Joshuas "Stone of Witness"

[Rose]

As I was looking through the papers I have stuffed in my Bible, I noticed a picture I downloaded awhile back of the Archaeological ruins of Shechem,with Joshua's stone of witness still partially standing.

Heres the link http://www.netours.com/jrs/2003/balata.htm

I noticed over on the Shechem thread in one of the posts that Joshua's stone was mentioned because of its location at Shechem. Joshua's stone has been a topic of interest to me because of its connection to the "stone with seven eyes" in Zech 3:9.


The stone of witness is introduced in Joshua 24: 26-27, where it says Joshua took a Great Stone ( Ehven Gadolah ) and set it up under the oak by the sanctuary of the Lord …… Behold the Stone ( Hinney Ha Ehven ) this shall be For a witness unto us. Here we have Joshua and a Great Stone, which has heard all the words of the Lord.


Jumping ahead to Zechariah where again we find a person called Joshua and a stone. In Zechariah 3:9 it says Behold the stone ( Hinney Ha Ehven , the same word as in the book of Joshua ) that I have laid before Joshua, upon One Stone ( Ehven Echat ) seven eyes, behold! I will engrave the graving thereof…..


The stone in the book of Joshua that has heard all the words of the Lord is the same stone with seven eyes that is laid before Joshua the high priest in Zechariah. The number seven being used to convey the idea of completeness. Going on to chapter 4 of Zechariah we find Zerubbabel being given a double witness of Joshua’s stone of witness when he brings forth the Headstone ( Ehven Ha Roshah ). God has engraved upon Joshua’s stone with seven eyes all the words of the Lord, it is complete, it is forever a witness of the finished work of Christ when its says ' I will remove the iniquity of that land in One Day' .When Jesus came to fulfill all that was written, He finished His work in one day.


Revelation 5: gives us a different view of the same thing. John sees a scroll written within and without, sealed with seven seals in the right hand of God. John is very sad because there is no one worthy to open the book and loose its seals. Then one of the 24 elders tells him the ' Lion of the tribe of Judah ' is worthy to open the book and then John sees a Lamb slain, having seven eyes which are the seven Spirits of God ( Zech.3:9 the stone with seven eyes; Zech 4:10 "those seven which are the eyes of the Lord" ). The following verses tell us why the Lamb is worthy to open the Book with the seven seals, Rev. 5:9 ' Thou art worthy to take the Book and open the seals thereof, for thou wast slain and has redeemed us to God by thy blood '.


My conclusion is that: 1) Joshua’s Stone of witness, 2) the Stone with seven eyes in Zech 3:9 and 3) the Book sealed with seven seals are all, one and the same: the Holy Bible, the Word of God, complete and finished.

Jesus Christ "the Word" alone is worthy to open the Book sealed with seven seals ( the Bible ), because ofthe shedding of His blood. He has fulfilled the whole of Gods requirements for our redemption. God’s plan is finished and complete and contained totally in the Holy Bible.

Praise God forevermore :pray:

Rose

[yinonyavo]

Rose, yes, I agree completely. The seven eyes are the seven spirits, are the seven seals...............this has been my study for years.........how they all discribe the 7 fold word/covenant of salvation. The seven feasts, the seven creation days, seven pieces of furniture, etc., etc. all tie together to give a complete picture of God's salvation. This Shechem thing has been more recent for me and I see the pieces fitting, but the clarity isn't all there yet. My pea brain can't just take it all in yet!!:thumb:

Ps 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

My conclusion is that: 1) Joshua’s Stone of witness, 2) the Stone with seven eyes in Zech 3:9 and 3) the Book sealed with seven seals are all, one and the same: the Holy Bible, the Word of God, complete and finished.

Jesus Christ "the Word" alone is worthy to open the Book sealed with seven seals ( the Bible ), because ofthe shedding of His blood. He has fulfilled the whole of Gods requirements for our redemption. God’s plan is finished and complete and contained totally in the Holy Bible.

Praise God forevermore :pray:

Rose

Excellent post Rose! The confluence of those symbols is truly astounding, and prophetic.

But I would modify the conclusion slightly to say that Joshua's Great Stone, Zechariah's One Stone with Seven Eyes, and John's Book sealed with Seven Seals, are all prophetic symbols of God's Word. I know it sounds nit-picky, but I think this is important because Joshua's Stone was a literal chunk of rock, which the Bible is not. And I know you knew this ... I was just clarifying because I have a obsessive compulsion to be as accurate as possible with my words, since sloppy language is a major source of confusion in theological discussions.

Richard

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Rose, yes, I agree completely. The seven eyes are the seven spirits, are the seven seals...............this has been my study for years.........how they all discribe the 7 fold word/covenant of salvation. The seven feasts, the seven creation days, seven pieces of furniture, etc., etc. all tie together to give a complete picture of God's salvation. This Shechem thing has been more recent for me and I see the pieces fitting, but the clarity isn't all there yet. My pea brain can't just take it all in yet!!:thumb:

Ps 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Speaking of "Seven" and the Covenant, the Hebrew word B'rit (covenant) sums to 612 which is the value of the Greek Graphe (Scripture) in which God has revealed His Covenant, and it just so happens that the Hebrew phrase Sheva Pa'am (Seven Times) also sums to 612. I talk about in my article Seven and Scripture (http://www.biblewheel.com/Topics/seven.asp).

RAM

[yinonyavo]

:thumb:Ya, I remember that one well. Seven (SHEVA) and to Sware(oath) are the same word if I recall.

Ge 26:3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;

Heb 6:13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,

[Richard Amiel McGough]

:thumb:Ya, I remember that one well. Seven (SHEVA) and to Sware(oath) are the same word if I recall.

Ge 26:3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;

Heb 6:13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
Yes indeed! The are essentially the same word. And God explains the meaning of this Shin KeyWord Sheva in Genesis 21 (Shin = 21st letter) as well as its relation to the Number Seven (note the English "seven" is cognate with the Hebrew sheva):


Genesis 21:22-31 22 ¶ And it came to pass at that time, that Abimelech and Phichol the chief captain of his host spake unto Abraham, saying, God is with thee in all that thou doest: 23 Now therefore swear unto me here by God that thou wilt not deal falsely with me, nor with my son, nor with my son's son: but according to the kindness that I have done unto thee, thou shalt do unto me, and to the land wherein thou hast sojourned. 24 And Abraham said, I will swear. ... 27 And Abraham took sheep and oxen, and gave them unto Abimelech; and both of them made a covenant. 28 And Abraham set seven ewe lambs of the flock by themselves. 29 And Abimelech said unto Abraham, What mean these seven ewe lambs which thou hast set by themselves? 30 And he said, For these seven ewe lambs shalt thou take of my hand, that they may be a witness unto me, that I have digged this well. 31 Wherefore he called that place Beersheba; because there they sware both of them. Now get this ... the first word in the Bible that sums to 373 is ishavea' which is the word Sheva (Seven/Swear) prefixed with an Aleph as the sign of the first person future tense (the idea of "I WILL" which is the essence of Aleph). You can confirm this in my fancy new database by clicking here:
Search for 373 (http://www.biblewheel.com/Gr/GR_Database.asp?Gem_Num=373&getnumdata=Go). Thus the first occurrence of 373 (Logos/Word) appeared when Abram said he would swear, that is, give his word.

And all of this gives us the ultimate confidence in God's Word which He marked indelibly with the Number Seven because it is His Promise, His Oath, His Covenant!

Amen and Amen. This gives me chills every time I write about it. There is no end to the glory of God's revelation!

RAM

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I forgot to mention that Logos = 373 corresponds to Spoke 21 because 373 = 21 + 16 x 22, or for the math heads: 373 mod 22 = 21. Thus we find the "Logos" Gospel (The Gospel of John) on Spoke 21. Note also that the Greek name Ioannes (John) = 1119 = 3 x 373. I could go on .... but I have some coding to do for upgrades on the database. :D

RAM

[Stephen]

Greetings All!

I'm really glad Rose got this thread started. There are so many interesting things that have been mentioned already concerning Joshua's stone, as well as the verses from Zechariah that speak of a stone in relation to Joshua.

I want to share something that is not my own, which, in fact, came from an email exchange with Richard some years back. I'm sure Richard would agree that his findings be made known to all.

Richard noted that the phrase Hinneh haEben occurs in only two places in the Bible. These are the verses Rose quoted, at Joshua 24:27 and at Zechariah 3:9. Of course, Joshua is the same name as Jesus. Richard notes:

"For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua" = 2070 = 10 x aur (light).
This then links, he says, to Psalm 118:23:

"This is the LORD's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes" = 2070.

Richard notes that the previous verse, from Psalm 118:22, sums to 1359 = Eyewitness (Strong's #845). Again, the stone and the eye motif recurs.
Richard then goes on to show that:

"Upon one stone seven eyes" = 1119 = 3 x 373 (Logos) = John. Note that John uses the word Logos 3 times in the first verse of his gospel.

The initial part of this email concerned the strong gematrical connection Richard had noticed between the Shema and the verse at Joshua 24:27. Here is how Richard described it, comparing the verse in Joshua with the Shema:

(a) "Behold, this stone, it shall be" = 951 = "Hear, O Israel"
(b) "a witness unto us" = 167 = "The LORD our God is one LORD"

With (b), Richard noted that the words translated as "a witness unto us" are banu l'Edah, which, with a change of vowel points, become benu l'Edah = A witness for His Son. He noted the word for witness is Ed = ayin - daleth, the two letters written large in the Shema.

Furthermore, Richard also noted that the next part of the phrase in Joshua's quote reads:

"For it hath heard all the words of the LORD" = 1189 = the number of chapters in the Bible.

This email began from a point I had made that the 1189 chapters could be imagined as 3 hexagons, each consisting of 397 counters, linked in a chain. In this schema, two points are shared, these being the points that link the hexagons. From this, we noted that the full spelling of Joshua = 397. Richard also noted the link between 397 and the number Seven through:

"The seventh" (haSheva'ai) = 397 = "The Seven" (ai hepta).

All of the stuff from the old email is relevant to the thread being discussed here. I hope folks will be blessed as old things are renewed by the fresh sharing thereof.

Stephen

[Stephen]

Hi All!

A footnote to the previous post, while we're playing around with all these numbers.
Rose mentions at Revelation 5:6 "a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth".
Intriguingly, there is a gematrical and Mazzaroth parallel of this word picture. Let me explain.

One of the tribes of Israel was named Gad. This word is pronounced pretty much exactly the same as the English word God, and may very possibly be the root for the word we use for the Deity! In relation to all the sevens in the verse at Revelation 5, consider this:
(a) Gad was the seventh son of Israel
(b) Gad himself had seven sons
(c) The name Gad has a gematrical value of seven

What really is interesting is that the tribe of Gad were associated with the Mazzaroth (zodiac) sign of Aries. In Hebrew taleh, Aries is a depiction of "the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" (John 1:29). The tribe of Gad were also great sheep-keepers, something they had in common with the tribe of Reuben (Numbers 32, especially verses 34-36). The sheepfolds and cattlefolds that Israel built at Succoth (Genesis 33:17) were inherited by the tribe of Gad (Joshua 13:24-28). The city of Succoth - Hebrew S-K-O-T - was of utmost importance to the Gadites according to Scripture. The tribe of Gad is known today as the Scots, which is the subject for another fascinating thread.

Stephen

[yinonyavo]

I forgot to mention that Logos = 373 corresponds to Spoke 21 because 373 = 21 + 16 x 22, or for the math heads: 373 mod 22 = 21. Thus we find the "Logos" Gospel (The Gospel of John) on Spoke 21. Note also that the Greek name Ioannes (John) = 1119 = 3 x 373. I could go on .... but I have some coding to do for upgrades on the database.

AND...."shechem achad" = 373, the double portion given to Israel (Ephriam):)

[Stephen]

Indeed, 'shechem echad' relates to the sons of Joseph, with Ephraim being set first. Note that the stone of Joshua is intimately bound to Ephraim, for Joshua was an Ephraimite. Note also the reference to the 'stone of Israel' at the blessing of Joseph (Genesis 49:24).

I believe this stone symbol is an identity mark of Joseph. Both Ephraim and Manasseh received the birthright blessing, not just Ephraim (see Genesis 48 and 1 Chronicles 5:1). Ephraim was given the preeminence, but the birthright was shared.

If you view post #8 of this thread, and compare it with post #27 at the thread Is America Manasseh?, a picture begins to build up as to how I believe this stone is seen today on the Great Seal of the United States.

Stephen

[Geoffrey]

Eyes
We see with our eyes, so we might call them seers. Seers are prophets, men who see visions (1Sa 9:9; 2Ch 9:29) and bring us Thus saith the Lord. We see by light, which come from stars. Stars are preeminent ones (Merriam Webster's Dictionary) like the stars of Hollywood are preeminent amongst the actors. The seven stars in the right hand of Jesus (Rev 1:16) are the seven preachers of the Word written on the rock, who are preeminent each in his age.

From John 3:34, we can also see that the seven spirits of God (Rev 5:6) are the one Spirit of God as it spoke in a measure (a seventh) through each of the seven preeminent preachers.

Stone
Jesus is the stone hewn out without hands (Dan 2:34), because He did not have a man for a father, but God (Mat 1:20) and He is the faithful witness (Rev 1:5). Some of the Word came to each of the prophets (Eze 1:3), but all of the Word came to Jesus Christ (Joh 3:34; Col 2:9).

Foundation
Some believe that the church is built upon Peter, because Jesus said: "Thou art Peter" - Peter meaning little stone - and then followed with: "And upon this rock I will built my church" - Mat 16:18. Others believe the church is built upon Jesus, because Paul wrote: "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ" - 1Co 3:11. Should there be an argument when Paul wrote in Ephesians 2:20 that the church is built upon the apostles and the prophets and Jesus Christ? I believe the church is built upon the revelation of the mystery of God, which it receives from God through the apostles and the prophets and Jesus Christ the preminent one. Romans 16:25 reads that we are established - founded - according to the revelation of the mystery.

In Matthew 16:17-18, Jesus said to Peter that no man had revealed to him who He, Jesus, was but God. When Jesus said "upon this rock", He refered to that revelation that Peter had received.

To have the written Word is one thing, to understand it is another. The written Word is right before us, but it is a mystery, it is hidden in darkness (Rom 11:25). To understand it, to see it, we need the light from the stars to reveal it to us. Every man may have his own interpretation of the Bible, but that is not profitable (2Pe 1:19-21). We want to see the truth through the seven eyes of God.

Geoffrey

[Stephen]

Hi Geoffrey!

Just a few queries concerning your post.

What are you referring to when you say "the seven stars in the right hand of Jesus are the seven preachers of the Word written on the rock, who are preeminent each in his age"? I see nothing in the text that suports your assumption concerning seven preeminent preachers, unless by that you mean the seven churches. Your wording is terribly vague, and I find your assumptions somewhat troubling.

Can you prove that the "stone cut out without hands" at Daniel 2:34 is referring specifically to Jesus Christ? I do not concur with your reading of this symbol. Who does the feet of iron and of clay represent? And have they been struck yet by the stone? If so, when?

You say that you think the church is founded upon the revelation of the mystery of God. What do you mean by that? You give no explanation of that term. It sounds too nebulous and imprecise to have any value until you define what you mean by it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds to me that your belief system is literally heading out to space. I truly hope that this is not so!

Stephen

[Geoffrey]

You say that you think the church is founded upon the revelation of the mystery of God. What do you mean by that? You give no explanation of that term. It sounds too nebulous and imprecise to have any value until you define what you mean by it.


Hi Stephen. If you understand the following verses, surely you know what I mean.

Number 1:


Mark 4:11-12 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: (12) That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
Notice: mystery of the kingdom of God. It was given unto the disciples to know the mystery, which means the mystery was revealed unto them. Let us take the complement of verse 12. Because the mystery is revealed unto us, we will understand the kingdom of God, we will be converted and our sins will be forgiven. Peter laid the foundation in Acts 2:38 when he told the onlookers to repent and be baptised for the remission of sins. In Acts 3:19, he also said that they should repent and be converted that their sins may be blotted out. We know that when the gospel is preached for the first time, we speak of its foundation being laid (Rom 15:20). And what are the first principles of the doctrine of Christ but forgiveness of sins, conversion, repentance and understanding, which is impossible except for the revelation of the mystery of the kingdom of God.

Crystal! I hope.:)

I will follow up with the other verses in my next posts.

Geoffrey

[Stephen]

Hi Geoffrey!

Thanks for clarifying that. I have no problems with your explanation concerning the mystery of the kingdom of God providing that you include the receiving of the Holy Spirit with it (Acts 2:38; John 3:3,5). Only the Spirit can reveal to us the mind of God (1 John 2:20,27). I look forward to your clarification of the other queries I had, in particular what you mean by seven preeminent preachers.

Stephen

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Stephen. If you understand the following verses, surely you know what I mean.

Number 1:


Notice: mystery of the kingdom of God. It was given unto the disciples to know the mystery, which means the mystery was revealed unto them. Let us take the complement of verse 12. Because the mystery is revealed unto us, we will understand the kingdom of God, we will be converted and our sins will be forgiven. Peter laid the foundation in Acts 2:38 when he told the onlookers to repent and be baptised for the remission of sins. In Acts 3:19, he also said that they should repent and be converted that their sins may be blotted out. We know that when the gospel is preached for the first time, we speak of its foundation being laid (Rom 15:20). And what are the first principles of the doctrine of Christ but forgiveness of sins, conversion, repentance and understanding, which is impossible except for the revelation of the mystery of the kingdom of God.

Crystal! I hope.:)

I will follow up with the other verses in my next posts.

Geoffrey

It seems to me that the "mystery of the Kingdom" is "Christ in you" as Paul said here:


Colossians 1:25-27 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; 26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Does that fit with what you were saying Geoffrey?

Richard

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I believe the church is built upon the revelation of the mystery of God, which it receives from God through the apostles and the prophets and Jesus Christ the preminent one.

Geoffrey

Are the "Apostles and Prophets" the same as those Paul spoke of when he wrote this ...


Ephesians 2:19-22 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. ... or do you believe that have been other "Apostles and Prophets" since the time Paul wrote that?

Richard

[Geoffrey]

Hi Geoffrey!

Thanks for clarifying that. I have no problems with your explanation concerning the mystery of the kingdom of God providing that you include the receiving of the Holy Spirit with it (Acts 2:38; John 3:3,5). Only the Spirit can reveal to us the mind of God (1 John 2:20,27). I look forward to your clarification of the other queries I had, in particular what you mean by seven preeminent preachers.

Stephen

Yes. We receive revelation from the Holy Spirit.

By the preeminent preachers I do mean the seven angels to the seven church ages of the gentiles, which is one of the mysteries of God. Another mystery is of who God is, the mystery of Godliness or of the Godhead. Let me add another verse concerning the importance of revelation afterwhich which I will give my understanding of the seven church ages.

Number 2:



Romans 10:17-18 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (18) But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.


Verse 17 reads that faith cometh by hearing, hearing meaning more than hearing sounds with our ears, but also understanding what we hear (Mat 13:13). The understanding comes from a sovereign revelation from the Holy Spirit. Many other people have heard, but did not understand. In 2 Peter 1, we read how the Christian is built up to the full stature of a perfect man in seven steps starting with faith. So, we cannot even come to first base without revelation.

Church Ages:

Let us look at how Paul was preeminent among the apostles and prophets of his day.


He did not receive the revelation from man, but face to face from God (Gal 1:1).
No man could teach him anything more than what he had already learned from God (Gal 2:6).
He did not need commendation from anybody, because nobody had any stature higher than his (2 Co 3:1).
He was the father of the gospel, notwithstanding the many teachers (1 Co 4:15).
It was his gospel (Rom 2:16; Rom 16:25; 2 Ti 2:8).
He rebuked Peter, the one who had the keys, for his hypocrisy (Gal 2:11-21) .
If a man thought of himself as a prophet or as having the Holy Spirit let him acknowledge what Paul preached or be accursed (1Co 14:36-37; Gal 1:8-9).We know from the dictionary that a preeminent one can be called a star, which is a lightgiver. The preaching of the message to the Gentiles by Paul brought us light as is read in the following verse.




Acts 13:46-48 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. (47) For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. (48) And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
At this point, God stopped dealing with the Jews and started to deal with the gentiles. A dispensation of the gospel was given unto Paul (1Co 9:17), but was only the first of many dispensations.[/quote]



Ephesians 2:7 That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

The ages to comes. Just as God has given us His written Word in seven canons, He has dispensed the revelation of the written Word to the gentiles in seven church ages. As God builts up the individual in seven steps from faith to charity, so He builds up the bride. After the gentile ages are fulfilled, God will again turn to the Jews.



Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.



Ephesians 1:9-10 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: (10) That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him





Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

The times of the Gentiles. How many times? Seven times.

The churches of Revelation 2 and 3 were actual congregations in Asia Minor, but also symbolic of the seven church ages, because the traits of the congegrations matched the traits the church would have in each age. To each age Jesus sent an angel, a messenger, a star to bring the light of the Word. Jesus gave the revelation to the angel and then the angel gave it to the people.



Revelation 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Paul, the angel to the first church age, Ephesus, sets the pattern for the other angels.





Ephesians 3:2-4 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: (3) How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, (4) Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Geoffrey

[Stephen]

Hi Geoffrey!

I don't have time to go into any depth with your last post, but I must say I'm mighty relieved that you are referring to the angels of the seven churches of Rev. 2 and 3 when you mean the seven preeminent preachers. For a horrible moment there I thought you might be building to a scenario whereby God is an ET!:tea:
While I don't believe that Paul can by any biblical definition be said to be an angel, it's a lot better than saying that some ET from the stars is a messenger for the church!
Concerning the seven churches also having a symbolic meaning which is grounded in the history of the church from ca. 100 AD to the present, I am in agreement.

While we're zipping around the subject of stars, it's an oddity that the verse you quote from Romans 10:18 is itself a quote from Psalm 19:4, which psalm initially deals with the glory of the heavens. Paul is quoting a verse wherein it is the heavens that are witnessing to God. Interesting!

Stephen

[Rose]

Thank you Geoffry :yo:

For your clarification of the seven preachers, I also was worried :confused:


Yes. We receive revelation from the Holy Spirit.

By the preeminent preachers I do mean the seven angels to the seven church ages of the gentiles, which is one of the mysteries of God. Another mystery is of who God is, the mystery of Godliness or of the Godhead

I think you made some good points in your post.


At this point, God stopped dealing with the Jews and started to deal with the gentiles. A dispensation of the gospel was given unto Paul (1Co 9:17), but was only the first of many dispensations.

I would clarify the Jews as being the unbelieving branches that were broken off.


The ages to come. Just as God has given us His written Word in seven canons, He has dispensed the revelation of the written Word to the gentiles in seven church ages. As God builds up the individual in seven steps from faith to charity, so He builds up the bride. After the gentile ages are fulfilled, God will again turn to the Jews.

As with many things in the Bible, there are multiple levels meaning, which is true for the Seven Churches of Revelation, beginning with seven literal churches.

Rose

[Geoffrey]

I don't have time to go into any depth with your last post, but I must say I'm mighty relieved that you are referring to the angels of the seven churches of Rev. 2 and 3 when you mean the seven preeminent preachers. For a horrible moment there I thought you might be building to a scenario whereby God is an ET!:tea:
Concerning the seven churches also having a symbolic meaning which is grounded in the history of the church from ca. 100 AD to the present, I am in agreement.

Hi Stephen!
:tea:

While I don't believe that Paul can by any biblical definition be said to be an angel, it's a lot better than saying that some ET from the stars is a messenger for the church!

To see that angel can also refer to a man, here is what the angel said to John when John wanted to worship him.



Revelation 22:8-9 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which showed me these things. (9) Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

The angel said that he was of the prophets who are men, which means the angel was a man. The sayings of the book are addressed to men, not to spirit angels.
Geoffrey

[Geoffrey]

It seems to me that the "mystery of the Kingdom" is "Christ in you" as Paul said here:

Does that fit with what you were saying Geoffrey?

Richard

Yes, Richard. But there is more than one mystery.



1Co 4:1 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.


Another mystery is of the resurrection.



1 Corinthians 15:51-52 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, (52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

[Geoffrey]

Hi Richard.


Are the "Apostles and Prophets" the same as those Paul spoke of when he wrote this ...

Yes. And they have given us all the words of God as written in the Bible.


... or do you believe that have been other "Apostles and Prophets" since the time Paul wrote that?

Richard

Yes. Even today we have apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers, which God have placed in the church to build her up through the seven church ages.



Ephesians 4:11-13 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; (12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: (13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:


The fivefold ministry is given (verse 13) till we come to the measure of the stature of of the fullness of Christ, which will be when the fullness of the Gentiles have come in (Rom 11:25).

Geoffrey

[Richard Amiel McGough]

:focus:


This thread is now officially returned to the topic of "Joshua's Stone of Witness." I have moved the posts discussing William Branham to a thread of the same name. Folks interested in continuing that conversation with Geoffrey are encouraged to post there.

RAM