View Full Version : Torah Letter Count
Richard Amiel McGough
10-20-2009, 04:48 PM
David brought up the question of the number of letters in the Torah, and why there was a difference between the list (http://www.aishdas.org/toratemet/en_pamphlet9.html) presented on aishdas.org and my database which is derived from the BHS (4th edition). I don't know which document aishdas used, but here is the results of a comparison I produced today:
http://www.biblewheel.com/images/torah_letter_count.jpg
In my analysis I found that four letters had exactly the same frequency as reported by aishdas, and ten had a difference between 1 and 3. So the documents are very close. But there is a big mystery concerning the distribution of Vav, Yod, Mem, Nun, and Tzaddi which have differences of 24, 34, 12, 21 and -90, respectively. The last value is very strange. I triple checked my results since it seems impossible that there could be a difference of 90 Tzaddis in the two documents. I suspect that the number reported by aishdas is a mistake.
So there's the data.
Richard
RockGate
10-21-2009, 10:18 AM
I looked at your data. Of course, I can't compare my findings, but only for Genesis..since that is all I have in spreadsheet. But my findings from copying your database is 78,070 characters and 20,564 words. What is fascinating to me is that the word count is 52 more than the aishdas.org number. Your total number of characters off for the whole torah is 51. Perhaps a coincidence, don't know. But I'm forced to wonder if there is some kind of Jewish tradition going on here...perhaps with one of the names of God...since it is blasphemy to repeat it....perhaps it is blasphemy to count the letters? Just a wild guess....stab in the dark. The reason I wonder that is because Jhwh is 26 and 26 x 2 is 52. Could this have anything to do with the discrepency in word count?
BTW, I'm totally new to the Torah....could you tell me what BHS is? Thanks.
RockGate
10-22-2009, 02:11 PM
All right, you seem to pooh pooh the prime number discovery I made. Ok, what about this one. You know Vernon Jenkins website, he shows that the first 8 letters of the torah are parametricly linked with 3 numbers 500, 105, and 99. He lists them this way
A=500
B=105
C=99
Here are 2 equations I figured out after 2 solid days of quite literally banging my head on a wall:
A(phi) = 2(B) + C
A(e) = 12(B) + C
I'll let you chew on that one.......see what you've got
PS, the first equation reaches a result within 5/100,000ths and the second is off by a mere 1/10,000ths
RockGate
10-22-2009, 02:14 PM
If you have a pentagon with an overall height of 100 units from peak to midpoint of base, then the overall width is 105.14 units wide.
105.14 to 100
vs.
105.0 to 99
If you have a golden triangle of sides 500 units, the base would be 309 which is 2 x 105 + 99. Here we see pentagonal geometry interlinked into the first 8 words of the torah...which has 5 books..... PENTA...teuch.
Richard Amiel McGough
10-22-2009, 05:19 PM
I looked at your data. Of course, I can't compare my findings, but only for Genesis..since that is all I have in spreadsheet. But my findings from copying your database is 78,070 characters and 20,564 words. What is fascinating to me is that the word count is 52 more than the aishdas.org number. Your total number of characters off for the whole torah is 51. Perhaps a coincidence, don't know. But I'm forced to wonder if there is some kind of Jewish tradition going on here...perhaps with one of the names of God...since it is blasphemy to repeat it....perhaps it is blasphemy to count the letters? Just a wild guess....stab in the dark. The reason I wonder that is because Jhwh is 26 and 26 x 2 is 52. Could this have anything to do with the discrepency in word count?
BTW, I'm totally new to the Torah....could you tell me what BHS is? Thanks.
The BHS is the Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia, which is a standard critical edition of the Massoretic text. There are a few other versions of the Hebrew scriptures with minor variations, but I have not studied them in any detail.
Richard Amiel McGough
10-22-2009, 05:27 PM
All right, you seem to pooh pooh the prime number discovery I made.
I haven't pooh-poohed it. I wrote a response to you but your email wouldn't receive it again, but this time it was for a different reason.
I looked at the picture but could not understand what the numbers meant. I understand that you put the first 34 verses in a circle, but I don't understand the meaning of the numbers in the three cells aligned with each verse. You said they are "unique prime factors" but they were neither unique nor all prime so I didn't know what you meant. Also, I didn't understand why the words "Second Day" and "Third Day" didn't line up with the verses describing those days. So I'll need a little more explanation.
Ok, what about this one. You know Vernon Jenkins website, he shows that the first 8 letters of the torah are parametricly linked with 3 numbers 500, 105, and 99. He lists them this way
A=500
B=105
C=99
Here are 2 equations I figured out after 2 solid days of quite literally banging my head on a wall:
A(phi) = 2(B) + C
A(e) = 12(B) + C
I'll let you chew on that one.......see what you've got
PS, the first equation reaches a result within 5/100,000ths and the second is off by a mere 1/10,000ths
I'm not familiar with the specific page of Vernon's site that you are referring to. Could you post the link?
I don't undestand what you mean by the letter A. You seem to be using it in two ways: once as a number A = 500 and again as a function A(phi). Could you explain what you mean?
Richard
RockGate
10-22-2009, 08:07 PM
http://www.whatabeginning.com/Misc/Wonders/SA12.htm
Hope this is what you requested.
About the prime numbers, they are the numbers around the outside between the color bands. These numbers don't seem to be prime because they are the actual prime number....discarding all other numbers. For instance, 2 is the first prime number, so it is listed there as a "1". 3 is the 2nd prime number, 5 the third, 7 the fourth, 11 the 5th,.....and so on. Therefore, I am examining the torah word gematria from a puristic viewpoint...only prime numbers.
An interesting and reinforcing fact that I am on the right track in this regards is the use of the word 'towb' or good when the author/s of the Torah describe the days of creation. Look closely and you'll see that the 2nd day of creation is intentionally not mentioned as 'good'...only 'it was so'. However, there is 6 days of creation and 6 good's. This is because the 6th day has a 'good' and a 'very good'. Now, why is this encouraging to me?
The 2nd day is mentioned on verse 8, where the first day is verse 1, the third day verse 13, the 4th day is vs 19, the 5th day vs 23, and the 6th day vs 31. If you notice, these are all prime numbers except for day 2....verse 8. It was the day that was not "good". See this? Can you give me a better explanation not involving prime numbers?
The inner colored ring is the actual days color coded in the 7 ROYGBIV colors of the rainbow. The outer ring is similar, but are what I consider to be the cryptic days of creation involving an evening and a morning based on the unique prime factors per verse. Notice that each of these colors spans a black cluster and a white cluster of contiguous verses. The other larger colored numbers represent fibonnaci number sequences. There is a red fibonnaci sequence and a blue fibonnaci sequence. The other numbers between these fibonnaci sequence are also numbered.
I know it is a bit confusing a takes a great deal of thought. Believe me. I know. I don't expect you to have anything to say without a bit of introspection and analysis. I personally believe there is too many "coincidences" here that coincide with what I think of as cryptic clues in the common text script....clues to the larger underlying cryptic message or picture/s. Very similar to Vernon Jenkins site, but a bit different. His method does not seem to include the six days and 7th day of rest of creation. This does....and is simply a number pattern of prime numbers based on the simple gematria value of the words. This can all be easily proved or disproved. The analysis of the data is the only thing open for debate.
In a nutshell....the author of the torah presented a patterned cadence of the days of creation, and whoever set out the verse structure that matches the King James Version of the Bible either purposely or accidently created a verse spacing in relationship to the prime numbers that involves the fibonnaci sequence. The end of the 1st day is vs 5, 2nd day vs 8, and 3rd day verse 13. This pattern is interrupted here. Now, when the gematria calculations are performed and factors found, it is the 8th and 13th verses that are the first to not have unique prime factors. This would at first site suggest another 21 verses before the next one is found. However, the pattern is the fibonnaci sequence in verse 8, 5, 3, 2, 1, 1, 0....ending with verse 19 or 20. It would be between 20 and 21 if the black verse of 1 is counted in the sequence.
At verse 13 another fibonnaci sequence starts but is based on a different counting scheme. Instead of one verse clusters spaced by the fibonnaci sequence, we find that this scheme utilizes the number of verse clusters together. Vs 13 is a 1 vs cluster, and so is vs16, then 2 at 18&19, then 3 at vs23to25, then 5 verses at 28to32. If you wanted to continue on past day 7...which the plain text tells you to basically ignore because God rested...then you switch back to verse 1 and count 8...based on the other scheme of counting. Now, starting at vs 34 and counting clockwise on the left half of the circle, we have also one white, then one black, then the 5 white mentioned earlier, then the 2 black of vs26&27 , then 3 white, then 3 black....and we're right back to the enpoint of the first fibonnaci sequence starting from vs1...a 0 point in my opinion created by the two 21x21 squares overlapping at 13 and 21 to form a total of 34 verses. One fibonnaci sequence starts around vs 21 and proceeds upwards to 8 at vs 1 moving ccw. The other starts around vs 13 and moves cw to vs 34. Yet another fibonnaci sequence starts at 34 and moves counter to the last one and in between it to vs 21. And the last or 4th sequence is the one marked in large 1,2,4,7....which is the fibonnaci sequence minus 1. So, every single cluster and spacing of verses based on the unique prime factors is somehow related to the fibonnaci sequence. Quite the coincidence, in my opinion! AND....the fibonnaci sequence moves counter to the fibonnaci sequence in two different directions in 2 different schemas in counting. Quite amazing to me...but it makes my head hurt at times also. So, I understand if you don't see it. Believe me. I do. I rather think I'm destined to be quite alone in admiration of it actually. But I thought I'd try with a few people who think in these terms,...you and Vernon. Haven't had much luck yet, but I appreciate your efforts. I do.
RockGate
10-22-2009, 08:16 PM
The numbers in Vernon's website list A, B, and C as simple numbers. It is a very simple algebraic equation of substitution....substitute 500 for A and multiply by 500. I usually represent multiplication by separating the factors to be multiplied by parenthesis rather than an x or *....if I can....that is my preference.
Eg. I could have just written the first equation like this:
500 * phi = (2 * 105) + 99
See? Simple. All first 8 words of the torah are parametrically linked to these 3 numbers, thanks to Vernon Jenkins. I simply am trying to figure out why...and I'm on a good start....it all seems to revolve around the Golden Triangle.
RockGate
10-23-2009, 12:05 PM
sqrt1.25 - 0.5 = 0.61803398874989484820458683436564 = PHI = AT HEAVEN / 100
0.5(e(sqrt1.25)) = 1.5195657376092118891459216468083 = AT THE HEAVEN / 100
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
A = 500
B = 105
C = 99
A(PHI) = 2B +C
A(E) = 12B + C
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
(PHI) = (2B +C) / A = sqrt1.25 - 0.5 = 0.61803398874989484820458683436564 = PHI = AT HEAVEN / 100
(E) = (12B + C) / A = 0.5(e(sqrt1.25)) = 1.5195657376092118891459216468083 = AT THE HEAVEN / 100
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
e = 1.5195657376092118891459216468083 / 0.5(sqrt1.25)
PHI = sqrt1.25 - 0.5
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
A(sqrt1.25 - 0.5) = 2B +C
A(1.5195657376092118891459216468083 / 0.5(sqrt1.25)) = 12B + C
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
500(sqrt1.25 - 0.5) = 2(105) + 99
500(1.5195657376092118891459216468083 / 0.5(sqrt1.25)) = 12(105) + 99
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
309.01699437494742410229341718282 ~ 309
1359.1409142295226176801437356761 ~ 1359
Richard Amiel McGough
10-23-2009, 12:09 PM
sqrt1.25 - 0.5 = 0.61803398874989484820458683436564 = PHI = AT HEAVEN / 100
0.5(e(sqrt1.25)) = 1.5195657376092118891459216468083 = AT THE HEAVEN / 100
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
A = 500
B = 105
C = 99
A(PHI) = 2B +C
A(E) = 12B + C
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
(PHI) = (2B +C) / A = sqrt1.25 - 0.5 = 0.61803398874989484820458683436564 = PHI = AT HEAVEN / 100
(E) = (12B + C) / A = 0.5(e(sqrt1.25)) = 1.5195657376092118891459216468083 = AT THE HEAVEN / 100
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
e = 1.5195657376092118891459216468083 / 0.5(sqrt1.25)
PHI = sqrt1.25 - 0.5
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
A(sqrt1.25 - 0.5) = 2B +C
A(1.5195657376092118891459216468083 / 0.5(sqrt1.25)) = 12B + C
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
500(sqrt1.25 - 0.5) = 2(105) + 99
500(1.5195657376092118891459216468083 / 0.5(sqrt1.25)) = 12(105) + 99
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
309.01699437494742410229341718282 ~ 309
1359.1409142295226176801437356761 ~ 1359
I don't understand what these numbers are supposed to mean. Why do you think they are significant?
RockGate
10-23-2009, 04:14 PM
I didn't completely answer your question as to why I think those numbers are important. I'll let you in on quite a bit more. I believe this is the path to the TRUE holy grail.....an understanding of the base of all energy and creation...the order behind the chaos. Why do I suspect this? Because I've spent over 6 years working on decoding the written and constructed works of Edward Leedskalnin who built "Coral Castle" but he called it "Rock Gate".
www.coralcastle.com
www.coralcastlecode.com
That is the ONLY reason I've arrived at the doorstep of gematria, Hebrew, Latin, Greek, Torah, ciphering, sacred geometry....on and on...and on. He pointed me to the first couple chapters of Genesis as I told you earlier.
What do I believe is important about the numbers e and phi? Ed Leedskalnin used them on the front cover of Magnetic Current for the proportions of his title page outline rectangles. He used the Metric System...and the inner height of the rectangle is 16.18 cm. high. The height of the outer circumscribng rectangle is 16.79 cm. high. Why is this important to e and phi? Well, the first height is 10 times larger than the large golden mean of 1.618. The second number is e times small phi (0.618) times 10.
In the center of these all is two simple curves that take the form of a cup....a grail....a magnetic grail. Something that most wouldn't even notice, let alone comprehend. I've spent many years working out the equations of those curves. They involve all the sacred numbers of sacred geometry...but the most important ones involve squaring the circle constant of sqrt(1/pi), phi, pi, sqrt2, sqrt3, and e. I decoded parts of his works and he pointed me to the Torah. What a coincidence that I now find equations involving the gematria of the first 8 words of Genesis involving e and phi?
If you think I'm the only one on the scent of this game....here's a quote from a book I own by an "Edward Marlinski" entitled "How To Read His Writings - The Unauthorized Guide to Decoding Edward Leedskalnin's Works".
"The man known as EDL, you will find, had a diverse background in many fields of knowledge, and life experiences. He was you will discover, a true being of his time. We, as he, take the many paths in our life as it unfolds. We take the opportunities that come to us akin to a falling leaf pushed by the winds of family, jobs, love, ware, patriotism and the politics of the day. Some paths we take in our life we cannot completely control, at least not at the time they occur. As we get older, or more knowledgeable and aware of our mortality, we change. Some of us earlier than others and some of course never do. Some of us even pick up the book known as the bible and read about our ancient recorded past. Would it surprise you that it was the basis of EDL's knowledge and to all that learn how to read between its lines? If you ever read some of the passages from the bible you we see the same type of phrasing and repetition that EDL uses in his published works. As suspected, it is no coincidence. The bible, remember was the word of God put to print on paper by man, for man to read and understand. .... As children, we first had to learn how to read, so we could learn on our own. So, as you learn how to read EDL's writings, EDL, in his fashion, wil show you the way to his secrets, as he shows you how to read his writings too. So, did you find the words ROCK and GATE?" Edward Marlinski (bold added)
So, this is why I'm here and what motivates me for quite a few years now. I have been finding his secrets...and now I've been finding the secrets in the Torah...because it seems that was the source of his secrets in the first place. This is the only man in history to publicly claim to have discovered the secrets of the Egyptian Pyramids and Mayan Pyramids....and the only one to PROVE it!. He single-handedly built Rock Gate with stones larger than the pyramids....cut....and erected them.
Now, I know there are dogmatites right now shaking their head and thinking I'm reading the Bible for the wrong reasons. You're entitled to your opinion...and so am I. I've been there and done that many years also.
Richard Amiel McGough
10-23-2009, 05:32 PM
Hey there David, :yo:
You have introduced many ideas that I have never explored, and many that I am quite familiar with. It will take a little time to get to know each other.
My original interest in numbers arose from my studies of traditional mathematics and physics (I have degrees in both). I studied Quantum Physics which is, as you probably know, a very abstract mathematical formalism that is currently our best theory of the nature of physical reality. Then when I was about 31 I began a spiritual quest and got interested in every spiritual idea under the sun. In 1990 I had a series of very significant dreams that involved numbers that made sense in light of Hebrew gematria. After a while, my studies led me to believe that the Bible was the inspired Word of God, and this led to a slow awakening to the awareness that Christ is Lord and I discovered I was a Christian.
My study of the symbolic meanings of the Hebrew Letters, Gematria and Numerical Geometry are all integrated. I believe that they reveal the Archetypes underlying Reality, the Eternal Ideas from the Mind of God that explain the meaning of Life, the Universe, and Everything. This sounds similar to your quest for "the underlying order of the chaos."
So ... since we are of a similar mentality, I think we probably will be able to help each other in our mutual quest.
I will review the things you have written and answer more.
Richard
Richard Amiel McGough
10-23-2009, 06:21 PM
So, this is why I'm here and what motivates me for quite a few years now. I have been finding his secrets...and now I've been finding the secrets in the Torah...because it seems that was the source of his secrets in the first place. This is the only man in history to publicly claim to have discovered the secrets of the Egyptian Pyramids and Mayan Pyramids....and the only one to PROVE it!. He single-handedly built Rock Gate with stones larger than the pyramids....cut....and erected them.
Hummm ... I took a look at the sites you posted, but I didn't find anything like "proof" presented there - on the contrary, I found only "mystery" and "secrets." And these are things for which I have little patience. If someone had real proof, why hide it all in mystery?
My first thought about "how he did it" is simple - you can move a great mass if you do it slowly enough.
Now, I know there are dogmatites right now shaking their head and thinking I'm reading the Bible for the wrong reasons. You're entitled to your opinion...and so am I. I've been there and done that many years also.
Don't worry about "dogma" here. Most folks are involved in discussions concerning hermeneutics, not dogmatics.
Richard
Richard Amiel McGough
10-23-2009, 07:36 PM
Proof? From the snippet of words you quoted, I think there is a misunderstanding. The only thing that I alluded to "proof" was Ed Leedskalnin's claim that he discovered the Secrets of how the ancients built very large structures with very primitive tools. You don't need to go to a website for that proof. You only need to go to Coral Castle in Homestead, Florida. I've been there many times and performed 6 measurements, surveys, and scale drawings in CAD. I know just about every inch of it...above ground.
I was specifically replying to your statement that "This is the only man in history to publicly claim to have discovered the secrets of the Egyptian Pyramids and Mayan Pyramids....and the only one to PROVE it!. He single-handedly built Rock Gate with stones larger than the pyramids....cut....and erected them." It seemed to me that you had made an extraordinary claim about a man being the only person in history to discover and "PROVE" how the pyramids were built. I was only trying to say that the mere existence of Rock Gate does not constitute proof of your claim, and there is no info on the sites that you linked that have any proof either.
You don't like mysteries? OK.
I LOVE the genuine mysteries of REALITY. I just don't like man-made "mysteries" and "secrets" about "sectret knowledge" and all that. Truth is Light. If they had any Truth, they would not hide it in "occultism."
Really, it matters nothing to me what you or anyone else thinks of this man's works or mine.
I have not formed any opinion of either yet. I don't know you or Ed well enough.
I'm simply here trying to find answers to questions I"m not even conciously aware of yet. In the meantime, I'm aware that I'm not led places simply to get answers, but also to provide answers to others if I can.
I look forward to learning more from you!
I personally do have "time for mysteries"....I believe I'm in search of the things that were taught in the ancient "mystery" schools. However, as you seem to suggest, I haven't joined any organized group to find these things. I think I feel the same about this topic that Socrates did when he chose not to join the Eleusian Mysteries.
There is some value in learning about all the "mystery schools" - years ago I read a lot of that liturature. Much of it grew out of Christian mysticism in the middle ages. But it looks pretty goofy and immature to me now. Like some high-school kids pretending to be statesmen. The real problem is that they seem to be "ever learning, but never coming to a knowledge of the truth."
Am I a Christian? I think so, but choose not to talk of such things with anyone else at this time. As I said, I spent many years dedicated to such nonsense. I was brought up a Mormon, graduated from BYU, and served a 2 year mission in England/Wales. To me, my faith is my own business and no one else's but God's. I'm very wary of those who love to push any doctrine or faith....for I've found it's usually for their benefit and not yours.
Very interesting, Thanks for sharing ... it's good to get to know a little about you and your background. Don't worry - there'll be no inquisition here.
Actually, my near death experience involved a voice that told me that my religion was boxing me in and that the things I was looking for were in the world and that I should "look to the East". Interestingly enough, this is the first sentence of "Magnetic Current" by Edward Leedskalnin. "This writing is lined up so when you read it you look East". I also am very impressed with the use of "East" in Genesis and the rest of the Bible...particularly in relationship to the Tree of Life. This is definitely one mystery I am determined to solve because my NDE stressed this point. You have any insight to this?
What is the most significant thing you have learned from Ed's writings? What would I benefit by reading them?
Great to be chatting,
Richard
Richard Amiel McGough
10-23-2009, 08:57 PM
I read your introduction where you said that you can "proove" that we are all fallen angels in the text of the Bible. Please understand. I'm not in any way trying to discredit that...as a matter of fact, I came to a similar conclusion on my own....with a great deal of pondering and looking around me.
Huh??? I have never written anything about us being "fallen angels" - what exactly did you read? Can you post a link? You have me mystified.
Richard
phinine
06-18-2012, 11:07 PM
just sharing info from Jeffrey Meiliken
There are strict laws in recreating a Torah that a scribe must follow meticulously or the Torah isn’t kosher, in other words completely invalid. For example, each of the 304,805 letters, comprised of exactly (600,000-408) component letters must be formed fully and perfectly and in the precise order; one deviation and the entire document is nullified. He does, though, have a little leeway in how many letters, grouped into specific words, verses, and paragraphs to place on each line, put just so long as each of the columns begin at specific places. This means he can stretch certain letters within guidelines and also stretch the space between some of the letters again within guidelines.
Nevertheless, in the end there will be 42 rows of spaces and letters, let’s call them collectively “character spaces” in each column, and either 245 or 248 columns per page, as there are always two points of view in Judaism. The standard is 248 columns, corresponding most fittingly numerically to “womb” and “mercy” and “Abraham,” considering that the sum of the Names of the 5 Books in the Torah is 2480. But enough gematria, we’ll explore the significance of 245 columns, and also 246 columns, after we tackle the matrix formed by the 248 columns by 42 rows.
There is nothing left to chance in the Torah, also known as The 5 Books of Moses, everything has a special “harmonic” alignment and thus purpose. The total number of 304,805 letters, 79,975 words and 5845 verses collectively equals 390,625 or 58. That would appear to be more than an accident, right? Exactly 5 raised to the power of 8. Try just calculating that in your head, 5 x 5, now 5 again, now 5 again, again and again 8 times, let alone keeping track of all those letters, words, and verses.
But what if all the letters and the empty “white fire” spaces, in other words, the character spaces in that same 248 x 42 matrix also totaled 390,625 or 58?
Thus focused and ascending, let’s continued beyond, where we recall the words of Rabbi Chaim Vital of blessed memory that all Torah light is spread by squaring, and thus we can now see how this matrix of white and black fire was unfolded into Creation. Working backwards, we can take the square root of 390,625, which is 625, then do it again (25) and again (5) and one more time (√5) for a total of 4 times, corresponding to the 4 Letter/levels/phases of the Tetragrammaton (YHVH).
(√5)2 = 5 and 52 = 25 and 252 = 625 and 6252 = 390,625
It’s not called the 5 Books of Moses for nothing.
This square root of 5 is no arbitrary number, not by a long shot. Yes, on the surface it’s just some endless irrational number 2.2360… but so is Pi. Nevertheless, √5 appears to have been chosen to define the primordial existence that gave birth to Creation and thus physicality in the formation of the Torah matrix. A bold statement for sure, but the mathematicians are already smiling because they already know what’s coming next.
It turns out our physicality is indeed defined by the square root of 5. For you see the (√5) is at the heart of the primordial mathematical constant Phi, which controls (dictates) all natural spiraling growth in nature from the petals on the flowers, the branches on the trees, the twisting of seashells, our DNA, and arms of the Milky Way.
(√5 – 1)/2 = Phi (.61803399…)
and also
(√5 +1)/2 = Phi2 (1.61803399…)
And reminiscent of the essential Kabbalistic equation, “He and His Name are One”
we have the reason why the square root of 5 creates natural growth.
(√5 – 1)/2 x (√5 + 1)/2 = 1
or
Phi x Phi2 = 1
Extrapolating from 1, we get 4
(√5 – 1) x (√5 + 1) = 4
From Unity to the YHVH
So, G-d took this sacred space or dimension and unfolded it 4 times before shaping it into a matrix of 248 by 42 in a proportion of about 6 columns to every row, the same proportion (59%) of verses in the Torah that begin with the letter Vav of numerical value 6. Which leads us to the filling of that matrix, going from a potential state to a physical one, the point of Creation.
After the matrix was filled with swirling white and black fire in very specific quantities, both of which as we’ve seen tie back to the square root of 5, the black fire was arranged according to G-d’s Name, YHVH.
tommy58103
07-16-2012, 01:21 PM
David brought up the question of the number of letters in the Torah, and why there was a difference between the list (http://www.aishdas.org/toratemet/en_pamphlet9.html) presented on aishdas.org and my database which is derived from the BHS (4th edition). I don't know which document aishdas used, but here is the results of a comparison I produced today:
http://www.biblewheel.com/images/torah_letter_count.jpg
In my analysis I found that four letters had exactly the same frequency as reported by aishdas, and ten had a difference between 1 and 3. So the documents are very close. But there is a big mystery concerning the distribution of Vav, Yod, Mem, Nun, and Tzaddi which have differences of 24, 34, 12, 21 and -90, respectively. The last value is very strange. I triple checked my results since it seems impossible that there could be a difference of 90 Tzaddis in the two documents. I suspect that the number reported by aishdas is a mistake.
So there's the data.
Richard
Hi,
I was looking for who had the accurate letter count in the torah as I too have found various annswers that were different.
And then i did a web search and found this web site which seems to be a great site for sharing info and trading ideas that I have come up with.
Its better when you have more than one brain working on a sollution to some problem or sharing an insight that one may have stumbled upon with another person who may add to that insight and thus solve the mystery.
tommy58103
Richard Amiel McGough
07-16-2012, 01:39 PM
Hi,
I was looking for who had the accurate letter count in the torah as I too have found various annswers that were different.
And then i did a web search and found this web site which seems to be a great site for sharing info and trading ideas that I have come up with.
Its better when you have more than one brain working on a sollution to some problem or sharing an insight that one may have stumbled upon with another person who may add to that insight and thus solve the mystery.
tommy58103
Hey there Tommy! :yo:
Welcome to our forum.
:welcome:
I think it would be great if we could gather together all the data about the text of the Torah here in one place. Many folks just go with the standard answer of 304805 letters, but I don't even know which version they are using to get that number. I'd like to find electronic files for all the dominant versions of the Tanakh so we could get some definitive answers.
All the best,
Richard
Richard Amiel McGough
07-21-2012, 10:43 AM
Hi again,
I've finished my chart on the count of Torah letters in the WLC Hebrew Bible but I cannot transfer my chart to this webpage and keeping its chart form.
Is this impossible to do?
How did you get your chart to display properly?
Thank-you.
It opens perfectly in word document.
tommy58103
Hi Tommy,
You can copy and paste tables from Word or Excel. I just tried it and got this:
1
2
3
4
5
6
To get the borders, you can click on any cell in the table (to give it focus) and then click on the second button from the left on the bottom row of the icons in the toolbar of the editor and select the "full grid" option.
538
Don't hesitate to ask if you have any other questions. I look forward to reviewing your data.
Richard
Richard Amiel McGough
07-21-2012, 03:40 PM
my reply looks good before I post it.But it doesnt want to put data in columns but only rows.
my email is tommy58103@yahoo.com
Hey there Tommy,
Send me the file in an email and I'll see if I can post it for you in a table.
richard@biblewheel.com
Richard
Richard Amiel McGough
07-21-2012, 04:41 PM
my verses Aishdas verses diff my letters Aishdas letters diff my words Aishdas words diff
Gen 1533 1534? -1? 78162 78064 98 20635 20512 123
Ex 1213 1209? 4? 63604 63529 75 16728 16723 5
Lev 859 858? 1? 44817 44790 27 11956 11950 6
Num 1288 1288? 0 63588 63530 58 16422 16368 54
Deut 959 955? 4? 55056 54892 164 14324 14294 30
Total 5852 5844? 8? 305227 304805 422 80065 79847 218
I got the number of verses from the aishdas.org website but I think they have one verse in error as some websites give the number of verses in
the Torah as 5845 and others as 5888.
It would be great if you posted links to any pages where you find the numbers.
I know there is a problem with even the number of verses, because I count 5853 in my database.
I need to find electronic copies of the other versions before I can do any analysis of the difference.
I've included the final letters also and the 21st letter has two forms but I think they count it as the same letter.
I don't know which Hebrew Bilble the aishdas.org is using but it seems that the BHS that you used comes closer than mine.
I found a BHS webisite(Blyblos.com) and I'm going to copy and paste that version and see if I get any letter counts closer to yours.
I'm glad this website is here, but I don't know why a website has not already been developed that would have this data on it for anyone
who may want this information.
I always thought that the Hebrew Bible was the Hebrew Bible and they were all the same as supposedly the scribes who copied it made sure that was the case.
Yes, the 21st letter Shin/Sin is counted as one because the only difference is a diacritical mark. The letter itself is unchanged.
I have a paper copy of the Hebrew Bible that has a lot of differences from the BHS. It was published by the Trinitarian Bible Society, but it doesn't say what ms it is based on.
The myth of the invariant "Hebrew Bible" is very persistent ... and false.
Oh yeah,
Scriptures4all.com used the Westminster Leningrad Codex(WLC) as their source but it seems that it is way off in the count from both yours and
aishdas.org's results.
I don't know why there would be such a large error with the 18th letter(tsaddi) but it does have a final form that they may not count all the time(who knows).
I'm using the Westminster Leningrad Codex(WLC) from cripture4all.com
scripture4all.com
nine Final letter my total my diff their number your number your diff
1 27074 27074 17 27057 27060 3
2 16361 16361 17 16344 16345 1
3 2111 2111 2 2109 2109 0
4 7039 7039 7 7032 7032 0
5 28090 28090 38 28052 28055 3
6 30607 30607 98 30509 30533 24
7 2199 2199 1 2198 2198 0
8 7195 7195 8 7187 7189 2
9 1806 1806 4 1802 1804 2
10 31612 31612 90 31522 31556 34
11 8615 3358 11973 13 11960 11968 8
12 21588 21588 18 21570 21570 0
13 14481 10625 25106 28 25078 25090 12
14 9893 4259 14152 45 14107 14128 21
15 1837 1837 4 1833 1836 3
16 11273 11273 29 11244 11250 6
17 3977 830 4807 2 4805 4806 1
18 2938 1035 3973 -79 4052 3962 -90
19 4702 4702 8 4694 4695 1
20 18151 18151 42 18109 18125 16
21 3420
21 12186
15606 14 15592 15595 3
22 17965 17965 16 17949 17950 1
TOTAL 305227 422 304805 304856 51
tommy58103
[/quote]
I went to scripture4all.com and found an advertizing site with no content. Did you give the right url?
Richard Amiel McGough
07-28-2012, 08:29 AM
Hi again,
Sorry......the url should be scripture4all.org
I downloaded the text from each chapter and put it all in one document.
and then I counted the letters from there and I made a chart of my results.
I sent you a copy at richard@biblewheel.com but keep getting a failure notice when I send.
I tried to copy my chart into this webpage but it won't work.
I think you have to have some kind of permission to do that are have a special type of program which I don't have.
I didn't know it was that hard to import a excel document into a website forum until now.
I'm still working on BHS version and will see if I get the same results as you did.It will probaly take me at least a month to finish as I have to copy and paste each chapter.
I was going to try to look for patterns in the text of the Torah but it would be nice to have version that would be without error before I put alot of work into the search.
tommy58103
P.S.
I goofed up by replying more than once since I didn't see it posted right away
Is there anyway to edit previous posts to delete duplicates?
tommy58103
Too many psots get confusing to anybody who reads this webpage.
Hi tommy,
Could you PM me with the message you get when you try to send me an email? I need to find out why your email is being blocked.
You can attach your Excel file to a post. Just click the "Manage Attachments" button below the edit box.
Thanks for the corrected link.
I deleted the duplicate post.
How did you get the Hebrew text from that site. Everything I see for download is compiled for the Interlinear Scripture Analyzer software.
Richard
Richard Amiel McGough
07-28-2012, 10:53 AM
Hey there Tommy,
Here are the tables I copied and and pasted from your attached file. I don't know why it didn't work for you.
Letters
WLC
Aishdas.org
BHS 4th Ed
my number
Final letter
my total
my diff
their number
your number
your diff
א
27074
27074
17
27057
27060
3
ב
16361
16361
17
16344
16345
1
ג
2111
2111
2
2109
2109
0
ד
7039
7039
7
7032
7032
0
ה
28090
28090
38
28052
28055
3
ו
30607
30607
98
30509
30533
24
ז
2199
2199
1
2198
2198
0
ח
7195
7195
8
7187
7189
2
ט
1806
1806
4
1802
1804
2
י
31612
31612
90
31522
31556
34
כ
8615
3358
11973
13
11960
11968
8
ל
21588
21588
18
21570
21570
0
מ
14481
10625
25106
28
25078
25090
12
נ
9893
4259
14152
45
14107
14128
21
ס
1837
1837
4
1833
1836
3
ע
11273
11273
29
11244
11250
6
פ
3977
830
4807
2
4805
4806
1
צ
2938
1035
3973
-79
4052
3962
-90
ק
4702
4702
8
4694
4695
1
ר
18151
18151
42
18109
18125
16
ש Sin
3420
ש Shin
12186
ש Sin+ש Shin
15606
14
15592?
15595
3
ת
17965
17965
16
17949
17950
1
Total
305227
422
304805
304856
51
my verses
Aishdas verses
diff
my letters
Aishdas letters
diff
my words
Aishdas words
diff
Gen
1533
1534?
-1?
78162
78064
98
20635
20512
123
Ex
1213
1209?
4?
63604
63529
75
16728
16723
5
Lev
859
858?
1?
44817
44790
27
11956
11950
6
Num
1288
1288?
0?
63588
63530
58
16422
16368
54
Deut
959
955?
4?
55056
54892
164
14324
14294
30
Total
5852
5844?
8?
305227
304805
422
80065
79847
218
Richard Amiel McGough
07-28-2012, 01:21 PM
Hi Richard,
Thanks for telling me how to use manage edit in webpage....I didn't see that at the bottom of the page.
I gave you the wrong url.
I am using that website also but it gives the Hebrew Bible in pdf form and not the full text. I have made a copy of the Bible I downloaded from olivetree.com in transliterated form after copying and pasting each chapter from that website and then counted the letters from that.
but I don't know what version of Hebrew Bible they are using.
The website I used for my Hebrew Bible was:
http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm
Attached is the new charts with added corrections.
Thank-you.
tommy58103
Hey there Tommy,
Here are the new charts. Have you tried again to copy and paste them? It works fine for me in Firefox. What browser are you using?
Aishdas.org
BHS 4th Ed
Letters
my number
Final letter
my total
my diff
their number
your number
your diff
א
27074
27074
17
27057
27060
3
ב
16361
16361
17
16344
16345
1
ג
2111
2111
2
2109
2109
0
ד
7039
7039
7
7032
7032
0
ה
28090
28090
38
28052
28055
3
ו
30607
30607
98
30509
30533
24
ז
2199
2199
1
2198
2198
0
ח
7195
7195
8
7187
7189
2
ט
1806
1806
4
1802
1804
2
י
31612
31612
90
31522
31556
34
כ
8615
3358
11973
13
11960
11968
8
ל
21588
21588
18
21570
21570
0
מ
14481
10625
25106
28
25078
25090
12
נ
9893
4259
14152
45
14107
14128
21
ס
1837
1837
4
1833
1836
3
ע
11273
11273
29
11244
11250
6
פ
3977
830
4807
2
4805
4806
1
צ
2938
1035
3973
-79
4052
3962
-90
ק
4702
4702
8
4694
4695
1
ר
18151
18151
42
18109
18125
16
ש Sin
3420
ש Shin
12186
ש Sin+ש Shin
15606
14
15592?
15595
3
ת
17965
17965
16
17949
17950
1
Total
305227
422
304805
304856
51
I am most curious about the Tzaddi. I can't imagine how there could be a difference of -90. It doesn't make any sense at all unless someone failed to count the final form. Your count of 2938 + 1035 = 3973 is pretty close to my count of 3962 (BHS). A difference of eleven still seems pretty big, but it's nothing like 90.
The other differences in yod and vav makes more sense since those letters are sometimes used as vowels.
my verses
Aishdas verses
diff
my letters
Aishdas letters
diff
my words
Aishdas words
diff
Gen
1533
1534?
-1?
78162
78064
98
20635
20512
123
Ex
1213
1209?
4?
63604
63529
75
16728
16723
5
Lev
859
858?
1?
44817
44790
27
11956
11950
6
Num
1288
1288?
0?
63588
63530
58
16422
16368
54
Deut
959
955?
4?
55056
54892
164
14324
14294
30
Total
5852
5844?
8?
305227
304805
422
80065
79847
218
We need one more column. The diff between your diff and my diff. :p
Richard Amiel McGough
07-28-2012, 07:07 PM
Hi again,
I've added a new column to show our differences and delted verses counts that aisdas.org listed for verses that I think are in error and doublechecked the numbers in the charts so there is not any errors and I think its right this time.
If you want you can delete all the other charts so as to make this blog less cluttered.
I tried to copy and paste but no good. I don't know what I'm doing wrong....could you tell me kinda by step by step tutorial and see if I can get it right then.
P.S. I've been gooffing around with Psalm 119 for the past month and I think I've found something interesting that is embedded in the text but don't know for sure. It could only be coincidence like your mind playing tricks when it sees animals in the clouds.
I don't know what Hebrew Bible that olivetree.com is using as it just say Old Testament Bible on their website.
I'm gong to download the BHS Hebrew Bible and work on that and see if I come up with the same results that you did. I think that the version used by olivetree.com may be the Westminster Leningrad Codex(WLC) but am not sure.
I've deleted some of my posts since alot of them were repeats and would just add more confusion than necessary.
This should be the last postings of these two charts until i get my other results figured out maybe in a month.
tommy58103
Hi Tommy,
I simply click the little + sign at the top of the table in Word to select the whole table, then press <control>-c to copy to the clipboard. Then I click on the post editor to give it focus and press <control>-v and TADA! The table is copied into the post. Then I click a cell in the table to give it focus, and then click the table properties button (second from the left on the bottom of the tools menu) to set the borders.
What have you found in Psalm 119? I studied it extensively when writing the Bible Wheel book because the alphabetic verses contain the KeyWords that link to the content on the 22 spokes. I would be very interested in anything you think you may have found.
I'm will be doing my best to collect all the different versions of the OT that I can find so we can do a proper analysis.
Here are the latest tables:
Letters
mine
mine
mine
my diff
theirs
yours
your diff
our diff
olivetree.com
total
olivetree.com final letter
olivetree.com +final letter
olivetree.com / aishdas.org diff
Aishdas.org total
BHS 4th Ed total
BHS/
aisdas.org diff
olivetree.com/BHS diff
א
27074
27074
17
27057
27060
3
14
ב
16361
16361
17
16344
16345
1
16
ג
2111
2111
2
2109
2109
0
2
ד
7039
7039
7
7032
7032
0
7
ה
28090
28090
38
28052
28055
3
35
ו
30607
30607
98
30509
30533
24
74
ז
2199
2199
1
2198
2198
0
1
ח
7195
7195
8
7187
7189
2
6
ט
1806
1806
4
1802
1804
2
2
י
31612
31612
90
31522
31556
34
56
כ
8615
3358
11973
13
11960
11968
8
5
ל
21588
21588
18
21570
21570
0
18
מ
14481
10625
25106
28
25078
25090
12
16
נ
9893
4259
14152
45
14107
14128
21
24
ס
1837
1837
4
1833
1836
3
1
ע
11273
11273
29
11244
11250
6
23
פ
3977
830
4807
2
4805
4806
1
1
צ
2938
1035
3973
-79
4052
3962
-90
11
ק
4702
4702
8
4694
4695
1
7
ר
18151
18151
42
18109
18125
16
26
ש Sin
3420
ש Shin
12186
ש Sin+ש Shin
15606
14
15592
15595
3
11
ת
17965
17965
16
17949
17950
1
15
Total
285120
20107
305227
422
304805
304856
51
371
olivetree.com verses
olivetree.com
letters
Aishdas.org letters
olivetree.com letter
diff
olivetree.com
words
Aishdas.org words
olivetree.com word diff
Gen
1533
78162
78064
98
20635
20512
123
Ex
1213
63604
63529
75
16728
16723
5
Lev
859
44817
44790
27
11956
11950
6
Num
1288
63588
63530
58
16422
16368
54
Deut
959
55056
54892
164
14324
14294
30
Total
5852
305227
304805
422
80065
79847
218
tommy58103
10-16-2012, 08:32 AM
Hello everybody,
I've finished my study of the 2 versions of the Hebrew Bible that are available on the internet.(The BHS and the WLC). Are they the only versions available?I got the BHS from the byblos.com website and the WLC from the olivetree.com website.After studying them and calculating their letters and numbers I find the they are both essentially the same--With just a few additions here and there along with some human error that occurred during typing.I can make that information available if anyone would like...Now as to the version used by the aishdas.org website I do not know but would like to see a copy of the Torah that they are using.Does anyone know how to access such a copy?
tommy58103@yahoo.com
tommy58103
10-16-2012, 10:55 AM
Hi everybody,
I've finished comparing the WLC and The BHS versions of the Torah in the Hebrew Bible and and come to the conclusion that they agree almost perfectly except in a very few places which I can list on this site shortly.
The version that Aishdas.org uses does not match and I'm still searching for their version of the Torah on the internet but have not had nay luck as of yet.
How many versions of the Hebrew Bible are there?
I know of the BHS and the Leningrad Codex but as to the Samaritan version that maybe aisdas.org uses I do not know of.
Does anybody have any information about any other versions so I can get the most accurage count of the exact number of letters and words used in the Torh.?
tommy58103@yahoo.com
Richard Amiel McGough
10-16-2012, 11:38 AM
Hi Tommy,
Sorry for the delay. Your comments got caught in the moderation queue because you are a new member. From now on your posts should show up instantly when you submit them.
I'll respond more as time permits.
All the best,
Richard
Richard Amiel McGough
10-17-2012, 01:30 PM
Hello everybody,
I've finished my study of the 2 versions of the Hebrew Bible that are available on the internet.(The BHS and the WLC). Are they the only versions available?I got the BHS from the byblos.com website and the WLC from the olivetree.com website.After studying them and calculating their letters and numbers I find the they are both essentially the same--With just a few additions here and there along with some human error that occurred during typing.I can make that information available if anyone would like...Now as to the version used by the aishdas.org website I do not know but would like to see a copy of the Torah that they are using.Does anyone know how to access such a copy?
tommy58103@yahoo.com
Hey there Tommy,
Yep - they seem to be the same version. But I know there is at least one other very different version out there since I've seen word and letter counts that are very different than the BHS/WLC.
If you find the other version, please let us know.
All the best,
Richard
tommy58103
10-19-2012, 02:04 PM
I have come to the conclusion that the WLC and the BHS are essentially the same with very few differences.
My counts for the letters were the same as yours except for 3 letters:
1. final nun:I get 2 less as there are 2 nuns at occur after two verses in Numbers. There are two letters after the ending of a verse instead of one.
2. samek:I get 3 less as there are 3 sameks in three verses in the Book of Deuteronomy.
3. final pe:I get one less letters as there is a final pe letter in Genesis 35:22.
My count is 6 letters less then your total count for the BHS Torah version.I used the BHS version from the Biblos.com website.
I've attached a list of the corrections that I have found.
Thank-you.
tommy58103
1
isaac
11-07-2012, 03:46 AM
hello guys my name is isaac and i am from israel
i did a search on goggle and i noticed you guys wrote a few stuff that are not so right
its only a few things wrong
the right numbers are 304805 letters 79977 words and 5845 lines
you can see and check it all on the chart i have made in my site
http://torah.125mb.com/
check it out its worth it
you must know Hebrew in order to check and read the stuff there
you have all the info you will ever need in terms of counting in the torah
Richard Amiel McGough
11-07-2012, 08:55 AM
hello guys my name is isaac and i am from israel
i did a search on goggle and i noticed you guys wrote a few stuff that are not so right
its only a few things wrong
the right numbers are 304805 letters 79977 words and 5845 lines
you can see and check it all on the chart i have made in my site
http://torah.125mb.com/
check it out its worth it
you must know Hebrew in order to check and read the stuff there
you have all the info you will ever need in terms of counting in the torah
Hey there Isaac,
Thanks for the info. I'll check it out. But why do you say that it is definitive? What about the different versions of the Torah?
All the best,
Richard
Unregistered
11-08-2012, 02:34 AM
Hey there Isaac,
Thanks for the info. I'll check it out. But why do you say that it is definitive? What about the different versions of the Torah?
All the best,
Richard
hi Richard
well thats because i am checking on all the site i can find
and where their is a diff i find so far mistakes on other people count
btw their are "different versions" but the words their are the same
the only different there is with the letters: Yodh , Waw , He
all the rest should be the same
btw the pronunciation of those few words that have diff in one letter remain the same through out all generations
from what i know the book people are praying with have 304805 letters and not the "other versions"
if you have a version with 304805 letters that is diff from what i am using i would like to see it and check it
i didn't saw anything like that so far so it will be good to check
just so you know everyone that send me stuff to check turn out hit had a mistake or the text was good but the counting was wrong
btw just so you know i also uploaded how to get 600000 letters out of 304805 letters
its all in my site (its on the bottom of the main site)
All the best,
isaac
Richard Amiel McGough
11-08-2012, 09:26 AM
hi Richard
well thats because i am checking on all the site i can find
and where their is a diff i find so far mistakes on other people count
btw their are "different versions" but the words their are the same
the only different there is with the letters: Yodh , Waw , He
all the rest should be the same
btw the pronunciation of those few words that have diff in one letter remain the same through out all generations
from what i know the book people are praying with have 304805 letters and not the "other versions"
if you have a version with 304805 letters that is diff from what i am using i would like to see it and check it
i didn't saw anything like that so far so it will be good to check
just so you know everyone that send me stuff to check turn out hit had a mistake or the text was good but the counting was wrong
btw just so you know i also uploaded how to get 600000 letters out of 304805 letters
its all in my site (its on the bottom of the main site)
All the best,
isaac
Hey there Isaac,
There are very different versions of the Torah out there that include different words, not just different spellings. Are you familiar with textual variations? The BHS lists them for every verse.
I'll be checking out your site in a few days after I finish some work that is taking all my time right now (like 15 hour days).
Shalom,
Richard
Unregistered
11-20-2012, 09:19 AM
Hi Richard
did you check out the site i posted yet?
http://torah.125mb.com/
i also updated it a bit this week
tommy58103
11-21-2012, 07:12 PM
Hi Isaac,
I am also trying to find out the accurate count of the letters and words in the Torah.
I looked at your site Isaac and I can make out what certain things are like the count of the letters in each verse.
I know it might be dumb of me but is there a way that you could retype your site in English so I can see more of what you have worked on so hard to find out.
I believe in God and I think that His fingerprints are in all that He has done.And I'm certain that the Torah is a reflection of His power and goodness but I need the most accurate translation of the torah that can be possibly obtained.I'd appreciate it very much.
I think that one does not need a totally accurate copy as the true torah can be arrived at by using logic and mathematics...Something like Sudoku where you are given some numbers but you have to figure out the rest of the numbers based on certain rules and just using your brain.
thank-you.
tommy58103
Richard Amiel McGough
11-21-2012, 09:39 PM
Hi Richard
did you check out the site i posted yet?
http://torah.125mb.com/
i also updated it a bit this week
Yes, I checked out your site a bit more. I see tables that show the letter counts for each verse. But where is the comparison with different versions of the Torah? And where are the totals? I've looked at many sites and they all differ. Here is the comparison I did with the info from aishdas.org and my BHS database. How does your work compare? Do your numbers agree exactly with aishdas?
David brought up the question of the number of letters in the Torah, and why there was a difference between the list (http://www.aishdas.org/toratemet/en_pamphlet9.html) presented on aishdas.org and my database which is derived from the BHS (4th edition). I don't know which document aishdas used, but here is the results of a comparison I produced today:
http://www.biblewheel.com/images/torah_letter_count.jpg
In my analysis I found that four letters had exactly the same frequency as reported by aishdas, and ten had a difference between 1 and 3. So the documents are very close. But there is a big mystery concerning the distribution of Vav, Yod, Mem, Nun, and Tzaddi which have differences of 24, 34, 12, 21 and -90, respectively. The last value is very strange. I triple checked my results since it seems impossible that there could be a difference of 90 Tzaddis in the two documents. I suspect that the number reported by aishdas is a mistake.
So there's the data.
Richard
Richard Amiel McGough
11-22-2012, 04:17 PM
i think aishdas have a lot of spelling mistakes or he just used a program to do it for him and its bugged or something
and i noticed your bhs is really close to the real one that i am using
(i am using the real one from i checked)
yours vs mine
27060 - 27059 = 1
16345
2109
7032
28055 - 28056 = -1
30533 - 30513 = 20
2198
7189
1804
31556 - 31531 = 25
11968
21570
25090
14128 - 14126 = 2
1836 - 1833 = 3
11250
4805
3962
4695
18125
15595
17950
304856 - 304805 = 51
btw from the count you did it seems the diff is only between the 10th letter "Yodh" and the 7 the letter "Waw"
which i see why you can mixed both of them ... they almost look the same and easy to mix between the two
from what it seem you count (BHS) is almost right ... its just have extra "Yodh" , "Waw"
if you will remove all the extra "Yodh" , "Waw" from your version it will look like this:
27060 - 27059 = 1
16345
2109
7032
28055 - 28056 = -1
30513
2198
7189
1804
31531
11968
21570
25090
14128 - 14126 = 2
1836 - 1833 = 3
11250
4805
3962
4695
18125
15595
17950
and then its almost nothing ...
you see the "Yodh" & "Waw" in hebrew does not change the word at all
and most likely in your version someone added those "Yodh" & "Waw"
but if you will put that a side like i just did you will see the only diff between my version which is the real one and you version (BHS) is 4 types of letters
1: 27060 - 27059 = 1
5: 28055 - 28056 = -1
14: 14128 - 14126 = 2
15: 1836 - 1833 = 3
and i am kinda sure my count is the right one
because i had to check and check and recheck time after time :)
like i am doing right now with you (again ^^)
Hey there Isaac,
To find out which version is correct, we would need to identify exactly which verses differ and why.
What was the source of the text you used? I got mine from the BHS database that comes with the Bible Works 7 software program.
And there is a much bigger issue for us to investigate. There are other versions of the Tanakh out there. We need to find them all and investigate their differences. I have a printed version that has some significant differences but I can't analyze it because I don't have an electronic copy. It was my first copy of the Tanakh I picked up in a used book store. It was printed in Israel by ESHKOL, J. Weinfeld, Jerusalem, 1977. I'll see what I can find out about it and post more here.
Unregistered
11-22-2012, 04:43 PM
Hey there Isaac,
To find out which version is correct, we would need to identify exactly which verses differ and why.
What was the source of the text you used? I got mine from the BHS database that comes with the Bible Works 7 software program.
And there is a much bigger issue for us to investigate. There are other versions of the Tanakh out there. We need to find them all and investigate their differences. I have a printed version that has some significant differences but I can't analyze it because I don't have an electronic copy. It was my first copy of the Tanakh I picked up in a used book store. It was printed in Israel by ESHKOL, J. Weinfeld, Jerusalem, 1977. I'll see what I can find out about it and post more here.
ok great will be nice to check them also
btw first of all when you are doing a check ignore the diff between the letters "Yodh" & "Waw"
all the other 20/22 letters should come up ok for all version
ok so remember to do that first if you are checking diff versions
because like i said adding or removing "Yodh" & "Waw" from words in Hebrew does not change the word meaning or sound
now from what i know there is a word in the torah "daca" or "דכה" (this is in Hebrew i don't know if you can see that writing)
Devarim (Deuteronomy) 23:2
[A man] with injured testicles or whose member is cut, may not enter the assembly of the Lord.
דברים כג ב
"לא יבא פצוע דכה וכרות שפכה בקהל יהוה"
this form is the curect one from what i can tell
most torahs books uses this style!
but there are a few that we know tha uses the same sentence but with only 1 letter different
i will write them both in hebrew so you can see the difference
"לא יבא פצוע דכה וכרות שפכה בקהל יהוה"
"לא יבה פצוע דכה וכרות שפכה בקהל יהוה"
you see its almost the same but there is a change between the "Aleph" (1st letter) and the "He" (5th letter)
so if you will got to what i wrote above ... after you put a side the extras "Yodh" & "Waw" you will get:
1: 27060 - 27059 = 1
5: 28055 - 28056 = -1
14: 14128 - 14126 = 2
15: 1836 - 1833 = 3
ad if you will take into account what i just wrote about Deuteronomy 23:2
27060 - 27059 = 1
28055 - 28056 = -1
this will explain the "swapping" between those two
as for the 14th and 15th letters i don't know where you came up with those numbers
it should be the same to all torahs books
the different can be only in the letters "Yodh" & "Waw"
and also one time in the swapping i just told you above
Richard Amiel McGough
11-22-2012, 04:53 PM
I found a good collection of stats on this page: http://www.esofer.com/infoSeferTorah.asp
27,057
א
7,187
ח
10,623
ם
2,925
צ
17,344
ב
1,802
ט
9,854
נ
1,057
ץ
2,109
ג
31,530
י
4,287
ן
4,694
ק
7,032
ד
8,610
כ
1,833
ס
18,125
ר
28,052
ה
3,330
ך
11,247
ע
15,596
ש
30,513
ו
21,570
ל
3,975
פ
17,949
ת
2,198
ז
14,472
מ
834
ף
304,805
TOTAL
This table gives numbers that differ from both Aishdas, my BHS db, and Isaac's table.
It looks like there is a typo for Bet since it is off by exactly 1000 from the aishdas value: 17,344 vs 16,344. It's off by 1001 from my value.
Richard Amiel McGough
11-22-2012, 05:07 PM
now from what i know there is a word in the torah "daca" or "דכה" (this is in Hebrew i don't know if you can see that i am writing)
Devarim (Deuteronomy) 23:2
[A man] with injured testicles or whose member is cut, may not enter the assembly of the Lord.
דברים כג ב
"לא יבא פצוע דכה וכרות שפכה בקהל יהוה"
this form is the curect one from what i can tell
most torahs books uses this style!
The BHS has uses aleph, not hey, in the word dakah in that verse. The BHS notes it is a textual variation. It is interesting that the Torah from Jerusalem, which has many other variations, uses the hey. So this only proves there is no "right" answer. All we have are copies with textual variations, so the idea of a perfect Torah seems meaningless to me.
but there are a few that we know tha uses the same sentence but with only 1 letter different
i will write them both in hebrew so you can see the difference
"לא יבא פצוע דכה וכרות שפכה בקהל יהוה"
"לא יבה פצוע דכה וכרות שפכה בקהל יהוה"
you see its almost the same but there is a change between the "Aleph" (1st letter) and the "He" (5th letter)
That's another example of a textual variation. I don't think there is any way to solve this problem. No one knows what the exact letters of each verse are supposed to be. Are you familiar with qere vs kethiv? Each qere is an admission that the kethiv is wrong. The scribes just didn't feel they could correct the text.
so if you will got to what i wrote above ... after you put a side the extras "Yodh" & "Waw" you will get:
1: 27060 - 27059 = 1
5: 28055 - 28056 = -1
14: 14128 - 14126 = 2
15: 1836 - 1833 = 3
ad if you will take into account what i just wrote about Deuteronomy 23:2
27060 - 27059 = 1
28055 - 28056 = -1
this will explain the "swapping" between those two
But that's only for the BHS. What about other versions of the Torah?
as for the 14th and 15th letters i don't know where you came up with those numbers
it should be the same to all torahs books
I got the numbers from the same text as the rest of the numbers.
the different can be only in the letters "Yodh" & "Waw"
and also one time in the swapping i just told you above
No - their are many sources of differences. Different textual traditions have different letters. Different mss following the same tradition can have variations due to scribal errors. And there are qere vs kethiv.
Do you know the source of the text you use? Do you know of other versions of the Torah? These are the questions that must be answered.
Richard Amiel McGough
11-22-2012, 06:25 PM
we do know whats the correct one
"לא יבא פצוע דכה וכרות שפכה בקהל יהוה"
all torahs books today use this
in the past only a few used the 2nd version
it was a mistake that they fixed
(btw this is what i used on my site)
How do you know what "all torah books" contain? That seems like a rather extravagant claim. And why should printed books be superior to electronic texts? The BHS in the Bible Works program uses aleph, not hey, in dakkah. Why do you think your choice is correct? Do you have any evidence supporting that idea? And why would one be preferred over the other? Klein's Exhaustive Etymological Dictionary of the Hebrew Language says the two forms are synonymous.
And most significantly, there are many other cases of textual variations, so how could we ever hope to find the true or original text?
And what does it matter anyway? What would it help if we knew we had the exact text?
btw all those site you are posting don't share their txt file only the finale result
just a weekago someone emailed me about a program that gives diff results
after checking that i found out they were using the same text i was using but there was a bug in the counting
i send them a reply and told them everything is ok their text is fine but the program has a bug in the counting code
Is your text posted on your site? If so, I will be able to compare it with the text I have to find out exactly where the differences are.
And what is the source of your text?
Hi,
the Zohar (or was it the Talmud?) states that the Torah has approximately the double of the real letters count. Does anybody know why?
Andreas
Richard Amiel McGough
11-23-2012, 10:14 AM
its well known issue that all the torahs books we are reading them the same even the once with a few diff letters
btw you should always check only from the torahs books and not printed books
you cant based you claims using printed books
It doesn't matter if they are all the same now. The real question is concerns the correct readings of the "original" if such even existed. Do you not understand that there are textual variations between difference ancient manuscripts? And what about qere vs. kethiv? I have explained these points to you many times now but you have not responded. Are you aware of the real facts about the torah? A good introduction to this topic, which plainly states that there are many versions of Torah, is found here (http://books.google.com/books?id=egDUOjN1qI4C&pg=PA2&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=4#v=onepage&q&f=false).
There are a lot of unanswered questions about the Torah. For example, why is it not mentioned anywhere in the history from Judges to 1 Kings 2:3? Isn't it odd that the Torah, which was supposedly contained the covenant with God that established Israel, was not mentioned during that entire 400 year period?
you must known Hebrew in order to read the bible
you cant read it in any other language only Hebrew
I know Hebrew. I'm not fluent, but I can read it.
and like i said b4 in all the torahs book you will read the same as given by the Masoretic text
the pronunciation of the text will be the same with all!
pronunciation with be the same 100% and not 99%
Why do you keep repeating that claim? What evidence do you have? The vowel points were added by a group of humans in the 7th-8th century. Why should they be taken as authoritative?
like i said b4 you should really check out the stuff i put on the site
not only i did a chart of every letter in the torah
I have checked it out. But you are just using the MT (as far as I can tell) and that's just one version that is itself based upon comparing many differing versions. So it doesn't answer any of the questions.
i did a lot more then that
count of every 613 commandments in every Parashah
http://torah.125mb.com/613.html
The idea of 613 mitzvot is just a tradition. I see no reason to think there are really 613 commandments in the Torah. That idea doesn't make any sense because it is impossible to define what a commandment is. For example, the tradition counts the statement "I am the Lord your God" as a commandment when in fact it is merely a statement. There are simply too many ambiguities, repetitions, and arbitrary decisions to make such a count believable.
When I was studying gematria, I found that BTVRH (In the Torah) = 613. I think this was the source of the tradition.
and Finally in the end of the main page you have an explanation on how to get to the hidden 600,000 letters in the torah
i also made sure to attached a few sources to that count
This is another tradition that makes no sense. There are not 600,000 letters in the Torah. Inventing a "method" to come to that preconceived conclusion makes no sense to me.
this is a link to the text you asked
http://torah.125mb.com/Torah.txt
http://torah.125mb.com/Bereshit.txt
http://torah.125mb.com/Shemot.txt
http://torah.125mb.com/Vayikra.txt
http://torah.125mb.com/Bamidbar.txt
http://torah.125mb.com/Devarim.txt
have fun checking them ^^
Those pages are not properly encoded. They look like this:
áø*ùéú áø* *ìäé* *ú äùîé* å*ú ä*øõ åä*øõ äéúä úäå åáäå åçùê òì ôðé úäå* åøåç *ìäé* îøçôú òì ôðé äîé*
And you still have not told me the source of your text. Where did you get it? Is it the BHS? Or what?
btw i almost forgot ...
i also did a html page with all the initials of every word and even every line
1. http://torah.125mb.com/TevotStart.html
2. http://torah.125mb.com/TevotEnd.html
3. http://torah.125mb.com/5845start.html
4. http://torah.125mb.com/5845end.html
#1 link is a page with that have a chart with all the starting letter of every word
#2 link is a page with that have a chart with all the ending letter of every word
#3 link is a page with that have a chart with all the starting letter of every line
#4 link is a page with that have a chart with all the ending letter of every line
etc...
That's an interesting study.
Richard Amiel McGough
11-23-2012, 10:18 AM
Hi,
the Zohar (or was it the Talmud?) states that the Torah has approximately the double of the real letters count. Does anybody know why?
Andreas
I would think it was because they had to make up an excuse for the faulty tradition which said that there were 600,000 letters in the Torah. This exemplifies the problem with "tradition" - how do the Jews "clean up" their tradition? They can't just reject it, so they make up new fallacious traditions to explain the old fallacious traditions.
Hi,
The Talmud in Tractate Kiddushin 30a (later version) states that the Torah has 8888 verses. In reality there are around 5847 verses. Why 8888?
Andreas
Richard Amiel McGough
11-23-2012, 11:32 AM
Hi,
The Talmud in Tractate Kiddushin 30a (later version) states that the Torah has 8888 verses. In reality there are around 5847 verses. Why 8888?
Andreas
Did you mean 5,888? That's what this site (http://www.aishdas.org/toratemet/en_pamphlet9.html) says is recorded in the Tractate Kiddushin 30a. Typos are very common, so I could imagine the source of that tradition being a typo, or a simply error in counting, or ...
Richard Amiel McGough
11-23-2012, 11:34 AM
I just found this site (http://www.shemayisrael.co.il/dafyomi2/berachos/backgrnd/br-in-07.htm) that says it was 8,888
There is a broad range of variant readings for the number mentioned in this
Agadah (see also Avodah Zarah, bottom of 3a). However, according to the
marginal notes of Rebbi Yeshayah Berlin, this number should read 8,888,
which is the number of verses in the Torah according to the Gemara in
Kidushin 30a.
I mean 8888. I do not think it is just a mistake. I think it has a meaning.
Andreas
Richard Amiel McGough
11-23-2012, 12:48 PM
I mean 8888. I do not think it is just a mistake. I think it has a meaning.
Andreas
Meaning? How could a miscount have meaning? It's just an error.
Does your worldview allow for errors, or does everything have "meaning"?
Meaning? How could a miscount have meaning? It's just an error.
Does your worldview allow for errors, or does everything have "meaning"?
:lol: Not everything for sure. But this is not a miscount, it's off by over 3000 verses. How can this be a miscount?
Richard Amiel McGough
11-23-2012, 01:17 PM
:lol: Not everything for sure. But this is not a miscount, it's off by over 3000 verses. How can this be a miscount?
The same way that they "miscounted" the approximately 300,000 letters of the Torah as 600,000 ...
Richard Amiel McGough
11-24-2012, 12:44 PM
wait wait wait
let make some order around here ^^
you guys are mixing a few stuff around and reading it wrong
first of all those 600,000 letters are the hidden letters of the bible not what you can see , ok?
there are 304805 letters
letter "א" is written like this "אלף"
meaning the letter itself when you are writing it fully has too more hidden letters
you see in the bible there is the visible part and the hidden part , ok?
the visible part is the letter that you can see with your eyes
the hidden part is the rest of the letters that complete the visible letter
so the first letter of the alpha beta have 1 visible part and 2 more hidden letters
to the 2nd letter you have also the same
the 3rd letter is the gimel an it has 1 visible part and 3 more hidden letters
you need to do that to all the rest of the 22 letters to all the 304805 letters that are in the bible
you will get 539996 hiden letters
Is this your own discovery or did you learn it from someone else? It is very creative, but I find it difficult to believe that the tradition was talking about 600,000 "hidden" letters as opposed to the actual letters written.
Edit to add: I noticed my comment contained an error. I had said "And it seems like your calculations are wrong. Most letter names are spelled with three letters. There are a few exceptions like Hey spelled HA and Vav spelled VV, etc. But in any case, we know that there must be more than 2 x 304,805 = 609,610 hidden letters. So how did you get the number 539996?" I now understand that since some letters have only one "hidden" letter, the average will be less than 2 per letter. So the total will be less than 609,610. Indeed, the average will have to be exactly 539996/304805 = 1.7716. So I presume you got your number 539996 by multiplying the letter frequencies by the number of hidden letters. Do you have a page where you show this calculation? I clicked on the links you posted and got stuff like this:
ביתישלףיןודאויתישלףלףמדאודםםלףאואיןמםודםםאולףאואלף ישץדיאואלףישץדיאודאואאואאואויתאאואויתיןךףיןמד פאנון ודאואאוםםאוישאויתלףמדאודםםמםישיתפאאויןמדפאנוןודאמם ודםםאוודלףמםישלףמדאודםםודאודלףאוישאוודאודלףאו ישאוו דישלףלףמדאודםםלףאואלףאוישכףודתאויתאוודיתלתמדלףמדאו דםםיתודןוןאלףאוישאויתודןוןאיתיןךףאוודוףישלףלף מדאוד םםמדלףאוישודאוםםאומדיתיןךףוףישלףמדודמדאאוודאודיןיש יתאוודאודיתוףישודאוםםלףיתלתאוודלףמםישלףמדאודם םודאו דישוףודיןיתאואוךףאמםודםםאוודאודמםיתלתודמדיתודןוןמם ודםםמדמםודםםאוודיןיןלףמדאודםםלףאואישוףודיןאוו דיתלת מדיתודןוןאמםודםםלףיןישמםאויתאומדישוףודיןאויתודןוןא מםודםםלףיןישמםיןמדמדישוףודיןאוודאודכףןוןאוודו ףישלף לףמדאודםםמדישוףודיןיןמםודםםאוודאודיןישיתאוודאודיתו ףישודאוםםיןנוןודאוודלףמםישלףמדאודםםודוףאואואמ םודםם מםאויתאואיןמםודםםלףמדמםוףאוםםלףיתלתאואוישלףאאודיתי ןאאוודאודכףןוןאוודוףישלףלףמדאודםםמדודיתיןאלףי שץדיא ומדמםוףאואאמםודםםוףישלףודמםודםםאוודישלףלףמדאודםםכף ודתאויתאוודלףמםישלףמדאודםםאולתיןלףאלףישץדילתי ןלףין יןיתמםיןישודיןיןישיןיןץדיפאישודיןיןאפאישודמדמםודנו ןאולףיןישיןישיןאויתאויןמדאלףישץדיאוודאודכףןון אואוא וצדילףאלףישץדילתיןלףיןיןיתמםיןישודיןיןישיןמדמםודנו ןאאואויןץדייןיןאפאישודלףיןישיןישיןאויתאומדמםו דנוןא אואוודישלףלףמדאודםםכףודתאויתאוודאודיןישיתאוודאודית וףישודאוםםיןמדודיןודאוודלףמםישלףמדאודםםודאודמ םלףיש אויתישוףודיןאיןמםודםםמדאיתלתודמדיתודןוןאודאוםםאוית ודןוןאמדודמדאאואודאומדלףאואואומדמםאויןלתודםםא ומדוד מםודםםאויןנוןודםםאואודאומדמםלףאוישאויתישוףודיןאיןמ םודםםמדאלףודישיןמדאלףישץדיאוודאודכףןוןאוודיןי ןלףמד אודםםלףאויןנוןודאמםלףישאואימללתמדודםםלףאואמםלףאויש אימללתמדמדמםמםיןמדאואודאוםםאולףאואמםלףאוישאוף תןוןמ דמםמםיןמדאואמדודמדאאולףאואכףאוכףיתודםםאוודאוןוןלףא וםםלףמדאודםםיתישוףודיןאיןמםודםםמדאלףודישיןמדא לףישץ דיאומדמםיןמדיתודאוםםאויתמדודמדאאומדאיתלתודמדיתודןו ןאלףאוישאויתודןוןאיתיןךףאוודישלףלףמדאודםםכףוד תאוית אוודאודיןישיתאוודאודיתוףישודאוםםישיתודיןודאוודלףמם ישלףמדאודםםודיןישצדיאואמםודםםיןישץדינוןפאיןית ודאאו יןאוףאודיןאופאףאיןמדאלףישץדייןמדפאנוןודישוףודיןאין מםודםםאוודיתישלףלףמדאודםםלףאואאונוןודנוןםםאימ ללתמד ודםםאולףאוכףמדנוןפאיןאיתודאאישמםיןאולףיןישיןישצדיא ואמםודםםמדמםודנוןאםםאולףאוכףמדיןאוףאכףנוןףאמד מםודנ וןאאואוודישלףלףמדאודםם
That's not very helpful. I see it starts with the name bet, and I see many letter names mixed throughout, but there are many letters that are not part of the letter names. What do all those letters represent?
Why not simply multiply the letter frequencies by the number of hidden letters for each letter? For example:
Aleph occurs 27060 times, so there are 27060 x 2 = 54120 hidden letters for aleph.
Bet occurs 16345 times, so there are 16345 x 2 = 32690 hidden letters for bet.
etc. ...
Richard Amiel McGough
11-24-2012, 02:41 PM
i dont know if you are just not reading the entire post i just posted or i am maybe not written it clearly like i should
i said its the hidden letters so you cant do this -> 2 x 304,805 = 609,610
the right calc is this:
גלויות - האות - נסתרות - כמות
27059 - א - לף - 54118
16345 - ב - ית - 32690
2109 - ג - ימל - 6327
7032 - ד - לת - 14064
28056 - ה - א - 28056
30513 - ו - יו - 61026
2198 - ז - ין - 4396
7189 - ח - ית - 14378
1804 - ט - ת - 1804
31531 - י - וד - 63062
8610 - כ - ף - 8610
21570 - ל - מד - 43140
14466 - מ - ם - 14466
9867 - נ - ון - 19734
1833 - ס - מך - 3666
11250 - ע - ין - 22500
3975 - פ - א - 3975
2927 - צ - די - 5854
4695 - ק - וף - 9390
18125 - ר - יש - 36250
15595 - ש - ין - 31190
17950 - ת - יו - 35900
3358 - ך - ף - 3358
10624 - ם - ם - 10624
4259 - ן - ון - 8518
830 - ף - א - 830
1035 - ץ - די - 2070
so you can see not all of them have 2 hidden letters
some have 1 hidden letters and some have even 3
54118 + 32690 + 6327 + 14064 + 28056 + 61026 + 4396 + 14378 + 1804 + 63062 + 8610 + 43140 + 14466 + 19734 + 3666 + 22500 + 3975 + 5854 + 9390 + 36250 + 31190 + 35900 + 3358 + 10624 + 8518 + 830 + 2070 = 539996
אותיות מנצפכ
כמות - אותיות
8610 - כ
3358 - ך
14466 - מ
10624 - ם
9867 - נ
4259 - ן
3975 - פ
830 - ף
2927 - צ
1035 - ץ
59951 - סה"כ
and plus the 53 spacial letters (if you want i can tell you which letters and why they are spacial)
539996 + 59951 + 53 = 600000
Yes, that's what I understood as you can see in my comment (where explained that I had made a mistake, and then corrected it).
It looks like you have done a "trick" to make the numbers work out. Did you count the "hidden letters" for the sofit letters? It looks like you counted only the letters themselves, not the hidden letters like you did with the rest of the letters.
and like i said b4 its not my own "discovery"
it was well known in the past
its written in the old book but it wasn't allowed to talk about it publicly like today
its from the zohar
you can read about it here:
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14248&pgnum=202
מקור: הזוהר הקדוש, שיר השירים, מאמר ב' טעמים ונקודות ואותיות, אות תרסא-תרסב (עמוד 202/382)
its on page 202 / 382
I know that the number 600,000 is not your discovery. I know it is from the Zohar. I was asking about the method of counting the "hidden letters." Is that your discovery?
Richard Amiel McGough
11-24-2012, 03:22 PM
i think you missed the part when i said the "sofit letters" you have to count them twice because they have a long count
in the zorah and the old books its called "על דרך הסוד" i don't know how to translate it to English
i can try and it will come out like "על דרך הסוד" = "the secret way"
meaning the secret way to count them
בעברית חשבון אותיות מנצפ"ך הוא חשבון ארוך ולכן סופרים אותם פעמיים
i hope you can read that line and translate it to English by yourself
I didn't miss it. The problem is that you gave no reason why you should count them twice. Merely saying that it is because it the "secret way" says nothing at all. You could "justify" anything by saying that.
This is why your method looks like a "trick" to make the numbers add up to 600,000.
like i said b4 its not my discovery at all
but i will give you this ... i don't think anyone tried to write all the hidden letters b4 ;)
but no this is not my discovery ^^
like i said it was (well) known in the past ... maybe was forgotten or just became not so common and only few people know about that
this is why we have the old books in case people will forget so it wont get lost
Do you have any evidence that your method was "known in the past"? As far as i can tell from what you have written, it is something that you have invented. Can you quote anyone who ever said that the sofit letters should be added twice? Do you understand why this looks like a trick you just made up? You have given no reason why you should add them twice.
Richard Amiel McGough
11-24-2012, 04:20 PM
i didn't made it up its written in the zohar in the link i gave you
you just don't wanna read it i guess ...
so i did a screenshot and underlined the right places for you
link1: http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/1091/pic1fd.png
link2: http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/7665/pic2uf.png
it says there how to get the "60 rybo" ריבוא = rybo = 10,000
60 ריבוא =
60 x 10,000 =
600,000
this was written b4 my time ^^
Thanks for taking time to specify what you mean. That helps a lot. But I will need your help to translate since the text is not pointed and I'm no expert in Aramaic. When I read the underlined words, I see something like this:
mem is closed and tzaddi is long (stretched). nun, peh, kaph. These letters are multiplied after מנצפכ
I don't know what that is supposed to mean. If you want to make you case, why don't you provide a translation of the underlined passages so I can understand what you think they mean?
As for this text you posted:
meaning the secret way to count them
בעברית חשבון אותיות מנצפ"ך הוא חשבון ארוך ולכן סופרים אותם פעמיים
i hope you can read that line and translate it to English by yourself
When I read those words, I see something like this:
In Hebrew (Aramaic) count letters מנצפ"ך long therefore their numbers are doubled.
OK - Now I need context. What "doubling" were they talking about, and why? Did they give any examples of what they meant? Thanks for taking time to explain, but I still have many questions.
Richard Amiel McGough
11-24-2012, 04:34 PM
i kinda need to go to sleep ^^
its 1.30 am here
i will give you an answer soon ok
i need time to translate it to English
my English is not that good ;)
i just staid up late to answer you a few things so you wont think i am trying to trick you ^^
i am going to sleep now and i will give you an answer tomorrow
Thanks Isaac. I look forward to your comments tomorrow.
Please understand, I didn't think you were trying to trick "me" like a bad thing. I thought that you might be using a method to trick yourself. :winking0071: I've talked with many, many folks who think they have made great discoveries, but upon examination they did not stand up.
Talk more tomorrow. Sleep well!
Richard Amiel McGough
11-25-2012, 09:56 AM
this part in the zohar is talking about 2 diff stuff
1. the 600,000 letters + מנצפ"ך
2. the 60 letters and count to 72
now don't mixed to two together!!!
אלף בית גימל דלת הא וו זין חית טת יוד כף למד מם נון סמך עין פא צדי קוף ריש שית תו = 60
מם + צדי + נון + פא + כף = 12
over all 72 letters
but the וו and תו in Hebrew in the old books written with 3 letters
אלף בית גימל דלת הא ויו זין חית טת יוד כף למד מם נון סמך עין פא צדי קוף ריש שית תיו = 62
אלף בית גימל דלת הא ואו זין חית טת יוד כף למד מם נון סמך עין פא צדי קוף ריש שית תאו = 62
i don't know which one... the first one or the 2nd one
ויו or ואו
תיו or תאו
from what i looked and checked the older version it's not ויו but ואו
and the same goes to the תיו it's not תיו but תאו
this is why in my site i used ואו and תאו
because it should be the oldest way of writing
the key i used is this:
אלף בית גימל דלת הא ואו זין חית טת יוד כף למד מם נון סמך עין פא צדי קוף ריש שית תאו
מם + צדי + נון + פא + כף
this part is also in the same page
you can see that in this pic:
http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/8374/94775040.png
i hope all is clear now :)
first time i think someone talked about it in English ^^
Hey there Isaac,
Thanks! Your explanation really helps. So should we conclude that the calculations you have done are what the scribes did when they came to the conclusion that there are 600,000 letters in the Torah?
Why do you think it is important to know that there are 600,000 letters in the Torah? Why is this fact important?
Have you also found an explanation for the apparent error concerning the middle letter of the Torah stated in Kiddushin 30a?
Great chatting,
Richard
@tommy58103
Maybe this can help you: http://www.torakosmos.de/texts.php
There are links to several versions.
tommy58103
12-29-2012, 10:55 AM
Hi All,
I have finished studying the torah that are on the olivetree.org website and the biblos.com website.
They both seem to use the BHS translation but I have found that olive.org includes both the Qere and the Ketiv words in the text without noting it.
So after taking the Qere words out of the text I get the same count as you did except just 3 letters.*
1)1833 samek the same as aisdas.org
2)4805 pey the same as aisdas.org
3)14126 nun 2 less then yours but 19 more than aisdas.org
So out of 22 Hebrew letters 6 agree with aisdas.org
That leaves 16 that don't agree.
*see attachment for where I found the 6 extra letters in the Torah.
So all the data I gave to you is wrong and should be deleted from these posts and we should start all over again beginning with your chart using the BHS(4th Edition)...and go from there.
I'm going to work on the translation that aisdas.org uses(I think the Sefer Torah) and see where the BHS and their translation differ.
Do you agree that the Ketiv words should only be counted and not the Qere words? Qere words are just an alternative reading, right? and weren't in the original manuscript.
I have found a Samitarian Pentateuch on the internet which has alot more words than the BHS.
Also I think I have found the version that aishdas.org uses and it is known as the Sefer Pentateuch. I have found a free download of it and was going to count letters but it is a pdf that is read only and it will not let me copy and paste to word document to count the letters...So I will have to keep looking for a copy in pdf form that will let me copy and paste or maybe I'll just have to do it by hand which would take me awhile to complete.
I never knew that the Torah had this many translations....I thought the Torah was the Torah and it was pretty well the same everywhere given the stories that I heard about the scribes keeping it without error. If they made one error they would throw the whole manuscript away that they were making. Did you ever hear that also?
I think now that Torah has just as many variations as our Bibles and it is just amounts to your believing which one is the right one.
I have found a Samaritan Pentateuch on the internet that shows in column form the Masoretic text and the Samaritan text side by side.
Go to https://sites.google.com/site/interlinearpentateuch/ and click on downloads and then
download the first download on left side of list.
The sefer Torah can be found and downloaded at http://archive.org/details/nybc201345.
If anyone has found a website that has the Sefer Torah that can be downloaded I'd appreciate it.
Thank-you.
tommy58103
tommy58103
12-29-2012, 11:19 AM
thanks for the websites.
I found a website for the Sefer Torah but it won't let be copy and paste as it is a read-only pdf.
There was another site that wanted money but when I did download the installer all I got was a virus so had to correct that and
not donwload from there.
I would hate to count all the letters by hand.
I see that you have a website indcated that claims to have pictures embedded in Genesis....Cool.
I think I have found the same thing...but thinking you found something does not make it so.Alot of stuff is subjective I know.
Numbers can be found everywhere and mean anything you want them to....but patterns aren't so easy to dismiss.
Patterns can mean intelligence...of course it could be just a coincidence but if its a lot than one pattern then maybe not.
tommy58103
tommy58103
12-29-2012, 02:15 PM
HI Andreas,
I tried to download the texts that were on your reply but they are in a format that I cannot open even though I tried.
I think the Sefer Torah is Yiddish and the Yiddish entries are the ones I think I want.
The Genesis ones are good for starters if I can get the file to open for me.
The Sefer Torah seems to have a different letter count then BHS or the WLC(Westminister Leningrad Codex) which are basically the same.
I am trying to see where they differ and I am also trying to get the most accurate Torah that I can find before I start working on them to see if there is any patterns to the words and letters.
I think I really don't need an absolutely perfect Torah as I think if there are patterns they would eventually show where the letters or athe words were in error. It would be like the manuscript is its own verifier as to what the number of letters or words should be. It would be kinda like a magic square or a Sudoku game where once you know the rules it is solvable by using logic and a little intelligence.
So that is why I'm trying to find a text copy of a Sefer Torah . I do have a pdf copy that is only read-only but I need one where I can copy it to a word document so I can count the letters and worlds.
Thank-you.
tommy58103
tommy58103@yahoo.com
Richard Amiel McGough
12-29-2012, 02:23 PM
Hi All,
I have finished studying the torah that are on the olivetree.org website and the biblos.com website.
They both seem to use the BHS translation but I have found that olive.org includes both the Qere and the Ketiv words in the text without noting it.
So after taking the Qere words out of the text I get the same count as you did except just 3 letters.*
1)1833 samek the same as aisdas.org
2)4805 pey the same as aisdas.org
3)14126 nun 2 less then yours but 19 more than aisdas.org
So out of 22 Hebrew letters 6 agree with aisdas.org
That leaves 16 that don't agree.
*see attachment for where I found the 6 extra letters in the Torah.
Hey there Tommy,
Did they count the inverted nuns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_nun)? There are 9 pairs of them (18) which is curiously close to your count of 19 more than aisdas. Of course, they should not be counted because they are text markers and not parts of words.
So all the data I gave to you is bad and I think deleted as not to add unneeded confusion and start all over again beginning with your chart using the BHS(4th Edition).
I'm going to work on the translation that aisdas.org uses(I think the Sefer Torah) and see where the BHS and their translation differ.
Do you agree that the Ketiv words should only be counted and not the Qere words? Qere words are just an alternative reading, right? and weren't in the original manuscript.
I have found a Samitarian Pentateuch on the internet which has alot more words than the BHS.
Also I think I have found the version that aishdas.org uses and it is known as the Sefer Pentateuch. I have found a free download of it and was going to count letters but it is a pdf that is read only and it will not let me copy and paste to word document to count the letters...So I will have to keep looking for a copy in pdf form that will let me copy and paste or maybe I'll just have to do it by hand which would take me awhile to complete.
Yes, kethiv should be used since it is what is written. But there is a big problem here. The kethiv often appears to be wrong. Probably due to scribal error. But the later scribes didn't feel they could alter the text so they added qere in the margin. Therefore, it seems very unlikely that there is any text of the Torah that could be considered "pure" and fully accurate. That's why this kind of study seems futile to me. When dealing with a text the size of the Torah, in light of all the textual variations (the BHS lists many of them), it seems entirely unreasonable to believe that there is a "valid" Torah scroll. But still, it is an interesting study and I wish we could collect together all varieties of Torah manuscripts available.
I never knew that the Torah had this many translations....I thought the Torah was the Torah and it was pretty well the same everywhere given the stories that I heard about the scribes keeping it without error. If they made one error they would throw the whole manuscript away that they were making. Did you ever hear that also?
Yes, I've heard all sorts of stories, but that kind of hyperbole is pretty hard to believe. Sure, they tried hard to do a good job, but they couldn't even count the number of letters correctly. They thought that the central letter of the Torah (http://dafyomi.co.il/kidushin/insites/kd-dt-030.htm) was the letter Vav of the word 'Gachon' (Lev 11:42) but that is off by about 5000 letters! But note how "nice" it would have been for the "center" of the Torah to be in the word gachon meaning "belly."
I think now that Torah has just as many variations as our Bibles and it is just amounts to your believing which one is the right one.
Probably not "just as much" because the NT mss were copied rather carelessly, but certainly enough to invalidate any assertion that any particular version is the one and only "correct" version.
I have found a Samaritan Pentateuch on the internet that shows in column form the Masoretic text and the Samaritan text side by side.
Go to https://sites.google.com/site/interlinearpentateuch/ and click on downloads and then
download the first download on left side of list.
The sefer Torah can be found and downloaded at http://archive.org/details/nybc201345.
If anyone has found a website that has the Sefer Torah that can be downloaded I'd appreciate it.
Thank-you.
tommy58103
Thanks for the links! Many bees work together to make much honey.
Dear tommy,
the texts are all in plain text format. Open them with a simple text editor. Some of the files are packed with gzip though. Try the second link ( http://www.shamash.org/tanach/tanach/text/transliterated.tanach/ ).
Andreas
tommy58103
12-29-2012, 03:36 PM
Dear Andreas,
I finally succeeded in opening up all the files.Thank-you.Thank-you.Thank-you.
I have a project I have been working on and I do need an 2nd opinion if I am on the right track or not.I've read some of your posts and I know you are thinking on the same track as me but my efforts are in the count of the Hebrew words and letters in the Torah for starters and the whole Hebrew Bible eventually.
I downloaded the Yiddish text from Brendan Mckay's website for Genesis and it looks good. Would you know if there is some place to download the other yiddish texts for the other books of the Torah?
I downloaded all the texts just to do a comparison of the different versions to see where they differ.
The only texts I need now are the Sefer Torah(Yiddish) texts of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.
I'm having trouble downloading a Yiddish Torah off of the Internet. There is one site that does have it but the site is not safe to download from.
Thank-you for your help.
tommy58103
tommy58103
01-09-2013, 03:10 PM
Dear Richard,
I love this website and I want to thank-you for starting it. Its great to share ideas and search for Truth.
I have been studying Psalm 119 and the patterns it forms by starting each group of 8 verses with a different Hebrew letter.I could run it past you since you are very astute in these matters I think that sometimes you are a little too harsh to the people on this site....bur it is probably necessary in some circumstances. Some people do have theories that are not logical...including me and they need some help from others to point out the inconsistencies in their thinking.
thank-you.
tommy58103
tommy58103@yahoo.com
Richard Amiel McGough
01-09-2013, 03:19 PM
Dear Richard,
I love this website and I want to thank-you for starting it. Its great to share ideas and search for Truth.
I have been studying Psalm 119 and the patterns it forms by starting each group of 8 verses with a different Hebrew letter.I could run it past you since you are very astute in these matters I think but sometimes a little too harsh on the people on this site....but maybe some people may need some extra chastisement before they relinquish their crazy ideas.You have to tell them the truth and sometimes it may not be what they are expecting and is not nice to hear.
I may have a crazy idea and I'd welcome your expertise and educated judgment of what I am attempting. Maybe I am just on a wild goose chase and just wasting my time in doing what I think may be a worthy pursuit...You could then head me off and save me a lot of work for nothing.
Should I detail it here or would you prefer for me to do it using you email address.
I probably should have some input before I elaborate too much and bore people with my thoughts and ideas.
thank-you.
tommy58103
tommy58103@yahoo.com
Hey there Tommy,
Thanks for the good words. I know some of my interactions became a little harsh. In hindsight I would perhaps do some things differently. For example, when a person proves beyond all doubt that they cannot be rational I should just drop it and not demand that they do what they obviously cannot do. I guess I just think a little too highly of some folks and assume that they are like me and would always answer questions with truth to the best of their abilities. Maybe that's one of my character flaws. :winking0071:
But in truth, I treat others exactly as I would want to be treated.
As for your work on the alphabetic structure of Psalm 119 - I would be delighted to discuss it with you here in this thread. Don't worry about me "judging" your ideas harshly. My wrath only comes down when I encounter direct irrationality and/or blatant dishonesty. I have no illusion of having all the answers and I'm totally open to new ideas. Of course, I will speak my mind plainly, so it is possible that I could "pop your bubble" if your ideas are not well grounded.
I look forward to seeing what you have discovered.
Richard
duxrow
01-10-2013, 01:51 PM
:idea: Scuse please -- my interest is with comparing acrostic 22 to any connection with 44.
The Alphabet Psalm 119 is well known as the longest psalm in the Bible; its 176 verses quickly calculated as 8x22 or 4x44, with no apparent connection to our modern emergency phone number 911, or the catastrophe of the Twin Towers in New York on 9/11/01 while George Bush was President. :signthankspin:
Richard Amiel McGough
01-11-2013, 01:31 PM
:idea: Scuse please -- my interest is with comparing acrostic 22 to any connection with 44.
The Alphabet Psalm 119 is well known as the longest psalm in the Bible; its 176 verses quickly calculated as 8x22 or 4x44, with no apparent connection to our modern emergency phone number 911, or the catastrophe of the Twin Towers in New York on 9/11/01 while George Bush was President. :signthankspin:
Hey Ho, Duxrow! :yo:
The division of Psalm 119 into 8 x 22 follows its structure because there are 22 stanzas each containing 8 verses that start with the same Hebrew letter. I don't see any connection with 4 x 44 because the psalm is not structured that way.
As for 911 - I can see that is 119 backwards, but why would anyone think to associate that with the destruction of the Twin Towers? And George W. Bush was the 43rd, not the 44th president, so he doesn't fit the pattern.
What exactly are you trying to say?
duxrow
01-11-2013, 02:33 PM
Hey Ho, Duxrow! :yo:
The division of Psalm 119 into 8 x 22 follows its structure because there are 22 stanzas each containing 8 verses that start with the same Hebrew letter. I don't see any connection with 4 x 44 because the psalm is not structured that way.
Too bad, was hoping you had access to a version showing a 44x4 pattern -- something like a "final four" featuring Jacob/Joseph/Mary/Jesus.
As for 911 - I can see that is 119 backwards, but why would anyone think to associate that with the destruction of the Twin Towers? And George W. Bush was the 43rd, not the 44th president, so he doesn't fit the pattern.
The two (2) G.W.Bushes relate to the GW (1st Prez) -- the kind of curios coincidence seen in many places, even the gematria..
What exactly are you trying to say?
:woah:Why, indeed? Could belong to those "THINGS WE DON'T KNOW WE DON'T KNOW..." :winking0071:
http://www.cswnet.com/~duxrow/acrostic.htm#wh44
Richard Amiel McGough
01-11-2013, 03:05 PM
:woah:Why, indeed? Could belong to those "THINGS WE DON'T KNOW WE DON'T KNOW..." :winking0071:
http://www.cswnet.com/~duxrow/acrostic.htm#wh44
Hey there Bob,
I copied our last three posts to a new thread since it they are off-topic here. The thread is called What is the connection between Psalm 119, 9/11, the Twin Towers, Bush, and Obama? (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?3556-What-is-the-connection-between-Psalm-119-9-11-the-Twin-Towers-Bush-and-Obama)
Let's continue the conversation there.
:focus:
Richard Amiel McGough
01-13-2013, 04:15 PM
hi guys
i don't know if you will like it or not
but i will share it with you none the less :P
i upload a new files today that auto covert the torah to 600000 hidden letters
i am using a file called "t.js" as the DB
you can find it here: http://torah.125mb.com/t.js
its insert all the torah to a big 2D Array
this way the lines words and letters are all ready for you in the memory so you can search in a much easier way
this is the page that will auto covert the 304,805 letters to the 600,000 hidden ones
http://torah.125mb.com/t.html
you can check out the source code of the html page
i hope you guys will like it
i just finish that one today :)
Hey there Isaac,
Thanks for the info. I'll check it out as time permits.
All the best,
Richard
Richard Amiel McGough
01-15-2013, 07:57 PM
Dear Richard,
By running my BASIC program I got the following graphic output. I assigned colors to the 22 letters of the Hebrew alphabet not randomly but starting with red and ending with purple using black for the final letter.
I know that picking out images in a bunch of pixels is very subjective and varies with each person's perception and perspective. I don't give a lot credence to it unless it happens more than chance would allow. I just thought it was an interesting coincidence but I do know that I would have different results if I used different colors. It just happened that the colors I chose made this image. Maybe only proves that one has to be careful in making a great deal out of coincidence. I thought it was just interesting that it turned out this way. What do you think?
I'm still working on my Torah letter count and I still need a pdf file of a Yiddish(Sefer) Torah to work with If anybody knows a website where I can obtain a copy I'd appreciate it. Thank-you.
tommy58103.
Hey there Tommy,
I think it's great to explore different methods of data representation. What pattern of interest do you see in that picture? Nothing leaped out at me. Perhaps a larger version would help?
All the best,
Richard
tommy58103
01-16-2013, 08:37 AM
Hey there Tommy,
I think it's great to explore different methods of data representation. What pattern of interest do you see in that picture? Nothing leaped out at me. Perhaps a larger version would help?
All the best,
Richard
I was hoping you could see something at the very top.
If I point out what I see then I will have influenced you to see what I see.
Ok. The images are at the very top.
The first image is a young boy at the very top right side.
The second image is right below and a little to the left of first image and is a face of a man.
There are 7 colors and by assigning a color to each letter you would get a rainbow using the first letter of each verse.
I was hoping that the rainbow would run horizontally with the image right below the rainbow. But that was not the case.
I only found the image with the verses running vertically with the rainbow along the left edge.
tommy58103
tommy58103
Richard Amiel McGough
01-16-2013, 08:59 AM
I was hoping you could see something at the very top.
If I point out what I see then I will have influenced you to see what I see.
Ok. The images are at the very top.
The first image is a young boy at the very top right side.
The second image is right below and a little to the left of first image and is a face of a man.
There are 7 colors and by assigning a color to each letter you would get a rainbow using the first letter of each verse.
I was hoping that the rainbow would run horizontally with the image right below the rainbow. But it didn't.
tommy58103
tommy58103
Ah ... faces. Our brains are programmed to recognize faces. They are the most common things seen in random data. It's called pareidolia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia): a psychological phenomenon involving a vague and random stimulus (often an image or sound) being perceived as significant. Common examples include seeing images of animals or faces in clouds, the man in the moon or the Moon rabbit, and hearing hidden messages on records when played in reverse.
tommy58103
01-22-2013, 07:44 PM
Hi, Everyboy,
I have finished counting the letters using Isaac's files and I've included them in an attachment.I've tried to copy and paste the excel document directly to this window but I couldn't. It copies but it does not have grid lines.
Aishdas.org's count is way off in some letters especially the tsadi. Since x is used in for-loops in computer programs I am assuming that they made a mistake in using a x variable in their computer program if they used a computer program to count the letters instead of using microsoft word.I tried to contact them thru their website but it appears that they can't be contacted thru their website in order to see what text they used to get their results.
Isaac's count matches mine except I have 20 more vavs and 25 more yods. If the yods and the vavs can be added and omitted at any place in the text then we will never arrive at a true count.
His total count does match up with aishdas's total count of 304805 letters which means we are maybe getting somewhere in finding the true torah.
My total count is 45 off since I have 45 letters(20 vavs+25 yods) more than Isaac's.I'll have to do a word comparison and see where the added vavs and yods are located in the Torah.
The totals for the letters that have final forms are the same but there appears to be disagreements on how the letters should be represented when they occur at the end of a word...I always thought that a certain letter took a different form if it appeared at the end of a word, but apparently not according to byblos.com.
Take care
Thank-you.
tommy58103
P.S.
Now with the expanded Torah of Isaac's where he uses the name of the letter itself to arrive at 600000 letters, do you think we should check that count out and see what those totals are?
Have you ever heard of a guy named Gustav Mahler who takes and reads the Hebrew backward to get it to make sense. I dont't know how he would do it if he would skip certain letters or not. He has written a book about it. And if you can read the Hebrew the same forward and backwards then that would double the letters and would come close to the 600000 letters that some people think the Torah actually has (304805+304805=609610). Do you think this has any validity?
Richard Amiel McGough
01-22-2013, 08:27 PM
Hi, Everyboy,
I have finished counting the letters using Isaac's files and I've included them in an attachment.I've tried to copy and paste the excel document directly to this window but I couldn't. It copies but it does not have grid lines.
Aishdas.org's count is way off in some letters especially the tsadi. Since x is used in for loops in computer programs I am assuming that they made a mistake in using a x variable in their computer program if they used a program to count the letters instead of using microsft word.I tried to contact them thru their website but it appears that they can't be contacted thru their website to see what text they used to get thier totals.
Isaac's count matches mine ecept I have 20 more vavs and 25 more yods. If the yods and the vavs can be added and omitted at any place they want then we will never arrive at t a true count.
His toal count does match up with aishdas's total count of 304805 letters which means we are on the right track maybe.
My total count is 45 off since I have 45 letters(20 vavs+25 yods) more than Isaac's.I'll have to do a word comparison and see where the added vavs and yods are located in the Torah.
the Torals for the letters that have final forms are the same but there appears to be disagreements on how the letters should be represented when they occur at the end of a word...I always thought that if a certain letters appeared at the end of the end of a word then it would take a different form....apparently not.
Take care
Thank-you.
tommy58103
P.S.
Now with the expanded Torah of Isaac's where he uses the name of the letter itself to arrive at 600000 letters, do you think we should check that count out and see what those totals are?
Hve you ever heard of a guy named Gustav Mahler who takes and reads the Hebrew backward to get it to make sense. I dont't know how he would do it if he would skip certain letters or not. He has written a book about it. And if you can read the Hebrew the same forward and backwards then that would double the letters and would come close to the 600000 letters that some people think the Torah actually has.Do you think this has any validity?
Hi Tommy,
Thanks for the info. When you paste the table, it doesn't show the grid lines. You need to click on any cell in the table to give it focus, and then click on the second icon in the bottom row of the tool bar in the editor (the table properties). This pops up the "Table Properties" dialog where you can select "Full Grid" under the Table Style dropdown. I did it for you below.
I had never heard of Gustav Muhler, but I found his book on Amazon: The Sealed Book of Daniel Revealed: The Linear Bible Code (http://www.amazon.com/The-Sealed-Book-Daniel-Revealed/dp/0977303209). I found a Mormon site that discusses it here (http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=19&num=1&id=648&cat_id=118). Apparently the author was once a Mormon. The reviewer says that "sometimes Mahler's renderings of the "back text" press the boundaries of clear sense." That's not too surprising. If I had to guess, I would say it is probably nothing but a testament to how folks with sufficient motivation and dedication can force a text to say whatever they want.
theirs
yours
mine
mine
mine
my diff
our diff
isaac's
isaac's diff
from mine
isaac's diff
from
mine
Aishdas.org total
BHS 4th Ed total
BHS/
aisdas.org diff
Letter
Final Letter
Total
Total
Letter diff
Final Letter diff
27057
27060
3
27060
27060
3
27059
-1
16344
16345
1
16345
16345
1
16345
0
2109
2109
0
2109
2109
0
2109
0
7032
7032
0
7032
7032
0
7032
0
28052
28055
3
28055
28055
3
28056
1
30509
30533
24
30533
30533
24
30513
-20
2198
2198
0
2198
2198
0
2198
0
7187
7189
2
7189
7189
2
7189
0
1802
1804
2
1804
1804
2
1804
0
31522
31556
34
31556
31556
34
31531
-25
11960
11968
8
8560
3408
11968
8
8610
3358
11968
50
-50
21570
21570
0
21570
21570
0
21570
0
25078
25090
12
14372
10718
25090
12
14466
10624
25090
94
-94
14107
14128
21
9778
4348
14126
19
-2
9867
4259
14126
89
-89
1833
1836
3
1833
1833
0
-3
1833
0
11244
11250
6
11250
11250
6
11250
0
4805
4806
1
3974
831
4805
0
-1
3975
830
4805
1
-1
4052
3962
-90
2925
1037
3962
-90
2927
1035
3962
2
-2
4694
4695
1
4695
4695
1
4695
0
18109
18125
16
18125
18125
16
18125
0
15592
15595
3
15595
15595
3
15595
0
17949
17950
1
17950
17950
1
17950
0
304805
304856
51
304850
45
-6
304805
-45
Richard Amiel McGough
02-28-2013, 11:35 AM
Hi Tommy,
Thanks for the info. When you paste the table, it doesn't show the grid lines. You need to click on any cell in the table to give it focus, and then click on the second icon in the bottom row of the tool bar in the editor (the table properties). This pops up the "Table Properties" dialog where you can select "Full Grid" under the Table Style dropdown. I did it for you below.
I had never heard of Gustav Muhler, but I found his book on Amazon: The Sealed Book of Daniel Revealed: The Linear Bible Code (http://www.amazon.com/The-Sealed-Book-Daniel-Revealed/dp/0977303209). I found a Mormon site that discusses it here (http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=19&num=1&id=648&cat_id=118). Apparently the author was once a Mormon. The reviewer says that "sometimes Mahler's renderings of the "back text" press the boundaries of clear sense." That's not too surprising. If I had to guess, I would say it is probably nothing but a testament to how folks with sufficient motivation and dedication can force a text to say whatever they want.
theirs
yours
mine
mine
mine
my diff
our diff
isaac's
isaac's diff
from mine
isaac's diff
from
mine
Aishdas.org total
BHS 4th Ed total
BHS/
aisdas.org diff
Letter
Final Letter
Total
Total
Letter diff
Final Letter diff
27057
27060
3
27060
27060
3
27059
-1
16344
16345
1
16345
16345
1
16345
0
2109
2109
0
2109
2109
0
2109
0
7032
7032
0
7032
7032
0
7032
0
28052
28055
3
28055
28055
3
28056
1
30509
30533
24
30533
30533
24
30513
-20
2198
2198
0
2198
2198
0
2198
0
7187
7189
2
7189
7189
2
7189
0
1802
1804
2
1804
1804
2
1804
0
31522
31556
34
31556
31556
34
31531
-25
11960
11968
8
8560
3408
11968
8
8610
3358
11968
50
-50
21570
21570
0
21570
21570
0
21570
0
25078
25090
12
14372
10718
25090
12
14466
10624
25090
94
-94
14107
14128
21
9778
4348
14126
19
-2
9867
4259
14126
89
-89
1833
1836
3
1833
1833
0
-3
1833
0
11244
11250
6
11250
11250
6
11250
0
4805
4806
1
3974
831
4805
0
-1
3975
830
4805
1
-1
4052
3962
-90
2925
1037
3962
-90
2927
1035
3962
2
-2
4694
4695
1
4695
4695
1
4695
0
18109
18125
16
18125
18125
16
18125
0
15592
15595
3
15595
15595
3
15595
0
17949
17950
1
17950
17950
1
17950
0
304805
304856
51
304850
45
-6
304805
-45
Hey Tommy,
Where does your research stand? Have you found anything to resolve all these contradictions between the different versions of the Torah? I ask because people are blindly following the Aishdas numbers to find "patterns" that don't exist in any version I've actually seen. We're discussing this over in the thread An interesting website of gematria and such (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?3610-An-interesting-website-of-gematria-and-such&p=52473#post52473).
Richard
tommy58103
02-28-2013, 11:32 PM
Hi, Richard,
I am still searching for the Perfect Torah which may be impossible to find. But I think there has to be a Torah that has the right number of letters and words.
I took Isaac's data in first chart and revised it by assigning a letter to each symbol.See attached file.
Isaac's Torah and mine just differ in the number of yods and vavs. I think that the WLC version I used from biblos.com website has the extra 25 yods and 20 vavs in error and I am inclined to accept Isaac's numbers as the right ones. Aishdas.org does have the same total number of letters as Isaac but some of their totals for the individual letters are are not the same as Isaac's and mine.
I still am trying to find out what version that aishdas.org is using and how they can have so many different totals since thy are supposed to have the most accurate Torah. I contacted them by email and I am waiting for their reply.
I also counted the letters in Isaac's second chart that is supposed to contain his 600000 Hebrew letters. But I'm not going to pursue this angle to the total letter count since I don't believe that the count should include the name of the letter. I still think that we should be using the letter itself. See attached file. What do you think?
P.S.
I have finally found a Sefer Torah on the Internet but I am not sure if that is the Torah Aishdas.org uses or not.
The site that has the Sefer Torah is:
http://opensiddur.org/2012/01/%D7%AA%D7%A0%D7%B4%D7%9A-yehoyeshs-yiddish-translation-of-the-tanakh/
Thank-you.
tommy58103
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