To lie or not to lie

[CWH]

Hi,

This question to lie or not to lie has been in contention in me all the time. Don't be mistaken, it is not that I like to lie but is that sometimes we are forced into this contention. Of course, let's face it, everyone do lie at least a few times in our lives. We all know that it is not right to lie. But I am thinking, there are good lie, bad lie and neutral lie.

A lie is deemed bad if it gets a good person into trouble, But what if one lies in order to get the bad guys into trouble? It is also bad if the lie gets a bad person out of trouble.

A lie is deemed good if one lies to prevent someone who is good from getting into trouble. But is it good to lie to get a bad person out of trouble so that it gives the bad person a chance to repent?

What if one lies under duress? such as "if you tell the truth, I will kill you"?

A neutral lie is a lie that is good or bad that do not get anyone into trouble such as in a joke or to prevent oneself from getting into trouble without causing harm to another human being.

There are some verses in the BIble that seem to suggest it may be good to do a good lie:

1. the parable of the good tax collector who gives discount to the poor who cannot afford to pay the full taxes and also to create social network so that others will help him in return. (Luke 16 1:9)

2. Peter was told to deny the Lord 3 times. (Luke 22 54:62)

Anyone?

Many Blessings to all

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi,

This question to lie or not to lie has been in contention in me all the time. Don't be mistaken, it is not that I like to lie but is that sometimes we are forced into this contention. Of course, let's face it, everyone do lie at least a few times in our lives. We all know that it is not right to lie. But I am thinking, there are good lie, bad lie and neutral lie.

A lie is deemed bad if it gets a good person into trouble, But what if one lies in order to get the bad guys into trouble? It is also bad if the lie gets a bad person out of trouble.

A lie is deemed good if one lies to prevent someone who is good from getting into trouble. But is it good to lie to get a bad person out of trouble so that it gives the bad person a chance to repent?

What if one lies under duress? such as "if you tell the truth, I will kill you"?

A neutral lie is a lie that is good or bad that do not get anyone into trouble such as in a joke or to prevent oneself from getting into trouble without causing harm to another human being.

There are some verses in the BIble that seem to suggest it may be good to do a good lie:

1. the parable of the good tax collector who gives discount to the poor who cannot afford to pay the full taxes

2. Peter was told to deny the Lord 3 times. (Luke 22 54:62)

Anyone?

Many Blessings to all
Hey Cheow,

I think this is an important question. I have heard a number of Christian teachers state that it is "always wrong to lie under any circumstance." I think that is naive and wrong. Imagine that a murdering rapist has broken into your home and tied you up and you know that your daughter has hidden in a closet in the basement. Then he asks where your daughter is. Would God want you to "tell the truth" in this case? That seems absurd. A murdering rapist does not deserve to be told the truth because he would use it for evil. Thus, by failing to lie you would be serving evil, and that is against the will of God in any case.

But some folks would still say that you still should not lie, but merely refuse to answer. But then we just have to imagine that the murderer says that he will kill your wife (whom he also tied up) if you don't tell him where your daughter is. Now what do you do? If you are silent, your wife will be killed, and if you answer truthfully, then your daughter will be killed. The only God-honoring choice is to lie to the murderer. That serves the greatest good.

Of course, some folks will still insist that you should not lie, but rather pray and preach Jesus to the murderer. That may work sometimes, but in most cases it probably would result in the death of your wife because there is no reason to expect a hardened murderer who has rejected God all his life to suddenly convert just because you preached at him under threat of death.

Hope that helps,

Richard

PS: Where in the world did you get the idea that "Peter was told to deny the Lord 3 times"? I've never read that anywhere in the Bible. Jesus predicted what Peter would do - he certainly did not tell him to do it!

[CWH]

Hi Richard,


PS: Where in the world did you get the idea that "Peter was told to deny the Lord 3 times"? I've never read that anywhere in the Bible. Jesus predicted what Peter would do - he certainly did not tell him to do it!

OK, thanks, I may have misinterpreted the above verse. But the verse in Luke 22 54:62 seems to suggest so that Peter himself (lied) and denied the Lord 3 times.

54Then seizing him, they led him away and took him into the house of the high priest. Peter followed at a distance. 55But when they had kindled a fire in the middle of the courtyard and had sat down together, Peter sat down with them. 56A servant girl saw him seated there in the firelight. She looked closely at him and said, "This man was with him."
57But he denied it. "Woman, I don't know him," he said.

58A little later someone else saw him and said, "You also are one of them."
"Man, I am not!" Peter replied.

59About an hour later another asserted, "Certainly this fellow was with him, for he is a Galilean."

60Peter replied, "Man, I don't know what you're talking about!" Just as he was speaking, the rooster crowed. 61The Lord turned and looked straight at Peter. Then Peter remembered the word the Lord had spoken to him: "Before the rooster crows today, you will disown me three times." 62And he went outside and wept bitterly.


Many Blessings to you.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Richard,

OK, thanks, I may have misinterpreted the above verse. But the verse in Luke 22 54:62 seems to suggest so that Peter himself (lied) and denied the Lord 3 times.

54Then seizing him, they led him away and took him into the house of the high priest. Peter followed at a distance. 55But when they had kindled a fire in the middle of the courtyard and had sat down together, Peter sat down with them. 56A servant girl saw him seated there in the firelight. She looked closely at him and said, "This man was with him."
57But he denied it. "Woman, I don't know him," he said.

58A little later someone else saw him and said, "You also are one of them."
"Man, I am not!" Peter replied.

59About an hour later another asserted, "Certainly this fellow was with him, for he is a Galilean."

60Peter replied, "Man, I don't know what you're talking about!" Just as he was speaking, the rooster crowed. 61The Lord turned and looked straight at Peter. Then Peter remembered the word the Lord had spoken to him: "Before the rooster crows today, you will disown me three times." 62And he went outside and wept bitterly.

Many Blessings to you.
Hi Cheow,

I agree completely that Peter himself lied. And in that case I think it was clearly a sin because he denied knowing Christ. That is a lie that should be avoided in almost every situation because there is great power in our testimony of Christ, and He specifically warned that if we deny him he will deny us before the Father. But even in this case I can imagine situations where perhaps God would not desire that we answer truthfully. For example, suppose a madman said that he would trap 500 children in an orphanage and burn it to the ground if I did not deny Christ. Which would be more important to God - the lives of 500 children or my personal testimony for Christ? These are not simply questions, and I think the answer is found not in a hard and fast rule like "never lie" but in a much higher calling of serving God with our whole heart and soul and mind and strength. Simply "following a rule" is lazy man's way out. It is not nearly as demanding as seeking to know the true will of God in the complex world filled with confounding choices between "dark" and "darker."

Do you have a problem with the fact that an apostle of Christ lied? I don't have any problem with that at all. Indeed, it is exactly what I would expect because the apostles were NOTHING more than mere men that God chose to use for His purposes. They were not chosen by God because of they were better than the rest of us. There were mere humans, weak and prone to sin like every other human. Is this how you see the apostles?

Richard

[CWH]

Hi Richard,

In such a scenario, I would lied to deny Christ first so as to save the 500 children. After the children have been saved, I would pray to God for forgiveness and return back to Him. Under such a circumstance, what can one do? I believe God understands. I believe that goes for Peter as well when he denied the Lord 3 times. I think the principle is "Be Prudent and Do Good First".

Thanks for the insight and many blessings to you.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Richard,

In such a scenario, I would lied to deny Christ first so as to save the 500 children. After the children have been saved, I would pray to God for forgiveness and return back to Him. Under such a circumstance, what can one do? I believe God understands. I believe that goes for Peter as well when he denied the Lord 3 times. I think the principle is "Be Prudent and Do Good First".

Thanks for the insight and many blessings to you.
I don't think you would have had to ask for forgiveness because God knew that you never denied Him in your heart. On the contrary, you were serving Him and His Will as best you could to save the innocent children which are very precious in His eyes:


Mark 10:14 But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and said to them, "Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
As for Peter, he really did need to ask for forgiveness because he denied the Lord out of personal weakness and fear.

Many blessings my friend,

Richard

[CWH]

I don't think you would have had to ask for forgiveness because God knew that you never denied Him in your heart. On the contrary, you were serving Him and His Will as best you could to save the innocent children which are very precious in His eyes:


Mark 10:14 But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and said to them, "Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
As for Peter, he really did need to ask for forgiveness because he denied the Lord out of personal weakness and fear.

Many blessings my friend,

Richard

Well said, Richard! :thumb:

But human weakness is such that if you are under duress and fear for your life and the life of others, you would do whatever lies and evil you are forced to do first and then ask for forgiveness from God later. That was what Peter was facing at that time and if we are in Peter's shoes, we would probably do the same too.

I would also like to share that "Thou shall not lie" is not in the ten commandments at all. So I presume it is ok to tell a good lie but not so with a neutral lie. A neutral lie may look ok at face value but may indirectly affect someone seriously. A joking lie may be amusing and seems harmless to others but may be hurting to someone else. Anyway, the take home message is, "Never tell a bad lie!".

Many Blessings to all.

[CWH]

Hi,

I would like to share that the 1st lie in the world was created by the serpent who is symbolically Satan. The 2nd lie in the world was probably from Adam who was perhaps trying to put the blame on Eve for giving him the fruit to eat when actually he himself would like to eat the fruit also so as to gain wisdom of good and evil. (Both highlighted in bold)

Genesis 3

1Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

2And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

6And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

7And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

8And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

9And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

10And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

11And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

12And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

13And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.



Many blessings to all.

[derekkye]

the idea that there exists situations where a lie is justified is fallacy - if you don't want to answer a question you can reply - "no comment", or just say nothing - the father of lies is the devil, and every time you tell a lie it is the devil you are serving, and not God.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

the idea that there exists situations where a lie is justified is fallacy - if you don't want to answer a question you can reply - "no comment", or just say nothing - the father of lies is the devil, and every time you tell a lie it is the devil you are serving, and not God.
That's an interesting response. Thanks.

So how would you answer the madman that had you and your wife tied up, and said he would cut a limb from your wife each time you said "no comment" or failed to answer when he demanded to know the location of your daughter hidden in the basement?

Richard

[derekkye]

That's an interesting response. Thanks.

So how would you answer the madman that had you and your wife tied up, and said he would cut a limb from your wife each time you said "no comment" or failed to answer when he demanded to know the location of your daughter hidden in the basement?

Richard

I'd warn him that what he is doing is evil - I'd warn him from God. To be in that situation in the first place would mean that God sent evil your way. To get out of that situation would require deliverance from God. I would call on Him, but definately not lie.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I'd warn him that what he is doing is evil - I'd warn him from God. To be in that situation in the first place would mean that God sent evil your way. To get out of that situation would require deliverance from God. I would call on Him, but definately not lie.
Hummm ... I'm not so sure that God would be pleased with your decision, since you would be allowing His daughter to be slowly dismembered when in fact you could do something about it. To me, this indicates an inversion of Biblical values.

To see this clearly, we need only ask "What does the devil want?" and "What does God want?" The answer is clear:
John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
It is the devil that motivates the madman to murder. Therefore, in this situation it is the devil that wants you to tell the truth or refuse to answer, because in either case a Christian would be murdered.

Thus, the question you need to answer is this: Whose desire would be fulfilled if you chose not to lie in this hypothetical case?

Richard

[derekkye]

have you not heard that the Lord God hateth a lying tongue? hateth - trusting in the Lord God is not a vain thing - the devil would like to kill God forever, but that's not happening any more than that hypothetical madman dismembering that girl - it aint happening unless God allows it

so if a lie is okay I guess you are one who believes there exists situations where it's okay to break God's commandments - put another way if that madman told you to bow down to idols of stone or he would dismember your wife you would??? Daniel wouldn't do it!

who are you afraid of that you would lie? afraid of the devil? hah? be afraid very afraid of God as the devil is and refrain thy lips from ever uttering a lie -that would please God :)

[Richard Amiel McGough]

have you not heard that the Lord God hateth a lying tongue? hateth - trusting in the Lord God is not a vain thing - the devil would like to kill God forever, but that's not happening any more than that hypothetical madman dismembering that girl - it aint happening unless God allows it

so if a lie is okay I guess you are one who believes there exists situations where it's okay to break God's commandments - put another way if that madman told you to bow down to idols of stone or he would dismember your wife you would??? Daniel wouldn't do it!

who are you afraid of that you would lie? afraid of the devil? hah? be afraid very afraid of God as the devil is and refrain thy lips from ever uttering a lie -that would please God :)
I agree that Daniel would not bow to an idol under any circumstances. But the question of lying is different. As far as I know, there is no example of any man of God sacrificing his life to an evil man for the mere fact of "telling the truth" about something that does not involve the truth of God. The act of lying to defeat evil does not seem equivalent to bowing to an idol.

But I appreciate your strong stance. I will need to give this more thought.

Many blessings in Christ,

Richard