When you see all these things, know that it is near-at the door

[TheForgiven]

Greetings my fellow students of God's word.

I'd like to bring up a point I mentioned in the past, but was not covered a great deal.

Jesus states the following in Matthew 24:


32 'Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

The Apostles were given an explanation of what to expect, and what things they would witness before the destruction of the temple would come. After Christ gives them all the signs to look for, then the coming of Jesus would be "at the door".

Futurist's argue that the "Fig Tree" is a symbol of Israel's rebirth, which they ascribe to the mid 20th century. For one, there's no solid proof to suggest that the "Fig Tree" represents Israel's rebirth as that idea had absolutly nothing to do with the context of Matthew 23 or 24. The entire discussion was centered on the Abomination of Desolation which would lead to the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem. So considering the discussion began with the destruction of the temple, how can Futurist's justify another desruction well into their (Apoistles) future, which had nothing to do with the original topic?

Additionally, we must also consider the phrase, "This generation shall not pass.." This has been discussed plenty of times, so I won't focus my point on "This Generation". However, notice the phrase "At the Door"? This is key because "at the door" also defines "This generation". For Jesus not only says that the signs would be an indication of His return being "at the door", but he signifies something more astonishing by stating that "This gernation wouldn't pass untill all these things were [at the door] fulfilled.

Now, can I prove that His return was "at the door" in the first century? You bet I can.


44.James 5:9
Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!

James in the first century warns his flock not to grumble against each other. Why? Because the "Judge", being Jesus of course, was AT THE DOOR. And if you read James from the beginning, you will see that he was discussing these things with his fellow Jews of the flesh. For he writes to the 12 Tribes of Israel. He also warns them of the pending destruction getting ready to fall upon them.



James 5:
1 Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries that are coming upon you! 2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth-eaten. 3 Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up treasure in the last days. 4 Indeed the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, cry out; and the cries of the reapers have reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth. 5 You have lived on the earth in pleasure and luxury; you have fattened your hearts as in a day of slaughter. 6 You have condemned, you have murdered the just; he does not resist you.

This warning was directed at the Jews.

So, how can the Futurist explain this? How can you resolve the problem of claiming Jesus's return wouldn't be until our time, when He would be "at the door" if James stated He (Jesus) was already at the door in the first century?

It's proven through scripture that Jesus did in fact come in the first century. It's a proven fact that Jesus did judge (as James states) the first century Jews. It's a proven fact that "their generation" passed when all of those things were fulfilled.

The ball is now in your court to DISPROVE the facts I have just provided.

Sound off Church! :pray:

Joe

[joel]

Dear Joe,

If you say that the judgment upon Jerusalem, occurring in 70A.D. is the culmination of God's judgments........then, you are saying that there will be no more judging.

If you say that the tribulation occurring at that time was the culmination of the tribulations........i.e. the great tribulation which is the greatest of all since the world began...................then, you are saying that there will be no more tribulation to match that........is this what you are saying?

The verb used in the verse, Matthew 24:34, which is translated in the version you quoted for "take place".....what is that verb?

Is it the same verb which is used in other places as "fulfilled", i.e. pleroo?

Joel

[CWH]

Is the fig tree not Israel? See for yourself:

The word "fig" is mentioned in the Scriptures sixty-four times. THUS SAITH THE LORD, THE GOD OF ISRAEL; LIKE THESE GOOD FIGS, SO WILL I ACKNOWLEDGE THEM THAT ARE CARRIED AWAY CAPTIVE OF JUDAH, WHOM I HAVE SENT OUT OF THIS PLACE INTO THE LAND OF THE CHALDEANS FOR THEIR GOOD-Jere 24:5. We see the word "figs," being used to represent the Jews that are carried away.

THE LORD SHOWED ME, AND, BEHOLD, TWO BASKETS OF FIGS...ONE BASKET HAD VERY GOOD FIGS, EVEN LIKE THE FIGS THAT ARE FIRST RIPE: AND THE OTHER BASKET HAD VERY NAUGHTY FIGS, WHICH COULD NOT BE EATEN, THEY WERE SO BAD. THEN SAID THE LORD UNTO ME, WHAT SEEST THOU, JEREMIAH? AND I SAID, FIGS; THE GOOD FIGS, VERY GOOD; AND THE EVIL, VERY EVIL, THAT CANNOT BE EATEN, THEY ARE SO EVIL. AGAIN THE WORD OF THE LORD CAME UNTO ME, SAYING, THUS SAITH THE LORD, THE GOD OF ISRAEL; LIKE THESE GOOD FIGS, SO WILL I ACKNOWLEDGE THEM THAT ARE CARRIED AWAY CAPTIVE OF JUDAH, WHOM I HAVE SENT OUT OF THIS PLACE INTO THE LAND OF THE CHALDEANS FOR THEIR GOOD. FOR I WILL SET MINE EYES UPON THEM FOR GOOD, AND I WILL BRING THEM AGAIN TO THIS LAND: AND I WILL BUILD THEM, AND NOT PULL THEM DOWN; AND I WILL PLANT THEM, AND NOT PLUCK THEM UP. AND I WILL GIVE THEM A HEART TO KNOW ME, THAT I AM THE LORD: AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE, AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD: FOR THEY SHALL RETURN UNTO ME WITH THEIR WHOLE HEART. AND AS THE EVIL FIGS, WHICH CANNOT BE EATEN, THEY ARE SO EVIL-Jere 24:1-8. The word "figs" is used here eight times denoting the Jews.

NOW IN THE MORNING AS HE RETURNED INTO THE CITY, HE HUNGERED. AND WHEN HE SAW A FIG TREE IN THE WAY, HE CAME TO IT, AND FOUND NOTHING THEREON, BUT LEAVES ONLY, AND SAID UNTO IT, LET NO FRUIT GROW ON THEE HENCEFORWARD FOR EVER. AND PRESENTLY THE FIG TREE WITHERED AWAY-Mt 21:18,19; ref Mk 11:12-14,20,21. The fig tree withered away, as it was producing no fruit. It may be noted that the word "fig" here represents Israel, and the word "tree" represents nation.

The nation of Israel did wither and was destroyed. Nevertheless, the nation of Israel was reborn and will fulfill God’s mission during the Tribulation.

See my post which I have discussed with Carrie a few months ago:

32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[d]is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation[e] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Now, what does "fig tree" means? what does "twigs get tender and leaves come out" means? what does "summer is near" means? If you can understand what it means then, you will understand what "this generation" was He talking about.

What it means in my own interpretation is this:
Now learn this, when you see Israel (fig tree) got its independence (twigs get tender and leaves come out) in May 14, 1948, you will know that summer is near (summer in UK starts from May 15, and generally in the Northern hemisphere, summer starts in June). Truly, I tell you, this generation (those who was born during Israel's independence) will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Many Blessings to all.

[TheForgiven]

Dear Joe,

If you say that the judgment upon Jerusalem, occurring in 70A.D. is the culmination of God's judgments........then, you are saying that there will be no more judging.

Of course not. The judgment in 70AD was God's final judgment in His dealing with Israel of the flesh; the false Israel that is. But nations are judged within each generation, with a Rod of iron. The "Rod" is a symbol of discipline. If Christ is yet to reign, which Futurist's insist is during a literal 1000 year reign, then why would Christ need a "Rod" to discipline a race of people living during a time frame where sin would not exist? If Satan is locked away during the thousand years to protect the nations from being deceived, then aren't we also to assume that sinners would not exist? In this case, the "Rod" is not required. Unless of course we expect sinners to abide as well. But if that's true, then why would Christ have to rule on a literal throne, sitting in literal Israel, ruling all the nations with a Rod? This presumes a false theory that God cannot rule nations unless He is physically present for all to see.

Another point regarding the 1000 years. If Satan is locked away, and you believe sinners will still exist, then how can sinning still be happening during the thousand years if Satan is locked away? Isn't Satan the one always blamed for today's sinners? Don't the Futurist's claim that the reason why Christ is proven not to be reigning is because sin still exists in our day? Therefore, what's the difference between sinnders now, and sinners during the 1000 years? If Satan is being blamed for sinners existing today, then who's to blame if sinners exist during the 1000 years? If sinners won't exist during the 1000 years, then why would Christ need a Rod of Iron to discipline the nations?


If you say that the tribulation occurring at that time was the culmination of the tribulations........i.e. the great tribulation which is the greatest of all since the world began...................then, you are saying that there will be no more tribulation to match that........is this what you are saying?

That is correct. The Tribulation upon Israel of the flesh will never happen again. Of course some cling to the events of Hitler, but that was a persecution of Euripean Jews; they were not representative of Israel. And scripture never says that men would not suffer Tribulation. Rather Israel of the flesh would never suffer Tribulation as it did in the first century.


The verb used in the verse, Matthew 24:34, which is translated in the version you quoted for "take place".....what is that verb?

Is it the same verb which is used in other places as "fulfilled", i.e. pleroo?

Joel

Let's see what Young's literal translation states:

34 Verily I say to you, this generation may not pass away till all these may come to pass.

Sounds the same to me. Take place could be slightly different than "come to pass" but they are stating the same thing. When something is "coming to pass", it is in effect, taking place. Both mean the same.

How do you read/interpret it? :winking0071:

Joe

[TheForgiven]

Now, what does "fig tree" means? what does "twigs get tender and leaves come out" means? what does "summer is near" means? If you can understand what it means then, you will understand what "this generation" was He talking about.

Yes I understand it pretty well, if you don't mind me saying. The events Jesus just described is a picture of "Spring". When Spring comes, all the plants and trees begin to bloom. This is an indication that summer is near. Jesus used these figures to show that the events which were to happen over Israel prior to the destruction of the temple, were indications of labor pains in a woman. As horrible as a woman suffers before giving birth, as soon as the baby is born, all the previous troubles are soon forgotten.

Now the question you must answer is, what did Jesus mean when He explained that the Tribulation had to happen, for those are the beginnings of sorrows (birth pains)? What was about to be born? The Apostles labored to complete the mission they were given. Now it was time for the young lady (infant church) to become a full grown woman. After all, Christ cannot marry a young girl; she had to be fully matured. This is the same woman shown in John's Revelation. The woman is the lambs wife.


What it means in my own interpretation is this:
Now learn this, when you see Israel (fig tree) got its independence (twigs get tender and leaves come out) in May 14, 1948, you will know that summer is near (summer in UK starts from May 15, and generally in the Northern hemisphere, summer starts in June). Truly, I tell you, this generation (those who was born during Israel's independence) will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Many Blessings to all.

The problem with this interpretation is it's out of context. Matthew 23-24 was not centered on Israel's rebirth, but Israel's destruction. This destruction would lead to giving birth to the wife of Christ. Who is the wife? The Church. If the Church is referred to as the Lamb's wife, then what does this have to do with a theoretical rebirth of Israel of the flesh, specifically in 1948? Are they the lambs wife? If so, please explain.

Furthermore, how can you prove that Israel was reborn in 1948? Is that even Israel? Is Israel defined by a flag, or a map? Or by our spirits?

The entire context of Matthew 23-24 centered on the destruction of the temple, and the signs of the temple's coming destruction. Those very signs represented "Spring", thereby indicating that what was about to happen would be very close. Thus, how much sense does it make to ascribe nearly all of Matthew 23 and 24 to the destruction of the temple, and then end in a single paragraph with a time-frame jumping more than 2000 years into the future?

The interpretation you've provided is out of context, and thus not correct. The contextual understanding of the "Fig Tree" is not a rebirth of Israel, but a destruction getting ready to happen. So when He says, "When YOU (Apostles) see all these things begin to happen, lift up your heads for your redemption draws near...", that is the same thing He states in Matthew 24.

Finally, you did not recognize the proven point. The "Fig Tree" means that Jesus is at the door. But didn't James state that He was at the door in the first century? Since James did state that Jesus was at the door to His judgment upon Israel of the flesh, then how can Futurist's claim that Jesus is at the door today, since 1948? Has Jesus been standing by the door for 2000years? :confused:

God's peace and mercy to us all.

Joe

Joe

[basilfo]

Is the fig tree not Israel?

What it means in my own interpretation is this:
Now learn this, when you see Israel (fig tree) got its independence (twigs get tender and leaves come out) in May 14, 1948, you will know that summer is near (summer in UK starts from May 15, and generally in the Northern hemisphere, summer starts in June). Truly, I tell you, this generation (those who was born during Israel's independence) will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Many Blessings to all.

Cheow,
With all due respect, Jesus' parable has nothing to do with English calendar seasonal dates.

Why would you force a different meaning on "this generation" in Matt 24:34 than the one in Matt 23:36 which is clearly "this generation" alive at the time Jesus spoke His words?

Matt 23:36 "Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Are you aware that the parallel passage written by Luke says; "the fig tree and all the trees"?

Luke 21:28 "Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."
29 Then He spoke to them a parable: "[COLOR="Red"]Look at the fig tree, and all the trees. 30 "When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near.
31 "So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near.
32 "Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place.

If the fig tree is Israel, and "budding" means some sort of rebirth of that nation, then "and all the trees" must mean that ALL the nations were reborn also at the time you believe Israel was. It just doesn't work.

Many times we read such complexity into simple texts. IMHO, Jesus was giving a simple timing parable - nothing more: When the buds come forth on all the trees, everyone knows that summer is close. So when they would see these signs He just detailed,
1. the kingdom of God was near (according to Luke), or
2. it is near - at the doors (they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.) (according to Matthew and Mark)

Different ways to describe the same event.

Peace to you,
Dave

[CWH]

If someone were to tell that he is waiting at the door, I would expect it to be a very short time, a few hours to a few days and not 40 years!

32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[d]is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation[e] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

If someone is waiting "Right at the door" means waiting to come in. If the enemy is waiting right at the border means it is waiting for an opportune time or the command to attack.

Can you prove that this generation refers to this generation of Jesus time and not the generation of another time? Note that all the apostles passed away before AD 70 when the Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed, then how come Jesus said this generation will not passed away? Is a generation 40 years or 80 years, 100 years or 120 years or just an age not defined by the number of years just like the computer age?

Will Heaven and earth pass away, preterists? If not, why did Jesus said Heaven and earth will pass away?


Just to answer Joe:

The Rod that protruded from Jesus mouth is the Word of God; remember the white horse horseman of Revelation 19 : 11. The rod is to discipline the world. The elect will re-populate during the millenium and after the millenium is over, Satan must be let loose to test those living in the millenium so as to refine the generations of the elects. Such testing will show how sincere and faithful is the generation of the elect after the millenium to God. This happened also with Noah's descendants whom God saw as righteous and they re-populated the world after the Great Flood have destroyed the world.

God have the habit of refining people:

Psalm 66:10
For you, O God, tested us; you refined us like silver.

Isaiah 48:10
See, I have refined you, though not as silver; I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.

Jeremiah 9:7
Therefore this is what the LORD Almighty says: "See, I will refine and test them, for what else can I do because of the sin of my people?

Daniel 11:35
Some of the wise will stumble, so that they may be refined, purified and made spotless until the time of the end, for it will still come at the appointed time.

Daniel 12:10
Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.

Zechariah 13:9
This third I will bring into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, 'They are my people,' and they will say, 'The LORD is our God.' "

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner's fire or a launderer's soap.

Malachi 3:3
He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver. Then the LORD will have men who will bring offerings in righteousness,

1 Peter 1:7
These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.

Many Blessings.

[gregoryfl]

If someone were to tell that he is waiting at the door, I would expect it to be a very short time, a few hours to a few days and not 40 years!

Hey Cheow,

I think everyone here would agree with that. If Peter wrote that statement in his epistle in 30 AD, then yes, that would possibly be a problem. Since he wrote it very shortly before his death, most likely between 65 and 68, since he was crucified under Nero's reign.

And as for showing which generation he was referring to, let me simply state two possible ways Jesus could have referred to the generation:

"Truly I say to you, THAT generation will not pass away until all these things come to pass."

"Truly I say to you, that THIS generation will not pass away until all these things come to pass."

Which to you describes a possible future generation, and which describes the generation existing at the time Jesus said the words? The little Greek word "houtos" meaning "this", gives us the clue we need to identify without question which he is referring to. I will leave it to you to come to the conclusion yourself.

Ron

[CWH]

Hi greg,

I don't get it, Peter did not write the verses of Matthew 24 : 32. The Gospel of Matthew was written in probably in AD 30s and all the apostles died before AD 70 except perhaps John. That means they have no chance of seeing the destruction of Jerusalem or the preterist's "second coming". They have no chance of being "this generation" to witness all those things....poor guys.:D

It is a known fact that "this" can be used as "that" depending on how you use it. The contention lies in the interpretations of "This" and "That"; "generation" and "age" how many years is a generation. The contention is also about the word "right at the door". To me "right at the door" does not necessary means very near, it may mean that someone is waiting for an opportune time for someone to open the door. He can stand at the door but if someone did not open the door, he will still be standing there. It reminds me of Revelation 3 :20,

"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.


Let's look at the verses in Matthew 24 again:

Matthew24:32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[d]is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation[e] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

As the preterists say, symbolic verses must use symbolic interpretations. The fig tree is symbolic for the nation of Israel, so are the twigs and leaves which seems to suggest something young and developing. "Summer is near" suggests a period when something is about to mature into fruitation. Heaven and earth will pass away?....Heaven and earth will never pass away.

Mind you, I am a preterist-futurist not a full futurist.

Many Blessings.

[Victor]

Are you aware that the parallel passage written by Luke says; "the fig tree and all the trees"?

Luke 21:28 "Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."
29 Then He spoke to them a parable: "Look at the fig tree, and all the trees. 30 "When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near.
31 "So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near.
32 "Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place.

If the fig tree is Israel, and "budding" means some sort of rebirth of that nation, then "and all the trees" must mean that ALL the nations were reborn also at the time you believe Israel was. It just doesn't work.



Good catch! Only Luke speaks of "all the trees".
Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

Mar 13:28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:

Luk 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; 30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
Luke inserts the phrase "all the trees". This is fascinating because it impacts the "Synoptic Problem" (http://www.biblewheel.com/canon/SynopticSolution.asp). The supernatural structure of the Bible hides a solution to it: the addition belongs to verse 29 of Luke 21, and 29 is on Spoke 7 of the Bible Wheel. Seven is associated with perfection and completion, and the word "all" conveys this meaning. It is no wonder, therefore, that two books on Spoke 7 of the Bible Wheel display a remarkable concentration of the word "all": Joel and Colossians (http://www.biblewheel.com/Wheel/Spokes/Zayin_Colossians.asp), with the latter having the greatest density of this word in all the Bible. (Cf. p. 211-212 of the Bible Wheel Book.)

In Joel, Book 29, God prophesies the great destruction of Jerusalem and He uses the word "all" to describe the extension of this destruction. For example:
Joe 1:12 The vine is dried up, and the fig tree languisheth; the pomegranate tree, the palm tree also, and the apple tree, even all the trees of the field, are withered: because joy is withered away from the sons of men.
Joe 1:19 O LORD, to thee will I cry: for the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness, and the flame hath burned all the trees of the field.
This is a direct link between Book 29 and Verse 29 of Luke's Olivet Discourse (Chapter 21), based on the phrase "all the trees". So Luke's addition of this phrase is a great little wonder.

The phrase "all the trees" also appears in Book 7 (Judges 9:14) and the destruction of all the trees is also suggested in Revelation 7 (verses 1 and 3).

[CWH]

Yes, I agree that this fig tree and all the trees represent the nation Israel and all the other countries. Now, Israel gain its independence in 1948 and there are many countries that gained their independence during those times after WW2. This is the period in which people began to realize the fallability of the colonial powers and they fought to gain their independence....India, Pakistan, Indonesia etc. Please see the long list of nations that gain indepedence after WW2:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_date_of_independence

Man Blessings.

[TheForgiven]

The Rod that protruded from Jesus mouth is the Word of God; remember the white horse horseman of Revelation 19 : 11. The rod is to discipline the world. The elect will re-populate during the millenium and after the millenium is over, Satan must be let loose to test those living in the millenium so as to refine the generations of the elects. Such testing will show how sincere and faithful is the generation of the elect after the millenium to God. This happened also with Noah's descendants whom God saw as righteous and they re-populated the world after the Great Flood have destroyed the world.

I find no possible way to support this thesis brother Cheow. Why would God send Christ to rule during a literal 1000 years so he could "repopulate the elect"? You are correct about the refinement process.

A metal worker subjects metal into extreme heat in order to burn out the impurities. When the metal turns red hot, the metal has been purified, and can be molded into what ever the metal-worker desires. This is a simple picture of what happens to a Christian being forced to endure suffering for a time. And this isn't something mankind awaits; this is the reality of the Church.

The early church suffered intensely at the hands of the Beast, and the Harlot. They were being refined by the fiary trials they endured. The fiary trials were being used to soften their hearts, and God fashioned them according to His desire.

I do not know how it is you still insist as though this is a spiritual truth awaiting mankind, as though the refinement process is still future. Peter would not agree with you:


1 Peter 1:

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

Peter shows that their faith was being test through the fires; they were being refined. Why? So that their faith may be proven to be geniune. The reward? Saving of their souls when Jesus reveals His salvation which was THEN ready to be delivered; "THEN" as in during their generation/time.

But don't merely take Peter's word for it. Listen to what Jesus Himself passes on to the Church of Laodecia:


5.Revelation 3:18
I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see.
That was a recommendation made by Christ to the lukewarm Church of Laodecia. This wasn't something he told them to await, but to buy now so as to assist them in repenting. IN short, Christ was counseling them to suffer through some trials. Their suffering would prove their love for Him, and also assist them in listening to the Spirit.

Finally, I find no scriptures supporting the theory of the "elect" repopulating the earth during the Millennium. Perhaps you could assist us in finding scripture that "literally" states this will happen. After all, is it not Futurist who insist that God's word should be taken literally? Then show us where, in the Bible, does it literally state the elect will repopulate the earth during the Millennium.

Joe

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

Matthew24:32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[d]is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation[e] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

As the preterists say, symbolic verses must use symbolic interpretations. The fig tree is symbolic for the nation of Israel, so are the twigs and leaves which seems to suggest something young and developing. "Summer is near" suggests a period when something is about to mature into fruitation. Heaven and earth will pass away?....Heaven and earth will never pass away.

Mind you, I am a preterist-futurist not a full futurist.

Many Blessings.
Hi folks.

I used to hold the view that Jesus was saying simply that just as summer is near when the trees push their leaves, so also when you see these signs, you'll know that the destruction of Jeruslaem and end of the aeon of the jews was near.

What Cheo Wee Hock says has a point to it about the figurative language. Trees are (edit: can be) figurative language for nations in the old testament. (Google figuraltive language: bible) And the fig has an association figuratively to "Israel". Thus combining the belief that "this generation" was most certainly the generation (genea) that Jesus spoke to; what could this be referring to?

We assume that 'pushing its leaves' means being 'reborn". But where did that come from? Was it interpretation applied after the fact? If a nation is pushing its' leaves, it is already a tree with branches, buds, roots, bark, etc. Israel was not a nation pushing it's leaves in 1948 nor will it be a old covenant nation again. To insist so, glorifies the law, the ministry of death. etc. The 'nation born in a day" of Isaiah 65 is the international nation of Christ born in 67 AD when they crossed back over the Jordan and when Judgment sat and favor was given to the saints of the son of Man in Dan 7..

Thus the inclusion of Lukes "and all the trees" could give us some insight that this was also fulfilled in the first century. Before I offer my belief, I'll offer a parrallel section of "and you will hear of wars and rumors of wars".

Thus if the futurists assumption that 'pushing' their leaves is not 'Israel becoming a nation" or other nations gaining their supposed 'independance' (which are not identical to each other, but which futurists say both happened in 1948 and onwards) then what first century historical happenings could align with the fig tree of then national Israel along with other nations also with the Roman Empire, (just as Israel was) pushing their leaves.??


2nd item of associated observation.
When we read the word "and then" in the english we often think 'afterwards" as if the Olivet were a narrative progression of the things to come.

But just as much of the old testament was written in a Poetic form known as Hebrew Parallelism, so also I believe that it shows up from time to time in important passages in the NT. I dont' know how much those who post here are familiar with Hebrew Parallelism, but if your not familiar with it, please study it. Then when reading poetic parts of the OT, do so with a bounce.. or rythm.

The word "then" does not mean 'afterwards" but rather "at this time".
With Jesus repeated use of the word "at this time" through the olivet, it seems that he is talking mostly about the same time of just before the end. These were the signs leading up to the "time" of their departure.

Note also the phrase... "but the end is not now" referring to some of the happenings leading up to "that time".

Thus I think there are some parallel sections to Matt 24 which transition around the word "then" and develop additional and expanded information about the time of the departure form Judea and the ensuing desolation.

[TheForgiven]

Greetings brother Deut32.

I myself believe that each sign was in succession of each other. Let's review:

Beginnings of sorrows (birth pains)
1. Certain wars taking place, and even rumors spreading about war
2. Nations would turn against each other and fight wars
3. Pestilences, earth quakes, famines, diseases
4. Gospels preached by the Apostles during these times of trouble
5. Apostles are murdered/killed by not only their fellow Jews of the flesh, but by the rulers of the Nations.
6. Israel of the flesh engages in conflict resulting in the greatest Tribulation ever seen.
7. False Messiahs infest Israel of the flesh, along with false miracles.
8. Tribulation is limited to prevent death to every single Jews based on flesh
9. Tribulation ends; the sun is darkened, the moon fails to give its light, and the sign of the Son of Man appears in the sky, and the remaining Jews representing the Tribes mourn. Christ’s gathers His elect from the "four winds", and the Kingdom is handed over to the Saints.
10. The Church is completed, and rules the world forever and ever.

The Tribulation Period is Christ's judgment being poured out upon geographical Israel, as Daneil is shown:


Daniel 9:

9 I beheld until the thrones were set, and the Ancient of days sat; and his raiment was white as snow, and the hair of his head, as pure wool: his throne was a flame of fire, and his wheels burning fire. 10 A stream of fire rushed forth before him: thousand thousands ministered to him, and ten thousands of myriads, attended upon him: the judgment sat, and the books were opened. 11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which that horn spoke, until the wild beast was slain and destroyed, and his body given to be burnt with fire.

Thus, 70AD represents the height, or completion of God's judgment. The Beast being partially killed in my opinion represents the fall of the Roman Empire after Nero Caesar's death.

IN conclusion, I believe each account spoken of by Jesus represented successive events to take place within a specified time period, all centered around geographical Israel as it existed in the first century. Jesus was not speaking of events taking place over thousands of years, but in a "Shortened" period of time to spare the elect.

What say you all?

Joe

Please forgive any misspelled words. I stopped using Mozilla Firefox (with its neat spell checker) because it was acting too buggy. Any advice on which web browser you all like? Is Internet Explorer safe to use, or should I go back to using Mozilla?

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

Greetings brother Deut32.

I myself believe that each sign was in succession of each other. Let's review:

Beginnings of sorrows (birth pains)
1. Certain wars taking place, and even rumors spreading about war
2. Nations would turn against each other and fight wars
3. Pestilences, earth quakes, famines, diseases
4. Gospels preached by the Apostles during these times of trouble
5. Apostles are murdered/killed by not only their fellow Jews of the flesh, but by the rulers of the Nations.
6. Israel of the flesh engages in conflict resulting in the greatest Tribulation ever seen.
7. False Messiahs infest Israel of the flesh, along with false miracles.
8. Tribulation is limited to prevent death to every single Jews based on flesh
9. Tribulation ends; the sun is darkened, the moon fails to give its light, and the sign of the Son of Man appears in the sky, and the remaining Jews representing the Tribes mourn. Christ’s gathers His elect from the "four winds", and the Kingdom is handed over to the Saints.
10. The Church is completed, and rules the world forever and ever.


Number 2 happened towards the end.
This throws a loop into the consecutive order.
The pestilence, famine, earthquakes, etc began occurring in the 30 AD decade, through the following decades. Search some of the info at preterist archive or I can provide a link also. During one such pestilence, 30,000 died in on area.

#7 also began in the decades following Christ. This was the time associated to be the time of the Messiah, thus many thought perhaps they were him. I think it is Tacticus who reported that Festus? or Felix was putting false Christs to death almost daily..? This wasn't the war on the saints yet...so it wouldn't have been referring to the neronic executions.

Are you aware of Hebrew Parallelism?

The Fig and 'all the trees" (nations) pushing their leaves coincides with the wars and rumors of wars as not only Judea/national Isreal, but several other nations (trees) within the empire rose against rome and some against each other during the 60's which culminated in a year of four emporors of 69 AD. Up until this time of the civil wars Rome had been in the Pax Romana since 27 BC. Many feel that this was the head wound of the beast which healed though Vespacian/Titus.

[TheForgiven]

Number 2 happened towards the end.
This throws a loop into the consecutive order.
The pestilence, famine, earthquakes, etc began occurring in the 30 AD decade, through the following decades. Search some of the info at preterist archive or I can provide a link also. During one such pestilence, 30,000 died in on area.

Yes most of the pestilences, and famines happened near the end, particularly on the Jews who refused to leave Jerusalem. Their goal was to defend the city and temple. However, one of the Churches was destroyed in a severe earth quake in the early 60's AD. The fact that the rebuilt their entire city in such a short time proved that they felt they were in "need of nothing". I believe this was Laodecia.


#7 also began in the decades following Christ. This was the time associated to be the time of the Messiah, thus many thought perhaps they were him. I think it is Tacticus who reported that Festus? or Felix was putting false Christs to death almost daily..? This wasn't the war on the saints yet...so it wouldn't have been referring to the neronic executions.

Correct. There were many false prophets, and false Messiahs during the entire 40 years after Christ's death. One such false Messiah was Simon the Magician, according to some written documents. However, the document which tells the story of Peter's battle with Simon the Magician may have been a Gnostic corruption.


Are you aware of Hebrew Parallelism?

The Fig and 'all the trees" (nations) pushing their leaves coincides with the wars and rumors of wars as not only Judea/national Isreal, but several other nations (trees) within the empire rose against rome and some against each other during the 60's which culminated in a year of four emporors of 69 AD. Up until this time of the civil wars Rome had been in the Pax Romana since 27 BC. Many feel that this was the head wound of the beast which healed though Vespacian/Titus.

The figures applied to the trees may be correct. But in my own opinion, I think Christ wasn't trying to imply the growth of nations, or even cities. Rather He was simply using a figure of "Spring" to prove that the events taking place meant that something was about to be born. This, I believe, is the Kingdom of Christ.

More to come.

Joe

[CWH]

Hi Joe,

I have answered many of the issues in my much earlier posts; looks like we are repeating again. See my reply in Red:


Greetings brother Deut32.

I myself believe that each sign was in succession of each other. Let's review:

Beginnings of sorrows (birth pains)
1. Certain wars taking place, and even rumors spreading about war
2. Nations would turn against each other and fight wars
3. Pestilences, earth quakes, famines, diseases
The items in 1, 2, 3 is connected to the fourth seal of Revelation 6, "7When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, "Come!" 8I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth."

4. Gospels preached by the Apostles during these times of trouble.
Unfortunately, all the apostles died before AD 70 except perhaps John who was believed to have died in AD 90 and even then he was still preaching in Ephesus. I doubt the apostles have fully completed the preaching the Gospels throughout the Roman world by AD 70 and obviously not throughout the entire world.


5. Apostles are murdered/killed by not only their fellow Jews of the flesh, but by the rulers of the Nations. Agreed.

6. Israel of the flesh engages in conflict resulting in the greatest Tribulation ever seen.
However, the tribulation continues till the Jewish revolt ended in AD 135, please see about the Roman-Jewish Revolt. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Jewish_Revolt
The greatest Tribulation that was mentioned refers to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 and this was not comparable to the tribulation of WW2 of the 20th century when 50-70 million people died.

7. False Messiahs infest Israel of the flesh, along with false miracles.
Agreed but even to this day, many False Messiahs still exist; a scourge not just pertaining to 1st century but even now and the future.

8. Tribulation is limited to prevent death to every single Jews based on flesh.
Agreed, if God did not cut short those days, no one will survive, Jews or Gentiles. Those days may refer to the destruction of Jerusalem and may also refer to a future event.

9. Tribulation ends; the sun is darkened, the moon fails to give its light, and the sign of the Son of Man appears in the sky, and the remaining Jews representing the Tribes mourn. Christ’s gathers His elect from the "four winds", and the Kingdom is handed over to the Saints.
This have not happened in AD 70 but will occur in a future event. Good, you have the mark of a future futurist :D. Let's celebrate.

10. The Church is completed, and rules the world forever and ever.
Agreed, the Kingdom of God rules the world forever.

Thus, 70AD represents the height, or completion of God's judgment. The Beast being partially killed in my opinion represents the fall of the Roman Empire after Nero Caesar's death.
This is just speculation that the Beast was Nero Caesar but I agreed that the Beast was the Roman Empire. AD 70, however represent the start of the decline of the Roman Empire. The Empire that was once alive but now "is "dead and yet will reappear again.

In conclusion, I believe each account spoken of by Jesus represented successive events to take place within a specified time period, all centered around geographical Israel as it existed in the first century. Jesus was not speaking of events taking place over thousands of years, but in a "Shortened" period of time to spare the elect.
If all the elect were believed by the preterist as already saved into heaven by AD 70, what good is there a "Shortened" period of time to spare? Where in the Bible is the date AD 70 or the word "1st century" mentioned?

Joe

Please forgive any misspelled words. I stopped using Mozilla Firefox (with its neat spell checker) because it was acting too buggy. Any advice on which web browser you all like? Is Internet Explorer safe to use, or should I go back to using Mozilla?
Use Mac as I do and you need not worry about viruses:)

Many Blessings.

[TheForgiven]

Use Mac as I do and you need not worry about viruses

Many Blessings.

And so I've heard. I thought of buying a MAC, but haven't decided for sure yet. Will microsoft software work on a MAC system?

Joe

[TheForgiven]

The items in 1, 2, 3 is connected to the fourth seal of Revelation 6, "7When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, "Come!" 8I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth."

Do you apply the seals to the entire world? Or to geographical Israel? If you apply the seals to the entire world, then that would be a complete contradiction of the Tribes (12 total) who were being sealed, and not sealed. Those who were NOT sealed would be the ones to suffer the intense effects of the seals. As you can see, scripture demands that the seals be applied ONLY to geographical Israel, and NOT the entire world. For we are not based on the 12 Tribes, while at the same time, we through them obtained salvation by Christ.


4. Gospels preached by the Apostles during these times of trouble.
Unfortunately, all the apostles died before AD 70 except perhaps John who was believed to have died in AD 90 and even then he was still preaching in Ephesus. I doubt the apostles have fully completed the preaching the Gospels throughout the Roman world by AD 70 and obviously not throughout the entire world.

Why do you doubt? The problem is because you view the habitation of the world as a complete globalization of humanity. If only one section of the world is inhabited, and the message is sent to them, then the Apostles completed their mission. The Apostles did exactly what they were commanded to do; preach unto Israel first, and then to the Gentiles. They did exactly that. Even some of the early church fathers admit to this. I find it curious that modern day Christians believe they were unable to complete their mission. Besides, not all of the Apostles were sent to the Gentile Kingdoms. Paul and Barnabus were the primary ones sent. Yet look how much a single man did, not counting the others who traveled to distant nations.


5. Apostles are murdered/killed by not only their fellow Jews of the flesh, but by the rulers of the Nations. Agreed.

Actually the Apostles were killed by both Jews and Gentiles who rejected the Gospels. Whether Jewish rulers, or foreign rulers, they were killed as predicted.


6. Israel of the flesh engages in conflict resulting in the greatest Tribulation ever seen. However, the tribulation continues till the Jewish revolt ended in AD 135, please see about the Roman-Jewish Revolt. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Jewish_Revolt
The greatest Tribulation that was mentioned refers to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 and this was not comparable to the tribulation of WW2 of the 20th century when 50-70 million people died.

The revolt in 135 AD was led by a false Messiah named Shimeon Bar Kaphba (spelling). However, that was not necessarily part of the Tribulation. This was a revived bunch that happened to survive the Tribulation in the 60's AD. I'd say their destruction (135 AD) was God's fulfillment and promise to destroy even those who survived the Tribulation in 70AD. As for WW1 and WW2, that has absolutely no significance to prophesy. That was simply a foreign race that were called Jews, even though they were not; neither spiritually, nationally, nor biologically. A Jew is defined by His relationship with God, and not his loins. Those were not Jews, and neither are the ones who reside in modern day national Israel. They are only recognized as Jews by mankind, but not by God, Christ, nor the Church; at least those who embrace the truth that God's chosen are within, and not without.


7. False Messiahs infest Israel of the flesh, along with false miracles.
Agreed but even to this day, many False Messiahs still exist; a scourge not just pertaining to 1st century but even now and the future.

What does that have to do with anything? Matthew 24 wasn't about False Messiah's appearing to every generation. That had to do with the coming destruction of the temple. The Apostles asked what signs would there be that they would know when the temple's destruction would occur. False Messiah's was one such sign. The so-called "False Messiah's" of today have no significance, nor impact of Matthew 24, for the temple has been destroyed (Just as Jesus stated) on time, at the right time, and for all time.


8. Tribulation is limited to prevent death to every single Jews based on flesh.
Agreed, if God did not cut short those days, no one will survive, Jews or Gentiles. Those days may refer to the destruction of Jerusalem and may also refer to a future event.

Perhaps, but the text doesn't say that. You cannot violate interpretation of scripture by subjecting our own theories which are not part of the context of any given verse. Wouldn't you agree? And what was the context of the Tribulation? The wrath upon "this" people. "This" meaning the Jews of the flesh. Why was wrath poured out upon them? Because they did not accept Jesus as the Messiah and because they had Jesus crucified. They treated Jesus as their true forefathers did; murdering the prophets sent to them. Thus, since Jerusalem was destroyed because of their sin, then how can you claim that Jerusalem would be destroyed again? There's no scripture to support such a claim.


9. Tribulation ends; the sun is darkened, the moon fails to give its light, and the sign of the Son of Man appears in the sky, and the remaining Jews representing the Tribes mourn. Christ’s gathers His elect from the "four winds", and the Kingdom is handed over to the Saints.
This has not happened in AD 70 but will occur in a future event. Good, you have the mark of a future futurist . Let's celebrate.

On the contrary, it did not happen according to the pattern you embrace brother Cheow. You are looking for those things to happen literally. The Saints are already owners of the Kingdom; both on earth, and in heaven. How can you suggest that the Saints do not yet own the Kingdom? Listen to the scripture:

Jesus said, "Therefore, the Kingdom will be taken away from you and given to another who will produce its fruit...." Who received the Kingdom? Jesus. How do we partake of this ownership? We are part of Christ's body. Thus what Jesus owns, we own. However, He is the head of the body, and thus makes all the decisions.


Thus, 70AD represents the height, or completion of God's judgment. The Beast being partially killed in my opinion represents the fall of the Roman Empire after Nero Caesar's death.
This is just speculation that the Beast was Nero Caesar but I agreed that the Beast was the Roman Empire. AD 70, however represent the start of the decline of the Roman Empire. The Empire that was once alive but now "is "dead and yet will re-appear again.

Will reappear again? After thousands of years? Tell me, who will embrace this risen Empire? You might want to reconsider this. This is very contradictory to the scriptures. Your timing is divided and very off. Where does it say that the Roman Empire falls, and then appears again? John is shown that the Angel plunged the throne of the beast into darkness. Rome enters into a civil war that lasted one year. This happened when Nero Caesar was killed. After his death, Rome fell apart and dark times entered the Empire. But soon, a new king would emerge. This new Emperor would restore the fortunes of Rome, bring glory and honor back to him (Rome), and complete the mission God had sent them to do; destroy the Harlot by burning her with fire. This was Vespasian and his two sons Titus and Domitian. Thus, when Rome was victorious over the Jewish war which had a very huge death toll, everyone gloried at Rome and became conceited, as though Rome were indestructible. Quite the contrary. Rome was overtaken by a Sect called Christians. Jesus advanced His Kingdom upon an Empire that the Jews could not defeat militarily, yet Jesus did without lifting a single weapon. His armies were the armies of faith, hope, and love. The testimonies of the Saints proved to be unbeatable, as the Roman society embraced Christianity, and the Churches established by the Apostles gained ground on what was once a rejecting society. Thus, Apostate Israel was judged and destroyed, and Rome was judged and destroyed. The winner in all this? Jesus.

To expect a future Rome is outside of scripture, and contradicts the Prophesies of Daniel. Daniel is shown that the 4rth Beast (no revived 4rth, and not number 5 Beast) was killed and the Stone (Christ) would dash the 4rth Beast all together, and rule forever.

Daniel spoke nothing of a 5th Beast, and John said nothing of a revived Beast. Rome itself was the Beast. The heads were merely rulers of the Beast. Nero Caesar was one of the heads. But a 6th and 7th head would be the ones who revived the Beast; this was Vespasian, Titus, and Domitian.

Trust me; the presentation I have proposed is far less contradictory than what you're proposing. All the prophesies fit together in harmony. Unlike the Futurist method, Preterist's do not have to juggle certain prophesies into a huge bowl to misapplied context in order to build a case. It amazes me how the Futurist will yank this verse, and that verse, pulling nearly every single one out of context, and then use those to support a proven fallacy that has plagued the Church for more than 1500 years. How many wolf cries will it take to reach the minds of the Futurist's, letting them know that something is terribly wrong with their mode of belief? :confused:


In conclusion, I believe each account spoken of by Jesus represented successive events to take place within a specified time period, all centered around geographical Israel as it existed in the first century. Jesus was not speaking of events taking place over thousands of years, but in a "Shortened" period of time to spare the elect.
If all the elect were believed by the preterist as already saved into heaven by AD 70, what good is there a "Shortened" period of time to spare? Where in the Bible is the date AD 70 or the word "1st century" mentioned?

:lol: Nice try but that isn't quite the same thing. If the prophesies were written before 70AD, how or why would it be in the Bible? The remnant of Israel would be the ones chosen to advance His Kingdom, and it was they who were spared from the coming wrath. John the Baptist warned them of the wrath to come, and it came as predicted. I don't see what's so difficult about that? Jesus told the Apostles that if the Tribulation were left to be too long, no flesh (meaning nobody) would have survived. That's how horrible it was. But for the sake of the "ELECT", meaning the Patriarchs, the Tribulation upon the Jews had to be limited. The entire war lasted from about 64AD to 70AD; roughly 7 years. That's longer than what you think. I'm 40 years old, and I'm waiting to retire from Active Duty service. I have two years left, and man it's taking a very long time. And if 2 years before retirement seems long to me, how much more those who suffer a war for seven years? Think about it.

Joe

[CWH]

And so I've heard. I thought of buying a MAC, but haven't decided for sure yet. Will microsoft software work on a MAC system?

Joe

Hi Joe,

There are many ways you can use microsoft softwares on a Mac:
1) Use virtualization softwares such as Parallel or VM etc. to switch easily from Mac to Microsoft. I use Parallels.
2) Buy the latest OS from Mac (Leopard or Snow Leopard) that comes with a program BootCamp, that allows you to which from Mac to Microsoft system easily.
3) Use Mac/Microsoft compliant softwares such as Office for Mac. I use a cheaper version, Thinkfree.

But using Microsoft softwares on a Mac may subject your computer to viruses but it will only affect the microsoft/microsoft complaint systems. It will not affect your Mac OS system. On the safer side, I use a Mac computer for e-mails and internet and and a Microsoft compliant computer for normal routine work. I also use my iPhone to surf the net.

Although it is good to have a anti-virus software for Mac but believe me, it is not necessary. I installed my Mac computer with NetBarrier...(just in case, but it is more of a psychological barrier). So far no problem at all surfing the net...I love my Mac.

Many Blessings.

[CWH]

Do you apply the seals to the entire world? Or to geographical Israel? If you apply the seals to the entire world, then that would be a complete contradiction of the Tribes (12 total) who were being sealed, and not sealed. Those who were NOT sealed would be the ones to suffer the intense effects of the seals. As you can see, scripture demands that the seals be applied ONLY to geographical Israel, and NOT the entire world. For we are not based on the 12 Tribes, while at the same time, we through them obtained salvation by Christ.



Why do you doubt? The problem is because you view the habitation of the world as a complete globalization of humanity. If only one section of the world is inhabited, and the message is sent to them, then the Apostles completed their mission. The Apostles did exactly what they were commanded to do; preach unto Israel first, and then to the Gentiles. They did exactly that. Even some of the early church fathers admit to this. I find it curious that modern day Christians believe they were unable to complete their mission. Besides, not all of the Apostles were sent to the Gentile Kingdoms. Paul and Barnabus were the primary ones sent. Yet look how much a single man did, not counting the others who traveled to distant nations.



Actually the Apostles were killed by both Jews and Gentiles who rejected the Gospels. Whether Jewish rulers, or foreign rulers, they were killed as predicted.



The revolt in 135 AD was led by a false Messiah named Shimeon Bar Kaphba (spelling). However, that was not necessarily part of the Tribulation. This was a revived bunch that happened to survive the Tribulation in the 60's AD. I'd say their destruction (135 AD) was God's fulfillment and promise to destroy even those who survived the Tribulation in 70AD. As for WW1 and WW2, that has absolutely no significance to prophesy. That was simply a foreign race that were called Jews, even though they were not; neither spiritually, nationally, nor biologically. A Jew is defined by His relationship with God, and not his loins. Those were not Jews, and neither are the ones who reside in modern day national Israel. They are only recognized as Jews by mankind, but not by God, Christ, nor the Church; at least those who embrace the truth that God's chosen are within, and not without.



What does that have to do with anything? Matthew 24 wasn't about False Messiah's appearing to every generation. That had to do with the coming destruction of the temple. The Apostles asked what signs would there be that they would know when the temple's destruction would occur. False Messiah's was one such sign. The so-called "False Messiah's" of today have no significance, nor impact of Matthew 24, for the temple has been destroyed (Just as Jesus stated) on time, at the right time, and for all time.



Perhaps, but the text doesn't say that. You cannot violate interpretation of scripture by subjecting our own theories which are not part of the context of any given verse. Wouldn't you agree? And what was the context of the Tribulation? The wrath upon "this" people. "This" meaning the Jews of the flesh. Why was wrath poured out upon them? Because they did not accept Jesus as the Messiah and because they had Jesus crucified. They treated Jesus as their true forefathers did; murdering the prophets sent to them. Thus, since Jerusalem was destroyed because of their sin, then how can you claim that Jerusalem would be destroyed again? There's no scripture to support such a claim.



On the contrary, it did not happen according to the pattern you embrace brother Cheow. You are looking for those things to happen literally. The Saints are already owners of the Kingdom; both on earth, and in heaven. How can you suggest that the Saints do not yet own the Kingdom? Listen to the scripture:

Jesus said, "Therefore, the Kingdom will be taken away from you and given to another who will produce its fruit...." Who received the Kingdom? Jesus. How do we partake of this ownership? We are part of Christ's body. Thus what Jesus owns, we own. However, He is the head of the body, and thus makes all the decisions.



Will reappear again? After thousands of years? Tell me, who will embrace this risen Empire? You might want to reconsider this. This is very contradictory to the scriptures. Your timing is divided and very off. Where does it say that the Roman Empire falls, and then appears again? John is shown that the Angel plunged the throne of the beast into darkness. Rome enters into a civil war that lasted one year. This happened when Nero Caesar was killed. After his death, Rome fell apart and dark times entered the Empire. But soon, a new king would emerge. This new Emperor would restore the fortunes of Rome, bring glory and honor back to him (Rome), and complete the mission God had sent them to do; destroy the Harlot by burning her with fire. This was Vespasian and his two sons Titus and Domitian. Thus, when Rome was victorious over the Jewish war which had a very huge death toll, everyone gloried at Rome and became conceited, as though Rome were indestructible. Quite the contrary. Rome was overtaken by a Sect called Christians. Jesus advanced His Kingdom upon an Empire that the Jews could not defeat militarily, yet Jesus did without lifting a single weapon. His armies were the armies of faith, hope, and love. The testimonies of the Saints proved to be unbeatable, as the Roman society embraced Christianity, and the Churches established by the Apostles gained ground on what was once a rejecting society. Thus, Apostate Israel was judged and destroyed, and Rome was judged and destroyed. The winner in all this? Jesus.

To expect a future Rome is outside of scripture, and contradicts the Prophesies of Daniel. Daniel is shown that the 4rth Beast (no revived 4rth, and not number 5 Beast) was killed and the Stone (Christ) would dash the 4rth Beast all together, and rule forever.

Daniel spoke nothing of a 5th Beast, and John said nothing of a revived Beast. Rome itself was the Beast. The heads were merely rulers of the Beast. Nero Caesar was one of the heads. But a 6th and 7th head would be the ones who revived the Beast; this was Vespasian, Titus, and Domitian.

Trust me; the presentation I have proposed is far less contradictory than what you're proposing. All the prophesies fit together in harmony. Unlike the Futurist method, Preterist's do not have to juggle certain prophesies into a huge bowl to misapplied context in order to build a case. It amazes me how the Futurist will yank this verse, and that verse, pulling nearly every single one out of context, and then use those to support a proven fallacy that has plagued the Church for more than 1500 years. How many wolf cries will it take to reach the minds of the Futurist's, letting them know that something is terribly wrong with their mode of belief? :confused:



:lol: Nice try but that isn't quite the same thing. If the prophesies were written before 70AD, how or why would it be in the Bible? The remnant of Israel would be the ones chosen to advance His Kingdom, and it was they who were spared from the coming wrath. John the Baptist warned them of the wrath to come, and it came as predicted. I don't see what's so difficult about that? Jesus told the Apostles that if the Tribulation were left to be too long, no flesh (meaning nobody) would have survived. That's how horrible it was. But for the sake of the "ELECT", meaning the Patriarchs, the Tribulation upon the Jews had to be limited. The entire war lasted from about 64AD to 70AD; roughly 7 years. That's longer than what you think. I'm 40 years old, and I'm waiting to retire from Active Duty service. I have two years left, and man it's taking a very long time. And if 2 years before retirement seems long to me, how much more those who suffer a war for seven years? Think about it.

Joe

I do not wish to go into a long debate or challenge the full preterist's views. The following are my replies:

One thing I realized is that preterists apply the prophesies for geographical Israel whereas futurists apply the prophesies as pertaining to the whole world. The Great Flood affected the whole world, God created Heaven and Earth and everything in it for the whole world, God inspired the Holy Bible not only for the Jews but for the whole world; therefore, it doesn't make sense that the prophesies apply only to geographical Israel. Does the 12 tribes of Israel judge only over the Jews or the entire world?

Unfortunately, pure Jew is a dying breed. How many pure Jews are there left in this world? Is the Bible obsolete if there is no more pure Jew left in this world?
If an American who is a pure Jew inter-married an American non-Jew, would I still consider him an American? Yes. Do I still consider his descendants as "half-Jew"? Yes. As many European Jews inter-married in the past, I won't be surprised if you or many Americans (whose ancestry are European) have Jewish blood in their blood.

Obviously, the apostles have not completed the spread of the Gospels throughout the ancient Roman Empire by AD 70 because all of them died before that time except perhaps apostle John. In order to spread the Gospels throughout the world as commanded requires much longer time and by other means, and just by the effort of the apostles or Christians then were not enough. Many means worked to spread the Gospels by other means throughout the world - missionaries, conquests, colonizations, emigrations, education, multi-media.

If false messiahs still exists in this world to deceive people mean that Satan, the chief deceiver, is alive and well in this world and have not been casted into the lake of fire and therefore the prophesies of Matthew 24 still applies to this day.

Agreed that Jerusalem was destroyed in AD 70 but since then it has been rebulit again to this day. It is no more desolated or a haven for jackals. As the wrath or curse of God goes through several generations, I see no reason why Jerusalem will not be destroyed again or the jews will not be punished again as in the Holocaust. Even if the third Temple were to be rebuilt on the Mount of Olives today, the preterists will come out with some excuses to support their claims that this is not the 3rd Temple.

The signs of the Revived Roman Empire are coming out. It has been the dream of many European leaders of past...Constantine, Charlemange, Napoleon, Hitler. And the dream is still ongoing to this day of a United Europe.
Is the United States whose people are comprised of mainly of descendants of European ancestries, an United Europe? America have many cultures and climate siimlar to Europe. I am not saying that the US is a Beast but just to stimulate a thought on the connection. To me the United States is an United Europe.

Since there is no historical record of "the sun being darkened and the moon will not give its light and the stars(meteors) falling, sign of Son of man appearing in the sky" during the 1st century and the past, I would take it as a future event.

Do not put me in the category of a full futurist. I do also see the prophesies of the futurists fit in harmony although I agree that some full futurists' prophesies are too way-off. I do see some sense in the preterist's view of the end of age as the end of the jewish age; that's why I consider myself a preterist-futurist.

Your part on "But a 6th and 7th head would be the ones who revived the Beast; this was Vespasian, Titus, and Domitian" is way far-off. Vespasian died in AD 79, succeeded by Titus who died in AD 81 and succeeded by Domitian who died in AD 90s. This is way past AD 70 when the story of the Bible ended according to preterist's belief. What 6th and 7th heads are you talking about? And who were the 8th, 9th, 10th heads of the Beast? I would take it that you believe Revelation wrote about events way past AD 70 as I do.

Many Blessings.

[gregoryfl]

Cheow wrote: Since there is no historical record of "the sun being darkened and the moon will not give its light and the stars(meteors) falling, sign of Son of man appearing in the sky" during the 1st century and the past, I would take it as a future event.

If you wish to be consistent then, according to this prophecy about Babylon's fall to the Medes and Persians:

Isa 13:1,9-11,13 The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw: Behold, the day of Yahweh comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger; to make the land a desolation, and to destroy its sinners out of it. For the stars of the sky and its constellations will not give their light. The sun will be darkened in its going forth, and the moon will not cause its light to shine. I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity. I will cause the arrogance of the proud to cease, and will humble the haughtiness of the terrible. Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place in the wrath of Yahweh of Armies, and in the day of his fierce anger.

There also are no historical records of the stars and moon not giving light, nor of the sun being darkened, nor of the heavens trembling and the earth being shaken out of its place when speaking of Babylon's fall, no signs in the heavens that anyone recorded. Therefore, would you say that this destruction is yet future?

[TheForgiven]

Unfortunately, pure Jew is a dying breed. How many pure Jews are there left in this world? Is the Bible obsolete if there is no more pure Jew left in this world?
If an American who is a pure Jew inter-married an American non-Jew, would I still consider him an American? Yes. Do I still consider his descendants as "half-Jew"? Yes. As many European Jews inter-married in the past, I won't be surprised if you or many Americans (whose ancestry are European) have Jewish blood in their blood.

That is according to our standard, but not the Jews. In the Old Testament, a Hebrew was defined based on their Tribe. If they could not prove what Tribe the originated, then they were to be cast out as Gentiles because their blood line had been severed. Their blood line was important so as to retain the genealogy leading to Christ Jesus. Since Christ has been established as King of the world, the genealogy is no longer required.


Obviously, the apostles have not completed the spread of the Gospels throughout the ancient Roman Empire by AD 70 because all of them died before that time except perhaps apostle John. In order to spread the Gospels throughout the world as commanded requires much longer time and by other means, and just by the effort of the apostles or Christians then were not enough. Many means worked to spread the Gospels by other means throughout the world - missionaries, conquests, colonizations, emigrations, education, multi-media.

The Apostles fulfilled their mission by spreading the Gospels to the "then" known world. They set up Parishes in every Gentile nation. From there, Churches expanded as intended, as it does to this day. But Church expansion is not quite the same as spreading the Gospels. Churches continue to expand in our nation, but that's because the gospels was brought here from it's beginning. What the Apostles did was spread the Gospels. What we do in our day is expand on what has already been established; there is a difference.


If false messiahs still exists in this world to deceive people mean that Satan, the chief deceiver, is alive and well in this world and have not been casted into the lake of fire and therefore the prophesies of Matthew 24 still applies to this day.

But there are no false Messiah's in our day. Who was the last one, if you don't mind me asking; not that it means anything. Relevance my friend....relevance. The False Messiah's were a sign to the Apostles that the destruction of Jerusalem, and the presence of the Messiah was close. And there you go blaming Satan again. I think too many Christians refuse to take personal responsibility for their own actions, and stop pointing the finger as Satan, as though he makes everyone sin. Satan gave birth to sin; that is why he's called the father of sin. But forcing people into sinning is a totally different subject. So if some nut case claims he's the Messiah, such as Charles Manson, does that mean Satan made him do it? How about letting Charles take responsibility for his own actions; Satan has nothing to do with it, except that he gave birth to sin. But Jesus gave birth to righteousness. That being said, does Christ force people to be righteous? No. It's all about personal responsibility.


Agreed that Jerusalem was destroyed in AD 70 but since then it has been rebulit again to this day. It is no more desolated or a haven for jackals. As the wrath or curse of God goes through several generations, I see no reason why Jerusalem will not be destroyed again or the jews will not be punished again as in the Holocaust. Even if the third Temple were to be rebuilt on the Mount of Olives today, the preterists will come out with some excuses to support their claims that this is not the 3rd Temple.

You still believe those were Jews who suffered during the Holocaust. Haven't we crossed this road before brother Cheow? Paul Himself shows that those who reject Christ are not Israel; neither are they a Jew. The race that suffered the Holocaust is quite tragic. There's no doubt about it. But why look at that as God's punishment towards the Jews? What about all the soldiers who died during WW1 and WW2? Was God punishing them as well? And I'm not merely talking about American soldiers; what about the French soldiers? And all the soldiers who fought against Nazi Germany? Were they being punished too? Or was that a mere coincidence?

What's my point? Those were not "JEWS" who suffered the Holocaust. Those were Europeans. They may have bore the name "Jew" based on mans standards, but by God's standards, they were not Jews. If some of them (or most) accepted Jesus as their Savior, then certainly they were Jews, but that's beside the point.

As for the temple, you won't have to worry about Preterist making excuses. Should such a temple be rebuilt, rest assured that the Futurist's book shelves will be out-of-stock from all the hype that will be released. Judging by your posts, I think you're praying for the third temple to be rebuilt. I think Futurist's are so insistent on a third temple that they're willing to travel to Jerusalem to help them rebuild it. :lol: Why? Just so you can say you are right....even though you'd still be dead wrong.


The signs of the Revived Roman Empire are coming out. It has been the dream of many European leaders of past...Constantine, Charlemange, Napoleon, Hitler. And the dream is still ongoing to this day of a United Europe.
Is the United States whose people are comprised of mainly of descendants of European ancestries, an United Europe? America have many cultures and climate siimlar to Europe. I am not saying that the US is a Beast but just to stimulate a thought on the connection. To me the United States is an United Europe.

There is no scripture which speaks of a revived Roman world. Daniel doesn't speak of it, and neither does John. Where are you getting this "Revived Roman Empire" bit? That's a Jack Vanempie fallacy. Daniel only mentions 4 kingdoms ruled by Gentiles. He mentions a 5th kingdom that destroys them all. There is no Revived Roman Kingdom.


Do not put me in the category of a full futurist. I do also see the prophesies of the futurists fit in harmony although I agree that some full futurists' prophesies are too way-off. I do see some sense in the preterist's view of the end of age as the end of the jewish age; that's why I consider myself a preterist-futurist.

Then I'll give you half of a congratulations. :thumb:


Your part on "But a 6th and 7th head would be the ones who revived the Beast; this was Vespasian, Titus, and Domitian" is way far-off. Vespasian died in AD 79, succeeded by Titus who died in AD 81 and succeeded by Domitian who died in AD 90s. This is way past AD 70 when the story of the Bible ended according to preterist's belief. What 6th and 7th heads are you talking about? And who were the 8th, 9th, 10th heads of the Beast? I would take it that you believe Revelation wrote about events way past AD 70 as I do.

Revelation is not a sequential book dealing with 30AD to 70AD. Most of it does, but there are passages spoken of in Revelation that briefly mention kings beyond 70AD. However, they were not important enough to write about. The focus of Revelation was on the destruction of Jerusalem, the persecution of the saints by both Beast and Harlot, and how God over-comes both of them via His Saints. Five heads of the Beast had fallen, yet John was not compelled to write about them. Why? Because they were not applicable to the Main Idea of Revelation. The same for the last two heads, plus one additional head. Nero Caesar was the primary head that ruled Rome. After his death, two more heads would rule Rome, but only after the Throne of the Beast (Rome) had completed its dark times. "and the angel plunged the throne of the Beast into darkness...." This indicated that Rome was plunged into a civil war because they had no king....Nero Caesar was dead. This civil war lasted one year. Finally, after three failed attempts by Galba, Otho, and Vitelius, Vespasian claims the Throne and Rome is made alive again. This is not a revived Roman Empire, but a restored Roman Empire. The 7th head reigned but a short while. Some here say that this was Galba, but I say it was Titus. He only reigned 3 1/2 years. The 8th was a literal 8th king, but counted among the first seven because of his actions towards the Saints.

Now why doesn't John speak more of the 7th and 8th? Because they were not part of the main picture. The focus was on Apostate Israel, and the Roman world. After the Harlot was destroyed, the kingdom of God turned its focus on overcoming the nations. But how could Christ overcome a nation without an army? Obviously, the army (saints) had to go through training before they would be prepared for battle. That is what took place during the days of the Apostles. In a way, the Apostles established Parishes all over the world as a Basic Training camp. When they were ready, they were then to be tested through the fires...." I'm reminded of this passage:

"since you have kept my word faithfully, I will spare you from the hour of trial that is about to come upon the whole inhabited earth....JESUS"

The time of testing was being poured out upon the Roman world.

Hope this helps.

Joe

[Rose]

Cheow wrote: Since there is no historical record of "the sun being darkened and the moon will not give its light and the stars(meteors) falling, sign of Son of man appearing in the sky" during the 1st century and the past, I would take it as a future event.

If you wish to be consistent then, according to this prophecy about Babylon's fall to the Medes and Persians:

Isa 13:1,9-11,13 The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw: Behold, the day of Yahweh comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger; to make the land a desolation, and to destroy its sinners out of it. For the stars of the sky and its constellations will not give their light. The sun will be darkened in its going forth, and the moon will not cause its light to shine. I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity. I will cause the arrogance of the proud to cease, and will humble the haughtiness of the terrible. Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place in the wrath of Yahweh of Armies, and in the day of his fierce anger.

There also are no historical records of the stars and moon not giving light, nor of the sun being darkened, nor of the heavens trembling and the earth being shaken out of its place when speaking of Babylon's fall, no signs in the heavens that anyone recorded. Therefore, would you say that this destruction is yet future?

Another place to look is in Ezekiel concerning the fall of Egypt.

Ezek. 32:7 And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord GOD.
Rose

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

Cheow wrote: Since there is no historical record of "the sun being darkened and the moon will not give its light and the stars(meteors) falling, sign of Son of man appearing in the sky" during the 1st century and the past, I would take it as a future event.

If you wish to be consistent then, according to this prophecy about Babylon's fall to the Medes and Persians:

Isa 13:1,9-11,13 The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw: Behold, the day of Yahweh comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger; to make the land a desolation, and to destroy its sinners out of it. For the stars of the sky and its constellations will not give their light. The sun will be darkened in its going forth, and the moon will not cause its light to shine. I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity. I will cause the arrogance of the proud to cease, and will humble the haughtiness of the terrible. Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place in the wrath of Yahweh of Armies, and in the day of his fierce anger.

There also are no historical records of the stars and moon not giving light, nor of the sun being darkened, nor of the heavens trembling and the earth being shaken out of its place when speaking of Babylon's fall, no signs in the heavens that anyone recorded. Therefore, would you say that this destruction is yet future?

AAAAMENNN; This is the difference between Literary and 'literal'. The futurist/dispensationalist preach a 'literal' interpretation and sometimes even quote Luther or Calvin. But what the reformers meant by "literal" was actually "literary". They allowed the bible to be interpreted as literature with poetry, poetic language, figurative language etc..

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

[QUOTE=Cheow Wee Hock;15031]I do not wish to go into a long debate or challenge the full preterist's views. The following are my replies:

HI Chee
I understand and apreciate your not wishing to challenge or debate and thus your giving an expression of your views, but since you use the fulfilled perspective to counter against, it is allowed for the 'consistent hermeneutic' preterist to respond.

One thing I realized is that preterists apply the prophesies for geographical Israel whereas futurists apply the prophesies as pertaining to the whole world. The Great Flood affected the whole world, God created Heaven and Earth and everything in it for the whole world, God inspired the Holy Bible not only for the Jews but for the whole world; therefore, it doesn't make sense that the prophesies apply only to geographical Israel. Does the 12 tribes of Israel judge only over the Jews or the entire world?
The Mosaic covenant was from Moses(actually Joshua) through till the desolation of the temple signifying the 'latter end' of the people, city and that covenant. Prophets who prophesied to Israel within that time period would have had prophesies primarily related to that time period or the everlasting laws of heaven in which that time period confirmed and established.

Unfortunately, pure Jew is a dying breed. How many pure Jews are there left in this world? Is the Bible obsolete if there is no more pure Jew left in this world?
You, similar to the 'scoffer' in the last days of Judea appear to forget that the world did not begin with the Jewish fathers of Joshua, Judah, etc.... nor did the 'world' begin with Israel and his sons; nor Abraham and his covenant. Thus by focusing on the supposed need for a 'pure jew' to be in the world your implicating yourself as not understanding that the geneological descendency of Abraham was simply to confirm the Messiah, and the 'jew' of Judah on downward was of the failing old conditional covenant which ended. Thus your 'world' only goes back to the old covenant. This is the world that Peter said would be destroyed as a flood and the elementary principles set on fire and destroyed. Remember Peter had said earlier that the outpouring of the Spirit indicated that they were in the 'last days' and he says another place that the 'end of all things' had come upon 'them'. This was the emphasis of Peters discussion; not weather world referred to global.

The preterist perspective shows fulfillment of prophecy from Adam who was not a 'Jew" downwards with the Mosaic covenant and nation being a parenthesis within the development and proof of the plan of salvation. That which is called 'israel' is not of the old covenant nation of Israel, but is a religion of judaism/talmudism which rejects Christ as the Messiah. They are not 'jews' of old covenant national Israel who futurists suggest will one day corporally see their Messiah. They are of the deniers and false religion makers of old Babylon. They are aligned with and either subject to or lead over the Vatican. Search for pictures and notice the phallic tower in the midst of D.C.; the Vatican, The Israeli Supreme court building; and the center square in Mecca. All associated within the old babylonian religion of self will, lording over others, counterfeit religion, lies and the worship of the snake. Some associate this with the Illuminati and freemasonry.


If an American who is a pure Jew inter-married an American non-Jew, would I still consider him an American? Yes. Do I still consider his descendants as "half-Jew"? Yes. As many European Jews inter-married in the past, I won't be surprised if you or many Americans (whose ancestry are European) have Jewish blood in their blood.
And how does this relate to Adams race or the new Adam?

Obviously, the apostles have not completed the spread of the Gospels throughout the ancient Roman Empire by AD 70 because all of them died before that time except perhaps apostle John.
The words oikomene and kosmos were both said by the apostles to have had the gospel spread to them in the writings of the apostles themselves. Thus your statements counter scripture. :confused:

In order to spread the Gospels throughout the world as commanded requires much longer time and by other means, and just by the effort of the apostles or Christians then were not enough. Many means worked to spread the Gospels by other means throughout the world - missionaries, conquests, colonizations, emigrations, education, multi-media. Of the end that Matt 24 referred to, the gospel going to all nations and not just the nation of Jews was fulfilled before the desolation. This does not imply that there is no longer a need to testify to the Spirit or preach the truthfulness of the Living Word, but here is a difference between the Evangel of the Spirit and the prosylitization/indoctrination in order to hasten the end of world.


If false messiahs still exists in this world to deceive people mean that Satan, the chief deceiver, is alive and well in this world and have not been casted into the lake of fire and therefore the prophesies of Matthew 24 still applies to this day.
I dont' know of anyone claiming to be a messiah of whom Daniel 9 is being prophesied about as they were of that day. As the talmud and the Rabbi's themselves explain, the time of that fulfillment has long since past. Some of them recognize the formation of the talmud through the rabbi's as 'the Messiah" or their Messiah of that time period. Many rabbi's are perplexed by dispensationalism.


Agreed that Jerusalem was destroyed in AD 70 but since then it has been rebulit again to this day. It is no more desolated or a haven for jackals. As the wrath or curse of God goes through several generations, I see no reason why Jerusalem will not be destroyed again or the Jews will not be punished again as in the Holocaust. Even if the third Temple were to be rebuilt on the Mount of Olives today, the preterists will come out with some excuses to support their claims that this is not the 3rd Temple.


The signs of the Revived Roman Empire are coming out. It has been the dream of many European leaders of past...Constantine, Charlemange, Napoleon, Hitler. And the dream is still ongoing to this day of a United Europe. When you appeal to the supposed 'revived Roman empire; why do you imply that this is needed for 'end times'??? Do you think that the fulfillment of end times during the old Roman empire was a shadow and type of a future empire and not the one in which the 'end of all things' were at hand.? In doing so, you confess that the prophecies were fulfilled in the first Roman empire.

I just read somewhere of a plan to rebuild said temple. Problem is the dome of the rock is not on the location of the temple but is to the northwest a few hundred yards. But by destroying the dome of the rock, they will perpetuate end times madness and christian Zionism support for as long as they can and perpetuate the war between islam, Israel/judeo Christianity. Read if you would Albert Pike and 3 world wars link below and notice the desired outcome of the war. It is to bring utter confusion upon those who believed these events would bring on the 'end times and usher in the Messiah's return'. They would be so disillusioned that they would give up on church. The kingdom of God is "within you".




Since there is no historical record of "the sun being darkened and the moon will not give its light and the stars(meteors) falling, sign of Son of man appearing in the sky" during the 1st century and the past, I would take it as a future event.

See below: Was the sun and moon being darkened when the Medes conquered Babylonia as prophecied in Isaiah 13; or was this literary and figurative language showing he transition of power.


Do not put me in the category of a full futurist. I do also see the prophesies of the futurists fit in harmony although I agree that some full futurists' prophesies are too way-off. I do see some sense in the preterist's view of the end of age as the end of the jewish age; that's why I consider myself a preterist-futurist.
You would fall in the category of a dual fulfillment person. You would consider the events of the end of the age of the jews as a figure of the end of the church age or end of time perhaps. I would reject this as being not the purpose of God of the New Covenant but that of the old national covenant. The Mosaic covenant formed from the 10th plague in egypt till Joshua crossed the Jordan was the shadow covenant, while the receiving of Christ is the everlasting covenant. These are the things God was conveying by blessing Jacob ahead of Esau, Ephraim ahead of Manassa; Isaac of the promise ahead of Ishmaal of the flesh. The elder shall serve the younger, the former shall serve the latter. The former Mosaic covenant and it's religion served as the antithesis in many ways of the everlasting covenant of Mercy poured out to individuals in all nations tongues, languages.


Your part on "But a 6th and 7th head would be the ones who revived the Beast; this was Vespasian, Titus, and Domitian" is way far-off. Vespasian died in AD 79, succeeded by Titus who died in AD 81 and succeeded by Domitian who died in AD 90s. This is way past AD 70 when the story of the Bible ended according to preterist's belief. What 6th and 7th heads are you talking about? And who were the 8th, 9th, 10th heads of the Beast? I would take it that you believe Revelation wrote about events way past AD 70 as I do.

The individuals kings or heads can be discovered if one is open to the possibility of this being fuflilled rather than looking for proof against it.
For instance what are the sequence of kings your starting with?... etc..

The deeper a futurist goes into discussing and understanding the fulfillment of the prophecies during the first century in which the end purposes of all things were in view then, the more evident to others that he or she is in willingly rejection and denial of their fulfillment and/or that their lives or religions cannot adopt the implications and applications set forth by the fuflillments.

P.S. sorry if this seems abrupt or harsh. There is no middle ground on these perspectives although God does love us unconditionally even if we currently have differing answers. But we need His Spirit inside to teach us, not the spirit and indoctrination of men.

[The Homemommy]

As a former dispensational and learning preterist, I can sympathize with Brother Cheow. As I watch the news, it is permeated with Iran vs Israel stories. Every country is affected by what Israel does or dosen't do. We have to ask ourselves...Why? Why are most churches pro-israel and teach that Israel must be supported? Is it ignorance or something more? How did Israel come to be? Was it God or a handful of powerful men? If it wasn't God, what did these men have to gain? Why is Israel shown in the media always as the underdog...the one who needs protecting? If the media is corrupt....any one with half a brain knows this to be true....who they support should send a red flag up to christians that this wrong...no? I know very well the futurists prophecies. One thing to ask while I think about Israel...when did Ezekiel 38-39 happen? My father is convinced this about a coming war with Iran. I think further discussion about why Israel is the object of so much focus might help move these threads further. Blessings, Carrie

[gregoryfl]

Well Hommymommy, my initial response would be as follows:

It is either so prominent because those who believe that the events in Israel and the rest of the middle east are fulfilling prophecy are in fact correct,

or,

It is so prominent possibly because the people want it that way, and God speaks of giving people over to what they want. Perhaps he gives them over to believe the delusion of the things in the middle east having significance because of that reason.

Not saying that any or either of these is correct, but just my initial surmisings.

Ron

[Rose]

As a former dispensational and learning preterist, I can sympathize with Brother Cheow. As I watch the news, it is permeated with Iran vs Israel stories. Every country is affected by what Israel does or dosen't do. We have to ask ourselves...Why? Why are most churches pro-israel and teach that Israel must be supported? Is it ignorance or something more? How did Israel come to be? Was it God or a handful of powerful men? If it wasn't God, what did these men have to gain? Why is Israel shown in the media always as the underdog...the one who needs protecting? If the media is corrupt....any one with half a brain knows this to be true....who they support should send a red flag up to christians that this wrong...no? I know very well the futurists prophecies. One thing to ask while I think about Israel...when did Ezekiel 38-39 happen? My father is convinced this about a coming war with Iran. I think further discussion about why Israel is the object of so much focus might help move these threads further. Blessings, Carrie

Hi Carrie,

Glad to see you're back...:yo:

Most people are "sheep", they follow the teachings of their pastors who in turn have followed the teachings of the seminary's where they were taught....never questioning or digging into Scripture on their own. Consequently wrong information gets passed down from one person to the next. I know that before I started researching on my own the teachings of many who hold to the Futurist doctrines, I was under many false assumptions about what the Bible actually says because I was ignorant of the "whole picture". So I decided to go it on my own, and instead of reading Revelation and applying it to some future events, I dug into the rest of Scripture to find out its meaning (what a surprise :D).

The re-birth of the nation of Israel really did seem to fit into the whole Futurist picture (that is why when I first became a christian 30 plus years ago that was the path I followed), but as the years rolled by and prediction after prediction failed, I finally turned to reading Revelation on my own to see if I could make sense of it. I was truly amazed that a lay-person like myself could not only understand Revelation, but actually have it make the whole Bible come alive with meaning.

There are still many passages I am still working on (like Ezek. 38-39), but one thing I do know and that is all my questions eventually get answered as the pieces of the big picture fall into place. This is such an exciting journey to be embarking upon and I'm glad you are part of it.

Many blessings

Rose

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

As a former dispensational and learning preterist, I can sympathize with Brother Cheow. As I watch the news, it is permeated with Iran vs Israel stories. Every country is affected by what Israel does or dosen't do. We have to ask ourselves...Why? Why are most churches pro-israel and teach that Israel must be supported? Is it ignorance or something more? How did Israel come to be? Was it God or a handful of powerful men? If it wasn't God, what did these men have to gain? Why is Israel shown in the media always as the underdog...the one who needs protecting? If the media is corrupt....any one with half a brain knows this to be true....who they support should send a red flag up to christians that this wrong...no? I know very well the futurists prophecies. One thing to ask while I think about Israel...when did Ezekiel 38-39 happen? My father is convinced this about a coming war with Iran. I think further discussion about why Israel is the object of so much focus might help move these threads further. Blessings, Carrie
I dont' have a comment right now on EZ 38,39 right now, but I've seen good commentaries.
http://www.preterist.org/articles/ezekiel_38_39.asp
I think some of the information at a website called sweetliberty.com could be of help to understand the goal of christian zionism, futurism, dispensationalism as ploys of judaism or whoever is behind them.
http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/hoax/index.html
You could also google 3 world wars and Albert Pike.
http://www.threeworldwars.com/albert-pike2.htm
The level of indoctrination to Christian churches concerning support for zionism and against Islam is amazing. It begins 200 yrs ago. What is equally amazing is that the religions that war against each other fly the same flag of Nimrod. As mentioned above, D.C. Rome, Mecca and Israel all have a phallic tower signifying allegiance to a religion other than the 'way of life" of the creator.

As I've posted elsewhere. If you look for a future bodily coming of Christ, do you reject the one that is Here now and within you?

[TheForgiven]

As a former dispensational and learning preterist, I can sympathize with Brother Cheow. As I watch the news, it is permeated with Iran vs Israel stories. Every country is affected by what Israel does or dosen't do. We have to ask ourselves...Why? Why are most churches pro-israel and teach that Israel must be supported? Is it ignorance or something more? How did Israel come to be? Was it God or a handful of powerful men? If it wasn't God, what did these men have to gain? Why is Israel shown in the media always as the underdog...the one who needs protecting? If the media is corrupt....any one with half a brain knows this to be true....who they support should send a red flag up to christians that this wrong...no? I know very well the futurists prophecies. One thing to ask while I think about Israel...when did Ezekiel 38-39 happen? My father is convinced this about a coming war with Iran. I think further discussion about why Israel is the object of so much focus might help move these threads further. Blessings, Carrie

Hello Carrie. It's great to see you again.

I'd say that geographical Israel is important because of his history. That is the land of Christ Jesus, where He preached, where He was crucified, and also where He was raised. It is also filled with ancient History, with stories of the Patriarchs.

Futurist's try to accuse Preterist of being anti-Jewish, or anti-Israel. They use phrases like "replacement theology", when in truth, we preach "Fulfilled theology". The Church is not a replacement of Israel; for the Church is Israel. The Church did not begin in the first century, but in the beginning under the first Covenant. The difference then was that ancient Israel was the source of light and salvation to the world. All converts had to travel there to worship God. But in the new Covenant, Israel would be expanded beyond the Jordon rivers, through the sea, and into the sea of Gentiles. The Church expanded from the first century Israel, to all nations, thereby making them a lively part of Israel...the Israel of God (Galatians 6). Thus, we believe that the Church is an establishment based on the New Covenant that was first passed on to Israel of the flesh, and expanded to all nations. The hope and goal? To create a world filled with Jews all over the world...Jews, not by flesh, nor the Law's of Moses, or in accordance with the First Covenant. But by the Law of Spirit and of grace under the new and more perfect covenant.

Futurist's error greatly because they only define Israel biologically, and fail to see the "big picture" of what God was trying to do. He didn't choose a race to make them the masters of the world. He chose a race to bring about the Master to the world, through them. (not bad eh?) Futurist's do not understand that.

Now that the Master has long since been revealed, the only race that exists are those who are born into Christ Jesus.

I think the reason why the Futurist's are having a difficult time is that they view Israel of the flesh as a time-clock. They believe the entire world evolves around what modern day Israel does, when they have no idea that modern day Israel is not anywhere near the same as ancient Biblical Israel. That Israel hasn't existed for more than 2000 years, and it came to an end in 70AD. Since that time, Israel is not defined by its fleshly descent, but it's spiritual birth Christ Jesus.

It's unfortunate that popular myths regarding geographical Israel has continued to plague our government with foreign policies centered around geographical Israel. I agree in protecting its history, and even its people to some extent. But quacks such as John Haggee, Jack Van Impie, and Rob Parsley need to have their political influence silenced. They war-mongering attitude is anti-Christian and violates the laws of peace and grace. If Jesus wanted a peace of property defended, He would have dispatched a legion of Angels to watch over the land. It's just unfortunate that both geographical Israel, and modern day Arabia continues to fight over territory that has a great history, but no longer the light of the world. The Church is the light that is set on a tall hill for all to see. And instead of a physical Mountain that men travel to, to worship God, we have a taller mountain that all are welcomed to....the New Jerusalem which abides in the heavens, and overlooks all the kingdoms of the world. And it's King is named Jesus....the Messiah of the world.

When our society can see that, as well as the modern day Israel and the Arabs, then perhaps they will stop fighting. The Jerusalem which is from above is about peace, hope, and love. And Christ has offered them an Israel that is much larger, better, and beautiful. But because they reject it, they remain in a state of slavery; that goes for all who reject Christ.

God bless you all.

Joe

[CWH]

As a former dispensational and learning preterist, I can sympathize with Brother Cheow. As I watch the news, it is permeated with Iran vs Israel stories. Every country is affected by what Israel does or dosen't do. We have to ask ourselves...Why? Why are most churches pro-israel and teach that Israel must be supported? Is it ignorance or something more? How did Israel come to be? Was it God or a handful of powerful men? If it wasn't God, what did these men have to gain? Why is Israel shown in the media always as the underdog...the one who needs protecting? If the media is corrupt....any one with half a brain knows this to be true....who they support should send a red flag up to christians that this wrong...no? I know very well the futurists prophecies. One thing to ask while I think about Israel...when did Ezekiel 38-39 happen? My father is convinced this about a coming war with Iran. I think further discussion about why Israel is the object of so much focus might help move these threads further. Blessings, Carrie

Welcome back Homemommy :welcome:

Unfortunately I need no sympathy. I have my own belief and standby my own belief. I don't belong to the preterist and I don't belong to the full futurists. I watch the news also about Israel and Iran but my feelings are different. I see churches and America being pro-Israel and I see all Muslim countries as anti-israel. Almost every Muslim country in the world would like to see Israel wiped out from the face of the earth. Why? But the Muslim countries are unable to do so despite several attempts..the six days war, the Yom Kippur war etc. The reason is because God forbid it. The Arab -Israeli conflict will continue until God intervenes. No human could stop this conflict which started at least 4.000 years ago with Ishmael and Isaac, Esau and Jacob. I will tell you more if you are interested.

I believe the Muslim will one day be victorious over Israel and God coming to the rescue of Israel. This is just my belief.

Many Blessings.

[The Homemommy]

Welcome back Homemommy :welcome:

Unfortunately I need no sympathy. I have my own belief and standby my own belief. I don't belong to the preterist and I don't belong to the full futurists. I watch the news also about Israel and Iran but my feelings are different. I see churches and America being pro-Israel and I see all Muslim countries as anti-israel. Almost every Muslim country in the world would like to see Israel wiped out from the face of the earth. Why? But the Muslim countries are unable to do so despite several attempts..the six days war, the Yom Kippur war etc. The reason is because God forbid it. The Arab -Israeli conflict will continue until God intervenes. No human could stop this conflict which started at least 4.000 years ago with Ishmael and Isaac, Esau and Jacob. I will tell you more if you are interested.

I believe the Muslim will one day be victorious over Israel and God coming to the rescue of Israel. This is just my belief.

Many Blessings.

Cheow, Don't take what I said about sympathizing with you the wrong way. I meant I feel torn too about Israel. On one hand I am almost afraid of not supporting Israel for fear of displeasing God if in case Israel still is in God's favor plus the pressure from church, family, and deeply ingrained views taught over a lifetime. Where I live criticizing anything Israel does is very unpopular and people call me “anti-semetic” a hitler supporter, a muslim lover....as if being a muslim lover is a bad thing. Then on the other hand as I read more and more of the bible, I can't ignore that alot of the views I held concerning Israel don't quite match up. I really feel quite confused about it. Sometimes I don't know what to believe. If you read reports that come out of Gaza about what the Israelies do to the Palestinians....it's shocking if it's true. There is a report going to the UN about the Israeli war crimes, of course the U.S. and Israeli govts call it antisemetic even though the author is Jewish. I think people are afraid to speak out because of so much name calling. Why is that? In europe you can be jailed for denying the holocaust...I in no way concode that behavior as it is highly offensive to families of the victims.....but.....to be jailed for expressing opinion? That is suspect, imho. Anyway, what I am trying to say is if you feel uncomfortable questioning Israel as I do....I understand. :) Carrie

[CWH]

Cheow, Don't take what I said about sympathizing with you the wrong way. I meant I feel torn too about Israel. On one hand I am almost afraid of not supporting Israel for fear of displeasing God if in case Israel still is in God's favor plus the pressure from church, family, and deeply ingrained views taught over a lifetime. Where I live criticizing anything Israel does is very unpopular and people call me 'anti-semetic' a hitler supporter, a muslim lover....as if being a muslim lover is a bad thing. Then on the other hand as I read more and more of the bible, I can't ignore that alot of the views I held concerning Israel don't quite match up. I really feel quite confused about it. Sometimes I don't know what to believe. If you read reports that come out of Gaza about what the Israelies do to the Palestinians....it's shocking if it's true. There is a report going to the UN about the Israeli war crimes, of course the U.S. and Israeli govts call it antisemetic even though the author is Jewish. I think people are afraid to speak out because of so much name calling. Why is that? In europe you can be jailed for denying the holocaust...I in no way concode that behavior as it is highly offensive to families of the victims.....but.....to be jailed for expressing opinion? That is suspect, imho. Anyway, what I am trying to say is if you feel uncomfortable questioning Israel as I do....I understand. :) Carrie

Sorry for the misundesrtanding Carrie,

Yes, it is always good to watch events in the Middle East. The Middle East has been a very volatile region since the beginning of Israel's independence in 1948. The main reason is that the Muslims do not want Israel to exist. Getting rid of Israel means getting rid of the birthplace of Christianity and ultimately the religion, Christianity. Christianity is the only main religion competing and confronting Islam. With Christianity gone, the world will only be left with one religion with the only one God of the Muslims. The other reason according to the Muslims is that the land of Israel should rightfully belong to Esau, the forefather of the present day Palestinians and of some Arabs.

I understand your predicament, but there is one way out. Time will tell if the preterist or the futurist is right. And when that moment of truth appears, just quickly switch side. I fact in my own opinion, both preterist and futurist may be right in certain parts of their interpretations of the Scriptures, I would detest anyone who said that all their interpretations are absolutely right.

Many Blessings to you.

[Roya Dayspring]

Is the fig tree not Israel? See for yourself:

The word "fig" is mentioned in the Scriptures sixty-four times. THUS SAITH THE LORD, THE GOD OF ISRAEL; LIKE THESE GOOD FIGS, SO WILL I ACKNOWLEDGE THEM THAT ARE CARRIED AWAY CAPTIVE OF JUDAH, WHOM I HAVE SENT OUT OF THIS PLACE INTO THE LAND OF THE CHALDEANS FOR THEIR GOOD-Jere 24:5. We see the word "figs," being used to represent the Jews that are carried away.

THE LORD SHOWED ME, AND, BEHOLD, TWO BASKETS OF FIGS...ONE BASKET HAD VERY GOOD FIGS, EVEN LIKE THE FIGS THAT ARE FIRST RIPE: AND THE OTHER BASKET HAD VERY NAUGHTY FIGS, WHICH COULD NOT BE EATEN, THEY WERE SO BAD. THEN SAID THE LORD UNTO ME, WHAT SEEST THOU, JEREMIAH? AND I SAID, FIGS; THE GOOD FIGS, VERY GOOD; AND THE EVIL, VERY EVIL, THAT CANNOT BE EATEN, THEY ARE SO EVIL. AGAIN THE WORD OF THE LORD CAME UNTO ME, SAYING, THUS SAITH THE LORD, THE GOD OF ISRAEL; LIKE THESE GOOD FIGS, SO WILL I ACKNOWLEDGE THEM THAT ARE CARRIED AWAY CAPTIVE OF JUDAH, WHOM I HAVE SENT OUT OF THIS PLACE INTO THE LAND OF THE CHALDEANS FOR THEIR GOOD. FOR I WILL SET MINE EYES UPON THEM FOR GOOD, AND I WILL BRING THEM AGAIN TO THIS LAND: AND I WILL BUILD THEM, AND NOT PULL THEM DOWN; AND I WILL PLANT THEM, AND NOT PLUCK THEM UP. AND I WILL GIVE THEM A HEART TO KNOW ME, THAT I AM THE LORD: AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE, AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD: FOR THEY SHALL RETURN UNTO ME WITH THEIR WHOLE HEART. AND AS THE EVIL FIGS, WHICH CANNOT BE EATEN, THEY ARE SO EVIL-Jere 24:1-8. The word "figs" is used here eight times denoting the Jews.

NOW IN THE MORNING AS HE RETURNED INTO THE CITY, HE HUNGERED. AND WHEN HE SAW A FIG TREE IN THE WAY, HE CAME TO IT, AND FOUND NOTHING THEREON, BUT LEAVES ONLY, AND SAID UNTO IT, LET NO FRUIT GROW ON THEE HENCEFORWARD FOR EVER. AND PRESENTLY THE FIG TREE WITHERED AWAY-Mt 21:18,19; ref Mk 11:12-14,20,21. The fig tree withered away, as it was producing no fruit. It may be noted that the word "fig" here represents Israel, and the word "tree" represents nation.

The nation of Israel did wither and was destroyed. Nevertheless, the nation of Israel was reborn and will fulfill God’s mission during the Tribulation.

See my post which I have discussed with Carrie a few months ago:

32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[d]is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation[e] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Now, what does "fig tree" means? what does "twigs get tender and leaves come out" means? what does "summer is near" means? If you can understand what it means then, you will understand what "this generation" was He talking about.

What it means in my own interpretation is this:
Now learn this, when you see Israel (fig tree) got its independence (twigs get tender and leaves come out) in May 14, 1948, you will know that summer is near (summer in UK starts from May 15, and generally in the Northern hemisphere, summer starts in June). Truly, I tell you, this generation (those who was born during Israel's independence) will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Many Blessings to all.

You hit the nail on the head. All events have been unfolding according to Hoyle. We are "this generation" Thank you for your accurate interpretation.

[The Homemommy]

You hit the nail on the head. All events have been unfolding according to Hoyle. We are "this generation" Thank you for your accurate interpretation.

How long is a generation? When does a generation start and end? Does it apply to only those people alive in 1948? Seeing how I was born in 1981, does this leave me out?

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

Originally Posted by Roya Dayspring
You hit the nail on the head. All events have been unfolding according to Hoyle. We are "this generation" Thank you for your accurate interpretation.
Sorry for your delusion.
This is why I post with this sig name.
The end of the operation of the mosaic covnenat was propesied in Deut 32, added to in Daniels prophecies, other prophets and by the Olivet and fulfilled in THAT generation.

The present state of Israel as a fulfillment of prophecy is a delusion created by the zionist/Elitist causes as they injected false theology into our churches, bible colleges and seminaries.

Was just discussing in another forum about the return to the land in Deut 30 was accomplished after the Babylonian captivity. Daniel in chapter 9 and Neh in chapter 1 BOTH acknowledged and confessed the sins of the people against the mosaic covenant AND both expected by faith a restoration after the captivity. This time period in Deut 30 was eventually followed by the incarnation of the Word, circumcision of the heart (both fulfilled in Christ, to those who believe) the continued unbelief of SOME of Israel of the flesh who wished to use the Mosaic covenant nation to advance or maintain their 'kingdom' and superiority. This resulted in wrath upon them, final closure of the broken covenant (Deut 32) and the final fulfillment of the types and shadows including the times and seasons that were designed into that covenant. Hebrews contrasts some of the various inferiorities of the mosaic covenant and shows their types.

Biblically speaking the 'nation' of Israel was only a nation after Moses addressed them and they crossed the Jordan. Biblically speaking the purposes of that land/nation conditional covenant fulfilled their purposes by confirming the times and seasons of the new covenant of Christ's incarnation, his blood and the Giving of His Spirit. The nation born in a day of Isaiah 65 or 66 is not 1948, but the international nation of the new Covenant born in the support of the Power of God the 'day' the armies circled Jerusalem and the christians escaped BACK ACROSS THE JORDAN to Pella.

The surrounding verses of that chapter all speak of events and circumstances that occured at that time. A voice from the temple was heard saying 'lets get out of here'; A voice from the city, was referring to a man name 'jesus' who for 7 ? years before the desolation daily proclaimed woes to Jeruslam Judea, and the people.


4I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

5Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.

6A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies.

7Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. (How much does this sound like the Christians escaping to Pella before the tribulation came)

8Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

9Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.

10Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:

11That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.

12For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees.

Ask the Holy Spirit with an open heart and he will show you. check out some of the info at preterist archive dot com. It archives information from anything from hyper pret to hyper dispy.

Concerning 'this generation'. Here is what one writer tells about how our churches were brought to believe that this was referring something other than that generation who Jesus spoke to.

http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/hoax/greatesthoax.htm


Well, here is one reason. Virtually all of the prophecy that is being preached in the church buildings today has come from a scheme of Bible interpretation propagated by C.I. Scofield early in the 1900's. [emphasis added]

Organized religion embraced Scofield's new interpretations. (In Scofield's own writings – What Do the Prophets Say? he admits to having "controversy with well-meaning bible students over the too exclusively Jewish conception of the age to come." P161).

Let's examine what Scofield says about Matthew 24 in his reference notes and I will show you how he intentionally has mislead those individuals who have chosen to adopt his schemes. In verse 34, Christ tells His disciples, Verily I say unto you. This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Scofield says in his notes that we know that Christ could not have possibly been referring to that generation in which the disciples were living because of the definitions of the Greek words for generation. He says that generation here comes from the Greek word GENEA. Well, it does. It is number 1074 in the Greek dictionary of Strong's Concordance. But, the deceiver does not give you the definition of GENEA, he instead goes down to 1085 – GENOS – and gives you that definition, all the while telling you that he is giving you the definition for GENEA.

He uses the definition GENOS, which says, "off-spring, stock, nation, et.al." and tells you that it means that the word generation in Matthew 24:34 can mean A FUTURE GENERATION and NOT the one that Christ was talking to 2,000 years ago! Not only that but he also says that we KNOW that He was talking about a future generation because "NONE OF THESE THINGS, I.E. THE WORLD-WIDE PREACHING OF THE KINGDOM HAS EVER TAKEN PLACE".

If that were true, then I would have no choice but to concede that as the truth, and stop writing this booklet immediately. But, somehow this great Bible scholar seems to be missing some passages of Scripture that are in my Bible, but simply must not have been in his or any other ‘preacher's' in this country.

LOOK at Colossians 1:23!

COLOSSIANS 1:23 – READ THIS VERSE!!! Paul says TO THE COLOSSIANS – 2,000 years ago!!! –

If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye HAVE HEARD, AND WHICH WAS PREACHED TO EVERY CREATURE WHICH IS UNDER HEAVEN; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

WHAT???? Paul said that the gospel was preached to every creature which is under heaven! Did the apostle Paul make the same kind of ‘mistakes' that the Lord Jesus made when He taught? Was Paul misleading these people? Was he lying to them? Paul also told them earlier in verses five and six that the gospel had come unto them as it IS IN ALL THE WORLD! How could Scofield say that WE KNOW that the word generation of Matthew 24:34 could not have meant that generation because the gospel had never been preached to the whole world?

My friends, the gospel not only filled the Roman Empire, which is all it had to do to fulfill the Bible prophecy, but it was preached to EVERY CREATURE WHICH IS UNDER HEAVEN!

[CWH]

Thanks Roya Dayspring for your comment:


You hit the nail on the head. All events have been unfolding according to Hoyle. We are "this generation" Thank you for your accurate interpretation.

To answer Carrie regarding "generation", I have said i my earlier post that it is difficult to assign a number of years as a generation. Let's not use modern definition of a generation which is about 40 years but apply what the Bible defines as a generation. How do you apply a generation in terms of number of years to those people living in the pre-Flood time when they were living hundreds of years? Do you apply a generation as 120 years when man's lifespan was reduced after the Flood? Isaaih said man's lifespan is about 100 years. I personally think that a generation probably means those living at that period in time such as the computer generation, the Hippie generation etc,. Therefore, the generation here means those living or born during the independence of Israel in 1948.

As for EndtimesDeut32, I am interested in your definition of "man-child"? Many of us think it refers to Jesus. But I think it may refers to Israel or more likely to Christianity in which Christ is the Father of Christianity i.e. "man-child":


7Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. (How much does this sound like the Christians escaping to Pella before the tribulation came).

8Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

9Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.

If the "man=cild" refers to Israel then it may have some significance in the declaration of Israel's independence as it was done quickly in one day as according to wiki. It was done quickly and in secrecy so as to prevent the British who administered Israel at that time from stopping the declaration and from the Arabs who intended to invade Israel should Israel be made independent by the British.

Many Blessings.

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

As for EndtimesDeut32, I am interested in your definition of "man-child"? Many of us think it refers to Jesus. But I think it may refers to Israel or more likely to Christianity in which Christ is the Father of Christianity i.e. "man-child":
If the "man=cild" refers to Israel then it may have some significance in the declaration of Israel's independence as it was done quickly in one day as according to wiki. It was done quickly and in secrecy so as to prevent the British who administered Israel at that time from stopping the declaration and from the Arabs who intended to invade Israel should Israel be made independent by the British.

Many Blessings.
I have not studied the word man-child in detail but Is 66 and 1 was fulfilled in the first century. In my present opinion, the 'man child' is the church. The child aspect are those who are likened to 'sons of God' John 1:12,13, and as Having a father that we can call 'Daddy'.. Abba. We are to have 'childlike' absolute faith, etc. The man aspect of it is the concept that the body of Christ is 40 yrs old by this time from 30 AD to 70 AD Thus it is a fully developed 'nation' (man of 40) and yet a child who calls the Creator "Daddy". The church is conceived and reared in Jerusalem and is ready to be 'delivered' as the nation of all peoples and languages.

After Gauis circled Jerusalem, he left and suffered great losses in his defeat. This was the signal for the beleivers in Judea to escape back across the Jordan to the Wilderness. The following year at passover (I think) Titus circled Jerusalem, thus preventing the Jews from chasing after the Christians. The man-child was delivered before Jerusalem began it's specific tribulation.

Before Israel travailed would refer to just before the tribulation actually started for Israel by Titus' seige. Before zion travailed (began the tribulation) she delivered her manchild. The church escaped the seige. Not one christian life was lost to the Romans at this time. Only a few months earlier their faith was tested by persecution and torture at both the hands of the Romans (probably through instigation of the Judaizers) and from the persecution, killings and oppression/theft of property of the unbelieving sects of the Jews.

Thus the church in Jerusalem and Judea was getting hit both from Rome and from the Jews in what would seem to be an attempted extinction. The beast warred against the saints as described towards the end of Dan 7.

The day of the birth would likely be the day that Titus besieged Jerusalem, sealing off any Jews from chasing after the church as it fled to the wilderness east of the Jordan. I think Rev 13 is associated with this. This was the establishment of the international saints of Christ the creator/lawgiver/redeemer and his kingdom in POWER.

The blessing and fullness of God was evident in the filling of the Spirit among the people and it would have created intense hatred for them from the religiously minded who desired to retain their nation and the pre-eminence of their race. When they escaped and the poeple would have heard about the Roman armies coming, they would have likely and rightfully felt that the Christians had recieved the blessing and fullness of God which would have increased their hatred even more.

I could go onto more applications of the fulfillments of things mentioned in Is 66 but I think I mentioned some of them above.

[CWH]

Thanks EndTimesDeut32,

This somewhat confirms my understanding that "man-child" of Isaiah 66 and "male child" of Revelation 12 does not necessary means Jesus, and the woman does not necessary means Mary. Let's not jump into conclusion so fast that the "man-child" and the "male child" must be Jesus. I believe "man-child" and "male child is the Church which I term as Christianity in general. The man-child of Isaiah 66 is related to the male child of Revelation 12.

The verses in Isaiah 66 are interesting:

Isaiah 66:
"Before she goes into labor, she gives birth; before the pains come upon her, she delivers a son.*8 Who has ever heard of such a thing? Who has ever seen such things? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children. 9 Do I bring to the moment of birth and not give delivery?" says the LORD. 


It seems to suggest the birth of a nation in a day with Zionists in painful struggle. It delievered a male child. It certainly sounds like the birth of the independence of Israel which happened within a day and at the exact end of the British mandate for Israel in 1948. The Zionists took over the independence of Israel after much in-struggles with some bloodshed. Israel 1st prime minister was a male, Ben Gurion.

Looking further in Revelation 12 about the "male child" is even more amazing:

Revelation 12: 1A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. 4His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. 5She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.

A woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and 12 stars on her head seems to suggest Israel. Cried out in pain before birth seems to suggest the birth of independent Israel was brought about with some struggles and blood shed. The red dragon with 7 heads and seven crowns and 10 horns is suggestive of the Arab League who was poised to invade Israel the moment it received its independence so as to devour the "male-child" i.e. the Church or Christianity. The Church or Christianity was poised to rule the world with strong authority.

Please see wiki on the independence of Israel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Independence_(Israel)

Please refer to my post on 12 stars and the EU:
http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=966

Excerpts from wiki on the history of Israel:

After 1945 the United Kingdom became embroiled in an increasingly violent conflict with the Jews.[55] In 1947, the British government withdrew from commitment to the Mandate of Palestine, stating it was unable to arrive at a solution acceptable to both Arabs and Jews.[56] The newly created United Nations approved the UN Partition Plan (United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181) on November 29, 1947, dividing the country into two states, one Arab and one Jewish. Jerusalem was to be designated an international city — a corpus separatum — administered by the UN to avoid conflict over its status.[57] The Jewish community accepted the plan,[58] but the Arab League and Arab Higher Committee rejected it.[59] On December 1, 1947 the Arab Higher Committee proclaimed a three-day strike, and Arab bands began attacking Jewish targets. Civil war began with the Jews initially on the defensive but gradually moving into offence. The Palestinian-Arab economy collapsed and 250,000 Palestinian-Arabs fled or were expelled.[60]

On May 14, 1948, the day before the end of the British Mandate, the Jewish Agency proclaimed independence, naming the country Israel; it was not until this day that the world knew that the new state would be called Israel.[61] The following day the armies of five Arab countries — Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq — attacked Israel, launching the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.[62] Morocco, Sudan, Yemen and Saudi Arabia also sent troops to assist the invaders.

Many Blessings.

[Rose]

Thanks EndTimesDeut32,

This somewhat confirms my understanding that "man-child" of Isaiah 66 and "male child" of Revelation 12 does not necessary means Jesus, and the woman does not necessary means Mary. Let's not jump into conclusion so fast that the "man-child" and the "male child" must be Jesus. I believe "man-child" and "male child is the Church which I term as Christianity in general. The man-child of Isaiah 66 is related to the male child of Revelation 12.

The verses in Isaiah 66 are interesting:

Isaiah 66:
"Before she goes into labor, she gives birth; before the pains come upon her, she delivers a son.*8 Who has ever heard of such a thing? Who has ever seen such things? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children. 9 Do I bring to the moment of birth and not give delivery?" says the LORD. 


It seems to suggest the birth of a nation in a day with Zionists in painful struggle. It delievered a male child. It certainly sounds like the birth of the independence of Israel which happened within a day and at the exact end of the British mandate for Israel in 1948. The Zionists took over the independence of Israel after much in-struggles with some bloodshed. Israel 1st prime minister was a male, Ben Gurion.

Looking further in Revelation 12 about the "male child" is even more amazing:

Revelation 12: 1A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. 4His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. 5She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.

A woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and 12 stars on her head seems to suggest Israel. Cried out in pain before birth seems to suggest the birth of independent Israel was brought about with some struggles and blood shed. The red dragon with 7 heads and seven crowns and 10 horns is suggestive of the Arab League who was poised to invade Israel the moment it received its independence so as to devour the "male-child" i.e. the Church or Christianity. The Church or Christianity was poised to rule the world with strong authority.

Please see wiki on the independence of Israel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Independence_(Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Independence_%28Israel))

Please refer to my post on 12 stars and the EU:
http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=966

Many Blessings.

Hi Cheow,

Of course the connection between Isaiah 66 and Revelation 12 is amazing, but it's not quite the way you described it. It's a prophecy of the birth of Christ....

The Woman in Rev. 12 is Israel, that is why she has the 12 stars which represent the 12 Tribes. Israel, represented by the woman is the one who brings forth the Man Child (who is Jesus the Messiah). Then it tells us that the Man Child is taken up to His Throne in heaven, and is the One who "rules with a rod of Iron". This Man Child can be no one other than Jesus!

The last verse of Rev.12 tells us that the seed of the Woman (Israel), are the ones who hold the testimony of Christ (the Church). It all fits perfectly.
Rev.12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Seems pretty clear...:winking0071:

Rose

[CWH]

HI Rose

This is what brother EndtimesDeut32 wrote that the man-child is the church:

I have not studied the word man-child in detail but Is 66 and 1 was fulfilled in the first century. In my present opinion, the 'man child' is the church. The child aspect are those who are likened to 'sons of God' John 1:12,13, and as Having a father that we can call 'Daddy'.. Abba. We are to have 'childlike' absolute faith, etc. The man aspect of it is the concept that the body of Christ is 40 yrs old by this time from 30 AD to 70 AD Thus it is a fully developed 'nation' (man of 40) and yet a child who calls the Creator "Daddy". The church is conceived and reared in Jerusalem and is ready to be 'delivered' as the nation of all peoples and languages.

At least we both agreed that the woman is Israel:) . If Isaiah 66 and Revelation 12 are related, then I would expect the meaning of the man-child in both chapters to be the same representing the Church.


Rose said:
The last verse of Rev.12 tells us that the seed of the Woman (Israel), are the ones who hold the testimony of Christ (the Church).

If the Woman is Israel then to me, the seed of the Woman(Israel) are the faithful Jews (people of Israel) or perhaps Christians who hold fast to the words of God.

Many Blessings to you.

[The Homemommy]

Thanks EndTimesDeut32,

This somewhat confirms my understanding that "man-child" of Isaiah 66 and "male child" of Revelation 12 does not necessary means Jesus, and the woman does not necessary means Mary. Let's not jump into conclusion so fast that the "man-child" and the "male child" must be Jesus. I believe "man-child" and "male child is the Church which I term as Christianity in general. The man-child of Isaiah 66 is related to the male child of Revelation 12.

The verses in Isaiah 66 are interesting:

Isaiah 66:
"Before she goes into labor, she gives birth; before the pains come upon her, she delivers a son.*8 Who has ever heard of such a thing? Who has ever seen such things? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children. 9 Do I bring to the moment of birth and not give delivery?" says the LORD. 


It seems to suggest the birth of a nation in a day with Zionists in painful struggle. It delievered a male child. It certainly sounds like the birth of the independence of Israel which happened within a day and at the exact end of the British mandate for Israel in 1948. The Zionists took over the independence of Israel after much in-struggles with some bloodshed. Israel 1st prime minister was a male, Ben Gurion.

Looking further in Revelation 12 about the "male child" is even more amazing:

Revelation 12: 1A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. 4His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. 5She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.

A woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and 12 stars on her head seems to suggest Israel. Cried out in pain before birth seems to suggest the birth of independent Israel was brought about with some struggles and blood shed. The red dragon with 7 heads and seven crowns and 10 horns is suggestive of the Arab League who was poised to invade Israel the moment it received its independence so as to devour the "male-child" i.e. the Church or Christianity. The Church or Christianity was poised to rule the world with strong authority.

Please see wiki on the independence of Israel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Independence_(Israel)

Please refer to my post on 12 stars and the EU:
http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=966

Excerpts from wiki on the history of Israel:

After 1945 the United Kingdom became embroiled in an increasingly violent conflict with the Jews.[55] In 1947, the British government withdrew from commitment to the Mandate of Palestine, stating it was unable to arrive at a solution acceptable to both Arabs and Jews.[56] The newly created United Nations approved the UN Partition Plan (United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181) on November 29, 1947, dividing the country into two states, one Arab and one Jewish. Jerusalem was to be designated an international city — a corpus separatum — administered by the UN to avoid conflict over its status.[57] The Jewish community accepted the plan,[58] but the Arab League and Arab Higher Committee rejected it.[59] On December 1, 1947 the Arab Higher Committee proclaimed a three-day strike, and Arab bands began attacking Jewish targets. Civil war began with the Jews initially on the defensive but gradually moving into offence. The Palestinian-Arab economy collapsed and 250,000 Palestinian-Arabs fled or were expelled.[60]

On May 14, 1948, the day before the end of the British Mandate, the Jewish Agency proclaimed independence, naming the country Israel; it was not until this day that the world knew that the new state would be called Israel.[61] The following day the armies of five Arab countries — Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq — attacked Israel, launching the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.[62] Morocco, Sudan, Yemen and Saudi Arabia also sent troops to assist the invaders.

Many Blessings.

Hi, You lost me on the part about the man-child being the church in 1948. The majority of the jews in Israel didn't/don't accept Christ in 1948/2009. They aren't Christians. So how can this be talking about modern Israel?

[CWH]

Hi, You lost me on the part about the man-child being the church in 1948. The majority of the jews in Israel didn't/don't accept Christ in 1948/2009. They aren't Christians. So how can this be talking about modern Israel?

Hi Carrie,

Yes, Christians are a minority in Israel about 3% of the population. But throughout history, God has shown mercy to the people of Israel...they did not suffer much under the Ottoman Empire(Muslim), they won every war fought in the Middle East in the modern times, the crusaders are willing to die to liberate the Holy land, Christian nations supported Israel....They did all these YET Israel is still not a Christian country! Why? The main reasons are because Israel is a Holy Land and the Jews are God's chosen people and God has been continually showing mercy to Israel. The Jews rejected Jesus as their Messiah and yet merciful God has been patiently waiting for the Jews to accept Jesus. The time will come when all Jews will accept Jesus and thus Israel will become a true Christian church. Currently, there are about 300,000 Christians in Israel; Is God going to forsake these Christian Jews just because Israel is not a Christian country? Didn't accept Christ does not mean God don't love the Jews, God has been patiently waiting when all Jews will one day accept Jesus as their Messiah:

'For you are a holy people unto the LORD your God: the LORD your God hath chosen you to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because you were more in number than any people; for you were the fewest of all people: But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers…' (Deuteronomy 7:6-8).

Even if the man-child is Jesus, it is still valid as Jesus represents the Church and Christianity, (just like a king represents his kingdom) which will one day rule the world with an iron scepter.

Revelation 12:5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.

Many Blessings to you.

[TheForgiven]

Hi Carrie,

Yes, Christians are a minority in Israel about 3% of the population. But throughout history, God has shown mercy to the people of Israel...they did not suffer much under the Ottoman Empire(Muslim)

Huh, that would be because the Jews of that age teamed up with the Muslims to force out the Church. The Muslims felt that Gentiles didn't deserve to be in a land they viewed as Holy. Obviously the Jews felt the same way. (Note: They are not Jews, I just refer to them as Jews in accordance with your acceptance and understand).


they won every war fought in the Middle East in the modern times, the crusaders are willing to die to liberate the Holy land, Christian nations supported Israel....They did all these YET Israel is still not a Christian country! Why?

That's not entirely true. Samaria had plenty of Christians, but they fled when the Muslims began persecuting them years back when the Iraqi war began.


The main reasons are because Israel is a Holy Land and the Jews are God's chosen people and God has been continually showing mercy to Israel.

Chosen people? Chosen for what? You say this as though God just merely "chose" a people to be His favorite. That is not true at all. God "Chose" a people to bring forth the Messiah, through the Jewish blood lines as defined by Tribe.


The Jews rejected Jesus as their Messiah and yet merciful God has been patiently waiting for the Jews to accept Jesus.

And not just them, but all of mankind. I take it you've never been to a Greek Orthodox service. The one in my city is all Jewish....surprised? But shouldn't they be in a state of hardened? Or is God selective on which Jew He wants to keep in the theoretical blindness?


The time will come when all Jews will accept Jesus and thus Israel will become a true Christian church. Currently, there are about 300,000 Christians in Israel; Is God going to forsake these Christian Jews just because Israel is not a Christian country? Didn't accept Christ does not mean God don't love the Jews, God has been patiently waiting when all Jews will one day accept Jesus as their Messiah:

That is a myth brother Cheow. You're teaching automated salvation through some kind of miraculous event or something. It also blasphemes the love of God as though they (Jews) are still in a state of rejection. You'd be surprised how many Christian Jews there are. I'm one, Richard is one, you are one, we all are one. But I understand you still believe that a biological Jew has a special place in God's heart. That is a false doctrine which has no biblical support in modern times.


'For you are a holy people unto the LORD your God: the LORD your God hath chosen you to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because you were more in number than any people; for you were the fewest of all people: But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers…' (Deuteronomy 7:6-8).

The "oath" was for them to inherit a land of rest. So tell me. Is this land of rest future? Or is this now? Not future, but now. For the land was given to them by God when Joshua led them into the promised land. But God spoke of another land of rest, through with all would worship Him. This is the Mountain referred to as the New Jerusalem. That is the promised land of Abraham, and the Patriarchs. Through Abram, we became his descendants, and he became the father of "MANY" nations....not one, but many.


Even if the man-child is Jesus, it is still valid as Jesus represents the Church and Christianity, (just like a king represents his kingdom) which will one day rule the world with an iron scepter.

Be very careful Cheow. Because now you're suggesting that Jesus isn't currently reigning. To do so is a denial of His responsibility over the nations.

Jesus states, "I have been given the keys to death and Hades.."

and again,

"Look at the children Whom the father has given me...."

and again,

"All authority on heaven and on earth has been given unto me...."

Sounds like He's reigning to me.

Brother Choew you're still advocating a doctrine that was nailed to the cross. God no longer deals with the world through a single nation formerly called Israel. God deals with all nations through Christ Jesus, that He may be all, in all, and all worship Him in Spirit, and in Truth. What you are advocating is racial discrimination. Finally, there is no blindness upon ancient Israel. Isaiah shows that this time of hardening ended in 70AD, when the cities and land were laid wasted. Isaiah asked how long the spirit of stupor would last, and God answered Him as shown.

One day you'll see brother Cheow. But until you let go of the flesh, you'll never see.

Joe

[The Homemommy]

Hi Carrie,

Yes, Christians are a minority in Israel about 3% of the population. But throughout history, God has shown mercy to the people of Israel...they did not suffer much under the Ottoman Empire(Muslim), they won every war fought in the Middle East in the modern times, the crusaders are willing to die to liberate the Holy land, Christian nations supported Israel....They did all these YET Israel is still not a Christian country! Why? The main reasons are because Israel is a Holy Land and the Jews are God's chosen people and God has been continually showing mercy to Israel. The Jews rejected Jesus as their Messiah and yet merciful God has been patiently waiting for the Jews to accept Jesus. The time will come when all Jews will accept Jesus and thus Israel will become a true Christian church. Currently, there are about 300,000 Christians in Israel; Is God going to forsake these Christian Jews just because Israel is not a Christian country? Didn't accept Christ does not mean God don't love the Jews, God has been patiently waiting when all Jews will one day accept Jesus as their Messiah:

“For you are a holy people unto the LORD your God: the LORD your God hath chosen you to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because you were more in number than any people; for you were the fewest of all people: But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers…” (Deuteronomy 7:6-8).

Even if the man-child is Jesus, it is still valid as Jesus represents the Church and Christianity, (just like a king represents his kingdom) which will one day rule the world with an iron scepter.

Revelation 12:5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.

Many Blessings to you.

Hey, Please help me with these questions. I don't understand the blindness part. I know how preterists explain it, but are jews blind at birth? Is this something different that they are born with that other people don't have? What happens if a unbelieving jew dies? Do they go to heaven? Thanks in advance for answering my questions. :) Carrie

[CWH]

Hey, Please help me with these questions. I don't understand the blindness part. I know how preterists explain it, but are jews blind at birth? Is this something different that they are born with that other people don't have? What happens if a unbelieving jew dies? Do they go to heaven? Thanks in advance for answering my questions. :) Carrie

Hi Carrie,

Of course like all unbelievers, you know what awaits them, Jews or non-Jews. BTW, all of us are subject to the merciful forgiveness of God in order to go to heaven. Not all who said "Lord, Lord" will go to heaven but those who did the will of the Father in heaven. To understand why Jews don't believe in Jesus, I have pasted an article from the web:

Why don't Jews believe in Jesus?

Scriptural References
In order to understand anything in the Torah one must look at the original Hebrew. You will see that the Christians distorted, changed and misinterpreted many of the Hebrew words in order to fit things into their beliefs. The two places that you mentioned are good examples. In Psalm 22:17 the Hebrew states "hikifuni ca'ari yaday veraglay" which means "they bound me (hikifuni) like a lion (ca-like ari-lion), my hands (yaday) and my feet (ve-and raglay-my feet). The Christians translate this as "they pierced my hands and feet". Nowhere in the entire Torah, Prophets and Writings do the words ca'ari or hikifuny mean anything remotely resembling "pierce".

In Isaiah 7:14 the Hebrew states "hinei ha'almah harah veyoledet ben" "behold (hineih) the young woman (ha - the almah- young woman) is pregnant (harah) and shall give birth (ve-and yoledet-shall give birth) to a son (ben)". The Christians translate this as "behold a virgin shall give birth." They have made two mistakes (probably deliberate) in the one verse. They mistranslate "ha" as "a" instead of "the". They mistranslate "almah" as "virgin", when in fact the Hebrew word for virgin is "betulah". Aside from the fact that if you read the context of that prediction you will see clearly that it is predicting an event that was supposed to happen and be seen by king Achaz who lived 700 years before Jesus!


Genealogy
He was not descended from the House of David. According to Jewish law, tribal identification comes from the father's side, being Jewish, from the mother's side. According to Matthew 1, Joseph was descended from David (Although there are many contradictions between his genealogy there and that listed in Luke, however according to the same text, Joseph did not have sexual relations with Mary, therefore Jesus was not related to Joseph, and not a descendant of King David.

Three answers to this problem are given in classic Christian sources:

The genealogy is that of Mary - This is inadequate, since if he is claimed to be the Jewish messiah, and according to Jewish tradition he must be descended on his father's side, Mary's genealogy is irrelevant.
He was adopted by Joseph -According to Jewish law, adoption does not change the status of the child. If an Israelite is adopted by a Cohen, (A descendant of Aaron the High Priest), the child does not become a Cohen, likewise if a descendant of David, adopts someone who is not, he does not become of the tribe of Judah and a descendant of David.
It doesn't matter, he was a spiritual inheritor of King David - If it doesn't matter, why do Christian scriptures spend time establishing his genealogical pedigree? And if he is claimed to be the Jewish messiah, then according to Jewish tradition it does matter!

Messianic Predictions
The main predictions concerning the Messiah are that he will bring peace to the world, gather the Jewish people from their exile to the land of Israel and rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem. After Jesus' appearance, the Temple was destroyed, the Jews were exiled all over the world and we have not even had one day of peace in the past 2,000 years. (Many of the wars in fact were started and fought by followers of Jesus) These events are enough to show that he was not the messiah.

The main Christian responses to these objections are:

The Second Coming - First of all, we find this to be a contrived answer, since there is no mention of a second coming in the Jewish Bible. Second, why couldn't G-d accomplish His goals the first time round. Most importantly, the second coming idea is just an attempt at answering an obvious question but it certainly does not constitute proof of messianic claims.
There is peace within his followers hearts - That is wonderful for them, but does that help the victims of the Inquisition, the Crusades, the Hundred Years War, the First World War, the Second World War etc. In each of the events that I mentioned most if not all the combatants, the violent oppressors and torturers where people who claimed to be followers of Jesus. And is peace in the heart a fulfillment of "swords into plowshares etc."

Messiah's Qualifications
Messiah is a prophet, a scholar and a pious king. Jesus made a prediction that "The time is fulfilled, the kingdom of God is at hand." (Mark 1:15) That was 2000 years ago, has the kingdom of God come? Do you call the holocaust, Pol Pot and Stalin a world in which the kingdom of God has come? Jesus was not a great scholar - one of the requirements of the Messiah. Was Jesus a king? He was not anointed as king by a prophet (as was the rule in Jewish kings), he was not appointed by any judicial body as a leader and he did not rule over the Jewish people nor was he accepted by them. He was arrested, tortured and killed by the Romans like a common criminal. He had no army or government. The answer to my question is an obvious, "no."

The Trinity
The Christian idea of a trinity contradicts the most basic tenet of Judaism - that G-d is One. Jews have declared their belief in a single unified G-d twice daily ever since the giving of the Torah at Sinai - almost two thousand years before Christianity.

The trinity suggests a three part deity: The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost (Matthew 28:19).

In Jewish law, worship of a three-part god is considered idolatry; one of the three cardinal sins for which a person should rather give up his life than transgress. The idea of the trinity is absolutely incompatible with Judaism.


Physical Manifestation
Christianity believes that G-d came down to earth in human form, as Jesus said: "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30).

The Torah states that G-d cannot not take any form.:

"You will not be able to see My face, for no human can see my face and live" (Exodus 33:18-20)

"You did not see any form on the day G-d spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of fire" (Deuteronomy 4:15)

As little as we may know about G-d's nature, Judaism has always believed that G-d is Incorporeal, meaning that He assumes no physical form. G-d is Eternal, He is Infinite; above time and beyond space. He cannot be born, and cannot die.

Christianity denies the eternal relevance of Torah Law, basing the concept of the New Testament on a mistranslation of a verse in Jeremia.
In Jeremia 31:30 the Hebrew states: "Henei yamim baim Neum Hashem VeCharati Brit Chadash" They translate: "Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new Testament with the house of Israel "

"Brit" does not mean Testament. Throughout Scripture "Brit" means covenant. See for example Genesis 17:2, 15:18 Exodus 24:8, Leviticus 26:42, Numbers 25:12.

It is a fundamental principle of Judaism that the Torah received at Sinai will never be changed nor become obsolete. This concept is mentioned in the Torah no less than 24 times, with the words:

"This is an eternal law for all generations"

(Exodus 12:14, 12:17, 12:43, 27:21, 28:43, Leviticus 3:17, 7:36, 10:9, 16:29, 16:31, 16:34, 17:7, 23:14, 23:21, 23:31, 23:41, 24:3, Numbers 10:8, 15:15, 19:10, 19:21, 18:23, 35:29, Deuteronomy29:28)

It is absurd to accept the Divine origin of the Torah yet deny it's eternal relevance. Judaism is a religion of action; it has always taught that through performance of the commandments one declares the belief of the heart. To dispense with the legal body of the Torah and reduce it to a book of morals would cut it down to less than half it's size. Can this really be the meaning of those words an eternal law for all generations?

I am likewise like you with my doubts... Why God paid so much attention to the Jews? what so special about the Jews? What so special about Israel? Why not the Chinese and China, Indians and India, why not the US and the Americans? etc. I personally believe all races and nations are blessed by God one way or another. But is it of the same degree? If not, why not? I have yet to receive any insight...anyone?

Many Blessings

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

“For you are a holy people unto the LORD your God: the LORD your God hath chosen you to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because you were more in number than any people; for you were the fewest of all people: But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers…” (Deuteronomy 7:6-8).

Many Blessings to you.

Hi Cheow,
In this forum, there is a degree of respect shown to most posters even if they have totally opposite perspectives. For this I am appreciative and in this spirit.

As is common on making doctrinal statements or stances, when partial survey of relevant information is used, it can skew the positions lopsidedly.


Here are some further info to add.


Understand therefore, that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou [art] a stiffnecked people.

Earlier he said after they had made the golden calf:
Let me alone, that I may destroy them, and blot out their name from under heaven: and I will make of thee a nation mightier and greater than they.

Deu 4:37 And because he loved thy fathers, therefore he chose their seed after them, and brought thee out in his sight with his mighty power out of Egypt;
Deu 10:15 Only the LORD had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them, [even] you above all people, as [it is] this day.

As you read through Duet 4-11 and also later, it is not due to their genetic lineage, but due to their having seen the wonders and miracles of God that they are chosen. And it is only those who are of the 'seed after' the fathers. This again defines 'seed' as those of like spiritual characteristics. It is not 'seed' meaning physical progeny who came after them, but the 3 fathers 'seed' after (following like characteristics) them. Where is that verse that rose mentioned in Psalms about the lives of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob being as 'law' to them.?

Again, it seems as though there is a promise to the physical descendancy through the generational covenant (race) and one to the spiritual "seed" of Gods' salvation and blessings which follows after the characteristics of his working with/in Abraham, Isaac, Jacob. Does the land/nation conditional covenant belong to the former people and has ended, or is it extended to the 'seed' of salvation people in Christ.? Or do the principles of the land promised to Abraham, being that everywhere that he would 'walk' within a day carry over to those of similar spiritual characteristics... "seed".?

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

Hi Carrie,

Of course like all unbelievers, you know what awaits them, Jews or non-Jews. BTW, all of us are subject to the merciful forgiveness of God in order to go to heaven. Not all who said "Lord, Lord" will go to heaven but those who did the will of the Father in heaven. To understand why Jews don't believe in Jesus, I have pasted an article from the web:

Why don't Jews believe in Jesus?

Scriptural References
In order to understand anything in the Torah one must look at the original Hebrew. You will see that the Christians distorted, changed and misinterpreted many of the Hebrew words in order to fit things into their beliefs. The two places that you mentioned are good examples. In Psalm 22:17 the Hebrew states "hikifuni ca'ari yaday veraglay" which means "they bound me (hikifuni) like a lion (ca-like ari-lion), my hands (yaday) and my feet (ve-and raglay-my feet). The Christians translate this as "they pierced my hands and feet". Nowhere in the entire Torah, Prophets and Writings do the words ca'ari or hikifuny mean anything remotely resembling "pierce".

In Isaiah 7:14 the Hebrew states "hinei ha'almah harah veyoledet ben" "behold (hineih) the young woman (ha - the almah- young woman) is pregnant (harah) and shall give birth (ve-and yoledet-shall give birth) to a son (ben)". The Christians translate this as "behold a virgin shall give birth." They have made two mistakes (probably deliberate) in the one verse. They mistranslate "ha" as "a" instead of "the". They mistranslate "almah" as "virgin", when in fact the Hebrew word for virgin is "betulah". Aside from the fact that if you read the context of that prediction you will see clearly that it is predicting an event that was supposed to happen and be seen by king Achaz who lived 700 years before Jesus!


Genealogy
He was not descended from the House of David. According to Jewish law, tribal identification comes from the father's side, being Jewish, from the mother's side. According to Matthew 1, Joseph was descended from David (Although there are many contradictions between his genealogy there and that listed in Luke, however according to the same text, Joseph did not have sexual relations with Mary, therefore Jesus was not related to Joseph, and not a descendant of King David.

Three answers to this problem are given in classic Christian sources:

The genealogy is that of Mary - This is inadequate, since if he is claimed to be the Jewish messiah, and according to Jewish tradition he must be descended on his father's side, Mary's genealogy is irrelevant.
He was adopted by Joseph -According to Jewish law, adoption does not change the status of the child. If an Israelite is adopted by a Cohen, (A descendant of Aaron the High Priest), the child does not become a Cohen, likewise if a descendant of David, adopts someone who is not, he does not become of the tribe of Judah and a descendant of David.
It doesn't matter, he was a spiritual inheritor of King David - If it doesn't matter, why do Christian scriptures spend time establishing his genealogical pedigree? And if he is claimed to be the Jewish messiah, then according to Jewish tradition it does matter!

Messianic Predictions
The main predictions concerning the Messiah are that he will bring peace to the world, gather the Jewish people from their exile to the land of Israel and rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem. After Jesus' appearance, the Temple was destroyed, the Jews were exiled all over the world and we have not even had one day of peace in the past 2,000 years. (Many of the wars in fact were started and fought by followers of Jesus) These events are enough to show that he was not the messiah.

The main Christian responses to these objections are:

The Second Coming - First of all, we find this to be a contrived answer, since there is no mention of a second coming in the Jewish Bible. Second, why couldn't G-d accomplish His goals the first time round. Most importantly, the second coming idea is just an attempt at answering an obvious question but it certainly does not constitute proof of messianic claims.
There is peace within his followers hearts - That is wonderful for them, but does that help the victims of the Inquisition, the Crusades, the Hundred Years War, the First World War, the Second World War etc. In each of the events that I mentioned most if not all the combatants, the violent oppressors and torturers where people who claimed to be followers of Jesus. And is peace in the heart a fulfillment of "swords into plowshares etc."

Messiah's Qualifications
Messiah is a prophet, a scholar and a pious king. Jesus made a prediction that "The time is fulfilled, the kingdom of God is at hand." (Mark 1:15) That was 2000 years ago, has the kingdom of God come? Do you call the holocaust, Pol Pot and Stalin a world in which the kingdom of God has come? Jesus was not a great scholar - one of the requirements of the Messiah. Was Jesus a king? He was not anointed as king by a prophet (as was the rule in Jewish kings), he was not appointed by any judicial body as a leader and he did not rule over the Jewish people nor was he accepted by them. He was arrested, tortured and killed by the Romans like a common criminal. He had no army or government. The answer to my question is an obvious, "no."

The Trinity
The Christian idea of a trinity contradicts the most basic tenet of Judaism - that G-d is One. Jews have declared their belief in a single unified G-d twice daily ever since the giving of the Torah at Sinai - almost two thousand years before Christianity.

The trinity suggests a three part deity: The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost (Matthew 28:19).

In Jewish law, worship of a three-part god is considered idolatry; one of the three cardinal sins for which a person should rather give up his life than transgress. The idea of the trinity is absolutely incompatible with Judaism.


Physical Manifestation
Christianity believes that G-d came down to earth in human form, as Jesus said: "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30).

The Torah states that G-d cannot not take any form.:

"You will not be able to see My face, for no human can see my face and live" (Exodus 33:18-20)

"You did not see any form on the day G-d spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of fire" (Deuteronomy 4:15)

As little as we may know about G-d's nature, Judaism has always believed that G-d is Incorporeal, meaning that He assumes no physical form. G-d is Eternal, He is Infinite; above time and beyond space. He cannot be born, and cannot die.

Christianity denies the eternal relevance of Torah Law, basing the concept of the New Testament on a mistranslation of a verse in Jeremia.
In Jeremia 31:30 the Hebrew states: "Henei yamim baim Neum Hashem VeCharati Brit Chadash" They translate: "Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new Testament with the house of Israel "

"Brit" does not mean Testament. Throughout Scripture "Brit" means covenant. See for example Genesis 17:2, 15:18 Exodus 24:8, Leviticus 26:42, Numbers 25:12.

It is a fundamental principle of Judaism that the Torah received at Sinai will never be changed nor become obsolete. This concept is mentioned in the Torah no less than 24 times, with the words:

"This is an eternal law for all generations"

(Exodus 12:14, 12:17, 12:43, 27:21, 28:43, Leviticus 3:17, 7:36, 10:9, 16:29, 16:31, 16:34, 17:7, 23:14, 23:21, 23:31, 23:41, 24:3, Numbers 10:8, 15:15, 19:10, 19:21, 18:23, 35:29, Deuteronomy29:28)

It is absurd to accept the Divine origin of the Torah yet deny it's eternal relevance. Judaism is a religion of action; it has always taught that through performance of the commandments one declares the belief of the heart. To dispense with the legal body of the Torah and reduce it to a book of morals would cut it down to less than half it's size. Can this really be the meaning of those words an eternal law for all generations?

I am likewise like you with my doubts... Why God paid so much attention to the Jews? what so special about the Jews? What so special about Israel? Why not the Chinese and China, Indians and India, why not the US and the Americans? etc. I personally believe all races and nations are blessed by God one way or another. But is it of the same degree? If not, why not? I have yet to receive any insight...anyone?

Many Blessings

Again, it seems that they view the partial testimony.

Exd 24:10 And they saw the God of Israel: and [there was] under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in [his] clearness.

Exd 24:11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

They apparently view that God's incarnation and 'word' was the law given to Moses.
This is the general perspective that I get from the article.

But as Jesus said, if they would really believe Moses, they would believe in Christ; for Moses Spoke of Christ when he talked of a prophet to come that if they did not hear that prophet their lives, nation? would be demanded of them. I think there is other allusions to Christ within Moses's teaching and the old covenant. The fact that Moses is told to make things in a "pattern" after the realities he saw in heaven should indicate that there was something "better" in the mind of God.
There are many other allusions that since this covenant was conditional, it would eventually be broken, have a captivity, a later drawaing back and a end, and latter end.

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

Thanks EndTimesDeut32,

This somewhat confirms my understanding that "man-child" of Isaiah 66 and "male child" of Revelation 12 does not necessary means Jesus, and the woman does not necessary means Mary. Let's not jump into conclusion so fast that the "man-child" and the "male child" must be Jesus. I believe "man-child" and "male child is the Church which I term as Christianity in general. The man-child of Isaiah 66 is related to the male child of Revelation 12.

The verses in Isaiah 66 are interesting:

Isaiah 66:
"Before she goes into labor, she gives birth; before the pains come upon her, she delivers a son.*8 Who has ever heard of such a thing? Who has ever seen such things? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children. 9 Do I bring to the moment of birth and not give delivery?" says the LORD. 


It seems to suggest the birth of a nation in a day with Zionists in painful struggle. It delievered a male child. It certainly sounds like the birth of the independence of Israel which happened within a day and at the exact end of the British mandate for Israel in 1948. The Zionists took over the independence of Israel after much in-struggles with some bloodshed. Israel 1st prime minister was a male, Ben Gurion.

Looking further in Revelation 12 about the "male child" is even more amazing:

Revelation 12: 1A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. 4His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. 5She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.

A woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and 12 stars on her head seems to suggest Israel. Cried out in pain before birth seems to suggest the birth of independent Israel was brought about with some struggles and blood shed. The red dragon with 7 heads and seven crowns and 10 horns is suggestive of the Arab League who was poised to invade Israel the moment it received its independence so as to devour the "male-child" i.e. the Church or Christianity. The Church or Christianity was poised to rule the world with strong authority.

Please see wiki on the independence of Israel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Independence_(Israel)

Please refer to my post on 12 stars and the EU:
http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=966

Excerpts from wiki on the history of Israel:

After 1945 the United Kingdom became embroiled in an increasingly violent conflict with the Jews.[55] In 1947, the British government withdrew from commitment to the Mandate of Palestine, stating it was unable to arrive at a solution acceptable to both Arabs and Jews.[56] The newly created United Nations approved the UN Partition Plan (United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181) on November 29, 1947, dividing the country into two states, one Arab and one Jewish. Jerusalem was to be designated an international city — a corpus separatum — administered by the UN to avoid conflict over its status.[57] The Jewish community accepted the plan,[58] but the Arab League and Arab Higher Committee rejected it.[59] On December 1, 1947 the Arab Higher Committee proclaimed a three-day strike, and Arab bands began attacking Jewish targets. Civil war began with the Jews initially on the defensive but gradually moving into offence. The Palestinian-Arab economy collapsed and 250,000 Palestinian-Arabs fled or were expelled.[60]

On May 14, 1948, the day before the end of the British Mandate, the Jewish Agency proclaimed independence, naming the country Israel; it was not until this day that the world knew that the new state would be called Israel.[61] The following day the armies of five Arab countries — Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq — attacked Israel, launching the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.[62] Morocco, Sudan, Yemen and Saudi Arabia also sent troops to assist the invaders.

Many Blessings.
Two immideate problems with applying Isaiah 66 to 1948 is (as I've been trying to show) the Mosaic covenant nation of Israel ENDED. The race served its purpose of bringing in the "Emmanuel".

Secondly, the rest of the context of Isaiah 66 refers to the time in which sacrifice were continuing and would be an abomination. Thus, this would seem to have to be before the desolation of Jerusalem and the temple. Even the nations that come to see the desolation were identified by one poster in another forum.

When you begin reading some preterist historical information from Tacticus and Josephus, the voice from the city and voice from the temple are eerily identified.
Again, there was no temple in 1948 from which a voice could be heard.

[TheForgiven]

Secondly, the rest of the context of Isaiah 66 refers to the time in which sacrifice were continuing and would be an abomination. Thus, this would seem to have to be before the desolation of Jerusalem and the temple. Even the nations that come to see the desolation were identified by one poster in another forum.

That is an interesting concept brother Duet32. I'll have to read into Isaiah 65-66 a bit more. I've always thought that the New Heaven and New Earth as explained to Isaiah has to do with the Church era...not saying I disagree with you, but denoting that you might be on to something.


When you begin reading some preterist historical information from Tacticus and Josephus, the voice from the city and voice from the temple are eerily identified.
Again, there was no temple in 1948 from which a voice could be heard.

The obsession with the 1948 theory has to do with the 18th century British/American Zionist movement. In fact, the Zionist movement has its roots back to the 18th century British era. But if you want to dig a little deeper, Newton established this theory about a rebuilding of the Jewish nation, and that possible Britain (based on his prediction) would be the country to assist the Jews in rebuilding the Jewish nation, along with Solomon's temple. However, Newton didn't view this as a prophesy regarding the rebuilding of the Jewish race forever. Rather, he viewed it as a necessity to bring about the Anti-Christ, 666.

It's ironic how modern day American Zionist's do not realize that the core of their belief stems from the predictions Newton drove himself mad into creating. There was a show which aired on the History Channel this afternoon talking about this very thing. I laughed as they quoted prophesies of Daniel and John regarding the Zionist's theory; especially his interpretation of Daniel's 1335 days. Instead of actual days, he views them as the Historicist's do, in years. Thus, he arrived at the year 2060AD as the date when the world would come to an end. Here's another interesting thing stated by Newton. He stated that something spectacular would happen in the year of 1948. Could this be coincidence? Or could this an attempt by the British Zionists to assist the Jews in returning to Jerusalem in 1948.

Well, we must first ask ourselves if newton was a prophet from God. Considering the fact that he died from mercury poisoning, I doubt very much that he was a prophet. According to the Biography of Newton, he was a mad man who drove himself insane in trying to unravel the mysteries of the Apocalypse. His writings were hidden in a box for nearly two centuries, until it was discovered an auctioned off by a British person (at least I think this is correct). It wasn't until around 1932 that Newton's writings were published in books, and thus began the furthering craze of the American Zionist movement.

The simple point is that I don't believe that God gave Newton a spirit of enlightenment to understand the Apocalypse. Rather, Newton drove nearly drove himself insane in his obsession with the mysteries. It's obvious that his understanding of Daniel's prophesies was EXTREMELY limited, and his attention was too focused on the worlds end, which most of believe will never happen. God never destroyed the earth before, and we do not believe He'll ever do it. Who spends years building something, only to have it destroyed for the sake of fear?

What say you all?

Joe

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

That is an interesting concept brother Duet32. I'll have to read into Isaiah 65-66 a bit more. I've always thought that the New Heaven and New Earth as explained to Isaiah has to do with the Church era...not saying I disagree with you, but denoting that you might be on to something.

Yes, New Heaven, New earth, of the 'new (to the jews) covenant, out from under the old covenant. Not the church era as a parenthesis, but the church era as the time of the international everlasting covenant of Mercy.
The end forever kingdom of Dan 7:27


The obsession with the 1948 theory has to do with the 18th century British/American Zionist movement. In fact, the Zionist movement has its roots back to the 18th century British era. But if you want to dig a little deeper, Newton established this theory about a rebuilding of the Jewish nation, and that possible Britain (based on his prediction) would be the country to assist the Jews in rebuilding the Jewish nation, along with Solomon's temple. However, Newton didn't view this as a prophesy regarding the rebuilding of the Jewish race forever. Rather, he viewed it as a necessity to bring about the Anti-Christ, 666.

It's ironic how modern day American Zionist's do not realize that the core of their belief stems from the predictions Newton drove himself mad into creating. There was a show which aired on the History Channel this afternoon talking about this very thing. I laughed as they quoted prophesies of Daniel and John regarding the Zionist's theory; especially his interpretation of Daniel's 1335 days. Instead of actual days, he views them as the Historicist's do, in years. Thus, he arrived at the year 2060AD as the date when the world would come to an end. Here's another interesting thing stated by Newton. He stated that something spectacular would happen in the year of 1948. Could this be coincidence? Or could this an attempt by the British Zionists to assist the Jews in returning to Jerusalem in 1948.

Well, we must first ask ourselves if newton was a prophet from God. Considering the fact that he died from mercury poisoning, I doubt very much that he was a prophet. According to the Biography of Newton, he was a mad man who drove himself insane in trying to unravel the mysteries of the Apocalypse. His writings were hidden in a box for nearly two centuries, until it was discovered an auctioned off by a British person (at least I think this is correct). It wasn't until around 1932 that Newton's writings were published in books, and thus began the furthering craze of the American Zionist movement.

The simple point is that I don't believe that God gave Newton a spirit of enlightenment to understand the Apocalypse. Rather, Newton drove nearly drove himself insane in his obsession with the mysteries. It's obvious that his understanding of Daniel's prophesies was EXTREMELY limited, and his attention was too focused on the worlds end, which most of believe will never happen. God never destroyed the earth before, and we do not believe He'll ever do it. Who spends years building something, only to have it destroyed for the sake of fear?
Joe
I caught parts of that broadcast and had heard of Newtons interest in prophecy. He is featured on various historicist websites. Newton may have started out as naturally inspired by God to discover mathmatical theories and laws, and perhaps it was the church itself which prodded him towards 'unraveling he mysteries" But if the church fed him false historical information and factors, his answers would have reflected his madness and false outcome.
Newton would have loved preterism because it proves itself, just as a mathematical or chemical formula. It presents God as victorious. The conversations Jesus had with his disciples, with Pilate, and so forth become alive and fulfilled and christ proven as a prophet and God himself; while the other perspectives present Christ as a man making distant prophecies. The rest of the world and living individuals will eventually come to the preterist perspective as time and their lives goes forward, while the other views will likely be 'swept away' and fill lives with delusion if you get my association.

I think the British/American Zionist movement had roots well before the 18th century. I think it's actually an attempted culmination of the work of the Hellenist, chilaists and Pharisees who plotted to and killed Jesus after he raised Lazarus from the dead. Here is an interesting concept that I just came across. Just before passover, and after raising Lazarus, jesus went over and stayed in a city near the 'wilderness'. Wouldn't' that be a term for outside the promised land and thus over towards Pella where the early church fled? It was at that time that the leaders began plotting to kill him saying, if we let this fellow go, all the world will believe in him and we will lose our place (status, positions) and our nation.

Thus, the fear was to lose a feeling of a supreme race and to be lords over that supreme race and other 'cattle". This is exactly what the closing of the mosaic covenant and the 'end times' accomplished.

Thus, if I'm a pharisee, I am going to provide indoctrination and exclusive education that does not allow for or incorporate teaching the closure of this mosaic covenant or allow the favoritism towards the race to "end". I'm going to even say that the 'international' church age, is a parenthesis of Gods working with the favored Jews. I'm going to say that the favor given to the saints of all nations, languages, peoples as told in Daniel 7 will be AFTER the restoration of Judaism and that the power of the kingdom of God has not been established with the saints of the son of man....even though their laws (and our laws) attest to and respect the individuality of the the true believers of that kingdom and it's power. I'm going to interject commentary into a 'study bible' to end all bibles (scofield reference) that will teach several generations with that bible that the definition of Genea does not mean a group of people living in a common lifespan (weather reproductive lifespan or longevity lifespan). I will confuscate information (from early on) to make Revelation, Daniel and the olivet appear to talk about the end of the Kosmos rather than the end of our mosaic nation and race. I will make sure my efforts are well funded by monopolyzing and controlling monetary systems to my benefit and profit....

You may have already done so: but sweetliberty.org has some information about the progress of british/american zionism.
You can also research Albert Pike: 3 world wars; Benjamin Freedman's speech. Rabbi Rabinovich proclamation of working for 3000 yrs towards the goal... etc..... and yet the favor, protection and power of God remains within those who love him and are called according to his purpose. It is somewhat determined by individual obedience to faith, but still effectual.

[CWH]

I believe Sir Isaac Newton was a futurist as according to wiki:

In the 1690s, Newton wrote a number of religious tracts dealing with the literal interpretation of the Bible. Henry More's belief in the Universe and rejection of Cartesian dualism may have influenced Newton's religious ideas. A manuscript he sent to John Locke in which he disputed the existence of the Trinity was never published. Later works – The Chronology of Ancient Kingdoms Amended (1728) and Observations Upon the Prophecies of Daniel and the Apocalypse of St. John (1733) – were published after his death. He also devoted a great deal of time to alchemy.............After his death, Newton's body was discovered to have had massive amounts of mercury in it, probably resulting from his alchemical pursuits. Mercury poisoning could explain Newton's eccentricity in late life.

I see preterism falling once endtimes events start appearing.

Many Blessings.

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

I believe Sir Isaac Newton was a futurist as according to wiki:

I see preterism falling once endtimes events start appearing.

Many Blessings.
Yes, As I've studied al little more, I see the jewish/futurist perspective in his writings. He apparently also saw the beast as being the church of Rome, which is a historicist persuasion. His dates for the time of the end from Daniel were based on events within the Catholic church.

Either he was given Jewish source information, or he did not know or understand the consistent historical/grammatical/literary interpretation.

[Rose]

Two immideate problems with applying Isaiah 66 to 1948 is (as I've been trying to show) the Mosaic covenant nation of Israel ENDED. The race served its purpose of bringing in the "Emmanuel".

Secondly, the rest of the context of Isaiah 66 refers to the time in which sacrifice were continuing and would be an abomination. Thus, this would seem to have to be before the desolation of Jerusalem and the temple. Even the nations that come to see the desolation were identified by one poster in another forum.

When you begin reading some preterist historical information from Tacticus and Josephus, the voice from the city and voice from the temple are eerily identified.
Again, there was no temple in 1948 from which a voice could be heard.

I posted this on another thread, but it seems appropriate to re-post it here.


The similarities and parallels between Isaiah’s 66th chapter and the 66th book of the Bible have been well noted amongst scholars, but it still amazes me every time I think about it. I am taking this opportunity to present some of the most striking examples for those who may not be familiar with this structure.

It is very appropriate for the last Chapter of the book of Isaiah which is on the 1st Spoke of the Bible Wheel to be tied thematically with the last book in the Bible, on the last Spoke of the Bible Wheel, but what makes these connections so stunning is that reading Isaiah 66 is like reading a condensed version of Revelation.


Isa. 66:1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
Rev. 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and [one] sat on the throne.


Isa. 66:3-4 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.


Rev. 18: 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Rev.18: 7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she says in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow….9) And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning


Isa. 66:6 A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompense to his enemies.
Rev. 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in His temple the ark of His testament: andthere were lightning’s, and voices, and thundering, and an earthquake, and great hail.
Rev. 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.


Isa. 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
Rev. 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered….. 5) And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] His throne.


Isa. 66:12 For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees.
Rev.21:24 And thenations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honor into it.
Rev. 22:1 And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.


Isa. 66:15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire….16) For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
Rev.9:9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings [was] as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle….18)By thesethree was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.


Isa. 66:18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.
Rev. 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,


Isa. 66:19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.
Rev.15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels having the seven last plagues;for in them is filled up the wrath of God.


Isa. 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
Rev. 21:And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.


Isa. 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
Rev. 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for [thou] only [art] holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.


Isa. 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
Rev. 19:20-21 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophetthat wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of Him that sat upon the horse, which [sword] proceeded out of his mouth (Jesus Christ): and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Rose

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

I posted this on another thread, but it seems appropriate to re-post it here.


The similarities and parallels between Isaiah’s 66th chapter and the 66th book of the Bible have been well noted amongst scholars, but it still amazes me every time I think about it. I am taking this opportunity to present some of the most striking examples for those who may not be familiar with this structure.

It is very appropriate for the last Chapter of the book of Isaiah which is on the 1st Spoke of the Bible Wheel to be tied thematically with the last book in the Bible, on the last Spoke of the Bible Wheel, but what makes these connections so stunning is that reading Isaiah 66 is like reading a condensed version of Revelation.



Rose

I just spent a little time in Jeremiah 31.


20 Is not Ephraim my dear son,
the child in whom I delight?
Though I often speak against him,
I still remember him.
Therefore my heart yearns for him;
I have great compassion for him,"
declares the LORD.

21 "Set up road signs;
put up guideposts.
Take note of the highway,
the road that you take.
Return, O Virgin Israel,
return to your towns.

22 How long will you wander,
O unfaithful daughter?
The LORD will create[B] a new thing on earth—
a woman will surround a man."


Ephraim represents the people of the covenant of Mercy promised from the God Of Mercy and atoned for by Christ the Remedy-er :) Ephraim was the younger (everlasting covenant of Mercy) served by the older (mosaic covenant).

Written from within the Babylonian captivity, this passage gave hope that God was not through using the people to bring forth the man child surrounded by the 'houses' of Israel/judah". The Virgin, Israel of the mosaic covenant was still 'with child' Ephraim of the everlasting covenant available to all under Adam/Eve.

If the Revelation example IS talking of the birth of Christ; and Isaiah is talking of the birth of the church, they can also be overlapping since the church is also the spiritual BODY of indwelling Christ. The serpent chased christ to go to egypt through Herod, but the serpent would have also attempted to pursue the church into the wilderness if they would not have been besieged by the Romans.

From Barnabus in 75 AD.http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/b/barnabus.html
CHAP. XIII.--CHRISTIANS, AND NOT JEWS, THE HEIRS OF THE COVENANT. .................................................. .....
And in another prophecy Jacob speaks more clearly to his son Joseph, saying, "Behold, the Lord hath not deprived me of thy presence; bring thy sons to me, that I may bless them."(24) And he brought Manasseh and Ephraim, desiring that Manasseh(25) should be blessed, because he was the eider. With this view Joseph led him to the right hand of his father Jacob. But Jacob saw in spirit the type of the people to arise afterward. And what says [the Scripture]? And Jacob changed the direction of his bands, and laid his fight hand upon the head of Ephraim, the second and younger, and blessed him. And Joseph said to Jacob, "Transfer thy right hand to the head of Manasseh,(25) for he is my first-born son."(26) And Jacob said, "I know it, my son, I know it; but the eider shall serve the younger: yet he also shall be blessed."(27) Ye see on whom he laid(28) [his hands], that this people should be first, and heir of the covenant. ............... (Barnabas 13:1)

[The Homemommy]

I believe Sir Isaac Newton was a futurist as according to wiki:

In the 1690s, Newton wrote a number of religious tracts dealing with the literal interpretation of the Bible. Henry More's belief in the Universe and rejection of Cartesian dualism may have influenced Newton's religious ideas. A manuscript he sent to John Locke in which he disputed the existence of the Trinity was never published. Later works – The Chronology of Ancient Kingdoms Amended (1728) and Observations Upon the Prophecies of Daniel and the Apocalypse of St. John (1733) – were published after his death. He also devoted a great deal of time to alchemy.............After his death, Newton's body was discovered to have had massive amounts of mercury in it, probably resulting from his alchemical pursuits. Mercury poisoning could explain Newton's eccentricity in late life.

I see preterism falling once endtimes events start appearing.

Many Blessings.

Hi, a quick follow-up on the jew blindness thing. If every unbeliever who dies dosen't enter heaven, how can God keep the jews blind for 2,000 years? That wouldn't be fair and that dosen't seem like God would do that, especially to those who are supposedly “chosen”...right? As far as end-time events are concerned, how do we know powerful people aren't influencing/making things happen for their own agenda? If preterists are right, there has been a great deal of deception and treachery going on for a long time and by people high up that has trickled down to the church community. Something to think about. :) Carrie

[CWH]

Hi, a quick follow-up on the jew blindness thing. If every unbeliever who dies dosen't enter heaven, how can God keep the jews blind for 2,000 years? That wouldn't be fair and that dosen't seem like God would do that, especially to those who are supposedly 'chosen'...right? As far as end-time events are concerned, how do we know powerful people aren't influencing/making things happen for their own agenda? If preterists are right, there has been a great deal of deception and treachery going on for a long time and by people high up that has trickled down to the church community. Something to think about. :) Carrie

Hi Carrie,

Salvation comes from God, whether Jews or not. Not everyone who called Jesus, "Lord, Lord" will go to heaven except those who did the will of the Father in Heaven.

Deception and Treachery are an over-statement. If there is no intention to lie can I call him a liar? I will call it a mistaken belief. What if the preterists are wrong, can I also call it deception and treachery on their part?

Almost all religions believe in Endtimes: Christianity, Catholicism, Judaism, Islam, Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Bahai'ism, Mayan, Hopi (American Indian), Greek mythology, Norse mythology etc. Are these religions and beliefs being deceived as well? Full Preterism don't believe in endtimes.

PS wiki on Endtimes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End_time

[The Homemommy]

Hi Carrie,

Salvation comes from God, whether Jews or not. Not everyone who called Jesus, "Lord, Lord" will go to heaven except those who did the will of the Father in Heaven.

Deception and Treachery are an over-statement. If there is no intention to lie can I call him a liar? I will call it a mistaken belief. What if the preterists are wrong, can I also call it deception and treachery on their part?

Almost all religions believe in Endtimes: Christianity, Catholicism, Judaism, Islam, Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Bahai'ism, Mayan, Hopi (American Indian), Greek mythology, Norse mythology etc. Are these religions and beliefs being deceived as well? Full Preterism don't believe in endtimes.

PS wiki on Endtimes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End_time

Hi, You didn't answer my question. The jews are either blinded by God or they aren't and choose their position on Jesus by free will. Which is it? Much of pre-dispensitional futurists beliefs teach they are blinded by God but will one day see...I should know...I was brought up on it. As far as treachery and deception goes...come on Cheow...are the preterists beliefs taught mainstream? I hadn't even heard of it until I stumbled across this website. How many preterists books are in mainstream christian bookstores...none. I have been looking and they are only on the internet or maybe second-hand book stores if you are lucky. My point being look at what is bring promoted: John Hagee and pro-Israel, Hal Lindsey and the late great planet earth, Tim LaHaye/ Jerry Jenkins The Left Behind Series, Jack Van Impe...can't you see it? It never ceases to amaze me at my christian friends who talk about how our media is controlled, how the media is just one large corrupt corporation...yet still can't see how they promote a certain type of religion. I'm not saying the preterists are right on everything, but the gap between them and futurists is deep and wide... someone is right and someone is wrong...being right could become extremely important one day. :) Carrie

[Brother Les]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Quote: by Chew
Unfortunately, pure Jew is a dying breed. How many pure Jews are there left in this world? Is the Bible obsolete if there is no more pure Jew left in this world?
If an American who is a pure Jew inter-married an American non-Jew, would I still consider him an American? Yes. Do I still consider his descendants as "half-Jew"? Yes. As many European Jews inter-married in the past, I won't be surprised if you or many Americans (whose ancestry are European) have Jewish blood in their blood.
by the Forgiven
That is according to our standard, but not the Jews. In the Old Testament, a Hebrew was defined based on their Tribe. If they could not prove what Tribe the originated, then they were to be cast out as Gentiles because their blood line had been severed. Their blood line was important so as to retain the genealogy leading to Christ Jesus. Since Christ has been established as King of the world, the genealogy is no longer required.


Paul declared that he was of the tribe of Ben. He has laid out what tribe he is from. He also declares that he is a Jew. This lays out his religious following, he uses the term Judaism, ie. the religion of The Jews.Prosylites could and were added over time.being 'a Jew' became less of an impact upon a straight bloodline and more of a tie with a religious standard. Many of the Northern House of Israel (bloodline) were swept away and became 'as' goem (goy, subhuman) ie. gentiles/the nations. Jesus said that he was sent to no one but the Lost Children of Israel. Religious Judah (Jews) may have tried to keep their bloodline intact, but it is most evident that they were 'lost' religiously. The 'Lost sheep/tribes' of Israel, were lost both religiously ("You do not know what you worship") but they were also lost by who they were of their bloodline.

The cry went out of "first to the Jew and then to the Gentile", as finding The Elect bloodline, for a Covenantal change. One Covenant fataly wounded and dyingand one covenant just born and maturing. The Covenants were for 'israel' (the Prince of God), but as fate would have it, most of 'Israel' were Gentiles commiting harlotry in The Nations and not Jews, who were commitings harlotry in Judea. There is no such thing as a 'pure' Jew, unless it is used as a religious term only.

Brother Les

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Deception and Treachery are an over-statement. If there is no intention to lie can I call him a liar? I will call it a mistaken belief. What if the preterists are wrong, can I also call it deception and treachery on their part?

Almost all religions believe in Endtimes: Christianity, Catholicism, Judaism, Islam, Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Bahai'ism, Mayan, Hopi (American Indian), Greek mythology, Norse mythology etc. Are these religions and beliefs being deceived as well? Full Preterism don't believe in endtimes.

PS wiki on Endtimes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End_time
Most of the end-times deceptions probably are not "treacherous" but they are deceptions none the less. End-timers have been declaring that they were living in the "end times" and that the "end" would come "soon" in their generation for two thousand years!

This is the great mystery of this deception - how is it possible that folks continue to believe something that has been proven wrong ten thousand times?

As for the pagan religions - I would not turn to them for confirmation of my interpretation of the Bible. On the contrary, the end-times obsession of many Christians looks like a product of the flesh that desires something "sensational" just like all the fake religions. This misses the point of the Gospel entirely. We are not supposed to be focusing our hopes on the external world and political turmoil and fears of a "one world dictator" and all that garbage. The Bible tells us:

KJV Colossians 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Richard

[CWH]

Didn't Moses mentioned about Jesus 2,000 years before Jesus appeared? So what's wrong with a 2,000 year prophesy of the end times since Jesus time? Moses even met Jesus during the Transfiguration during Jesus time, 2,000 years later.

Pagan religions or not but most religions believed in the end times except a few. Are they trying to tell us something?..just like numerology has hidden codes waiting to reveal to us the mysteries of God's words. Even partial preterism believed in end times but full preterism don't believe in end times. I wonder why?

As for Carrie, why must there be absolute right and absolute wrong? As I have said, preterism may be right in some ways, futurism may be right in some ways; Nobody is absolutely right! AD 70 to my own personal belief is nothing more significant than the destruction of Jerusalem.

Many Blessings to all.

[Rose]

Didn't Moses mentioned about Jesus 2,000 years before Jesus appeared? So what's wrong with a 2,000 year prophesy of the end times since Jesus time? Moses even met Jesus during the Transfiguration during Jesus time, 2,000 years later.

Pagan religions or not but most religions believed in the end times except a few. Are they trying to tell us something?..just like numerology has hidden codes waiting to reveal to us the mysteries of God's words. Even partial preterism believed in end times but full preterism don't believe in end times. I wonder why?

As for Carrie, why must there be absolute right and absolute wrong? As I have said, preterism may be right in some ways, futurism may be right in some ways; Nobody is absolutely right! AD 70 to my own personal belief is nothing more significant than the destruction of Jerusalem.

Many Blessings to all.

Hi Cheow,

In your opinion, what was significant about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD?

God Bless

Rose

[CWH]

It's nothing but the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. Show me a verse in the Bible that states AD 70 and I will believe, otherwise it's just my own personal opinion. You are entitled to your own preterist's opinion.

Many Blessings.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Didn't Moses mentioned about Jesus 2,000 years before Jesus appeared? So what's wrong with a 2,000 year prophesy of the end times since Jesus time? Moses even met Jesus during the Transfiguration during Jesus time, 2,000 years later.

Hey there brother Cheow! :yo:

I've never said that "a 2,000 year prophesy of the end times" would be wrong - my point is that there is no 2000 year prophecy of a future repetition of the destruction of Jerusalem that happened in the first century. If there were such a prophecy, I would have no problem with it!



Pagan religions or not but most religions believed in the end times except a few. Are they trying to tell us something?..just like numerology has hidden codes waiting to reveal to us the mysteries of God's words. Even partial preterism believed in end times but full preterism don't believe in end times. I wonder why?

Truth is not determined by the opinions of the majority. "Most religions" believe a lot of things that are true, and a lot of things that are false.

I think you missed my point. The reason "most religions" believe in an "end times" is the same reason that every generation has folks who believe that they are living in the "end times." Using Ecclesiastes 1:4 as a model, we could say:

"One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the belief that we are living in the endtimes abideth for ever."

Many blessings,

Richard

[Richard Amiel McGough]

It's nothing but the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. Show me a verse in the Bible that states AD 70 and I will believe, otherwise it's just my own personal opinion. You are entitled to your own preterist's opinion.

Many Blessings.
Hey Cheow,

I assume you are joking since asking for a calendar date from the a text that was written before that calendar was invented is obviously absurd. :hysterical:

The term "70 AD" is irrelevant to the discussion. It is just a short-hand reference to the fulfillment of the prophecies against apostate Jerusalem that we know from history to have been fulfilled in 70 AD. The point is not if the date is stated in the Bible. The point is that the Bible gives a prophecy and that we know the prophecy was fulfilled.

Now consider these facts:

1) The Bible prophesied the destruction of first century Jerusalem.
2) The prophecy was fulfilled.
3) The Bible gives no other prophecy of a yet future destruction of Jerusalem.

Therefore, it appears that the "endtimes" happened in the first century and futurism has no foundation in the Bible. If you can show me an integrated prophetic complex that demands a future fulfillment, I would happily change my opinion.

All the best,

Richard

[Rose]

It's nothing but the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. Show me a verse in the Bible that states AD 70 and I will believe, otherwise it's just my own personal opinion. You are entitled to your own preterist's opinion.

Many Blessings.

Hey Cheow,

Of course the Bible doesn't say 70AD! But Jesus did prophesy that every last stone of the Temple would come down....and it did! Prophecy fulfilled! End of story.

Nowhere does it say there will be a second fulfillment of that prophecy, so to assume that would be reading ones own interpretation into the text. The question I asked you was if you see any significance at all in the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem in the 1st century? Not if the term 70AD was found in the Bible.

God Bless

Rose

[The Homemommy]

Most of the end-times deceptions probably are not "treacherous" but they are deceptions none the less. End-timers have been declaring that they were living in the "end times" and that the "end" would come "soon" in their generation for two thousand years!

This is the great mystery of this deception - how is it possible that folks continue to believe something that has been proven wrong ten thousand times?

As for the pagan religions - I would not turn to them for confirmation of my interpretation of the Bible. On the contrary, the end-times obsession of many Christians looks like a product of the flesh that desires something "sensational" just like all the fake religions. This misses the point of the Gospel entirely. We are not supposed to be focusing our hopes on the external world and political turmoil and fears of a "one world dictator" and all that garbage. The Bible tells us:

KJV Colossians 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Richard

Hi, Sorry to use such strong words as treachery but I don't take lightly the serious deceptions put forth by ministers that use slick talk and ear tickling as they convince people to send money. As far as I'm concerned, this is like the money changers in the temple that Jesus denounced. I find no innocence in these people. They are supposed to be bible scholars, who study for years in seminaries, who have doctorate degrees by their names. Sorry this just gets me fired up!!!! Thanks for your calming presence.
Question: do you at all believe in people in this world who work deliberately to stop the work of christians and/or corrupt the message of Christ? :) Carrie

[The Homemommy]

Didn't Moses mentioned about Jesus 2,000 years before Jesus appeared? So what's wrong with a 2,000 year prophesy of the end times since Jesus time? Moses even met Jesus during the Transfiguration during Jesus time, 2,000 years later.

Pagan religions or not but most religions believed in the end times except a few. Are they trying to tell us something?..just like numerology has hidden codes waiting to reveal to us the mysteries of God's words. Even partial preterism believed in end times but full preterism don't believe in end times. I wonder why?

As for Carrie, why must there be absolute right and absolute wrong? As I have said, preterism may be right in some ways, futurism may be right in some ways; Nobody is absolutely right! AD 70 to my own personal belief is nothing more significant than the destruction of Jerusalem.

Many Blessings to all.

Cheow, When it comes down to the message of Christ, yes, it matters if we get it right. You can't ignore the HUGE differences between futurists and preterists especially about Israel. If the preterists are right about Israel, think of how it would change the world? Foreign policy, wars, troops dying oversees, billions of taxpayer money...etc? I would say it matters a great deal. You curiously skipped over the jew blindness answer again. If they aren't blind, then you need to explain the purpose of the futurists argument how one day the jews will come to see, it is central in the futurists view. Or is that one of the things we don't have to be “right” on? I'm not trying to be snippy but you seem to not be able to answer questions about your views. Love ya, bro. Carrie :)

[CWH]

In my own opinion, date setting should be banned whether is it AD 70 or year 2012 or what ever date if no date is stated in the Bible. I understand that calendar was not invented yet in Jesus time but date such as "in the reign of king Herod" etc. would be an acceptable date in lieu.

Jerusalem was attacked not only during Roman's time but also when the Muslim occuopied Jerusallem in the 7th century. Jerusalem was also attacked in the six day war and Yom Kippur war. Can anyone foresee that Jerusalem will not be attacked again in the future? Jerusalem was once desolated as prophesied, a haunt for jackals but look at it now....a thriving city full of activities. Was the prophesy of desolated Jerusalem fulfilled then?

If I were to relate a story which is quite similar, am I talking about WW1 or WW2?:
There was once a Great War in which millions of people were killed. The war involved Germany, Britain and later US. In the end the US and Britian were victorious and Germany was defeated.

Same goes with the account of Matthew 24, it may not neccessary talked about the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. I will only believe that Matthew 24 talked about the destruction of Jerusalem if I see the words Titus, Roman armies, 1st century etc., otherwise, it is just speculation.

As for Carrie, I did not answer your question is because it is a difficult question, which is why I put in another post regarding Who chose Who (Thread: Hell is not eternal) hoping that some brilliant minds would follow up on it. As Rose said, we do not really know what was the master plan of God. Perhaps, God knew beforehand that the Jews will reject him and that rejection will be manifested into acceptance through the mercy of God one day. The Jews will have to suffer until that rejection becomes acceptance and then only will they realized of their folly and the master plan of God will then be fulfilled. May I ask you a question , "Who chose the Jews or did the Jews chose God?". If God chose the Jews, why the Jews? why not another race such as the Chinese or Africans or Americans or Indians etc.?

Many Blessings to you.

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

Didn't Moses mentioned about Jesus 2,000 years before Jesus appeared? So what's wrong with a 2,000 year prophesy of the end times since Jesus time? Moses even met Jesus during the Transfiguration during Jesus time, 2,000 years later.
Many Blessings to all.

I think that was part of the point. Moses mentioned Jesus as a prophet whom if not listened to would suffer consequences of being cut off. Peter said these same things with a warning that these things were coming upon those days.

And it shall come to pass, [that] every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. (That lifespan) Ye (in 30 AD) are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

That prophet came to usher in the covenant of mercy and to bring 'the end' and the 'latter end' on those who loved their place of honor and their 'nation' rather than truth and Mercy. This is what is described in Duet 32, Daniels 'end' and 'latter end' and also Jesus' olivet discourse. It was the 'latter end' (or second and final desolation of the temple) of the need of the genetic people and the closure of the mosaic covenant.

Thus, what the preterist are saying is that a significant percentage of people have been taught that 'the end' as described in Dan, the Olivet, Revelation was the 'end' of the world when it was the end of the mosaic covenant world; but which has it's roots in the 'end' and 'latter end' of the mosaic covenant and of God's special testimony to the world through that people. Some of us are even implying that the evidence concerning revelations date of writing has been altered or skewed by perhaps hellenists, chilaists or Judaism's leaders to inject false information (venom) into bible colleges, seminaries and churches in order to allow for an almost worshiplike support of the continuation of talmudic judaism.

It would be very much on par for them to 'kill' truth about their own 'end' and latter end'. Here is what they were afraid of after Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead.
45Therefore many of the Jews who had come to visit Mary, and had seen what Jesus did, put their faith in him. 46But some of them went to the Pharisees and told them what Jesus had done. 47Then the chief priests and the Pharisees called a meeting of the Sanhedrin.

"What are we accomplishing?" they asked. "Here is this man performing many miraculous signs. 48If we let him go on like this, everyone will believe in him, and then the Romans will come and take away both our place[c] and our nation."


Therefore the futurists, by the bible teachers denial that these passages refer to the end of the Mosaic covenant, their 'place' and their 'nation', they make them falsely apply to some future time and are in alignment with the same tribe that killed Jesus and shut up the truth his kingdom.
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

There is nothing really significant about the number 70, but the event of the destruction of Jerusalem was very significant to the early church. So much so that apparently some dated their calenders to that date (probably 70 AD) or 135 AD.


Israeli authorities say they have recovered a papyrus document which appears to be nearly 2,000 years old.

The document measures 15cm by 15cm (6in by 6in), and contains 15 lines of ancient Hebrew script.

It appears to be a legal instruction, transferring a widow's property to her late husband's brother.

It was seized from two Palestinian men in a sting operation at a Jerusalem hotel, police said. The two could face several years in jail.

The Israel Antiquities Authority (IAA) said on Wednesday that the scroll was an "exceptional archeological document, of the like but a few exist," reported Israeli newspaper Haaretz.

It said similar scrolls had been sold worldwide for sums as high as $5-10m (£3.3-6.6m).

Precise dates

According to the Israel Antiquities Authority (IAA), the document is written in a style of ancient Hebrew primarily associated with the Dead Sea Scrolls.

These are scriptures and apocalyptic treatises thought to have been collected by an ascetic Jewish community which lived in the desert near the Dead Sea, and preserved by the dry climate.

But it remains unclear exactly where this document was obtained, said police and archaeologists.

Unusually, the first line of the document indicates a precise date, the IAA said - "Year 4 [AD] to the destruction of Israel", which could indicate either AD74, four years after Jerusalem's Second Temple was destroyed, or AD139, four years after the date of a Jewish revolt violently put down by Rome.

The document appears to concern the transfer of property belonging to a widow called Miriam.

State property

The IAA's Amir Ganor cautioned that the document would have to undergo laboratory analysis to authenticate it.

Photographers take pictures of a suspected 2,000-year-old papyrus document found by Israeli authorities in Jerusalem
Under Israeli law, all archaeological artefacts are state property

But he expressed excitement about the discovery, suggesting that the "very important" document could "shed light on how the people of the period managed their affairs and supplement our knowledge about their way of life".

The two suspects were reportedly apprehended while trying to sell the document, by police and Israeli intelligence officers who had planned the operation for weeks.

According to Israeli antiquities law all archaeological artefacts are state property.

The arrested men could be charged with illegally possessing and trafficking the artefacts, and could face years in jail if convicted.

[Rose]

In my own opinion, date setting should be banned whether is it AD 70 or year 2012 or what ever date if no date is stated in the Bible. I understand that calendar was not invented yet in Jesus time but date such as "in the reign of king Herod" etc. would be an acceptable date in lieu.

Jerusalem was attacked not only during Roman's time but also when the Muslim occuopied Jerusallem in the 7th century. Jerusalem was also attacked in the six day war and Yom Kippur war. Can anyone foresee that Jerusalem will not be attacked again in the future? Jerusalem was once desolated as prophesied, a haunt for jackals but look at it now....a thriving city full of activities. Was the prophesy of desolated Jerusalem fulfilled then?

If I were to relate a story which is quite similar, am I talking about WW1 or WW2?:
There was once a Great War in which millions of people were killed. The war involved Germany, Britain and later US. In the end the US and Britian were victorious and Germany was defeated.

Same goes with the account of Matthew 24, it may not neccessary talked about the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. I will only believe that Matthew 24 talked about the destruction of Jerusalem if I see the words Titus, Roman armies, 1st century etc., otherwise, it is just speculation.

As for Carrie, I did not answer your question is because it is a difficult question, which is why I put in another post regarding Who chose Who (Thread: Hell is not eternal) hoping that some brilliant minds would follow up on it. As Rose said, we do not really know what was the master plan of God. Perhaps, God knew beforehand that the Jews will reject him and that rejection will be manifested into acceptance through the mercy of God one day. The Jews will have to suffer until that rejection becomes acceptance and then only will they realized of their folly and the master plan of God will then be fulfilled. May I ask you a question , "Who chose the Jews or did the Jews chose God?". If God chose the Jews, why the Jews? why not another race such as the Chinese or Africans or Americans or Indians etc.?

Many Blessings to you.


Sorry Cheow, but your statement about Jerusalem being attacked doesn't hold up. The main point of Jesus prophecy in Matt. 24, and the other Gospels was not about Jerusalem being attacked, but about the stones of the Temple coming down....that is to say, complete desolation! Yes, cities can be rebuilt and destroyed again, but the Temple has not been rebuilt, and it was destroyed after Jesus said it would be.

It matters not what date you put on that destruction, because we know from history and the ruins of the Temple's foundation that it was destroyed. We don't need the Bible to specifically mention: Roman armies, 1st century, or Titus, because like I said the ruins of the Temples foundation still remain as a sign of what once stood....and that's not speculation!

God Bless

Rose

[basilfo]

..... how can God keep the jews blind for 2,000 years? That wouldn't be fair and that dosen't seem like God would do that, especially to those who are supposedly 'chosen'...right?

Hi Carrie,

God "chose" the nation of Israel as the vessel through which he would bring His prophets and of course His Son, the Messiah. Much Scripture labels that nation as "chosen by God" prior to the new covenant.

But Peter (and the thrust of the entire NT) teaches that believers in Christ are "elect" or "chosen".

1 Peter 2:1 Peter 2:1 Therefore, laying aside all malice, all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and all evil speaking, 2 as newborn babes, desire the pure milk of the word, that you may grow thereby, 3 if indeed you have tasted that the Lord [is] gracious. 4 Coming to Him [as to] a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God [and] precious, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture, "Behold, I lay in Zion A chief cornerstone, elect, precious, And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame." 7 Therefore, to you who believe, [He is] precious; but to those who are disobedient, "The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone," 8 and "A stone of stumbling And a rock of offense." They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed. 9 But you [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once [were] not a people but [are] now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.

What do you think Peter meant by "are now the people of God"? What is the intent of that phrase if not that Christians, not Christ rejecting ethnic Jews, are "the people of God"?

Clearly, believers in Christ are "a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people". How could God maintain 2 chosen people? Escpecially, if one was defined as people who reject Christ. There is no Scripture describing any more than 2 categories of people after Christ: believers (grafted into the olive tree) and non-believers (cut off) - Romans 11.

The insistence of ethnic Jews being God's chosen people cannot be found in the teaching of Christ or the apostles. If you check it out, you will find the exact opposite.

I believe it is a necessity of a flawed eschatology which requires that Jews, the nation of Israel, a 'temple of God', etc. be in existence during the "last days" and "end of the age" - which some say are still in our future.



As far as end-time events are concerned, how do we know powerful people aren't influencing/making things happen for their own agenda? If preterists are right, there has been a great deal of deception and treachery going on for a long time and by people high up that has trickled down to the church community. Something to think about. :) Carrie

Some deception no doubt. I would chaulk more of it up to flawed biblical hermeneutics.

Peace to you,
Dave

[The Homemommy]

In my own opinion, date setting should be banned whether is it AD 70 or year 2012 or what ever date if no date is stated in the Bible. I understand that calendar was not invented yet in Jesus time but date such as "in the reign of king Herod" etc. would be an acceptable date in lieu.

Jerusalem was attacked not only during Roman's time but also when the Muslim occuopied Jerusallem in the 7th century. Jerusalem was also attacked in the six day war and Yom Kippur war. Can anyone foresee that Jerusalem will not be attacked again in the future? Jerusalem was once desolated as prophesied, a haunt for jackals but look at it now....a thriving city full of activities. Was the prophesy of desolated Jerusalem fulfilled then?

If I were to relate a story which is quite similar, am I talking about WW1 or WW2?:
There was once a Great War in which millions of people were killed. The war involved Germany, Britain and later US. In the end the US and Britian were victorious and Germany was defeated.

Same goes with the account of Matthew 24, it may not neccessary talked about the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. I will only believe that Matthew 24 talked about the destruction of Jerusalem if I see the words Titus, Roman armies, 1st century etc., otherwise, it is just speculation.

As for Carrie, I did not answer your question is because it is a difficult question, which is why I put in another post regarding Who chose Who (Thread: Hell is not eternal) hoping that some brilliant minds would follow up on it. As Rose said, we do not really know what was the master plan of God. Perhaps, God knew beforehand that the Jews will reject him and that rejection will be manifested into acceptance through the mercy of God one day. The Jews will have to suffer until that rejection becomes acceptance and then only will they realized of their folly and the master plan of God will then be fulfilled. Can you explain how the jews will come to see their folly and how that completes God's plan? May I ask you a question , "Who chose the Jews or did the Jews chose God?". If God chose the Jews, why the Jews? why not another race such as the Chinese or Africans or Americans or Indians etc.?
I would say that God chose the Jews. Why no one else? Not sure. But I agree that they fulfilled their purpose through the lineage of Jesus.
Many Blessings to you.

Cheow, I notice you talk alot about WWII. Have you ever really studied the motives behind the war and who financed it? Hint: start with the Bush family dynasty, namely Prescott Bush, George W. Bushs' grandfather. How he and members of very old family dynasties, financed the Nazi's. It's fascinating and none of it is in our govt-sponsored history books. These “power” families still influence and contibute financially wars of today. Ever heard of the military industrial complex? It's BIG money. People are hugely profiting from millions dying across the world. It's sickening. Anyway, if you have free time, look it up. It may change your outlook about what you think you know about the world. Can you explain how the jews will one day see their “folly” and come to acceptance and how this completes God's master plan? As for your question: I think that God picked them. But it dosen't really matter to me why. I'm glad he did, cause through them, God gave us Jesus. And through him, God picks us all. :) Carrie

[CWH]

Cheow, I notice you talk alot about WWII. Have you ever really studied the motives behind the war and who financed it? Hint: start with the Bush family dynasty, namely Prescott Bush, George W. Bushs' grandfather. How he and members of very old family dynasties, financed the Nazi's. It's fascinating and none of it is in our govt-sponsored history books. These 'power' families still influence and contibute financially wars of today. Ever heard of the military industrial complex? It's BIG money. People are hugely profiting from millions dying across the world. It's sickening. Anyway, if you have free time, look it up. It may change your outlook about what you think you know about the world. Can you explain how the jews will one day see their 'folly' and come to acceptance and how this completes God's master plan? As for your question: I think that God picked them. But it dosen't really matter to me why. I'm glad he did, cause through them, God gave us Jesus. And through him, God picks us all. :) Carrie

Hi Carrie, thanks for the info, I will look further into it. Yes, WW2 was the greatest event of the 20th century and it seems to be related to Matthew 24, "you will hear wars and rumours of wars...earthquakes and plagues (i.e. natural disasters) in many places but the end is yet to come". If another world war were to come, obviously, "No one will survive"...but God has shortened those days.

I believe the Jews will realized of their folly and regained their senses when Jesus came back again in the second coming. They will then realized that the Messiah that they are waiting for is actually Jesus. Perhaps, there may be a miraculously change in their realization and accept Jesus as their Messiah but it won't be something that is forced down their throat..."Now Believe or Die!" sort of thing. It will be a free-will acceptance. The master plan will be completed when all people Jews or Gentiles will accept God and God will lived with us in the new heaven and a new earth.

Many Blessings.

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

The insistence of ethnic Jews being God's chosen people cannot be found in the teaching of Christ or the apostles. If you check it out, you will find the exact opposite.
Agreed: For example: Don't think that being children of Abraham will get you any favor.. God can make these stones into children of Abraham.

So what is all the focus on the genealogy??


I believe it is a necessity of a flawed eschatology which requires that Jews, the nation of Israel, a 'temple of God', etc. be in existence during the "last days" and "end of the age" - which some say are still in our future.

Some deception no doubt. I would chalk more of it up to flawed biblical hermeneutics.


Perhaps flawed hermeneutics; but also the injection of intentionally false teaching and intentionally disregarding the end of the mosaic covenant, it's people and nation.

After Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead; the Pharisees sought to kill Jesus, saying that if we let this fellow go, all will believe in him and the Romans will come and take our place and our nation. (Did they know the prophecies or was it just coincidence). It is the same fear along with having the spirit of men and beast (not God) which denies that Deut 32, the 'end' prophecies of Daniel and the Olivet discourse along with most parts of Revelation all refer to the end times of the then and now obsolete mosaic covenant.

There is seldom any discussion about Jesus being the prophet mentioned in deut 18 whom when he would come; it would signify the end of the national people.


Deut 5:24,25. Read in context for best effect.
Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we hear the voice of the LORD our God any more, then we shall die. (this is not talking of physical death, but a loss of spiritual LIFE, hope, of abundance, vibrance, etc)

Deut Chapter 18:
15. The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; 16According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
17And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Jesus claimed to be that prophet in John 6 whom Moses spoke about and who would speak 'new' things; new wine, new covenant (different from the Mosaic) etc.

Perhaps they recognized that when the Prophet came; it signified the end of their 'place' and nation. Perhaps they believed that if they killed him, they would prolong the mosaic covenant. Perhaps like old babylon and Nimrod the Pharisees went about trying to supply their own Messiah, the Prophet; the talmud.

But dying and releasing the Holy Spirit was part of His plan also.
If they wished to continue (or re-vamp) their place and nation, they needed to deny the prophecies of the end and latter end of the mosaic covenant and that "that" the Prophet had come, This denial of the end of the mosaic covenant; is what both Judaism and the futurist perspectives of these passages accomplishes as well as many aspects of 'churchianity'.


In Scofields notes on Matthew chapter 24; he writes that he is going to define the word Genea from Strongs. But then he uses Strongs definition for the word Genos in the commentary which would seem to absolutely be intentional. They are completely different words with completely different meanings. Genea means lifespan and Genos means life-kind. This is about as open and direct a "LIE" as it seems to get. It's hard to imagine that this was not intentional.

The other concept which I believe the futurist/talmudists intentionally confuse is claiming that they are using the Historical/grammatical/literal approach that the reformers used. But the truth is that when the reformers coined the phrase; it "LITERAL" meant LITERARY thus allowing poetry to be symbolic and allegorical and allowing for Hebrew Paralellism and other forms and figures of speech.

When the dispy's and futurists talk of "literal" interpretation, they talk of word for word meanings. The sun, moon and stars not giving their light must mean just that; even though it was a poetic figure of speech used of the Medes conquest of Babylon about 500 yrs earlier.

There is another difference that I think is noticeable. The practice of seeking to consider conversational and historical context to the original readers and how they would have understood the words from their religious/political world view at their time.

This is supposedly emphasized by both groups, but I seem to see objective first century inductive study and interpretation practiced by the fulfilled group more than the futurists group. The second group seems to read almost the whole bible (especially from Noah or Abraham forward) without regard for the original audience and as if it were written exclusively to people in our day and age. This also would be the fruit of denial or ignorance that the Mosaic covenant was broken, ended and made obsolete and that this was designed and prophesied within the giving of the covenant itself.

[gregoryfl]

Very good points, Endtimes...and very well presented.

One other reason that the idea of fulfilled prophecy is rejected, in particular the idea that we are living in the time of Revelation 21 and 22, is because (and this is speaking from my own experience from my former beliefs) I was looking for "real and actual" change that I could see with my own eyes. I did not see lions laying down with lambs, I still see tears, sorrow and pain. Everything appears to be just as it always has been.

However, now that I think about this from my understanding now, I realize that that is the very same reasoning that those who claim to be Jews do not believe the Messiah came; and why they are still looking for him to come. They say there is no change, they still see sin. They still see death. They do not see him ruling in Jerusalem. They still see other nations not submitted to them. These are all things that they expect to happen when Messiah comes.

And yet we know that he did, although not in the way they expected. Why should we think it would be any different with his coming again?

Ron

[The Homemommy]

Agreed: For example: Don't think that being children of Abraham will get you any favor.. God can make these stones into children of Abraham.

So what is all the focus on the genealogy??



Perhaps flawed hermeneutics; but also the injection of intentionally false teaching.

After Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead; the Pharisees sought to kill Jesus, saying that if we let this fellow go, all will believe in him and the Romans will come and take our place and our nation. (Did they know the prophecies or was it just coincidence). It is the same fear and spirit of men and beast which denies that Deut 32, the 'end' prophecies of Daniel and the Olivet discourse along with most parts of Revelation all refer to the end times of the then and now obsolete mosaic covenant.

There is seldom any discussion about Jesus being the prophet mentioned in deut 18 whom when he would come; it would signify the end of the national people.



Perhaps they recognized that when the Prophet came; it signified the end of their 'place' and nation. Perhaps they believed that if they killed him, they would prolong the mosaic covenant. But dying and releasing the Holy Spirit was part of His plan also. If they wished to continue (or re-vamp) their place and nation, they would have to deny that the Prophet and the effects of his teaching and words had come, and deny the prophecies of the end and latter end of the nation and the mosaic covenant. This denial of the end of the mosaic covenant; is what both Judaism and the futurist perspectives of these passages accomplishes.

In Scofields notes on Matthew chapter 24; he writes that he is going to define the word Genea from Strongs. But then he uses Strongs definition for the word Genos in the commentary which would seem to absolutely be intentional. They are completely different words with completely different meanings. Genea means lifespan and Genos means life-kind. This is about as open and direct a "LIE" as it seems to get.

The other concept which I believe the futurist/talmudists intentionally confuse is claiming that they are using the Historical/grammatical/literal approach that the reformers used. But the truth is that when the reformers coined the phrase; it "LITERAL" meant LITERARY thus allowing poetry to be symbolic and allegorical and allowing for Hebrew Paralellism and other forms and figures of speech.

When the dispy's and futurists talk of "literal" interpretation, they talk of word for word meanings. The sun, moon and stars not giving their light must mean just that; even though it was a poetic figure of speech used of the Medes conquest of Babylon about 500 yrs earlier.

There is another difference that I think is noticable. The practice of conversational context and trying to understand what was meant and said to the original readers or in the original conversations and how they would have understood the words from their religious/political world view at their time.

This is supposedly emphasized by both groups, but I seem to see objective first century inductive study and interpretation practiced by the fulfilled group more than the futurists group. The second group seems to neglect first century historical context especially as it relates the the close of the mosaic covenant and/or the allusions to the destruction of the temple/city.

Hey, endtimes. You and I think alike. I really enjoy your posts, I always learn something new. As we are both on the same page regarding the intentional hijacking of important parts of the bible by certain groups, what do you think their purpose is? They obviously have worked long and hard to inject their false doctrines into the world. Why? Are they planning to build on the foundation they have laid? I realize anything discussed is speculation but I'm interested in what you think. If you want, send me a private message. :) Carrie

[The Homemommy]

Very good points, Endtimes...and very well presented.

One other reason that the idea of fulfilled prophecy is rejected, in particular the idea that we are living in the time of Revelation 21 and 22, is because (and this is speaking from my own experience from my former beliefs) I was looking for "real and actual" change that I could see with my own eyes. I did not see lions laying down with lambs, I still see tears, sorrow and pain. Everything appears to be just as it always has been.

However, now that I think about this from my understanding now, I realize that that is the very same reasoning that those who claim to be Jews do not believe the Messiah came; and why they are still looking for him to come. They say there is no change, they still see sin. They still see death. They do not see him ruling in Jerusalem. They still see other nations not submitted to them. These are all things that they expect to happen when Messiah comes.

And yet we know that he did, although not in the way they expected. Why should we think it would be any different with his coming again?

Ron

Hey Ron, I like the way you said that. We humans are so impatient, aren't we? We want everything NOW! My three year old is more patient than most adults I know. :) I just wanted to say that I liked your post. Carrie

[basilfo]

One other reason that the idea of fulfilled prophecy is rejected, in particular the idea that we are living in the time of Revelation 21 and 22, is because (and this is speaking from my own experience from my former beliefs) I was looking for "real and actual" change that I could see with my own eyes. I did not see lions laying down with lambs, ........Ron

Hi Ron,
Excellent point. Just a quick side note that came to mind when you referred to the lion and the lamb. It is from Isaiah 11 and I find it impossible to read the first 15 verses of that chapter and see anything but the arrival of the Messiah - His first advent. Many seem to pull verses 6-9 completely out of context and make it about His second coming. But the first 5 and then 10 to the end IMO clearly point to the first arrival of Messiah. It really is one continuous text prophesying one advent of Christ - the first. No break in the text from 1-15.

So not only is the literal interp of lions laying with lambs flawed (not to mention snakes and toddlers!), but the futurist's timing has no basis in the text.

Check it out.

Peace to you,
Dave

[gregoryfl]

Interesting find there Dave. Thanks for that. :)

Ron

[CWH]

Just wondering how you all guys could read these symbolically.

Isaiah 11:
6 The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling [a] together;
and a little child will lead them.

7 The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.

8 The infant will play near the hole of the cobra,
and the young child put his hand into the viper's nest.

Who are the wolf, lamb, leopard, goat, calf, lion, yearling, ox, a little child, infant, cow, bear, cobra, vipers? I understand they may represent good and evil people, but why the repetitions and the different animals represented?

Anyone care to answer? I do not want a general answer.

Many Blessings to all

[TheForgiven]

Just wondering how you all guys could read these symbolically.

Isaiah 11:
6 The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling [a] together;
and a little child will lead them.

7 The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.

8 The infant will play near the hole of the cobra,
and the young child put his hand into the viper's nest.

The animals are used to describe the characteristics of people. God never intended prophesy to include the literal use or harmony of animals. Rather, God used animals to describe the behaviors of mankind. Foxes are always on the hunt for prey. The lamb is an innocent child-like human who is always placed in danger of the hunter. The bear is a powerful animal that rarely falls victim to prey, and the ox is an animal used to farm the field. In all this, the prophesy has to do with races of all nations living amongst themselves despite their differences. The most common animals used in prophesy are the lamb, which was used as a sacrifice. The bull which is used to describe rebellion done in ignorance (sinning by mistake). And the Lion used to describe authority as a king. Jesus is described as the Lion, from the Tribe of Judah.

I apologize for not posting these past few days. Been very busy at work, but Joe is back. :congrats: Hope you guys didn't think I disappeared on you all.

Joe

[basilfo]

Hi Cheow,
As I learn more about Scripture, it seems that many passages do not require complex, intricate explanations. An example is Jesus giving the simple illustration of summer following close after trees bud in the Olivet discourse. It has nothing to do with nations being revived or reborn or the fig tree representing Israel. (That's usually the olive tree anyway.) Just that the parousia would follow closely after the signs he just explained to the disciples had occured. It's a simple time stamp.

And yes, Cheow, they all happened in the 1st century as many threads here have explained.

Same as with the animals given in Isaiah 11. It's Hebrew poetry. Various illustrations of perfect harmony and peace that surpasses all understanding. None of those animal relationships make any sense to us, but in Christ, in His perfect Kingdom, perfect harmony is achieved. There is nothing lacking.

Can you honestly read Isaiah 11:1-5 and understand the text to point to the 2nd coming? If not, how can one jump there in 6-9, AND then jump back to the first advent in verse 10 - with no text to support such a jump?

"In that day" is only looking at one period of time - the period of the original subject of the chapter which is the 1st advent.


My 2 cents.

Peace to you all,
Dave

[CWH]

Hi dave,

That's your preterist's views which have no place in my preterist-futurist's views. No where in Isaiah 11 is there stated 1st century let's not date set with no substantial proof; date setting should be banned:


Dave said:
And yes, Cheow, they all happened in the 1st century as many threads here have explained.

The animals portray in Isaiah 11 to me suggests that once arch enemies will live harmoniously together in the kingdom of God with Jesus, "the little child" leading them.


Dave said:
Can you honestly read Isaiah 11:1-5 and understand the text to point to the 2nd coming?:

But here is a hint of the second coming of Christ in Isaiah 11:

1 A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse;
from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.
2 The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him—
the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding,
the Spirit of counsel and of power,
the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD -

3 and he will delight in the fear of the LORD.
He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes,
or decide by what he hears with his ears;

4 but with righteousness he will judge the needy,
with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth.
He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth;
with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked.

5 Righteousness will be his belt
and faithfulness the sash around his waist.

6 The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling [a] together;
and a little child will lead them.

7 The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.

8 The infant will play near the hole of the cobra,
and the young child put his hand into the viper's nest.

9 They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,
for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD
as the waters cover the sea.

10 In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his place of rest will be glorious. 11 In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the remnant that is left of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, [b] from Cush, [c] from Elam, from Babylonia, [d] from Hamath and from the islands of the sea.

12 He will raise a banner for the nations
and gather the exiles of Israel;
he will assemble the scattered people of Judah
from the four quarters of the earth.

Many Blessings to you.

[joel]

To Cheow Wee Hock:

That seems very clear........you would really have to wrestle with the words to make them mean that it has already happened.

Thanks, Joel

[basilfo]

Hi dave,

No where in Isaiah 11 is there stated 1st century

Hi Cheow,
Nor is it stated that it is in the 21st, 22nd or any other time. Now that that's out of the way.....




let's not date set with no substantial proof; date setting should be banned:

Determining when a passage will be or was fulfilled is not date setting. Saying Jesus will return in 1988 or 2007 - a generation after the "rebirth" of Israel -or "any minute now" is date setting.



The animals portray in Isaiah 11 to me suggests that once arch enemies will live harmoniously together in the kingdom of God with Jesus, "the little child" leading them.

Jesus is never called "the little child" outside of the story of His birth. Certainly never in His leadership role. The time of His life as a child is not the context at all here. Isaiah is not saying Christ as a child is playing with a snake. Again, IMO, you are reading too much into the illustration of the child and the cobra playing together in Isaiah 11.



But here is a hint of the second coming of Christ in Isaiah 11:

Let's break it down to see if that is so. (Hope you don't mind me replacing your translation with the NKJV - didn't recognize yours.)

Isaiah 11:1 There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse, And a Branch shall grow out of his roots.

Paul applies this prophesy to the Gentiles receiving the Gospel in the 1st century:

Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises [made] to the fathers, 9 and that the Gentiles might glorify God for [His] mercy, as it is written: "For this reason I will confess to You among the Gentiles, And sing to Your name." 10 And again he says: "Rejoice, O Gentiles, with His people!" 11 And again: "Praise the LORD, all you Gentiles! Laud Him, all you peoples!" 12 And again, Isaiah says: "There shall be a root of Jesse; And He who shall rise to reign over the Gentiles, In Him the Gentiles shall hope."

Surely, you don't think what Paul and Isaiah speak of here has not happened yet??

2 The Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon Him, The Spirit of wisdom and understanding, The Spirit of counsel and might, The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD.

All of these attributes applied in the first century to Christ.


3 His delight [is] in the fear of the LORD, And He shall not judge by the sight of His eyes, Nor decide by the hearing of His ears; 4 But with righteousness He shall judge the poor, And decide with equity for the meek of the earth;

Jesus was fully righteous when He walked the earth - and taught so. His many statements elevating the poor over the rich, the lesser over the greater, the servant over the master... indicate these attributes are not awaiting fulfillment.

Matt 5:3 "Blessed [are] the poor in spirit, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 4 Blessed [are] those who mourn, For they shall be comforted. 5 Blessed [are] the meek, For they shall inherit the earth. ,

He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, And with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked.

The 'rod of His mouth' and the 'breath of His lips' is the Word of God. His Word was spoken and spread throughout the world and His Truth has condemned the wicked to death.


5 Righteousness shall be the belt of His loins, And faithfulness the belt of His waist.

Again, attributes Jesus possessed when He walked the earth.

I'll have to continue the rest in a bit.

Peace to you,
Dave

[CWH]

Thank Joel for your advice.

As for Dave, my definition of date setting is providing a date or year when there is no confirmative proof; it doesn't matter whether it is BC or AD; it doesn't matter if it is retrospective or pro-spective.


Dave said:
Jesus is never called "the little child" outside of the story of His birth. Certainly never in His leadership role. The time of His life as a child is not the context at all here. Isaiah is not saying Christ as a child is playing with a snake. Again, IMO, you are reading too much into the illustration of the child and the cobra playing together in Isaiah 11.

Is'nt Jesus also known as the man-child or the male-child? Of course, Isaiah is not saying that Christ as a child is playing with a snake but rather that no one will be harmed by the evil one or its poison represented by the snake.


Dave said:
2 The Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon Him, The Spirit of wisdom and understanding, The Spirit of counsel and might, The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD.

All of these attributes applied in the first century to Christ.

Before the world was created, He was already there; before Abraham, he was. You mean Jesus has these attributes of Spirit of wisdomn and understanding, counsel and might, knowledge and fear of the Lord only during the 1st century?

Many Blessings.

[TheForgiven]

Chapter 11

11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the root of Jesse, and a blossom shall come up from his root: 2 and the Spirit of God shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and strength, the spirit of knowledge and godliness shall fill him; 3 the spirit of the fear of God. He shall not judge according to appearance, nor reprove according to report: 4 but he shall judge the cause of the lowly, and shall reprove the lowly of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the word of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he destroy the ungodly one. 5 And he shall have his loins girt with righteousness, and his sides clothed with truth.

6 And the wolf shall feed with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the young calf and bull and lion shall feed together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 And the ox and bear shall feed together; and their young shall be together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And an infant shall put his hand on the holes of asps, and on the nest of young asps. 9 And they shall not hurt, nor shall they at all be able to destroy any one on my holy mountain: for the whole world is filled with the knowledge of the Lord, as much water covers the seas. 10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall arise to rule over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust, and his rest shall be glorious. 11 And it shall be in that day, that the Lord shall again shew his hand, to be zealous for the remnant that is left of the people, which shall be left by the Assyrians, and that from Egypt, and from the country of Babylon, and from Ethiopia, and from the Elamites, and from the rising of the sun, and out of Arabia. 12 And he shall lift up a standard for the nations, and he shall gather the lost ones of Israel, and he shall gather the dispersed of Juda from the four corners of the earth. 13 And the envy of Ephraim shall be taken away, and the enemies of Juda shall perish: Ephraim shall not envy Juda, and Juda shall not afflict Ephraim. 14 And they shall fly in the ships of the Philistines: they shall at the same time spoil the sea, and them that come from the east, and Idumea: and they shall lay their hands on Moab first; but the children of Ammon shall first obey them.

15 And the Lord shall make desolate the sea of Egypt; and he shall lay his hand on the river with a strong wind, and he shall smite the seven channels, so that men shall pass through it dry-shod. 16 And there shall be a passage for my people that is left in Egypt: and it shall be to Israel as the day when he came forth out of the land of Egypt.

Listen to Esaias Chapter 12Chapter 12

12:1 And in that day thou shalt say, I will bless thee, O Lord; for thou wast angry with me, but thou hast turned aside thy wrath, and hast pitied me. 2 Behold, my God is my Saviour; I will trust in him, and not be afraid: for the Lord is my glory and my praise, and is become my salvation. 3 Draw ye therefore water with joy out of the wells of salvation. 4 And in that day thou shalt say, sing to the Lord, call aloud upon his name, proclaim his glorious deeds among the Gentiles; make mention that his name is exalted. 5 Sing praise to the name of the Lord; for he has done great things: declare this in all the earth. 6 Exalt and rejoice, ye that dwell in Sion: for the Holy One of Israel is exalted in the midst of her.

It's quite clear that this entire prophesy is in reference to the anointing of the Lord Jesus at His baptism. The Spirit of God rested upon Jesus (temple) and from that day forward, He began to smite the land with the sword of His mouth (His word and command). Through His word, which was at first preached to the children of Israel, the Gentiles became aware of His good deeds; the Spirit of grace, and the wonders that were declared all throughout the world.

Brother Cheow, I have not a single clue as to how you feel these wonders are a future event. The only reason I believe you view this prophesy as a future event is because of Israel of the flesh. Wouldn't it be a true statement that every time they read a passage speaking of Israel being blessed, they refer to those passages as a future event? If so, this would certainly explain the problems of the Futurist position. They view Israel of the flesh as a cursed nation which they insist is still happening. So until this mystical curse is removed, based on their view, no blessing can be proclaimed among Israel of the flesh.

But can this theory be true? Not in the slightest. If Israel of the flesh was cursed, then how did the Gospel's reach the Gentiles? Why would Christ explain to the Samaritan women at the water well that "Salvation is of the Jews...."?

The Prophesy in Isaiah 11 speaks nothing of a national Israel, receiving a single-poised blessing, to a single race. Instead, it speaks of nationalities, be it good or bad, all living amongst themselves. I think you might be reading too much into Isaiah 11, and going beyond what it written. Be careful brother Choew.....I say this in love. :pray:

Consider this. If the Prophesy above is a future event, then how do you explain "Egypt"? Are they too still being reckoned by God as a threat to the world? Last I've seen is that place is a deserted heap of sand, and it's only value are several old Pyramids which serve nothing more than to remind us of ancient construction skills.

Joe

[CWH]

Hi Joe,

It's the same as me telling you out of brothership love that why must everything said in the Bible be past and have already happened. Be careful Joe.

Moses talked about Jesus 1,500 years ago before Jesus came. Malachi talked about John the Baptist 500 years before John the Baptist came. Isaiah talked about Jesus and John the Baptist 500 years before Jesus and John the Baptist came. Would these prophesies matter to those living during Moses, Malachi and Isaiah's time? No, their prophesies were for those future generations after them.

Therefore, my advice is that when we read the Bible, we must read it with past and future events in mind. That is why I call myself a "preterist-futurist". Always ask yourself when e.g. when did " (Isaiah 11 an infant shall put his hand on the holes of asps, and on the nest of young asps. 9 And they shall not hurt, nor shall they at all be able to destroy any one on my holy mountain: for the whole world is filled with the knowledge of the Lord, as much water covers the seas" happened? When did "Isaiah 11:15 And the Lord shall make desolate the sea of Egypt; and he shall lay his hand on the river with a strong wind, and he shall smite the seven channels, so that men shall pass through it dry-shod. 16 And there shall be a passage for my people that is left in Egypt: and it shall be to Israel as the day when he came forth out of the land of Egypt." happened? If it has not happened as evident from historical reports, then it is probably a future event.

"Egypt" may be taken as symbolic just like Babylon which was already desolated during Peter's and John's time in the epistle of Peter and the book of Revelation.

Be careful Joe and everybody, read the Bible with past and future events in mind.

Many Blessings to all.

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

Therefore, my advice is that when we read the Bible, we must read it with past and future events in mind. That is why I call myself a "preterist-futurist". Always ask yourself when e.g. when did " (Isaiah 11 an infant shall put his hand on the holes of asps, and on the nest of young asps. 9 And they shall not hurt, nor shall they at all be able to destroy any one on my holy mountain: for the whole world is filled with the knowledge of the Lord, as much water covers the seas" happened? When did "Isaiah 11:15 And the Lord shall make desolate the sea of Egypt; and he shall lay his hand on the river with a strong wind, and he shall smite the seven channels, so that men shall pass through it dry-shod. 16 And there shall be a passage for my people that is left in Egypt: and it shall be to Israel as the day when he came forth out of the land of Egypt." happened? If it has not happened as evident from historical reports, then it is probably a future event.

Hi Chee,
When was the sun, moon and stars darkened and not give their light according to Matt 24?

[CWH]

Hi Chee,
When was the sun, moon and stars darkened and not give their light according to Matt 24?

Hi Endtimes,

Same as me asking you, where in the scripture did Christ came in AD 70?

Many Blessings.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Endtimes,

Same as me asking you, where in the scripture did Christ came in AD 70?

Many Blessings.
Hi Cheow,

The Bible plainly states that Jesus would come at the time the Temple was destroyed:

2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. ... 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Since we know this happened in 70 AD, why do you not accept it as true?

Richard

[TheForgiven]

Some (or most) futurist insist that the destruction of the temple in 70AD amounted to nothing. Some also teach that the destruction of the temple Jesus referred to was not the one they were standing in, but a future one, even beyond our day.

But this goes directly against the text.


Matthew 24:

2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

"See Ye not all these things?" If Jesus were referring to a future temple beyond their time frame, then how could they "see" was does not yet exist? Thus, only someone unskilled in basic reading could miss this obvious truth.

Now that the truth of what temple was to be destroyed is settled beyond a shadow of doubt, what then was the context of the Apostles question? It all centered around the temple. Why is this so? Because the discussion about the temple's destruction is what spawned the questions of the Apostles.

The problem with the Futurist position is that they "assume" the Apostles were already expecting a 2nd coming of Jesus, when in a great way, they were still have problems with his presence while among them. They never thought their new found Messiah was going to be taken away from them. So why would they be asking when He was going to return?

Anyways, the Apostles asked the questions as recorded in Matthew 24, having grown curious about the temple's destruction; for that is why they asked the questions in the first place.

Think about it. They're admiring the beauty of the temple, which was adorned by the gifts of the wealthy. Then being surprised upon hearing it was going to be brought down, they then became curious and asked, "When shall this take place, how shall we know that it's going to take place, and how shall we know that you will come [as the Messiah] to fulfill this destruction? Jesus then gives them all the clues they would need to know when "it was at the door". From the first signs, to the last signs, all of those signs pointed to the end of the temple, as recorded in Daniel's prophesy. And the signs were compared to the coming of spring. Spring causes all the trees and plants to grow; this is the sign of spring. Spring also lets us know that summer is very near. The signs were like the Spring, which indicated to them when the destruction of the temple was about to take place. The destruction of the temple ties hand in hand with the "Presence" of the Messiah, who would be the direct link to the fulfillment of Daniel's prophesy.


Daniel 9:

26 And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one shall be destroyed, and there is no judgment in him: and he [Jesus] shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that is coming: they shall be cut off with a flood, and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed he shall appoint the city to desolations.

Jesus testifies this to them by stating, "So when you see the Abomination that sets up the desolation [of Jerusalem], spoken of by Daniel the prophet [let the reader understand], then let them who is on the roof top GET OUT! Why? Because this was the time of God's wrath upon a stiff necked and disobedient people. As the scripture says, "All day long I have stretched out my hand to a stiff necked and obstinate people..." and again, "therefore I swore in my wrath, they shall NOT enter into my rest...."

This all happened in 70AD, and the signs that came before 70AD took place as He forewarned the Apostles.

Come on brother Cheow. I know you can see this quite clearly. Why do you still refuse? :confused:

Joe

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

Hi Endtimes,

Same as me asking you, where in the scripture did Christ came in AD 70?

Many Blessings.

No, that's different. I can answer your question, but you have a pre-conception of what that 'second coming' was supposed to be like. The scribes of the old covenant could not understand the dual nature of the Messiah,from the single lifespan inferred. Christ came in 70 AD, but revealing himself As the God of the Heaven; by fulfilling prophecies of the end of the mosaic covenant; and the establishment of the people of the everlasting covenant of mercy to those of a changed heart; the spiritual 'seed' of Israel.

But the question I'm asking you is to consider the figurative language of some prophecies; including the symbolism of a changing and ending rulership but the figurative language of the sun, moon and stars. This was previously used in Isaiah 13 to describe the Medes overthrow of Babylon. So why must it mean literal sun/moon/stars in Matt 24??

[CWH]

It's the same as me telling you all, why don't yo all believe about the second coming. Where in the Bible did it say that Jesus came back in AD 70? Where is the historical record? Show me the words in the Bible that Jerusalem was surrounded by the Roman army, show me in the Bible that they flee to the mountains of Pella, show me in the Bible that Titus desolated the holy place, show me in the BIble that "if God have not shortened those days, no one will survive" when in fact many Jews and Romans survived.

What was at the door and coming soon? Who was at the door and coming soon? Jesus or is it the Church or is it a new religion call Christianity that was to be unleashed into the world. Jesus is the Temple (the Church), Jesus is the way, the truth and the life (Christianity). All these were unleashed into the whole world after the Temple of Jerusalem was destroyed in AD 70. The Kingdom of God was coming soon i.e. the Kingdom of the Christians was coming soon with Christ as the King; it meant Christianity and the Church with Christ as the King was coming soon into this world after the crucification and after AD 70. Christianity later as according to historical records spread from the Roman Empire, the Eastern Roman Empire, through conquests, missionaries, persecutions, colonizations by the Colonial powers really spread throughout the world with churches establishing everywhere in the whole world.

This is how I come into this conclusion, I read the Bible with the past and future in mind.

When was the sun, moon and stars darkened and not give their light according to Matt 24? It did not happened does not mean it will not happen. Is it possible that the sun, moon and stars darkened and will not give its light? Is it possible? Yes, imagine a world covered in smog blocking the light from the sun, moon and the stars. Anyway, whatever the cause, Nothing is impossible with God....or.... are you doubting that Nothing is impossible with God.

There are many hints to the second coming, why don't you all believe it? One example is (there are many others which I have already indicated in many of my posts in this forum):

Isaiah 11:11 In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the remnant that is left of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, [c] from Elam, from Babylonia, [d] from Hamath and from the islands of the sea.

12 He will raise a banner for the nations
and gather the exiles of Israel;
he will assemble the scattered people of Judah
[B]from the four quarters of the earth.

Have this happened? If so when? Think about it.

Many Blessings to all.:)

[CWH]

Hi,

Don't be mistaken, I am not saying that the preterists are wrong about Matthew 24 but that there are no substantial proof that Jesus came in AD 70, that fleeing to the mountains was fleeing to Mt. Pella, that the one that desolate the temple was Titus, that the armies that surrounded Jerusalem were the Roman armies. As I do believe in double fulfillment, Matthew 24 may be talking about the fall of Jerusalem but the proof were not convincing enough and it may also be talking about events in the second coming of Christ.

I just can't understand why full preterist cannot come into the same consensus as partial preterist who believe in the second coming of Christ. Why must everything in the bIble were past and have been fulfilled? It would be good from the outsider's point of view if mild preterist, partial preterist and full preterist would come into a same consensus about the second coming of Christ and say with the same voice and conviction.

Many Blessings to all.

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

It's the same as me telling you all, why don't yo all believe about the second coming. Where in the Bible did it say that Jesus came back in AD 70? Where is the historical record? Show me the words in the Bible that Jerusalem was surrounded by the Roman army, show me in the Bible that they flee to the mountains of Pella, show me in the Bible that Titus desolated the holy place, show me in the BIble that "if God have not shortened those days, no one will survive" when in fact many Jews and Romans survived.

What was at the door and coming soon? Who was at the door and coming soon? Jesus or is it the Church or is it a new religion call Christianity that was to be unleashed into the world. Jesus is the Temple (the Church), Jesus is the way, the truth and the life (Christianity). All these were unleashed into the whole world after the Temple of Jerusalem was destroyed in AD 70. The Kingdom of God was coming soon i.e. the Kingdom of the Christians was coming soon with Christ as the King; it meant Christianity and the Church with Christ as the King was coming soon into this world after the crucification and after AD 70. Christianity later as according to historical records spread from the Roman Empire, the Eastern Roman Empire, through conquests, missionaries, persecutions, colonizations by the Colonial powers really spread throughout the world with churches establishing everywhere in the whole world.

This is how I come into this conclusion, I read the Bible with the past and future in mind.

When was the sun, moon and stars darkened and not give their light according to Matt 24? It did not happened does not mean it will not happen. Is it possible that the sun, moon and stars darkened and will not give its light? Is it possible? Yes, imagine a world covered in smog blocking the light from the sun, moon and the stars. Anyway, whatever the cause, Nothing is impossible with God....or.... are you doubting that Nothing is impossible with God.

There are many hints to the second coming, why don't you all believe it? One example is (there are many others which I have already indicated in many of my posts in this forum):

Isaiah 11:11 In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the remnant that is left of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, [c] from Elam, from Babylonia, [d] from Hamath and from the islands of the sea.

12 He will raise a banner for the nations
and gather the exiles of Israel;
he will assemble the scattered people of Judah
[B]from the four quarters of the earth.

Have this happened? If so when? Think about it.

Many Blessings to all.:)
When you understand God's purpose of the mosaic covenant as a shadow and typological covenant to verify and prove the depth and reality of the covenant of Mercy and righteousness by faith, then you will not ask these above questions.

Those to whom Jesus was talking to in that 'genea'; that lifespan, were the only ones who could have directly responded to the prophecies because he stated that all those things would come upon that Genea. The reason people such as yourself don't' full grasp the first century fulfillment is possibly because you (like I once didn't ) don't know history, know the Greek definitions of aeon and genea and others; nor realize that the 'end' that Jesus is referring to was talking of the end of that Mosaic covenant, not the end of evil, or the end of death, or the end of the physical planet earth.

That is one reason I ask you when the sun,moon and stars did not give their light as when it was first prophesied to a different circumstance in Isaiah 13.

What was Isaiah 13 talking about?

When Isaiah 11 talks about the 'second time' you must first answer the question as to what was the first time that he brought the people out of Egypt.

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

Hi,

Don't be mistaken, I am not saying that the preterists are wrong about Matthew 24 but that there are no substantial proof that Jesus came in AD 70, that fleeing to the mountains was fleeing to Mt. Pella, that the one that desolate the temple was Titus, that the armies that surrounded Jerusalem were the Roman armies. As I do believe in double fulfillment, Matthew 24 may be talking about the fall of Jerusalem but the proof were not convincing enough and it may also be talking about events in the second coming of Christ.

I just can't understand why full preterist cannot come into the same consensus as partial preterist who believe in the second coming of Christ.
We would consider that his so called 'second coming" was not in bodily form (at least there is no immediate record that Christ was among the angels who led the church out of Judea although it could be possible). The very same Jesus who went into the presence of God and into the Heaven, also came from the presence of God through the Roman armies, through the minds of the leaders of the enemies (Deut 32:42) with sword (Duet 32 and Isaiah 66) and so forth. It was the coming of the Messiah in one life-span, but dual natures.


Why must everything in the bIble were past and have been fulfilled? It would be good from the outsider's point of view if mild preterist, partial preterist and full preterist would come into a same consensus about the second coming of Christ and say with the same voice and conviction. Alot of partial prets eventually come over to 'full prets". Sometimes they go through a stage of hyper preterism afterwards where everything revolves around 70 AD, but then they eventually recognize that 70 AD was simply the judgment act of seperating the sheep and goats;the people of the circumcised heart from the conditional land/nation covenant people. It was the ending of the intercovenantal period of 30 AD to 70 AD and the establishment and of the international nation of Christ as the 'people of God'

Recall that after the end of the 40 yrs of wandering in the wilderness and when they went to cross the Jordan as a Nation was when those people were first called a people of God. This was a type of the formation of the international nation of the Everlasting gospel. Deut 27:9

It was the judgment that sat when favor was given to the saints of the son of man in Dan 7.

[TheForgiven]

Alot of partial prets eventually come over to 'full prets". Sometimes they go through a stage of hyper preterism afterwards where everything revolves around 70 AD, but then they eventually recognize that 70 AD was simply the judgment act of seperating the sheep and goats;the people of the circumcised heart from the conditional land/nation covenant people. It was the ending of the intercovenantal period of 30 AD to 70 AD and the establishment and of the international nation of Christ as the 'people of God'

Greetings Deut32. I agree with you above. I believe we Full Prets often get so caught up with 70AD that we assume everything came to finality during that time frame. Revelation speaks of the harlots judgment which we know was finished in 70AD. Where Full Prets often neglect is the judgment of the Beast itself, which we know to be the Roman Empire.

It seems to me that since the harlot (Israel of the flesh) was the first to receive the gospels, it makes sense that they would be the first to be judged. That is why Peter states, "For it is time for judgment to begin with the house of God....and what of the ungodly, and the sinner?"

Thus, Preterist get so caught up in talking about the Harlot's judgment, that they neglect to mention how the Beast was judged. Rome did not fall silently into the night. The Christians all throughout the Roman dominated world suffered horrors we could only dream of. Massive earth quakes, horrendous volcano eruptions (Pompeii), and wars too numerous to count. The Barbarians weakened Rome to the point that Rome nearly lost the entire western world. Christians suffered persecution in an estimated 9 different occasions well after 70AD. If I recall my history correctly, Emperor Diocletian was the last Roman Emperor to order a national hunt down and destruction of all Christian churches. He issued an edict to cease all Christian books, writings, and any literature to be burned. This would explain why reliable Christian sources before the 3rd century are difficult to find.

After Diocletian's death, Constantine (at the behest of his wife) would begin the transition from a threatening Empire to the Christians, to an Empire that made Christianity the official religion of the Roman dominated world. The Church would be protected by those who once tried to destroy it.

Thus, it is my opinion that the Beast (Rome) saw its decline in the late first century as attested by the writings of Pliny the young to Emperor Trajan in the late 90's AD. In his writing to the Emperor, Pliny the younger explained the financial problems caused by the rapid expansion of the sect called Christians. The rapid expansion of Christianity directly impacted the profits from the pagan temple markets. Even though Trajan didn't want to get caught up in wasting money hunting down Christians to be placed on trial, he did not forbid the persecution, nor the execution of those found guilty of being a Christian.

At any rate, the Harlot was judged in 70AD, and the Beast was being judged afterwards.

Where I think Futurist are in error is that they view the judgment of both harlot and beast as a future event. This of course would make absolutely no sense to the original audience; especially when they start introducing science fiction into Prophesy (i.e. implant chips, UFO's, a world-ruling Anti-Christ, and other such absurdities) I understand their position, but it's that very position that has caused the Church to lose credibility among the world. They are guilty of treating God's prophesies in a "hit and miss" fashion. Someone will make a guess based on the events of his day, sell it in book stores, and broadcast their theories on national television. Then, when all fails to come to pass, they don't bother to make a public apology. Instead, they shrug it off as being wrong as though it's normal to misjudge prophesies. Yet their failings never seem to outweigh their need to refrain from such falsehood. Like a hungry wolf, they keep searching for the right answers, but are never able to acknowledge the truth. So in their eyes, it's okay to be mistaken or wrong about their predictions and/or theories, as though God purposely made His prophesies impossible to discern, in order to somehow keep mankind guessing about His return. Oh well, I'd say that their economy would certainly never come to an end.

Great chatting with you bro....keep up the good work.

Joe