miniscule scale GOD'S plan has been fulfilled as you keep stating, and that is correct. But GOD is much bigger than this small achievement.
I have never thought of Christ's accomplishment as "miniscule." I think I understand what you mean, but I would strongly recommend you choose different set of words. You are anticipating the world-wide transformation that the Bible describes as the "knowledge of the glory of the Lord" filling the earth "as the waters cover the sea," correct? That's great! I agree that will happen, and I beleive it will involve the conversion of the Jews. But I would never say that the work of Christ was "miniscule."


Of course, I'm in full agreement that JESUS is the only way to Heaven as HE says in John 14: 6 : "I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE, NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER BUT THROUGH ME." But how He accomplishes this, is beyond me and it certainly looks bleak at times. But,then God says, nothing is impossible for Me, just believe - Faith and doubt cannot co-exist. Thus I choose to believe HIM even if it is difficult at times.
And I choose to believe HIM and HIS WORD too. That's not the issue at hand. The issue is what His Word means. Fellow believers like you and me should be able to discuss it without it seeming "threatening" or eve "disturbing" since we both want nothing but deeper understanding and knowledge of God's Truth, correct?


Conc. ISAIAH 4 and the "new millenium" - we might have a different opinion on New Millenium" - for me it simply means that the Jews will finally understand that Jesus is LORD and they will take full responsibility for the 2000 years long rejection, but God will have mercy on them, forgive them and make them strong as in the days of old. Ezekiel 16:60-63 I believe speaks clearly abt this.
Enough for tonite
shalom - stay cool
White
Yah ... stay cool in the breeze of the Lord's Spirit!

I like the way you describe the "millennium." But I don't think you really know my opinion about it, because you and I have yet to sit by the quiet flame of God's Spirit and discuss it like friends. But we are getting closer to that goal, aren't we?

As for Ezek 16.60 - I can see why you would think that. The image of "younger sisters" corresponds well with Christians. Is that what you meant?


Isaiah 1:18 is my verse and 1/18 is my daughters birthay! And to br WHITE AS SNOW IS MY GOAL!

Yes, that is a wonderful verse. I thank Jesus for His blood that washes all believers "white as snow." And its a nice song too. :)

[Stephen]

Hi Richard!

Funny thing you should mention diamonds, since their crystal structure is essentially cubic, though I've never investigated the whys or wherefores of this phenomenon. It's twelve other precious stones that interest me more, though. They will eventually form part of the symbolic material on the NJ cube, over at the other thread.
Anyway, I'll leave off here and let this thread get :focus:

Stephen

[White]

Hi Richard and Stephen,

I do polish diamonds - huh ? - you didn't know? Daily! Yes, daily! With a polishing cloth... Got you! We are all diamonds in the rough ready for a facet here and there to bring out the Hearts and the Arrows of the perfect symmetry which will make us THE SUPER IDEAL DIAMOND.

Ez 16:60-63 - interesting verses - Muslims ( older sister because Isaac was Father Abraham's son with Hagar) - Jews in the middle - Christians (younger sister because of Father Abrahams "only son" as God called Isaac) such by birth order.

What's your interpretation of Isaiah 19:25 Richard? I explained my view in another thread before this one, remember?

Also: how about the promises in the Book of Genesis 15:18: To your descendants (Jews) I have given this land from the river of Egypt to the great river of Euphrates. And he (Ishmael) shall dwell in the presence of all the brethren (Jews & Christians believing and following Jesus) (Genesis 16:12)
After all Father Abraham asked for blessings for his son Ishmael, as well.
There are other verses, but I have no time right now to dig them up. It's Church time - let's pray for Peace to Jerusalem, Peace among Jews, Christians and Muslims with Jesus / Y'SHUA in the heart of all.
Amen. Amen. Amen.
Shalom
White

PS : I don't believe in the Rapture... and the typical Millenium - but more later

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Ez 16:60-63 - interesting verses - Muslims ( older sister because Isaac was Father Abraham's son with Hagar) - Jews in the middle - Christians (younger sister because of Father Abrahams "only son" as God called Isaac) such by birth order.
To understand the verse, we need to look at the context. It begins 60 verses earlier:


Ezekiel 16:1-3,6 Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 2 Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations, 3 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto Jerusalem; Thy birth and thy nativity is of the land of Canaan; thy father was an Amorite, and thy mother an Hittite. ... 6 And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live. 7 I have caused thee to multiply as the bud of the field, and thou hast increased and waxen great, and thou art come to excellent ornaments: thy breasts are fashioned, and thine hair is grown, whereas thou wast naked and bare.
Here we see God is chastising "Jerusalem" for her sins. He uses the metaphor of an abandoned baby that He found, saved, cleansed, nurtured, and blessed with many blessings.

But she rebelled. She abandoned God altogether and went after other "lovers" like an insatiabe whore with the Egyptians, the Assyrians, and everyone from Canaan to Chaldea!


Ezekiel 16:26-31 Thou hast also committed fornication with the Egyptians thy neighbours, great of flesh; and hast increased thy whoredoms, to provoke me to anger. ... 28 Thou hast played the whore also with the Assyrians, because thou wast unsatiable; yea, thou hast played the harlot with them, and yet couldest not be satisfied. 29 Thou hast moreover multiplied thy fornication in the land of Canaan unto Chaldea; and yet thou wast not satisfied herewith. 30 ¶ How weak is thine heart, saith the Lord GOD, seeing thou doest all these things, the work of an imperious whorish woman;
The list of the wickedness of Jerusalem goes on and on until God finally declares:


Ezekiel 16:38-39 And I will judge thee, as women that break wedlock and shed blood are judged; and I will give thee blood in fury and jealousy. 39 And I will also give thee into their hand, and they shall throw down thine eminent place, and shall break down thy high places: they shall strip thee also of thy clothes, and shall take thy fair jewels, and leave thee naked and bare.
God then continues the metaphor of a woman, and expands it by speaking of Samaria, the capital of wicked and idolatrous northern 10 tribes of Israel, as "her elder sister" and Sodom, the condemned city of wickedness, as "her younger sister":


Ezekiel 16:44-49 Behold, every one that useth proverbs shall use this proverb against thee, saying, As is the mother, so is her daughter. 45 Thou art thy mother's daughter, that lotheth her husband and her children; and thou art the sister of thy sisters, which lothed their husbands and their children: your mother was an Hittite, and your father an Amorite. 46 And thine elder sister is Samaria, she and her daughters that dwell at thy left hand: and thy younger sister, that dwelleth at thy right hand, is Sodom and her daughters. 47 Yet hast thou not walked after their ways, nor done after their abominations: but, as if that were a very little thing, thou wast corrupted more than they in all thy ways. 48 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters. Note that God is saying the sins of Jerusalem are worse than those of Sodom which God destroyed with fire and brimstone! And He goes on to say the sins of Samaria committed and for which she was destroyed from the Holy Land, were not half as bad as those of Jerusalem!

Finally, we come to the verses you quoted where God reveals His overwhelming mercy and immeasurable grace, saying:


Ezekiel 16:60-61 Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant. 61 Then thou shalt remember thy ways, and be ashamed, when thou shalt receive thy sisters, thine elder and thy younger: and I will give them unto thee for daughters, but not by thy covenant. So there it is - God Himself explicitly defined the two sisters as allegories for Samaria (elder) and Sodom (younger).

Now you feel that there is a "second level" allegory to be found here, where God intended us to understand Samaria as a symbol of the Muslims, and Sodom, the quintessential symbol of wickedness in the Bible, as representing Christians?

I don't think that is what God intended. If I know anything about God's symbolism in the Bible, I know that He does not use Sodom to represent those who have been cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ.

But on the other hand, I suppose you could be thinking that Sodom represents our condition before we were cleansed by Christ. In which case you may be able to make the symbolism work. But then all of this remains entirely speculative. The symbolism is not derived from the actual text of the Bible, so there is no way for us to know if your ideas are correct, and it seems your suggestion will remain a "private interpretation."

Richard

[White]

Hi Richard,
I like your thorough exposition of Scripture - and I agree that Ezekiel 16:60-63 is very unclear in many ways - I also was turning it around - older sister are Christians (since Christianity is older than Islam) and that would make more sense with SAMARIA being the older - Samaria is mentioned in the New Testament many times. Was not the woman at the well from Samaria - John 4:7-22 where Jesus states ...SALVATION IS FROM THE JEWS! -? and with Sodom being the younger sister (Arabs/Muslims)with Islam which only started with Mohammed in 622 AD - the description fitting better as well. I have been toying with both of those interpretation and I would definately put a (?) behind either one. It would be nice if the LORD would be clearer but then we could not have nice forums such as this.

So who are the Childrlen of God? Let's bring this all together. It is God's will as we understand it that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is simply not negotiable! Our Lord did what He did, and said what He said, and He does not change, no matter what culture we find ourselves in. This is the absolute Truth and there is no other. We cannot and will not "adapt" the Gospel message just to please one group or another, Jew or Muslim or Gentile or any other. And while we never want to be offensive in how we are presenting this one way in which men can be saved, the fact remains that we are admonished in Scripture – "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." (1 Corinthians 1:18). I like 1:18 - see Isaiah 1:18. And for those of you who do not know : the number "18" represents Life / Chaim in Judaism. A very good number. I'm sure Richard has a great link on this number.

But back to our conversation.
In the end, our job is to tell people the truth, and then to leave the reaction to our presentation of the Gospel–and the results–to the Person of God the Holy Spirit. When you really think about it, this is not such a bad thing; after all, it is God’s Gospel, Christ did the work and the Holy Spirit will convict or empower, depending on the person whose soul is at stake. Don't forget: we are our Lord’s messengers. Let's be careful. Jesus Christ crucified... justification by God's grace alone, through faith in His only begotten SON JESUS CHRIST - our Redeemer lives.
And this must never be compromised in any way, or for any one, no matter how noble and religious that person may appear. JESUS CHRIST DIED ON THE CROSS AND ROSE ON THE THIRD DAY as the Nicene Creed says so clearly. Muslims belief in ONE GOD but not OUR GOD and we pray for our "elder Brethren, the Jews" to accept that GOD HAS A SON and that HIS NAME IS JESUS / Y'SHUA (Prov. 30:4 : "Who has gone up to heaven and come down again - who has cupped the wind in his hands? who has bound up the waters in a cloak- who has marked out all the ends of the earth? What is HIS NAME, what is HIS SON'S NAME, if you know it? (5) Every word of GOD is tested; HE is a shield to those who take refuge in HIM. (6) Add nothing to HIS words, lest HE reprove you, and you be exposed as a deceiver". And for those of us who are Christ’s ambassadors to tell the world anything else is to hold out a false hope; Christ is our Hope and in Him shall we glory.

God who stands and speaks is our God who stays: He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow (Hebrew 13:8) May the God of Peace who brought up from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep by the blood of the eternal covenant, Jesus our LORD, furnish you with all that is good, that you may do his will. " Hebrews 13:20-21,

May we continue to pray for Peace to Jerusalem and the HOLY LAND and our Nation, may the LORD our GOD bless, protect, provide and guide. Shalom!
Amen.
White


PS: About the miniscule - what I meant of course is not that Christ's sacrifice was miniscule - but that the 2000 years of Christianity have had a "miniscule" effect on our elder brethren - the Jews. You keep saying that God's plan has been achieved and I keep saying "there is more to come"... like the Jewish People accepting JESUS / Y'SHUA as their Messiah and singing a new song to the LORD. Chapter Isaiah 11 is a clear indication of that event happening - or course the shoot is JESUS - my Bible actually states the following for verses 6 -9 "This picture of the idyllic harmony of paradise is a dramatic symbol of the UNIVERSAL PEACE AND JUSTICE OF MESSIANIC TIMES. See also Isaiah 2:2-5 . The Union of Ephraim and Judah, Richard is stated without hidden symbols - Isaiah 11:12-16 : He shall raise a signal to the nations and gather the outcasts of Israel; the dispersed of Judah he shall assemble from the four corners of the earth. The envy of Ephraim shall pass away, and the rivalry of Judah be removed. Ephraim shall not be jealous of Judah, and Judah shall not be hostile to Ephraim. But they shall swoop down on the foothills of the Philistines to the west, together they shall plunder the Kedemites; Edom and Moab shall be their possessions, and the Ammonites their subjects. The LORD shall dry up the tongue of the Sea of Egypt, and wave his hand oVer the Euphrates in his fierce anger and shatter it into seven streamlets, so that it can be crossed in sandals. THERE SHALL BE A HIGHWAY FOR THE REMNANT OF HIS PEOPLE THAT IS LEFT FROM ASSYRIA, AS THERE WAS FOR ISRAEL WHEN HE CAME UP FROM THE LAND OF EGYPT." I like to read this that JUDAH is representing the Jewish People and EPHRAIM is the Catholic Church and Christians as stated before and together - JEWS & CHRISTIANS - they shall no longer envie each other, but swoop down on the Arabs/Muslim/Islam. Does this not make sense : When the Jews accept Y'SHUA as Messiah, Islam/Muslims will have to rethink their strategy of submission to God and hopefully stop killing and convert instead to the GOD OF PEACE - JESUS CHRIST - Y'SHUA HA-MASHIACH. That's what I have been praying for daily - since 1998.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Richard,
I like your thorough exposition of Scripture - and I agree that Ezekiel 16:60-63 is very unclear in many ways - I also was turning it around - older sister are Christians (since Christianity is older than Islam) and that would make more sense with SAMARIA being the older
Hi White,

I found it odd that Sodom was called the "younger sister" since it was destroyed before Israel entered the promised land, before there was a tribe of Judah in Jerusalem or a capital of the Ten Tribes called "Samaria"!

So I looked at the Hebrew, and it turns out that the literal Hebrew translated as "older" and "younger" is gadol (greater) and qatan (smaller). So the verse literally refers to Samaria as the "greater sister" and Sodom as the "smaller sister." That makes much better sense, given the contradictions when those words are interpreted as time indicators.


- Samaria is mentioned in the New Testament many times. Was not the woman at the well from Samaria - John 4:7-22 where Jesus states ...SALVATION IS FROM THE JEWS! -? and with Sodom being the younger sister (Arabs/Muslims)with Islam which only started with Mohammed in 622 AD - the description fitting better as well. I have been toying with both of those interpretation and I would definately put a (?) behind either one. It would be nice if the LORD would be clearer but then we could not have nice forums such as this.
Maybe that's why God left some question marks ... so we would all have something to talk about while waiting for His return! :lol:


So who are the Childrlen of God? Let's bring this all together. It is God's will as we understand it that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is simply not negotiable!
Amen to that!


Our Lord did what He did, and said what He said, and He does not change, no matter what culture we find ourselves in. This is the absolute Truth and there is no other. We cannot and will not "adapt" the Gospel message just to please one group or another, Jew or Muslim or Gentile or any other. And while we never want to be offensive in how we are presenting this one way in which men can be saved, the fact remains that we are admonished in Scripture – "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." (1 Corinthians 1:18). I like 1:18 - see Isaiah 1:18. And for those of you who do not know : the number "18" represents Life / Chaim in Judaism. A very good number. I'm sure Richard has a great link on this number.
Sure do ... and it starts off with the words "The primary significance of the Number 18 is Life." Here's the link: http://www.biblewheel.com/gr/gr_18.asp


But back to our conversation.
In the end, our job is to tell people the truth, and then to leave the reaction to our presentation of the Gospel–and the results–to the Person of God the Holy Spirit. When you really think about it, this is not such a bad thing; after all, it is God’s Gospel, Christ did the work and the Holy Spirit will convict or empower, depending on the person whose soul is at stake. Don't forget: we are our Lord’s messengers. Let's be careful. Jesus Christ crucified... justification by God's grace alone, through faith in His only begotten SON JESUS CHRIST - our Redeemer lives.
Very well stated! It makes all the difference when we remember we are only messengers, and that the real issue is always between the person and God, who will work in their hearts.


And this must never be compromised in any way, or for any one, no matter how noble and religious that person may appear. JESUS CHRIST DIED ON THE CROSS AND ROSE ON THE THIRD DAY as the Nicene Creed says so clearly. Muslims belief in ONE GOD but not OUR GOD and we pray for our "elder Brethren, the Jews" to accept that GOD HAS A SON and that HIS NAME IS JESUS / Y'SHUA (Prov. 30:4 : "Who has gone up to heaven and come down again - who has cupped the wind in his hands? who has bound up the waters in a cloak- who has marked out all the ends of the earth? What is HIS NAME, what is HIS SON'S NAME, if you know it? (5) Every word of GOD is tested; HE is a shield to those who take refuge in HIM. (6) Add nothing to HIS words, lest HE reprove you, and you be exposed as a deceiver". And for those of us who are Christ’s ambassadors to tell the world anything else is to hold out a false hope; Christ is our Hope and in Him shall we glory.
On the lines of the verse you quoted ... it has the most amazing alphanumeric structure that answers its own questions:

Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? = 3030 (http://www.biblewheel.com/gr/gr_3030.asp) = The Son of Man!

What is His name (Mah Shemu) = 391 (http://www.biblewheel.com/GR/GR_391.asp) = Yehoshua (Jesus)

What is His Son's name (Mah Shem Benu) = 443 (http://www.biblewheel.com/GR/GR_443.asp) = Ho Logos (The Word)

The second identity is one of the reasons I strongly prefer Yehoshua as the full and correct Hebrew name of Jesus.


PS: About the miniscule - what I meant of course is not that Christ's sacrifice was miniscule - but that the 2000 years of Christianity have had a "miniscule" effect on our elder brethren - the Jews. You keep saying that God's plan has been achieved and I keep saying "there is more to come"... like the Jewish People accepting JESUS / Y'SHUA as their Messiah and singing a new song to the LORD.
I was pretty sure that you meant something like that. I was just being my same old self that is very picky about words that carry connotations, and in some ears, the use of "miniscule" would clash. And of course, it gives us a chance to talk about our mutual understanding which is always helpful. :)

Now as for the BIG QUESTION about the future of "ethnic Israel" - (that seems to be a good term for them, better than "fleshly Israel") - I've been reading John Piper's exegesis of Romans 9 called "The Justification of God" and I have learned a lot and been very humbled by it. As it turns out, many scholars are stumped by the apparent contradiction between Romans 9 which says Israel is the Church and Romans 11 which talks about a future restoration of ethnic Israel. And when I say "stumped" I mean ...

:confused2::confused: STUMPED! :confused::confused2:

Some of them say it is an irreconcilable contradiction and then they write big books about how did Romans 9-11 get in the Bible anyway?, etc, and so forth mumble babble blah blah :blah:

So in reading about the scholastic confusion that remains after centuries of discussion, I have learned that I have been too "strongly opinionated" on this point, and that the reason for our differences lies primarily in the fact that there are two portions of Scripture that emphasize very different aspects of the relation between Israel and the Church, and that its NOT a simple issue, so none of us should be too dogmatic or too "sensitive to criticism" since even Paul called this a "mystery" (Rom 11:25) ... and so we should tread softly when discussing it. Yes?

Of course, I still have my opinions. And I will be happy to share them with you!


Chapter Isaiah 11 is a clear indication of that event happening - or course the shoot is JESUS - my Bible actually states the following for verses 6 -9 "This picture of the idyllic harmony of paradise is a dramatic symbol of the UNIVERSAL PEACE AND JUSTICE OF MESSIANIC TIMES.
Yes, of course that is a possible interpretation. But why "Messianic times" instead of "Heavenly Eternal Kingdom times" or "The Times when Christ rules in the hearts of people" as He does now in your heart and my heart in the Church Age? I think this is the primary value of all our talking. We all need to see that our own opinions are not the "whole picture." And believe you me, I include "me" in the "we".


See also Isaiah 2:2-5 . The Union of Ephraim and Judah, Richard is stated without hidden symbols - Isaiah 11:12-16 : He shall raise a signal to the nations and gather the outcasts of Israel; the dispersed of Judah he shall assemble from the four corners of the earth. The envy of Ephraim shall pass away, and the rivalry of Judah be removed. Ephraim shall not be jealous of Judah, and Judah shall not be hostile to Ephraim. But they shall swoop down on the foothills of the Philistines to the west, together they shall plunder the Kedemites; Edom and Moab shall be their possessions, and the Ammonites their subjects. The LORD shall dry up the tongue of the Sea of Egypt, and wave his hand oVer the Euphrates in his fierce anger and shatter it into seven streamlets, so that it can be crossed in sandals. THERE SHALL BE A HIGHWAY FOR THE REMNANT OF HIS PEOPLE THAT IS LEFT FROM ASSYRIA, AS THERE WAS FOR ISRAEL WHEN HE CAME UP FROM THE LAND OF EGYPT." I like to read this that JUDAH is representing the Jewish People and EPHRAIM is the Catholic Church and Christians as stated before and together - JEWS & CHRISTIANS - they shall no longer envie each other, but swoop down on the Arabs/Muslim/Islam. Does this not make sense : When the Jews accept Y'SHUA as Messiah, Islam/Muslims will have to rethink their strategy of submission to God and hopefully stop killing and convert instead to the GOD OF PEACE - JESUS CHRIST - Y'SHUA HA-MASHIACH. That's what I have been praying for daily - since 1998.

I understand your interpretation, and there may be something to it. But I am confused because you began by saying that there were no "hidden symbols" by which I thought you meant it was talking about literal Judah and literal Ephraim, but then you said that Judah represents the Jews and Ephraim the Catholics and Christians, which is not a literal view at all.

Anyway, I must say how happy I am that our conversation is continuing to grow and to deepen and that it is leading to the peaceable fruit of mutual understanding.

God bless you my sister!

Richard

[White]

Hey Richard -
You are so right - I knew you had some link to Chain = "18"

We learn every single time - did you ever notice that the controversy as you explained Romans Chapter 9 - 11 is from GOD, especially since 9/11 - GOD is into numbers as we all know. Kind of pointing to an important part of Scripture - Romans Chapter 9 - 11. So we do have to figure it out somehow, but not having anything new at this point and with so many "learned" scholars debating the issue without any agreement, I'm going to leave this alone for a while... it is a mystery and maybe it is to keep us on our toes... God works in mysterious ways, especially when he can STUMP Richard the great - Anyway, how did you learn all that Hebrew? Do you actually speak it? You obviously know how to read it ? How many times have you been to Israel? You are a deep well of knowledge. Honored to be your friend.

Shalom,
White

PS: You "stole" my bible verse (Isaiah 1:18) but my very first WHITE AS SNOW verse is Psalm 51:7 : "Wash me and I shall be whiter than snow"
How do I put this at the bottom of my posts?

[joel]

Now as for the BIG QUESTION about the future of "ethnic Israel" - (that seems to be a good term for them, better than "fleshly Israel") - I've been reading John Piper's exegesis of Romans 9 called "The Justification of God" and I have learned a lot and been very humbled by it. As it turns out, many scholars are stumped by the apparent contradiction between Romans 9 which says Israel is the Church and Romans 11 which talks about a future restoration of ethnic Israel. And when I say "stumped" I mean ...

STUMPED!


Richard, your example is to be commended.
Grace, and peace, and joy be multipied to you and to your family.

Joel

[Stephen]

Hi Richard!

Yes, I concur with Joel that your example is to be commended.

As stated, I am not prepared to get back into this discussion of ethnic Israel, as I would prefer to donate my energies to the subject of gematria; in particular, explication of the NJ cube. In this respect, the gematrical examples you have highlighted from Proverbs 30:4 are truly remarkable. Like you, I prefer the name Yehoshua to Yeshua, and probably for much the same reasons. We know from Scripture that they are both interchangeable, but the former has a much more interesting gematria value. The full spelling is also interesting, having a value of 397, which is hexagonal, forming part of the reflective numerical complex of hexagon - triangle - hexagram as 397 - 595 - 793.

Anyway, I've forgotten what the subject of this thread is, so I'll let you all get :focus:

God bless,

Stephen

[yinonyavo]

Richard, blessings to you for your reconcideration.........there seems to be few in the "middle ground" camp who leave room for both sides of the question. We all tend to be too dogmatic one way or the other, and though I lean towards the "two house" interpretation (after a long road of inquiry), I have found many in that camp to have gone overboard in the legalistic direction. I therefore gerally tend to shy away from the debate......but I guess we all easily fall into the "dogmatic" thing somewhere along the line. You could always out "debate" me I think, and I very much respect your opinions, so I resorted to prayer on this subject....that the HS would enlighten us all to his truth.

I would ask you to elaborate on your statement:

but then you said that Judah represents the Jews and Ephraim the Catholics and Christians, which is not a literal view at all.

Judah = Jews is not literal?

As to Ephraim = Christians .....
Ephraim was specifically prophesied by Hosea to mix himself with all nations and become "not a people".....i.e. Gentile. The Jews of Christ's time considered them so and called them Greeks or Gentiles, as I posted elsewhere:


Joh 7:35 Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?

διασπορά Transliteration diaspora - Thayer's Lexicon states this is used only of Israelites or Christian Israelites who are scattered. Note they are called GENTILES by the disciples in this verse. Actually the Greek word here is Helen, meaning the Greeks, which the Jews equated with Gentiles.

JOHN CALVIN on this verse:
Will he go to the dispersion of the Greeks? It is well known that the Jews gave the name of Greeks to all nations beyond the sea; but they do not mean that Christ will go to the uncircumcised nations, but to the Jews, who were dispersed through the various countries of the world. For the word dispersion would not apply to those who are natives of the place, and who inhabit their native soil, but applies well to the Jews, who were fugitives and exiles. Thus Peter inscribes his First Epistle parepidhmoiv diasporav to the strangers of the dispersion, that is, to the strangers who are scattered {1} through Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, (#1Pe 1:1); and James salutes the twelve tribes en th diaspora, in the dispersion, that is, scattered abroad, (#Jas 1:1). The meaning of the words therefore is, "Will he cross the sea, to go to Jews who dwell in a world unknown to us?"

CLARK's COMMENTARY: Verse 35. The dispersed among the Gentiles Or Greeks. By the dispersed, are meant here the Jews who were scattered through various parts of that empire which Alexander the Great had founded, in Greece, Syria, Egypt, and Asia Minor, where the Greek language was used, and where the Jewish Scriptures in the Greek version of the Septuagint were read. Others suppose that the Gentiles themselves are meant—others, that the ten tribes which had been long lost are here intended.

GENEVA COMMENTARY: Literally, "to the dispersion of the Gentiles" or "Greeks", and under the name of the Greeks he refers to the Jews who were dispersed among the Gentiles.

Both Peter and James call the scattered tribes by the same term "diaspora":

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus <2424> Christ , to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad <1290>, greeting.
1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,to the strangers <3927> scattered <1290> throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia....

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hey Richard -
You are so right - I knew you had some link to Chain = "18"
Hallo my friend!

I know you meant "Chai" (Life) = 18. I'm noting it here for others who might not know Hebrew.


We learn every single time - did you ever notice that the controversy as you explained Romans Chapter 9 - 11 is from GOD, especially since 9/11 - GOD is into numbers as we all know. Kind of pointing to an important part of Scripture - Romans Chapter 9 - 11. So we do have to figure it out somehow, but not having anything new at this point and with so many "learned" scholars debating the issue without any agreement, I'm going to leave this alone for a while... it is a mystery and maybe it is to keep us on our toes... God works in mysterious ways,
I think that's a good idea. I feel like laying it down for a while too. Now that we've "tilled the soil" and turned up a lot of "fresh earth" who knows what new insights are going to pop up? I have feeling we may soon be blessed with a deep and full understanding of God's real meaning in Rom 9-11.


Anyway, how did you learn all that Hebrew? Do you actually speak it? You obviously know how to read it ? How many times have you been to Israel? You are a deep well of knowledge. Honored to be your friend.

Shalom,
White
How did I learn Hebrew? Its a long story that I hope to find time to tell soon, but the micro-version is that God gave me a series of powerful dreams that led into the study of gematria and the symbolism of the Hebrew letters back in 1990. I have diligently studied it since then. I haven't studied modern Hebrew and don't speak it, but I can understand Biblical Hebrew very well when its spoken clearly, as in the audio files of the Tanakh available online. And I can open the Tanakh and read any page and get most of it without using a dictionary.

I have not been to Israel, but have long wanted to go. All in God's timing. Maybe he wanted me to get a little clearer view of the relation between saved and ethnic Israel first. :lol:

I am honored to be your friend too. God has done a great thing by giving us this forum to learn from each other.


PS: You "stole" my bible verse (Isaiah 1:18) but my very first WHITE AS SNOW verse is Psalm 51:7 : "Wash me and I shall be whiter than snow"
What are you talking about? That verse is MINE, ALL MINE!

:cow:



How do I put this at the bottom of my posts?
Its very simple. If you look at the top of the page you are on, you will see User CP on the left end of the menu bar. Click it, and you will be taken to your "User Control Panel." Then you will see a link called "Edit Signature" at the top of the menu bar on the left. Click that, and you can put anything you want in your signature.

[White]

Hey Richard, my friend :yo:

So we have another thing in common - besides JESUS - the LORD started to work with me on 9/21/1996 when HE gave me my first poem - GOD IS LOVE - but then later on HE started to give me also dreams and visions and signs and wonders, thus my walk with the HOLY SPIRIT to Kenesseth Israel Congreagtion - Orthodox - back to the Catholic Church in 1999 - :D

This year YOM KIPPUR starts on 9/21/2007! (Friday evening) and Saturday - 9/22/2007 - and Just because I'm into numbers and so are you : HEBREWS 9:22 : ACCORDING TO THE LAW ALMOST EVERYTHING IS PURIFIED BY BLOOD, AND WITHOUT THE SHEDDING OF BLOOD THERE IS NO FORGIVENESS". The reading in the Synagogue is Genesis 22 - sacrifice of Isaac / Ram - and the entire book of JONAH - - more on that in the JONAH thread in a while. Just looking a few days ahead....

I have never been to Israel either - o home sweet home - one day we shall meet - and proclaim what Jesus said in Mark 12:29-31 :
Sh'ma Yisrael Adonai Elohayny Adonai Echad, Vey-ah-hahv-ta Et Adonai Elo-hey-cha Beh-chol Leh-vahv-cha Ooh-veh-chol Naf-sh-cha U-veh-chol Mah-da-ah-cha Ooh-veh-chol Mey-oh-dsh-cha: Zoht Hee Ha-mitz-vah Ha-re-sh-nah. Veh-ha-sheh-nit Ha-doh-mah- Lah Hee Ve-ah-hahv-tah Leh-rey-eh-cha- Kah-moh-kha. :thumb:

Translation : Hear O Israel; The LORD our GOD is one LORD; And you shall love the LORD your GOD with all your heart, and with all your soul and with all your mind, and with all your strength, this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, You shall love your neighbour as yourself. Amen
and Amen, brother and neighbor.

SHalom to Jerusalem and the Holy Land :pray::pray::pray:
Peace and Blessings for all people
especially those hostages from South Korea
and the missing in the Bridge Collapse in Minneapolis/MN :pray::pray::pray:

White
Mpls/MN

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Richard, blessings to you for your reconcideration.........there seems to be few in the "middle ground" camp who leave room for both sides of the question. We all tend to be too dogmatic one way or the other, and though I lean towards the "two house" interpretation (after a long road of inquiry), I have found many in that camp to have gone overboard in the legalistic direction. I therefore gerally tend to shy away from the debate......but I guess we all easily fall into the "dogmatic" thing somewhere along the line.
Yeah - most folks who lean towards the "two house" view acknowledge that its almost impossible for many folks to avoid falling into legalism. I'm thinking of Brother Bob's input on this issue.


You could always out "debate" me I think,
I pray my "debating skills" never exceed my love for truth! That is a real danger. Skill with words can be abused to cloud the truth (to suit one's preconceptions) rather than to display it. That is not only a great sin, but also an extreme loss for all people involved.


... so I resorted to prayer on this subject....that the HS would enlighten us all to his truth.
I join you in that prayer. :pray:


I would ask you to elaborate on your statement:

but then you said that Judah represents the Jews and Ephraim the Catholics and Christians, which is not a literal view at all.

Judah = Jews is not literal?
Hah! Good catch, and a funny one. That was a silly mistake I fell into because I was thinking only of the second half about Ephraim as a symbol of Christians.


As to Ephraim = Christians .....

Ephraim was specifically prophesied by Hosea to mix himself with all nations and become "not a people".....i.e. Gentile. The Jews of Christ's time considered them so and called them Greeks or Gentiles, as I posted elsewhere:

Do you recall where I can find what you "posted elsewhere"? Is this the verse you are talking about?


Hosea 9:17 My God will cast them away, because they did not hearken unto him: and they shall be wanderers among the nations.

I wonder if becoming "wanderers among the Gentiles is the same as "becoming Gentiles." But I do think it true that they "became as Gentiles" because they forgot who they were and intermarried with the Gentiles, but is that not a very different thing than saying that Gentile believers are represented by Ephraim in Scripture? Do you think there is a solid biblical support for that idea?

Its also curious that Hosea said "My God will cast them away." How do we interpret that in light of Paul's statement that God didn't do that?

Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Questions, questions! Thank God for His Answer!


2 Corinthians 1:19-22 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea. For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us. 21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; 22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

[yinonyavo]

Richard....I included the "elsewhere" post in quotes above....but here it is again:


Joh 7:35 Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?

διασπορά Transliteration diaspora - Thayer's Lexicon states this is used only of Israelites or Christian Israelites who are scattered. Note they are called GENTILES by the disciples in this verse. Actually the Greek word here is Helen, meaning the Greeks, which the Jews equated with Gentiles.

JOHN CALVIN on this verse:
Will he go to the dispersion of the Greeks? It is well known that the Jews gave the name of Greeks to all nations beyond the sea; but they do not mean that Christ will go to the uncircumcised nations, but to the Jews, who were dispersed through the various countries of the world. For the word dispersion would not apply to those who are natives of the place, and who inhabit their native soil, but applies well to the Jews, who were fugitives and exiles. Thus Peter inscribes his First Epistle parepidhmoiv diasporav to the strangers of the dispersion, that is, to the strangers who are scattered {1} through Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, (#1Pe 1:1); and James salutes the twelve tribes en th diaspora, in the dispersion, that is, scattered abroad, (#Jas 1:1). The meaning of the words therefore is, "Will he cross the sea, to go to Jews who dwell in a world unknown to us?"

CLARK's COMMENTARY: Verse 35. The dispersed among the Gentiles Or Greeks. By the dispersed, are meant here the Jews who were scattered through various parts of that empire which Alexander the Great had founded, in Greece, Syria, Egypt, and Asia Minor, where the Greek language was used, and where the Jewish Scriptures in the Greek version of the Septuagint were read. Others suppose that the Gentiles themselves are meant—others, that the ten tribes which had been long lost are here intended.

GENEVA COMMENTARY: Literally, "to the dispersion of the Gentiles" or "Greeks", and under the name of the Greeks he refers to the Jews who were dispersed among the Gentiles.

Both Peter and James call the scattered tribes by the same term "diaspora":

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus <2424> Christ , to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad <1290>, greeting.
1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,to the strangers <3927> scattered <1290> throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia....


Here are the other verses:

Ho 7:8 Ephraim, he hath mixed himself among the people; Ephraim is a cake not turned.

Ho 2:23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.

Zech 10:7-9 And they of Ephraim shall be like a mighty man, and their heart shall rejoice as through wine: yea, their children shall see it, and be glad; their heart shall rejoice in the LORD. I will hiss for them, and gather them; for I have redeemed them: and they shall increase as they have increased. And I will sow them among the people: and they shall remember me in far countries; and they shall live with their children, and turn again.

GENEVA BIBLE FOOTNOTES:10:9 And I will {k} sow them among the people: and they shall remember me in far countries; and they shall live with their children, and {l} turn again.
(k) Though they will yet be scattered and seem to be lost, yet it will be profitable to them: for there they will come to the knowledge of my name, which was accomplished under the Gospel, among whom it was first preached.
(l) Not that they would return into their country, but be gathered and joined in one faith by the doctrine of the Gospel.

Mic 5:7 And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Richard....I included the "elsewhere" post in quotes above....but here it is again:
Thanks for the repeat. I got so much going on its too easy to forget what's where. I also have really bad allergies this week. Something blooms in Yakima in August that always makes me very bleary eyed and stuffed nose and clogged brain.

That is a very interesting commentary. I didn't know that the dispersed Jews were called "Greeks." The quotes are very helpful, thank you!


Here are the other verses:

Ho 7:8 Ephraim, he hath mixed himself among the people; Ephraim is a cake not turned.

Ho 2:23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.
This is a primary key to understand Romans 9. Hosea 2:23 uses exactly the same word as Exodus 33:19 "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy." The word is ורחמתי (v'rachmati, and I will have mercy), from the root racham. This seems very significant because Paul quotes both Exodus and Hosea in Romans 9.


Zech 10:7-9 And they of Ephraim shall be like a mighty man, and their heart shall rejoice as through wine: yea, their children shall see it, and be glad; their heart shall rejoice in the LORD. I will hiss for them, and gather them; for I have redeemed them: and they shall increase as they have increased. And I will sow them among the people: and they shall remember me in far countries; and they shall live with their children, and turn again.

GENEVA BIBLE FOOTNOTES:10:9 And I will {k} sow them among the people: and they shall remember me in far countries; and they shall live with their children, and {l} turn again.
(k) Though they will yet be scattered and seem to be lost, yet it will be profitable to them: for there they will come to the knowledge of my name, which was accomplished under the Gospel, among whom it was first preached.
(l) Not that they would return into their country, but be gathered and joined in one faith by the doctrine of the Gospel.

Mic 5:7 And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men.
Well, when I look at the context of these verses, it is not clear that they are talking about a literal future event. Its something I really need to spend some time in prayerful reading of the word. Thanks for the verses - they help show me what to look for.

Richard

[White]

Romans
9:15
I will show mercy to whom I will, I will take piety on whom I will

9:16
So it depends not on the person's will or exertion, but upon God who shows mercy.

9:18
Consequently he has mercy on whom He wills, and he hardens whom he wills.


It is obvious by these verses that God's ways are higher than our ways as the Heavens are above the Earth. But what we can be sure of is that our GOD - the LORD JESUS CHRIST - is a God of Love, a God of Mercy, a God of Forgiveness, a God of Second Chances, a God of Unconditional Love calling us to serve HIM and HIM alone, to make HIM our Number One.

Now you remember Richard, I asked you how to put a Signature on my posts and you "stole" my real verse, ok, ok, I know, it's all yours... ISAIAH 1:18 (Remember my story is about being "white as snow" and my daughter's birthday is on 1/18 therefore it still IS MY FAVORITE VERSE, but you can "borrow" it) so now I had to look for another verse. Besides Psalm 51:7 which the LORD showed me on 7/22/1996 - "Wash me and I'll be whiter than snow" -

So yesterday I thought of HEBREWS 9:22 - see below - obviously thinking of YOM KIPPUR which falls on 9/22 this year and I followed your instructions and put it up as my "signature". And guess what ? Remember I like signs from the LORD ? My reading today (I usually go up "cold" without preparation) at Our Lady of the Lake Catholic Church was from LEVITICUS 25:1ff about the Sabbatical Year verses 1-7, the Jubilee Year verse 8ff and here it states: "Seven weeks of years shall you count - seven times seven years - so that the seven cycles amount ot forty-nine years. Then on the 10th day of the seventh month let the trumpet resound; on this, the DAY OF ATONEMENT, = YOM KIPPUR = the trumpet blast shall re-echo througout our land... the reading even touched on the redemption of Property... Wow, that was a nice confirmation from the LORD, on this Sabbath Morning -

The text about the "seven cycles" kind of jumped out at me because I just read a book by Jeffrey A. Manty with the title PROPHECY CODE - A revelation for the Last Days - the number 2520 is the significant number connecting past to present for instance : 587 BC (destruction of Temple) + 2520 Lunar Years = 1897 = in Basle, France (the author is wrong on this, Basle Switzerland (my home country) not France), on the date of September 3, that Theodore Herzl convened the first Zionist congress, founding the Zionist organization. In his diary, Herzl wrote, "At Basle I founded the Jewish state." In 1897 "The Jewish State" was published which eventually lead to the Jewish State Israel in 1948 ...

The author then connects the number 1948 to 536 BC = again 2520 Lunar years

and 1967 to 517 BC = again 2520 Lunar years

and 2039 to 444 BC = again 2520 Lunar years

And I quote from his book page 76 - The Real Millennium

"Nevertheless, let us reset God's time clock to the proper hour by adding 2000 years from the death of Jesus (AD 32) hence we arrive at the year 2032, or the bonafide year 2000 (the author claims we should be in the year 1975 by Lunar years). But wait - we still have Daniel's seventh "week" or the literal 2520 days to account for, called the Revelation of Jesus Christ (Rev. 1:1). Therefore, the actual millennium cannot begin until seven years later, when the literal 2520 days have run their course at His Second Coming, or the year 2039". ???

Then the Author takes the 9 Branch Menorah - from left to right - from outside to inside the difference is 2520 lunar years

BC **********************************Christ *******************************AD
587 BC *** 536 BC *** 517 BC *** 444 BC ***** + *****2039 AD *** 1967 AD *** 1948 AD *** 1897 AD ***

go to "www.prophecycodebook.com for a link to his book and graphics.. quite interesting ... but still not 100&#37; in my opinion - not even close
"My ways are higher than your ways..." the authors name is Jeffrey A. Manty, 5311 Anderlie Lane, White Bear Lake, MN 55110 - (it's in the book) and he connects Lucifer's hidden Name to "Alah" or "Allah"... definately worth reading... to understand the Islamic threat

When I googled "2520 lunar years" interesting information came up, even the destruction of America in 2008, 3rd World War, etc.
but I personally belief that when GOD'S PEOPLE PRAY, stay on their knees, and turn from their wicked ways, GOD will give us another chance - but WE MUST PRAY - that means all who believe that JESUS CHRIST is our LORD & SAVIOR - and that is corporate prayer (with a Church, Synagogue etc.) and individual prayer. We will not be able to advert disaster unless we choose GOD'S FAVORITE WEAPON : PRAYER !!! So let us all commit special prayer time even starting this day - Saturday/Sabbath - and every day. There is a special place I go for prayer, upto 7 times a week - in front of the Eucharist in Perpetual Eucharistic Adoration Chapels which are established around the world in many Catholic Churches (we have 37 Perpetual Eucharistic Adoration Chapels in Minnesota - prayer 24/7/ 365 days of the year minus Good Friday - Easter Sunday) - A very powerful Prayertime with our LORD and Savior JESUS CHRIST) - So let us all find time to pray according to 2 Chronicles 7:12-16 ; the LORD appeared to Solomon during the night and said to him: "I have heard your prayer, and I have chosen this place for my house of sacrifice. If I close Heaven so that there is no rain, if I command the locust to devour the land, if I send pestilence among my people, and if my people upon whom my name has been pronounced, humble themselves and pray, and seek my presence and turn from their evil ways, I will hear them from heaven and pardon their sins and REVIVE THEIR LAND. Now my eyes shall be open and my ears attentive to the prayer of this place. And now I have chosen and consecrated this house that my name may be there forever; my eyes and my heart also shall be there always."

Amen and Amen.
Shabbat Shalom to Jerusalem, the Holy Land, AMerica, all of us, esp. thank your Richard for your hard work on HIS behalf...
Shalom to the Korean Hostages
Shalom to the Victims of the Bridge collapse in MN
Shalom in our hearts, minds, bodies and souls with JESUS CHRIST as LORD AND SAVIOR
White

[Stephen]

Greetings All!

Just wanna jump in on the thing about Basel, which is most definitely in Switzerland. I lived there! The thing that really impressed me about this date of 1897 was that somebody wrote about this year being significant for Jewry before the events of that year took place.

The writer was, in fact, of Swiss descent. Ethelbert W. Bullinger wrote of the significance of 1897 in one of his books. I think the book was called The Witness of the Stars. That book is available free online at philologos.org. It was right at the back of the book that he did his calculations. The point is that Bullinger published his book in the 1880s, so for him his calculations were prophetic, something yet future.

Another interesting thing. Daniel 2 begins in the second year of Nebuchadnezzar's reign, thus setting the initial captivity date at 604 BC. Moving forward 2520 solar years from that year brings us to 1917. In that year, the Balfour Declaration promised the Jews a home land. Then, on December 9, 1917, General Allenby took Jerusalem from the Ottoman Turks without a gunshot being fired. The ANZAC forces of Australia and New Zealand played a major part in the freeing of Jerusalem. In fact, it was a New Zealand soldier of Jewish blood who was first to fly the Star of David ensign over Jerusalem! I believe the very day that Allenby marched into Jerusalem was the Feast Day of Dedication.

Stephen

[White]

Hi Stephen,
Feast Day of Dedication = Hanukkah = Menorah ...
I'll check out this Swiss guy "Bullinger" - have you heard of the Prophecy Code by this Minnesota guy, Jeffrey A. Manty? I called him today - talked to his dad - I told him that Basle was in Switzerland - I can't believe the editor did not catch this. Anyway - I think it's funny, being Swiss myself. Just confirms what I wrote the other day about Switzerland having Jewish Roots.
Shalom,
White

[Stephen]

Hello White!

So nice to hear from you. I had a brief look at some excerpts from that book you recommended, Prophecy Code. I'm sorry to have to say this but the book is nothing for me. From what I briefly read I would categorise it as junk prophecy. There are hundreds and hundreds of authors whose works belong in that category.

At this forum, I have made a decision to put my energies into the exposition of gematria. It is a talent that I have developed through intense involvement with it, and something that I love doing and wish to share. Because of that, I have also made a decision to avoid getting entangled in discussions on the pitfalls of prophecy. I will still enter the fray here and there, but I refuse to get bogged down in it. I have pretty much worked out my general overview on prophecy from the Bible. It totally excludes most of the junk that gets spewed out in churches and in Christian bookshops these days.

The whole business of the 2520 years is fascinating, and has been written about extensively. Again, I've decided to leave that subject alone on this forum simply because I have neither the time nor the inclination to lay the very involved groundwork for it. Some of the more wonderful things of prophecy do require heavy investment in setting out the foundations thereof. This forum is not the place for such an involved enterprise. It's far too time-consuming.

Yes, Hanukkah was the day that Jerusalem fell to the British. The same day that Jerusalem fell to the Maccabees in 165 BC. General Allenby entered Jerusalem two days later, on December 11. He did so without pomp or fanfare, entering on foot out of respect for the Holy City, although the citizens of Jerusalem were overwhelmed with joy to be freed from the Turks. To them, the name Allenby represented a blend of the Arabic allah (God) and nabiy (prophet), a 'prophet of God'. Both Jew and Arab celebrated the throwing off of the Turkish yoke. There are some wonderful internet resources where you can learn more about this history.

Another interesting prophecy related to Jerusalem is that at Daniel 8:14. If the 2300 days be years, and are taken to commence with Alexander's victory over Darius III at the Battle of Issus in 333 BC, the end of the 2300 years would come out at 1967, when the Jews finally claimed all of Jerusalem. I don't know for sure if this is a valid interpretation of the text though. Just a thought.

Stephen

[White]

Hey Stephen,

Funny how the LORD always works - and connects Earth to Heaven or Heaven to Earth - depending on your point of view. I just opened your post a few minutes ago and realized that this morning the reading in the Catholic Church I attend was :
Daniel 7:9ff:
"As I watched, Thrones were set up and the Ancient One took his throne. His clothing was white as snow, and the hair on his head as white as wool; His throne was flames of fire, with wheels of burning fire. A surging stream of fire flowed out from where he sat; thousands upon thousands were ministering to him, and myriads upon myriads attended him."

I like this part: "The court was convened, and the books were opened. I watched, then from the first of the arrogant words which the horn spoke, until the beast was slain and its body thrown into the fire to be burnt up. The other beasts, which also lost their dominion, were granted a prolongation of life for a time and a season. " Ultimately however, the beast lost... halleluijah!!!

More Good news:
"As the visions during the night continued, I saw "One like a son of man coming, on the clouds of heaven; when he reached the Ancient One and was presented before him, he received dominion, glory and kingship; nations and peoples of every language serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that shall not be taken away, his kingship shall not be destroyed."

Here Stephen, you were just talking about Daniel - just on the other page in my bible, namely Chapter 8:14 which reads as follows: "For 2300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary shall be purified." I like it when GOD and I are on the same page - today quite literally - and it's exciting that the ENTIRE CATHOLIC CHURCH WORLDWIDE IN ONE VOICE read one of the most exhilarating and uplifting verses in the Bible : I call that perfect timing and thus our LORD is the "Stone hewn from the mountain" and He is also the "SON of MAN" in whom and through whom the Salvation of GOD's people came to be realized and whose will is that NONE SHALL PERISH but all shall come to repentance. And Isaac means Laughter, thus GOD will have the LAST LAUGHT! I'll bet on that one!

Shalom to Jerusalem and the HOLY LAND, Shalom among all people with Y'SHUA / JESUS in the Heart of all!
White

[White]

Addition to previous post

Only one day in the book of Daniel - see above - amazing ... We are now in the book of Numbers - Moses, Miriam and Aaron standing before God Almighty and because of disobedience, Miriam turns white as snow and is cast out of the camp for 7 days, however, her brother MOSES pleads with GOD to have MERCY, that is MERCY on her, and GOD listened.

May we pray for GOD'S MERCY above all things, because, we are but sinners saved by the BLOOD OF THE LAMB. The people of this world say seeing is believing, but GOD in Heaven says, Believing is seeing. May we believe the WORDS of our LORD and Savior Jesus / Yeshua and carry HIS CROSS for all to see.

Again. we NEED to pray for the 21 hostages from S.Korea - to be freed.
Amen - How about one OUR FATHER every hour on the hour for their release?
around the clock? Just a thougjht!

AMEN
SHALOM TO JERUSALEM AND THE WHOLE WORLD
WHITE