Biblenumeric - English

[biblenumeric]

HOLY BIBLE=90 WORD FACT=90 REALITY=90 A=1 B=2 C=3...Z=26 JESUS=74 MESSIAH=74 HAND OF GOD=74 CROSS=74 GOSPEL=74 FINISHED=74 FORGAVE=74 FRUIT=74 SIMPLE=74 ELEMENT=74 TALKING=74 BETWEEN=74 HEAVENS=74 CLOUDS=74 CONNECT=74 (RELATED TO LAST DAYS... ENGLISH=74 NUCLEAR=74 ENERGY=74 RULER=74) JESUS TIME=121 REVELATION=121 EQUATIONS=121:)

[Richard Amiel McGough]

HOLY BIBLE=90 WORD FACT=90 REALITY=90 A=1 B=2 C=3...Z=26 JESUS=74 MESSIAH=74 HAND OF GOD=74 CROSS=74 GOSPEL=74 FINISHED=74 FORGAVE=74 FRUIT=74 SIMPLE=74 ELEMENT=74 TALKING=74 BETWEEN=74 HEAVENS=74 CLOUDS=74 CONNECT=74 (RELATED TO LAST DAYS... ENGLISH=74 NUCLEAR=74 ENERGY=74 RULER=74) JESUS TIME=121 REVELATION=121 EQUATIONS=121:)
Hi biblenumeric,

Welcome to our forum!

:welcome:

We have talked a lot about English Gematria on a few threads in this forum. It might help if you review those threads and add your comments there so we don't have too much repetition. The main thread is called, appropriately enough, English Gematria (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=686). That is probably the best place to start because I present some statistical analysis and explanations about why I don't believe that English Gematria is meaningful. I also had an in-depth discussion with William Downie (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=787) who is very intelligent and has done some very impressive work with English Gematria. Click his name to read that thread.

And just yesterday a new member Ed J just started another thread also called English Gematria (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1212). I think it would be a good idea to consolidate our discussion to a single thread.

Again, welcome to our forum!

Richard

[biblenumeric]

INTHEBEGINNINGGOD 17 LETTER POSITION POINT 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10+11+12+13+14+15+16+17=153 JOHN 21:11 THE 153 FISH (15TH LETTER G=7 16 LETTER O=15 17 LETTER D=4 =74 JESUS NUMERIC PROOF=153 THE GOLDEN RATIO=153 GOD SET IN ORDER=153 (IT IS WHAT IT IS) YES THE HEBREW IS THE FOUNDATION, ALSO GREEK AND OTHER LANGUAGES... YOUR WORK IS GREAT... THIS IS A GREAT WEBSITE...:)

[Richard Amiel McGough]

INTHEBEGINNINGGOD 17 LETTER POSITION POINT 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10+11+12+13+14+15+16+17=153 JOHN 21:11 THE 153 FISH (15TH LETTER G=7 16 LETTER O=15 17 LETTER D=4 =74 JESUS NUMERIC PROOF=153 THE GOLDEN RATIO=153 GOD SET IN ORDER=153 (IT IS WHAT IT IS) YES THE HEBREW IS THE FOUNDATION, ALSO GREEK AND OTHER LANGUAGES... YOUR WORK IS GREAT... THIS IS A GREAT WEBSITE...:)
Hey there biblenumeric,

Nice avatar you have there! Indeed, the heavens declare the glory of God!

Thanks for the good words about my site. I hope it helps you in your studies of God's most excellent Word.

As for your collection of words and numbers - why do you think it is proof? The reason this is hard for me to understand is that there are many thousands of words and phrases that sum to 153. This means that we can just pick out the ones that seem "meaningful" and ignore the rest. This doesn't prove anything to me. The situation is different with the Hebrew and Greek for two imporant reasons. First, they are the original languages in which God inspired the Scriptures. There are many different English translations. For example, Bill Downie believes that God inspired the specific words used in the NIV. We discussed that a lot in the thread I linked to above. But the NIV has one less "s" in Genesis 1.1 than the KJV. Which is correct? And why? The numerical values are completely different when we include the extra "s".

Second, in my study of Hebrew and Greek gematria I have found that God confirmed the meanings of the numbers by designing holographs which are integrated alphanumeric structures that are built on ascending multiples of the central number that is the value of the central word in the passage. One of the best examples is the Unity Holograph (http://biblewheel.com/GR/GR_Unity.asp): which is built on ascending multiples of 13 = Echad (One):

http://biblewheel.com/images/UnityHolograph.gif

Have you discovered any integrated structures like this using English gematria? If not, I don't see how we could be sure that the connections were designed by God.

Well, that's enough for the intro post!

Many blessings in Christ our Savior,

Richard

[biblenumeric]

THE TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL = 360 DEGREE 1/360 CIRCUMFERENCE OF A CIRCLE ALSO RICHARD DID YOU NOTICE IN MY LAST POST INTHEBEGINNINGGOD 17 LETTERS POSITION POINT 1+.............17=153 JOHN 21:11 JESUS AND THE 153 FISH. THIS IS JUST A SMALL SAMPLE OF WHAT I'V FOUND... (MOSTLY CORRELATIONS... WORDS MEANINGS HAPPENINGS NUMERIC CONNECTIONS.... (YES HEBREW, GREEK, AND ENGLISH... GOD IS THE AUTHOR=83 FAITHFUL=83 NUMERIC=83 GOD BLESS=83 ( I'LL SEND MORE WHEN I HAVE TIME):)

[biblenumeric]

INSPIRE=90 HOLY BIBLE=90 WORD FACT=90 REALITY=90 GENETIC CODE=90 YHVH CODE=90 DIVINE CODE=90 /90 DEGREE ANGLE (DEGREE ANGLE=83) (NUMERIC=83) (FAITHFUL=) YES YOU CAN FIND OTHER WORDS TO ADD 90 BUT TO KNOW GOD'S TRUTH... IN WORDS OR NUMBERS... PEOPLE NEED THE HOLY SPIRIT TO TEACH THEM. GOD'S SPIRIT BEARS WITNESS WITH OUR spirit. LAST DAYS ENGLISH MAIN LANGUAGE... MONEY POWER, WAR POWER ENGLISH SPEAKING POWER GREAT BRITIAN UNITED STATES FOURTH OF JULY 7/4 SPREAD THE GOSPEL=74 SIMPLE=74 ENGLISH=74 THREE SIXTY=360 (WHEN ENGLISH IS TRANSLATED RIGHT FROM HEBREW OR GREEK, THEN EVERYTHING LINES UP 100%) TRUE=64 FOCUS=64 ISRAEL=64 IS REAL=64

[derekkye]

THE TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL = 360 DEGREE 1/360 CIRCUMFERENCE OF A CIRCLE ALSO RICHARD DID YOU NOTICE IN MY LAST POST INTHEBEGINNINGGOD 17 LETTERS POSITION POINT 1+.............17=153 JOHN 21:11 JESUS AND THE 153 FISH. THIS IS JUST A SMALL SAMPLE OF WHAT I'V FOUND... (MOSTLY CORRELATIONS... WORDS MEANINGS HAPPENINGS NUMERIC CONNECTIONS.... (YES HEBREW, GREEK, AND ENGLISH... GOD IS THE AUTHOR=83 FAITHFUL=83 NUMERIC=83 GOD BLESS=83 ( I'LL SEND MORE WHEN I HAVE TIME):)

IN = 23
THE = 33
BEGINNING = 81
GOD = 26

23 + 33 + 81 + 26 = 163, not 153 as you claim - addition error - no biggy

I for one believe there is merit to english gematria. I have this belief due to a vision of an english gematria table - it is slightly different than the a=1, b=2, etc that you normally see associated with english gematria

[biblenumeric]

THE POINT I MADE IS THE FIRST 17 LETTERS, AS NUMERIC POSITION POINT 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10+11+12+13+14+15+16+17=153 RELATING JOHN 21:11 THE 153 FISH NUMERIC PROOF=153 THE GOLDEN RATIO=153 (AS TO THE FIRST 17 LETTERS IN THE BIBLE) I WAS NOT TOTALING THE SUM OF THE FIRST 4 WORDS. IN THE BEGINNING GOD - BUT THERE IS A CONNECTION 153 + 163=316 = JOHN 3:16:):)

[biblenumeric]

BIBLE STRUCTURE - ENGLISH INTHEBEGINNINGGODCREATEDTHEHEAVENSANDTHEEARTH =10 WORDS - 45 LETTERS - TOTAL= 430 PLAN=43 BOOK=43 SAW=43 WAS=43 ACTS=43 DOES=43 BECOME=43 ANOTHER CORRELATION - NUMBER 43 FIRST VERSE TO LAST CHAPTER IN BIBLE CH. 22 REVELATION HAS 21 VERSES 22+21=43 ANOTHER CORRELATION FIRST LETTER IN THE BIBLE IS I=9 LAST LETTER IN THE BIBLE IS N=14 REDUCE TO SUM =5 (FIRST 9 LAST 5) PROCESS=95 YES FIRST WORD (IN) CORRELATION FIRST LETTER I LAST LETTER N (IN) ALSO CORRELATION WITH JOHN 1:1 (IN) IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD THE FIRST THING GOD (CREATED=56 LIGHT=56) ALSO CORRELATING THE MEANING WHAT GOD DID... THREE=56 (FATHER SON SPIRIT) IN THE=56 PAST=56 BY THE (WILL=56) TERM=56 RULE=56 ALL CORRELATING TO WHAT GOD DID... (THIS IS REALITY) WHEN ENGLISH IS TRANSLATED CORRECT FROM HEBREW AND GREEK... YOU WILL GET PERFECT CORRELATION... MODERN ENGLISH=143 TRANSLATION=143:)

[biblenumeric]

JESUS SAID, SEEK AND FIND.... (ALL FOR THE GLORY OF JESUS CHRIST) MOST IMPORTANT IS OUR (SALVATION, GRACE/FAITH) THANK YOU JESUS! (THE JOY OF THE LORD IS OUR STRENGTH!!! )

[derekkye]

THE POINT I MADE IS THE FIRST 17 LETTERS, AS NUMERIC POSITION POINT 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10+11+12+13+14+15+16+17=153 RELATING JOHN 21:11 THE 153 FISH NUMERIC PROOF=153 THE GOLDEN RATIO=153 (AS TO THE FIRST 17 LETTERS IN THE BIBLE) I WAS NOT TOTALING THE SUM OF THE FIRST 4 WORDS. IN THE BEGINNING GOD - BUT THERE IS A CONNECTION 153 + 163=316 = JOHN 3:16:):)

Sorry about that biblenumeric.

Did you know that there are 17 occurences of the letter Q in Genesis (KJV), and that Q is the seventeenth letter of the alphabet (Q=17) giving english gematria instant credibility!

[biblenumeric]

Sorry about that biblenumeric.

Did you know that there are 17 occurences of the letter Q in Genesis (KJV), and that Q is the seventeenth letter of the alphabet (Q=17) giving english gematria instant credibility!

NO PROBLEM... DEREK, COULD YOU LIST THE 17 OCCURENCES? :)

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Sorry about that biblenumeric.

Did you know that there are 17 occurences of the letter Q in Genesis (KJV), and that Q is the seventeenth letter of the alphabet (Q=17) giving english gematria instant credibility!
Could you explain how this single coincidence gives "instant credibility" to English Gematria? There are a number of problems I have with that idea.

1) This is not a general pattern for the letters of the alphabet. It works only for q - and that's just one out of 26 letters ( 3% ).

2) I checked the the number of occurrences of the letter q in Genesis in a few English versions:

17 KJV
29 New KJV
35 NAS
37 NIV

The "17" pattern is found only in the KJV so it appears you are really saying that this single coincidence gives "instant credibility" to two ideas: a) English Gematria is inspired and b) the English KJV translation is inspired. To me, it seems impossible to justify those two HUGE conclusions from a single coincidence about the number of occurrences of a single letter in Genesis.

Call me skeptical ... that's what it takes to keep the mind clean. It is the only way to worship the Truth.

Richard

PS: It also appears to contradict your rejection of the KJV which includes Paul's letters. Or are you saying that the KJV translation of Genesis is inspired, but that the Pauline letters found in the same version are false?

[biblenumeric]

BIBLE WHEEL=83 FAITHFUL=83 NUMERIC=83 AUTHOR=83 ALSO I FOUND THIS INTERESTING = PSALM 8 V 3 WHEN I CONSIDER YOUR HEAVENS, THE WORK OF YOUR FINGERS, THE MOON AND THE STARS, WHICH YOU HAVE ORDAINED; (I LOVE TO DO CHAPTER AND VERSE STUDIES... CORRELATING THE NUMBERS... THE HOLY SPIRIT IS OUR TEACHER... WE WILL LEARN FOREVER... (DEEPER IN GOD, HEAVEN)

[Richard Amiel McGough]

BIBLE WHEEL=83 FAITHFUL=83 NUMERIC=83 AUTHOR=83 ALSO I FOUND THIS INTERESTING = PSALM 8 V 3 WHEN I CONSIDER YOUR HEAVENS, THE WORK OF YOUR FINGERS, THE MOON AND THE STARS, WHICH YOU HAVE ORDAINED; (I LOVE TO DO CHAPTER AND VERSE STUDIES... CORRELATING THE NUMBERS... THE HOLY SPIRIT IS OUR TEACHER... WE WILL LEARN FOREVER... (DEEPER IN GOD, HEAVEN)
I agree that the book, chapter and verse numbers show signs of design. There is no end to it! I just don't see any significance in English Gematria because I have never seen any confirmation of the word lists.

That's the real issue - any language can be mapped onto numbers, and there will always be coincidences that seem significant. It doesn't matter what number pattern you use, a = 6, b = 12, or whatever, we will always find "connections" that appear significant. So without any structures like the holographs to confirm the meaning of the numbers, I don't see how we could ever distinguish between chance and design.

That's the real question. How do we distinguish between chance and design?

BTW - all caps is a pain to read. It would help a lot of you typed in normal cases.

Many blessings in Christ our Lord!

Richard

[biblenumeric]

I agree that the book, chapter and verse numbers show signs of design. There is no end to it! I just don't see any significance in English Gematria because I have never seen any confirmation of the word lists.

That's the real issue - any language can be mapped onto numbers, and there will always be coincidences that seem significant. It doesn't matter what number pattern you use, a = 6, b = 12, or whatever, we will always find "connections" that appear significant. So without any structures like the holographs to confirm the meaning of the numbers, I don't see how we could ever distinguish between chance and design.

That's the real question. How do we distinguish between chance and design?

BTW - all caps is a pain to read. It would help a lot of you typed in normal cases.

Many blessings in Christ our Lord!

Richard

(structure) The tree of the knowledge of good and evil =360 (Perfect Circle)

[biblenumeric]

Words and numbers in context, confirm themselves. Holy Bible=90 Word Fact=90 Reality=90 Hand of God=74 Jesus=74 Messiah=74 Cross=74 Gospel=74 Finished=74 English=74 Number73 Count=73 Perfect=73 (Jesus of Nazareth=188 Shroud of Turin=188) Jesus Time=121 Revelation=121 Equations=121 (Informations=153 God set in order=153 Purpose + Plan=153)

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Words and numbers in context, confirm themselves. Holy Bible=90 Word Fact=90 Reality=90 Hand of God=74 Jesus=74 Messiah=74 Cross=74 Gospel=74 Finished=74 English=74 Number73 Count=73 Perfect=73 (Jesus of Nazareth=188 Shroud of Turin=188) Jesus Time=121 Revelation=121 Equations=121 (Informations=153 God set in order=153 Purpose + Plan=153)
But what is the context? There are thousands upon thousand of words with the same numeric values. We would find seemingly meaningful coincidences no matter what numbers we assign to the letters. For example, we could have a = 33, b = 16, c = 24 etc, and we would find links that seemed meaningful if we ignored all the other meaningless links. That's why a mere list of words does not seem convincing to me.

And the problem is exacerbated by the nature of English Gematria which uses only the place values. This compresses all the words into a very narrow range. For example, I listed 779 words with the value of 74 by processing an English dictionary. Most of them had no meaningful connection with Jesus or Gospel or Cross. The problem is that most of the information is compressed and lost when we convert the words to the sum of their ordinal values.

PS: Thanks for writing in normal case. It's much more readable. :thumb:

[derekkye]

Could you explain how this single coincidence gives "instant credibility" to English Gematria? There are a number of problems I have with that idea.

1) This is not a general pattern for the letters of the alphabet. It works only for q - and that's just one out of 26 letters ( 3% ).

2) I checked the the number of occurrences of the letter q in Genesis in a few English versions:

17 KJV
29 New KJV
35 NAS
37 NIV

The "17" pattern is found only in the KJV so it appears you are really saying that this single coincidence gives "instant credibility" to two ideas: a) English Gematria is inspired and b) the English KJV translation is inspired. To me, it seems impossible to justify those two HUGE conclusions from a single coincidence about the number of occurrences of a single letter in Genesis.

Call me skeptical ... that's what it takes to keep the mind clean. It is the only way to worship the Truth.

Richard

PS: It also appears to contradict your rejection of the KJV which includes Paul's letters. Or are you saying that the KJV translation of Genesis is inspired, but that the Pauline letters found in the same version are false?

God is worshipped in truth, and in spirit. To worship Him in truth is to keep the truth NO MATTER WHAT.

So you believe there are coincidences in God's word eh? I'll have to remember that.

I too am skeptical - very skeptical.

I don't reject the KJV bible - I reject certain people of the bible - namely those referred to in revelation 2:2 - to me that includes Paul, Peter, and others

[Richard Amiel McGough]

God is worshipped in truth, and in spirit. To worship Him in truth is to keep the truth NO MATTER WHAT.

Amen to that! We are in perfect agreement here.



I don't reject the KJV bible - I reject certain people of the bible - namely those referred to in revelation 2:2 - to me that includes Paul, Peter, and others
If you reject the writings of Paul, then doesn't that mean that you reject that part of the KJV Bible?

So do you believe that God inspired part of the KJV, but not all of it? That maketh not a lot of sense to me.

[derekkye]

So do you believe that God inspired part of the KJV, but not all of it? That maketh not a lot of sense to me.


Does it make sense to you at all that God would have an example or examples in the bible of such people referred to in Revelation 2:2? It makes sense to me - perfect sense. God warns in Ezekiel against prophets who say the burden of the word of the Lord, and we do have examples of such prophets in the bible.

I'm glad you now agree with me on the lying part.

[derekkye]

NO PROBLEM... DEREK, COULD YOU LIST THE 17 OCCURENCES? :)

Sure, in Genesis the q words are:

9:5 - require (3 times)
15:16 - iniquity
18:6 - quickly
19:4 - quarter
19:15 - iniquity
24:57 - enquire
25:22 - enquire
27:3 - quiver
27:20 - quickly
31:15 - quite
31:39 - require
42:22 - required
43:9 - require
44:16 - iniquity
50:15 - requite

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Does it make sense to you at all that God would have an example or examples in the bible of such people referred to in Revelation 2:2? It makes sense to me - perfect sense. God warns in Ezekiel against prophets who say the burden of the word of the Lord, and we do have examples of such prophets in the bible.

Yes, it makes perfect sense that God would present examples of folks like that, as He did throughout the OT with wicked folks like Jezebel and Ahab and Jeroboam the son of Nebat.

But it makes no sense at all that He would deceive us by including whole books written by a wicked person and go on to support that wicked writer by witnesses from other books such as Acts and 2 Peter that declare Paul to be a genuine man of God.



I'm glad you now agree with me on the lying part.
What lying part? The only thing I agreed to was your statement that "God is worshipped in truth, and in spirit. To worship Him in truth is to keep the truth NO MATTER WHAT. "

[derekkye]

What lying part? The only thing I agreed to was your statement that "God is worshipped in truth, and in spirit. To worship Him in truth is to keep the truth NO MATTER WHAT. "


You might recall the scenario of the dismembering madman - it seems in that scenario you would lie. Perhaps you reconsidered, and now agree with the context of NO MATTER WHAT.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

You might recall the scenario of the dismembering madman - it seems in that scenario you would lie. Perhaps you reconsidered, and now agree with the context of NO MATTER WHAT.
I didn't realize you were talking about that conversation.

I don't agree with you about that. I agree with the statement that "To worship Him in truth is to keep the truth NO MATTER WHAT" - but that does not mean that we cast the pearls of truth before the swine (madman). God has living values much higher than mechanically "speaking truth" to those who reject truth. God is not pleased with simplistic robotic rule keeping like "never tell a lie." He demands something much greater from us, which is to respond with integrity of living in God's Truth in every situation. And it is my contention that some of those situations could involve something that is technically a "lie" because it serves the purpose of God which is focused on LIFE rather than legalistic rule-keeping - but that's a discussion for the other thread.

:focus:

Richard

[derekkye]

"To worship Him in truth is to keep the truth NO MATTER WHAT" - but that does not mean that we cast the pearls of truth before the swine (madman).


Not disclosing the truth, and uttering a lie are two different things. Uttering a lie is not in keeping with NO MATTER WHAT. To say you agree with: "To worship Him in truth is to keep the truth NO MATTER WHAT", and then saying there are situations that justify a lie seem contradictory.

[derekkye]

But it makes no sense at all that He would deceive us by including whole books written by a wicked person and go on to support that wicked writer by witnesses from other books such as Acts and 2 Peter that declare Paul to be a genuine man of God.


Who said the entire bible is the word of God? Surely it is a book composed of books, but I don't remember reading anywhere that the whole bible is God's word? I rightfully assumed when I came to the bible (as an adult) that the entire bible is God's word. Coming to know God, and His word has since changed my mind. I can almost imagine God saying something like "Those who know me will know My word." The devil's word is also in the bible as far as I'm cincerned - I don't take that as deception by God.

[biblenumeric]

But what is the context? There are thousands upon thousand of words with the same numeric values. We would find seemingly meaningful coincidences no matter what numbers we assign to the letters. For example, we could have a = 33, b = 16, c = 24 etc, and we would find links that seemed meaningful if we ignored all the other meaningless links. That's why a mere list of words does not seem convincing to me.

And the problem is exacerbated by the nature of English Gematria which uses only the place values. This compresses all the words into a very narrow range. For example, I listed 779 words with the value of 74 by processing an English dictionary. Most of them had no meaningful connection with Jesus or Gospel or Cross. The problem is that most of the information is compressed and lost when we convert the words to the sum of their ordinal values.

PS: Thanks for writing in normal case. It's much more readable. :thumb:
I always start with the words (there meaning in context) Example Holy Bible=90 Word Fact=90 know=63 Divine=63 Meaning=63 also you get the same sum... Holy Bible=9 Word Fact=9 Know=9 Divine=9 Meaning=9 (When i do Bible Numerics, I start in Words... In Ch. and V context and then i correlate, always in context!:)

[Richard Amiel McGough]

But what is the context? There are thousands upon thousand of words with the same numeric values. We would find seemingly meaningful coincidences no matter what numbers we assign to the letters. For example, we could have a = 33, b = 16, c = 24 etc, and we would find links that seemed meaningful if we ignored all the other meaningless links. That's why a mere list of words does not seem convincing to me.
I always start with the words (there meaning in context) Example Holy Bible=90 Word Fact=90 know=63 Divine=63 Meaning=63 also you get the same sum... Holy Bible=9 Word Fact=9 Know=9 Divine=9 Meaning=9 (When i do Bible Numerics, I start in Words... In Ch. and V context and then i correlate, always in context!:)
But what about the fact that any arbitrary system of numerical values will produce lots of seemingly significant coincidences? How do you discern between chance and design?

[derekkye]

The hebrew "letters" are numbered 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100, 200, 300, 400 from aleph to tav

If we number the "letters" backwards 400, 300, 200, 100, 90, 80, 70, 60, 50, 40, 30, 20, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 the following observation is made:

Israel = 465 = T(30) - the outside of a T(30) triangle contains 87 dots if you will. All the other dots are contained within these 87 outside dots. Interesting because twelve = 87 in English Gematria - this example shows how Israel is contained with 12;

-just noticed this is reply #30 - irony

[biblenumeric]

But what about the fact that any arbitrary system of numerical values will produce lots of seemingly significant coincidences? How do you discern between chance and design?

I go by natural order=60 (Holy=60 word=60 pure=60) a=1 b=2 c=3 d=4 e=5 f=6 g=7 h=8 i=9 j=10 k=11 l=12 m=13 n=14 o=15 p=16 q=17 r=18 s=19 t=20 u=21 v=22 w=23 x=24 y=25 z=26 God=26 (YHVH Yod Hey Vav Hey = 26) GOD'S Design. I use this order 100% of the time, When i found this out, the first thing i tested was God=26 A to Z and Jesus=74 26=74=100% Then Holy Bible=90 Word Fact=90 Reality=90 Yes i always go by the words in context... the first thing God Created=56 Light=56 (God-Father Son Spirit-Three=56 In the=56 Past=56 (beginning before Time) Rule=56 Term=56 (The Words, Their Meanings, In Order. Then i found this, number=73 count=73 perfect=73, Sequence- you have a number, then you count the number, then you have the number=73 all in sequence. I have found this to be 100% yes there are words that will have the same number, I stay in context related in topic. (In translating from hebrew and greek into( modern english=143 translation=143) the person has to be led by The Holy Spirit, to use and to correct the words... Example Genesis 1:2 different words are used- moving, brooding, hovering, I found Hovering to be the correct word. Hovering=98 correlating the first letter in gen.1 (I=9) last letter gen.1:1 (H=8) also by correlating The Last Word JESUS Spoke in Revelation 22:21 (Quickly=98) Just like in Hebrew or Greek, everything in proper translation will line up, As you have shown in the Great Work You Have Done... God Bless~ Richard

[Richard Amiel McGough]

The hebrew "letters" are numbered 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100, 200, 300, 400 from aleph to tav

If we number the "letters" backwards 400, 300, 200, 100, 90, 80, 70, 60, 50, 40, 30, 20, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 the following observation is made:

Israel = 465 = T(30) - the outside of a T(30) triangle contains 87 dots if you will. All the other dots are contained within these 87 outside dots. Interesting because twelve = 87 in English Gematria - this example shows how Israel is contained with 12;

-just noticed this is reply #30 - irony
There is a tradition in the Jewish understanding of the alphabet called "Atbash" that replaces the first (Aleph) with the last (Tav), the second (Bet) with the second to last (Shin) and so forth. Hence the name Atbash. This is the same as reading it "backwards" like you suggest. They seem to think there is some deep meaning in this, and they very well may be correct! :)

And I will admit that there could be significance to English Gematria (as a matter of principle) but I don't think it would ever be discovered by merely noting coincidental word associations and random patterns. And that's the primary reason I don't think it is worth pursuing. The evidence of the divine design of the Greek and Hebrew is overwhelming and extremely cogent, but folks still can't get it. How much less if we confuse the playing field with random associations? I have been deeply moved by the reality of the design of the Greek and Hebrew, and I don't want that witness destroyed by goofing around with English Gematria in an unprincipled fashion.

Hope that helps you understand my position.

All the best,

Richard

[CWH]

There is a tradition in the Jewish understanding of the alphabet called "Atbash" that replaces the first (Aleph) with the last (Tav), the second (Bet) with the second to last (Shin) and so forth. Hence the name Atbash. This is the same as reading it "backwards" like you suggest. They seem to think there is some deep meaning in this, and they very well may be correct! :)

And I will admit that there could be significance to English Gematria (as a matter of principle) but I don't think it would ever be discovered by merely noting coincidental word associations and random patterns. And that's the primary reason I don't think it is worth pursuing. The evidence of the divine design of the Greek and Hebrew is overwhelming and extremely cogent, but folks still can't get it. How much less if we confuse the playing field with random associations? I have been deeply moved by the reality of the design of the Greek and Hebrew, and I don't want that witness destroyed by goofing around with English Gematria in an unprincipled fashion.
Hope that helps you understand my position.

All the best,

Richard

I agree with Richard on these (in bold). But my main concern is that we should not be biased, why just English Gematria? How about other major languages of the world such as Spanish, French, Dutch, Portuguese, Arabic, Chinese. Malay, Russian Gematrias. If the Gematrias are accurate and God inspired, then I would expect all these languages to speak the same thing. If Holy Bible=90 Word Fact=90 know=63 Divine=63 Meaning=63, then all the major languages would also have the same Gematria numbers; if not, then I don't think gematria in other languages should be pursued. It's a waste of time and effort. Currently, I don't see that consistancy among the major languages having the same Gematria numbers.

It is not that I don't believe in Gematria, but that it must be based on only one language which is either Greek or Hebrew or Aramaic. I personally think Gematria should only be based on the Hebrew or the Aramaic language. But this present some problems as most of the scriptures are translated from the old Greek language. Aramaic seems to be the best language to use in the interpretation of Gematria as it was the language used in Jesus's time.

Many Blesssings.

[derekkye]

Take note of the middle hebrew word in Genesis 1:1 - AlephTav

It has a hebrew gematria sum of 401, and an Atbash sum of 401. In words it translates something like this: it is the same forward and backward in the middle;

[biblenumeric]

I agree with Richard on these (in bold). But my main concern is that we should not be biased, why just English Gematria? How about other major languages of the world such as Spanish, French, Dutch, Portuguese, Arabic, Chinese. Malay, Russian Gematrias. If the Gematrias are accurate and God inspired, then I would expect all these languages to speak the same thing. If Holy Bible=90 Word Fact=90 know=63 Divine=63 Meaning=63, then all the major languages would also have the same Gematria numbers; if not, then I don't think gematria in other languages should be pursued. It's a waste of time and effort. Currently, I don't see that consistancy among the major languages having the same Gematria numbers.

It is not that I don't believe in Gematria, but that it must be based on only one language which is either Greek or Hebrew or Aramaic. I personally think Gematria should only be based on the Hebrew or the Aramaic language. But this present some problems as most of the scriptures are translated from the old Greek language. Aramaic seems to be the best language to use in the interpretation of Gematria as it was the language used in Jesus's time.

Many Blesssings.

I never said English was the only language to use gematria. Yes we know hebrew, aramaic and greek are 100% true, in proper translation also english is self-evident=121 revelation=121 equations=121 first letter Gen.1:1 (I=9) God is=54=9 Love=54=9 There are 9 gifts of the Spirit and 9 fruits of the Spirit, Holy Bible=90 and has 9 letters I always stay in context, (it is what it is) I always go by the meaning of the words in context. English is the main language of the world... (Last Days Context) John 21:11 JESUS gave the answer. The 153 Fish. Number + Letter=153 Numeric Proof=153 The Golden Ratio=153 All in context for the last Days... Informations=153 Numeric Position Point- 1+...............17=153 In the beginning God (God 4th word G=7- 47 TIME=47 JESUS=74 Perfect Design - also Number=73 x Place=37 =2701 Hebrew Gematria=74 Gen.1:1 Total= 2701 Correlating the word NUMBER=73 (english) Correlating the word Place=37 (english) Reflecting Jesus=74 Time=47 Number=73 Place=37 ALSO (7 days in a week, 4 weeks in a month) This is Reality=90 - God the 4th word in Gen.1:1 Numbers the 4th book in the bible - 4 seasons 4 corners of the earth, and much more... English=74 Gospel=74 Great Britain - United States fourth of july 7/4 HAND OF GOD=74 Self-evident=121 Equations=121 100% (In Proper) Modern English=143 Translation=143 (Just wanted to share some of what I've learned) God Bless~

[Ed J]

I agree with Richard on these (in bold). But my main concern is that we should not be biased, why just English Gematria? How about other major languages of the world such as Spanish, French, Dutch, Portuguese, Arabic, Chinese. Malay, Russian Gematrias. If the Gematrias are accurate and God inspired, then I would expect all these languages to speak the same thing. If Holy Bible=90 Word Fact=90 know=63 Divine=63 Meaning=63, then all the major languages would also have the same Gematria numbers; if not, then I don't think gematria in other languages should be pursued. It's a waste of time and effort. Currently, I don't see that consistancy among the major languages having the same Gematria numbers.

It is not that I don't believe in Gematria, but that it must be based on only one language which is either Greek or Hebrew or Aramaic. I personally think Gematria should only be based on the Hebrew or the Aramaic language. But this present some problems as most of the scriptures are translated from the old Greek language. Aramaic seems to be the best language to use in the interpretation of Gematria as it was the language used in Jesus's time.

Many Blesssings.


Hi Cheow,

Perhaps you haven't yet took the time to read the thread that I started (English Gematria) with Richard's blessings. He said...



Hey there Ed,

I think it is good for us to have a thread devoted to your work because you have written a book on the topic and we should focus on what you have written. I just wanted you to be aware of the previous conversations and to help you get a bit of an orientation about how I understand English Gematria so I don't have to repeat myself. (Time is precious!)

Many blessings to you my friend,

Richard




Over the coarse of time and as people comment on that thread, I will indeed prove to you and all the people that there is indeed merrit to English Gematria and how it interfaces with the AKJV Bible.

Given freely to all,
Ed J
http://holycitybiblecode.org

[CWH]

Hi Ed J,

I understand what Richard is saying. This topic on Gematria was discussed before in other previous threads before you came into this forum.

It was discussed that English may not be a suitable language for Gematria because it is a relative modern language which was not even in existence since the time of the Old Testament. English is in fact is a "mongrel" language with words derived from Greek, Latin, and other languages. The best languages to be used in Gematria should be the ancient languages in existence since the time of the Old Testament and they are Hebrew, Greek, Latin, Aramaic. Using many languages such as English, Spanish, Dutch, French etc. for Gematria would only contribute to more confusion in numerology; I would rather that we stick to one language for the Gematria and the best language to use for Gematria in my opinion is Hebrew or Aramaic.

English no doubt is a major language of the world but it does not mean it is suitable for Gematria. How about Chinese i.e. Mandarin which is the world's most spoken language (almost a billion people speak or understand Mandarin). Mandarin is an ancient language still in use today but it is totally not suitable for Gematria because it don't have alphabets.

Many Blessings to you.

[derekkye]

There is no language or tongue that God's word can't be expressed in. Gematria, if relevant in any language, will be relevant across all languages. My problem is different versions of God's word in the same language. How many english versions of the bible were there only 50 years ago? During these end days many different word twisting english bibles exist - none of which were put into translation by the decree of a leader of a nation.

[derekkye]

The KJV words that begin with q:

1.quails
2.quake, quaked, quaking
3.quantity
4.quarrel
5.quarries
6.quarter, quarters
7.quaternions
8.Quartus
9.queen, queens
10.quench, Quench, quenched, Quenched
11.question, questioned, questioning, questions
12.quick, quicken, Quicken, quickened, quickeneth, quickening, quickly
13.quicksands
14.quiet, quieted, quieteth, quietly, quietness
15.quit
16.quite
17.quiver, quivered

hmm...17 categories involving the letter q

[Richard Amiel McGough]

The KJV words that begin with q:

1.quails
2.quake, quaked, quaking
3.quantity
4.quarrel
5.quarries
6.quarter, quarters
7.quaternions
8.Quartus
9.queen, queens
10.quench, Quench, quenched, Quenched
11.question, questioned, questioning, questions
12.quick, quicken, Quicken, quickened, quickeneth, quickening, quickly
13.quicksands
14.quiet, quieted, quieteth, quietly, quietness
15.quit
16.quite
17.quiver, quivered

hmm...17 categories involving the letter q

What do you think this means? Are you suggesting that God designed the Bible to emphasize the position of Q in the English alphabet? That seems rather odd given that the words "quaternion" and "quicksands" appear only in Acts which contains the testimony of Paul's conversion and these words from the Lord Jesus Christ:
Acts 26:12 Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests, 13 At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me. 14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. 16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; 17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, 18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Are you saying that God designed the book of Acts to emphasize the position of the letter Q? What then about it's testimony of the conversion of the Apostle Paul?

And we have the same problem with the name Quartus which appears only in the book of Romans which you reject as written by a "false apostle." So again, are you saying that God designed the lying writings of Paul to emphasize the position of the letter Q in the English alphabet?

Peace,

Richard

[Ed J]

Hey there biblenumeric,

Nice avatar you have there! Indeed, the heavens declare the glory of God!

Thanks for the good words about my site. I hope it helps you in your studies of God's most excellent Word.

As for your collection of words and numbers - why do you think it is proof? The reason this is hard for me to understand is that there are many thousands of words and phrases that sum to 153. This means that we can just pick out the ones that seem "meaningful" and ignore the rest. This doesn't prove anything to me. The situation is different with the Hebrew and Greek for two imporant reasons. First, they are the original languages in which God inspired the Scriptures. There are many different English translations. For example, Bill Downie believes that God inspired the specific words used in the NIV. We discussed that a lot in the thread I linked to above. But the NIV has one less "s" in Genesis 1.1 than the KJV. Which is correct? And why? The numerical values are completely different when we include the extra "s".

Second, in my study of Hebrew and Greek gematria I have found that God confirmed the meanings of the numbers by designing holographs which are integrated alphanumeric structures that are built on ascending multiples of the central number that is the value of the central word in the passage. One of the best examples is the Unity Holograph (http://biblewheel.com/GR/GR_Unity.asp): which is built on ascending multiples of 13 = Echad (One):

http://biblewheel.com/images/UnityHolograph.gif

Have you discovered any integrated structures like this using English gematria? If not, I don't see how we could be sure that the connections were designed by God.

Well, that's enough for the intro post!

Many blessings in Christ our Savior,

Richard


Hi Richard,

I checked out your Unity Holograph and it’s quite impressive just how anomalies that are out there helping to prove that GOD does indeed exist; just waiting for people like us to bring them to the attention of the public. I’ve noticed that further proof also exists through prime number counterparts. For example three numbers in your Unity Holograph are 2, 13 and 43. 2 is the 1st prime, 13 is the 6th prime and 43 is the 24th prime; added together (2+6+24=31) the total equals 31=לא(GOD the eternal existing one). Another main point: 'Tree of Life'=101; and 101 just happens to be the 26th prime, equal to יהוה=26 (GOD=26 in English)!

Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Hi Ed J,

I understand what Richard is saying. This topic on Gematria was discussed before in other previous threads before you came into this forum.

It was discussed that English may not be a suitable language for Gematria because it is a relative modern language which was not even in existence since the time of the Old Testament. English is in fact is a "mongrel" language with words derived from Greek, Latin, and other languages. The best languages to be used in Gematria should be the ancient languages in existence since the time of the Old Testament and they are Hebrew, Greek, Latin, Aramaic. Using many languages such as English, Spanish, Dutch, French etc. for Gematria would only contribute to more confusion in numerology; I would rather that we stick to one language for the Gematria and the best language to use for Gematria in my opinion is Hebrew or Aramaic.

English no doubt is a major language of the world but it does not mean it is suitable for Gematria. How about Chinese i.e. Mandarin which is the world's most spoken language (almost a billion people speak or understand Mandarin). Mandarin is an ancient language still in use today but it is totally not suitable for Gematria because it don't have alphabets.

Many Blessings to you.


Hi Cheow Wee Hock,

English is the official language of business, air traffic, science, computers, and medicine ect. It seems only appropriate then,
that the English-speaking countries are in the unique position of bringing the 'Word of GOD' to the entire world; as was Latin, Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew.

The promises God made to Abraham. He said that his seed would be as plenty as the…

1) 'Dust of the Earth'=170 (Gen. 3:16)
2) 'Stars of Heaven'=153 (Gen. 26:4)
3) 'Sand of the Sea'=117 (Gen. 32:12)

Everybody is looking for the lost (or dispersed) tribes of Israel; after the (10) Northern tribes separated from the (2) Southern tribes.
The Northern tribes (predominantly) moved where Greece is located. Finally for the most part the dispersed tribes moved to The U.S.A.
We as a nation consist of in part the 10 tribes of the children of Israel; bringing the blessings of Abraham (The word of GOD) to the entire world.

Hebrew was the first language used to bring God’s word to the world. After the captivity (in Babylon) God used the Aramaic. After that God used the Greek. Now God uses the English.

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[CWH]

Hi Cheow Wee Hock,

English is the official language of business, air traffic, science, computers, and medicine ect. It seems only appropriate then,
that the English-speaking countries are in the unique position of bringing the “Word of GOD” to the entire world; as was Latin, Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew.

The promises God made to Abraham. He said that his seed would be as plenty as the…

1) “Dust of the Earth”=170 (Gen. 3:16)
2) “Stars of Heaven”=153 (Gen. 26:4)
3) “Sand of the Sea”=117 (Gen. 32:12)

Everybody is looking for the lost (or dispersed) tribes of Israel; after the (10) Northern tribes separated from the (2) Southern tribes.
The Northern tribes (predominantly) moved where Greece is located. Finally for the most part the dispersed tribes moved to The U.S.A.
We as a nation consist of in part the 10 tribes of the children of Israel; bringing the blessings of Abraham (The word of GOD) to the entire world.

Hebrew was the first language used to bring God’s word to the world. After the captivity (in Babylon) God used the Aramaic. After that God used the Greek. Now God uses the English.

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Well, if that is the case in regard to English being the official language of business, air traffic, science, computers, and medicine ect. It seems only appropriate then,
that the English-speaking countries are in the unique position of bringing the “Word of GOD” to the entire world; I could also say that Chinese i.e. Mandarin, being one of the oldest ancient language still in use today and with the most numbers of speakers in the world (nearly a billion) is also appropriate to bring the Word of God to the entire World. However, Chinese due to the nature of the Chinese words which are pictorial/ideogram mixed with some phonetics is not suitable for Gematria. How to equate “Dust of the Earth”=170, “Stars of Heaven”=153, “Sand of the Sea”=117 in Chinese? I would be most interested to know if someone managed to come out with a Chinese Gematria.

How about French, the official language of post offices and International Red Cross and perhaps fashion of the entire world? Can French also be used to spread the Word of God to the entire world?

Many Blessings.

[Ed J]

Well, if that is the case in regard to English being the official language of business, air traffic, science, computers, and medicine ect. It seems only appropriate then,
that the English-speaking countries are in the unique position of bringing the 'Word of GOD' to the entire world; I could also say that Chinese i.e. Mandarin, being one of the oldest ancient language still in use today and with the most numbers of speakers in the world (nearly a billion) is also appropriate to bring the Word of God to the entire World. However, Chinese due to the nature of the Chinese words which are pictorial/ideogram mixed with some phonetics is not suitable for Gematria. How to equate 'Dust of the Earth'=170, 'Stars of Heaven'=153, 'Sand of the Sea'=117 in Chinese? I would be most interested to know if someone managed to come out with a Chinese Gematria.

How about French, the official language of post offices and International Red Cross and perhaps fashion of the entire world? Can French also be used to spread the Word of God to the entire world?

Many Blessings.


The Chinese too are bringing the "Word of God" to the World. There are many Chinese converts to Christianity; as a matter of fact the Chinese are leading the way in
evangelizing the people in the 10 / 40 window; Hindus, Muslims and Buddhists predominately live there. The 10 / 40 window extends from China to Israel.

Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org