Regeneration [Archive] - Bibles, Wheels, and Brains Forum

CWH

08-17-2009, 06:50 PM

Richard Amiel McGough

08-17-2009, 07:46 PM

Hi,

Just trying to understand what regeneration is the Lord talking about. Some version identified regeneration as re-creation. I interpret as when the LOrd come and rule the world, there will be a new creation, for the old heaven and old earth is gone i.e. a new heaven and a new earth:

Revelation 21
1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Matthew 10
24And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

25When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

26But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

27Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?

28And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

29And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

30But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

God Blessings to al.
Hi Cheow!

Thanks for starting an excellent thread! :thumb: I think you have shared one of the strongest passages in which the plain meaning suggests a futurist interpretation.

I don't have a ready answer for a preterist understanding of this verse, so I very much look forward to discussing it with you.

My first observation is that the audience seems to shift from the 12 disciples in verse 28 to all believers in verse 29:

28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
At first glance, it seems that Christ is talking about the 12 disciples on 12 thrones in verse 28, and then in verse 29 he seems to be talking about all believers. Is this how you see it? If so, there is a big problem. Judas was one of the 12 disciples! He certainly won't be sitting on a throne.

So this makes me wonder if Christ is actually addressing all believers in both verses, in which case it would seem that the "12 thrones" are symbolic of something ... just like the "New Jerusalem" with its "12 foundations" is symbolic of the Church.

I very much look forward to exploring this more with you. Thanks again for an excellent thread.

Richard

Richard Amiel McGough

08-17-2009, 08:21 PM

Hi Cheow,

Thanks again for highlighting this very important verse. The Greek word translated as "regeneration" is paliggenesia (Strong's 3824). It literally means to be "born again" which is, of course, the essential message of the Gospel. It is used in only one other verse of the Bible:
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Note that Paul links salvation with the regeneration. This coheres with the "Big Picture" of what the Bible is really all about. It also coheres with Christ's teaching on this subject in John 3:
John 3:3-5 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
The "born again" here is similar to the word "regeneration" discussed above. Here we see Christ saying that without being "born again" no one can see the "Kingdom", which I believe is a reference to the New Jerusalem (the Church) just as Paul spoke of salvation as being a "regeneration".

I think we also see a true key to many misunderstandings about prophecy. When Christ said that we need to be "born again" Nicodemus failed completely to understand what he said because he took it literally but Christ meant it spiritually.
John 3:4-12 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
I think this is one of the most important lessons of the Bible, straight from the mouth of our Master Teacher, Jesus Christ. He spoke to us about things of the Spirit. I believe that the "regeneration" of Matthew 19:28 is the same "regeneration" of Titus 3:4, and both of these are the same as the "born again" of John 3:3. It's all about the Gospel. I see nothing that suggests a future earthly kingdom with the 12 resurrected disciples sitting upon literal thrones.

Thanks again for the interesting thread.

Many blessings my friend,

Richard

CWH

08-17-2009, 08:40 PM

Richard Amiel McGough

08-17-2009, 08:54 PM

Hi RAM,

You raised a very interesting question which I have considered before. Is Judas one of the 12 apostles ruling over the 12 tribes of israel when the Lord comes to rule the world? I would say YES!. There is an interesting gnostic gospel call the gospel of Judas which seems to suggest that there was a pre-arrangement between Jesus and Judas that Judas was to be a traitor and got Jesus to be arrested. Judas agreed and after doing that felt very remorseful and committed suicide. I believed the Lord must have forgiven him and thus still considered him as one of the twelve apostles who are to rule over the 12 tribes of Israel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Judas

Many Blessings to you.
Hi Cheow,

I am very surprised by your answer for two reasons. First, the Scripture says that Judas was a "devil" (John 6:70-71) and that "devils" have no fellowship with the people of God. Why should we think that he will be "ruling" over Israel along with the faithful disciples? Jesus called him a "son of perdition" which means "destruction."

Second, the "gospel" of Judas is garbage. Total garbage. Absolute, unadulterated garbage. It tells us nothing of the truth about Christ.

Many blessings and much peace to you,

Richard

CWH

08-17-2009, 09:51 PM

Hi RAM,

If the 12th apostle is not Judas, who could it be? Paul, Mary, I do not think so for they were never included as one of the apostles. Please enlightened me.

Many blessings.

Richard Amiel McGough

08-17-2009, 10:17 PM

Hi RAM,

If the 12th apostle is not Judas, who could it be? Paul, Mary, I do not think so for they were never included as one of the apostles. Please enlightened me.

Many blessings.
I don't see why it could not be Paul if there were a literal fulfillment. But I can't see any reason at all - not one - to think that Christ was talking about a literal future event when the 12 resurrected apostles would be sitting on 12 literal thrones. Can you?

Richard

CWH

08-17-2009, 11:11 PM

Hi RAM,

I don't think is Paul for 2 reasons :

1. The blood of the innocent Christians whom he had persecuted will be crying out against him. Jesus may have forgiven Paul but how is he to account to those innocent Christians whom Paul have killed. Where is the revenge which they are crying for as seen in seal 5 of Revelation? where is the justice? I don't think people wanted one of the top ex-killer of Christians to rule over them as one of the ruler of the 12th tribes of Israel.

2. No where is it stated in the NT that Paul is the 12th apostle.

I do doubted the gospel of Judas but as there is no satisfactory answer as to who the 12th apostle is, I have to accept that Judas is the 12th apostle and that Lord Jesus have forgiven him. Anyway, the gospel of Judas does offer an alternative explanation of the behavior of Judas Iscariot. Why would Judas betrayed Jesus after being with him for those years and witnessing the true powers of the Holy Spirit in Him. Why did he committed suicide after the betrayal?

I don't think Jesus called Judas, the "son of perdition" but rather referring to Satan who is commonly known as the son of perdition. Judas was deceived or was "possessed" by Satan at that point of time to betray Jesus after which he regretted and committed suicide.

The likely 12th apostle to replce Judas was Matthias but I am not very convinced of this:

Act 1
20 “For,” said Peter, “it is written in the book of Psalms,

“ ‘May his place be deserted;
let there be no one to dwell in it,’c

and,
“ ‘May another take his place of leadership.’d

21 Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.”
23 So they proposed two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. 24 Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen 25 to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs.” 26 Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.

Many Blessings to you.

Victor

08-18-2009, 02:51 PM

One of the levels of interpretation of Matthew 19:28 would be the following:
28And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Christ is very specific about the thrones being "twelve". An application to the entire Church is secondary. The primary understanding relates to the 12 apostles of Christ.

It can be said that Christ "sat in the throne of his glory" in His Ascension. The Bible makes it very clear throughout the NT. We just need to read Acts 2 and 3 and Ephesians 1, for example. Those passages show that Christ had already sat in His throne of glory.

That would integrate with the meaning of "regeneration" that is associated with the interpretation of Titus 3 and John 3 that Richard covers above. It is the new life in Christ brought up by the baptism through water and spirit. That's what regeneration is all about. That's what Pentecost is all about. It's what we read in Acts 3:
Acts 3:19f Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
The times of Christ and the Church were the times of regeneration, refreshing and restitution. The regeneration was brought about with the birth of the Church in the first century through the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

That was the time when Christ gave "twelve thrones" to the twelve apostles. The throne signifies regnal power (authority). Christ recieved power as the Davidic King and therefore shared this authority with His apostles. He said after the Resurrection: "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." (Mat 28:18)

This is the Key to understand how the apostles had "thrones" and exercised judgment in the first century. The meaning of Matthew 19:28 should be found in what is said in Matthew 28:19! Right after saying that all power was given to Him, Christ says:
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
Christ recieved power and therefore He shared it with the apostles who were the ones to whom those words were directed. They recieved apostolic authority to baptize and teach, and that was precisely what took place in Pentecost (and onward).

They had power over the "twelve tribes of Israel", a power given by Christ Himself. They were the foundation of New Covenant Israel. (Ephesians 2:20)

The Epistles make it overwhelmingly clear that "Israel" is the designation of the Church. In his commentary on Matthew, Burton Coffman said about Matthew 19:28: "This was not a reference to literal thrones but to spiritual thrones of eminence and authority in Christ’s kingdom, from which they should exercise influence, not over fleshly Israel but over the spiritual Israel which is the church. (Rom. 9:6; Gal. 3:29)"

Matthew is the Gospel of the Davidic King. He describes Christ as the "Son of David" with much more emphasis than the others. No wonder then that only Matthew gives so much space to the kingly power recieved by the apostles. Ony in the work of the First Evangelist do we read about Peter being the Rock (chapter 16), the apostles being able to bind and loose (chapter 18), the "twelve" thrones (chapter 19) and finally the climax in chapter 28: power being given to the apostles.

It is interesting to note that the gematria of the Hebrew word "power" (koach) is 28! All power is given to Christ in Matthew 28, and He therefore gives power to the apostles in that same chapter.

It is also very beautiful to find an interaction between the Numbers 19 and 28 in Matthew 19:28 and 28:19. The digit sum of both numbers is equal to 10 and that reminds of the symbolic meaning of the 10th Letter Yod. Yod literally means "hand", which leads to its symbolic meaning of "power" (like in "the power of the hand"; e.g. Pro 3:27). That naturally links to Book 10, 2 Samuel, where David of the tribe of Judah becomes the King, providing the basis for Christ's Kingship in Matthew. (And the name Judah comes from the root Yod!)

The name Judah is also the Hebrew name of Judas, who first appears in Matthew 10 together with the other apostles. He despised the honour that Christ was going to give him and violated the 10th Commandment by coveting 30 pieces of silver (Judah = 30) and delivering Christ in the hand of the chief priests.

He is the antitype of Ahithophel, one of those who sat with King David and was his counselor in Book 10. Ahithophel betrayed David and later hanged himself. (2 Samuel 17:23) Similarly, only Matthew records that Judas hanged himself. (Matthew 27:5) The phrase "hanged himself" appears only in those two verses.

Judas occupied an office, the office of an apostle. The throne was meant to be a symbol of this office in the Church that was about to be born. If Judas rejected the gift from God, the office had to be occupied by someone else. That's precisely what the 11 apostles understood. Peter said: "His bishoprick let another take." (Acts 1:20) Matthias occupied this office in the account of Acts 1, just in time for Pentecost when the apostles were empowered by the Holy Spirit and Regeneration began. Their number was twelve again.

Curiously Matthias means "gift of the Lord," which is the same meaning of the other apostle, Matthew, who is the one who recorded the great passages about the apostolic authority that Christ gave to the twelve. And it is the name of Matthias that is recorded in the foundation stones of New Jerusalem (= the Church, the New Israel). - Revelation 21:14

Matthew 19:28 may have other levels of application, especially in the context of the saints having dominion in heaven, but the foundation is found in the power recieved by the twelve apostles on earth to guide the Church.

Victor

Victor

08-18-2009, 05:43 PM

CWH

08-18-2009, 10:17 PM

Victor

08-19-2009, 04:57 AM

Hi Victor,

I understand you are talking about a spiritual regeneration in which the 12 apostles will judge over the 12 tribes of Israel although I am more acceptable to a literal regeneration. But that is not the point. Taking that if the 12 apostles were to have a spiritual regeneration and judge the 12 tribes of Israel after AD 70, I wonder what roles would Moses, Elijah, Abraham, Daniel play? The 12 apostles sitting on the 12 thrones would probably have to wait until all those that were in Hades including those who died after AD 70 are judged and released. That means they are currently probably not fully on their thrones yet.

Many Blessings to you.

I don't understand your point. I'm just saying that Matthew 19:28 is fulfilled in the first century because the 12 apostles had spiritual authority over the church.

Christ said that they would occupy their twelve thrones in the time of the regeneration, not that their recieving authority would be a regeneration. The regeneration took place when the Lord poured His Spirit on the Church.

Victor

08-19-2009, 05:17 AM

Another thing that should be pointed out about Matthew 19:28 and 28:19:

The standard value of the word Power (Koach) is 28. But its ordinal value is 19! So both 19 and 28 are directly connected to Power!

I had said that Power is also associated to 10 via the 10th Letter Yod. We read in Scripture:
Exodus 32:11 And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?
The expression "with great power" is literally "with power great" in Hebrew. "With power" is B'Koach, found also in Exodus 15:6. The numerical value of "with power" is thus 30. We have the identity:

With power = 30 = Judah

It integrates with the concept that the tribe of Judah would be the one who would recieve kingly power. (Genesis 49:10)

Concerning the meaning of the Number 30 and the connection to Power and Judah, I forgot to say two things:

First, 30 is the standard value of the 12th Letter, Lamed. This suggests an association between the authority of Judah (= 30) over the 12 tribes of Israel. Similarly, it links to the Davidic authority of Christ given to 12 apostles over the Church.

And Exodus 32:11, quoted above, explicitly parallels "power" with "hand". This parallelism thus links with the identity that unites "With power" and "Judah," because the word Judah is based on the word Hand! We have both a literary parallelism and a numerical identity speaking the same thing:

With great power = With a mighty hand
With power = 30 = Judah

Hand (and Judah) is a Yod KeyWord that appears in the Alphabetic verses. (e.g. Psa 119:73) Power is a Kaph KeyWord that also appears in the Acrostics. (Psalm 111:6) The verse that parallels "power" with "hand" is Exodus 32:11, which corresponds to Exodus (Yod, Kaph) in the alphabetic structure of the Bible!

CWH

08-19-2009, 10:07 AM

I don't understand your point. I'm just saying that Matthew 19:28 is fulfilled in the first century because the 12 apostles had spiritual authority over the church.

Christ said that they would occupy their twelve thrones in the time of the regeneration, not that their recieving authority would be a regeneration. The regeneration took place when the Lord poured His Spirit on the Church.

Ok Victor, I re-phrase my questions:

1. If the 12 apostles rule over the 12 tribes of Israel, then the seniors like, Abraham, Daniel, Moses, Elijah will have no roles to play in the regeneration,

2. What about those Gentiles and non-Jews who died after AD 70, do they become segregated into the 12 tribes of Israel so that the apostles could rule over them?

3. If the regeneration happened in AD 70 then those who died after AD 70 will still be awaiting in Hades. The apostles will have no authority over them until they are judged to be worthy to go to heaven. I would think that they would become rulers over the twelve tribes of Israel only when the GWT judgement is over when everybody from the creation of the word till the final judgement day (not in AD 70 but in the future) will be judged whether they go to heaven or hell. Only when they went to heaven, then the apostles will have full authority to rule over them.

Many Blessings to you.

Victor

08-19-2009, 01:14 PM

Ok Victor, I re-phrase my questions:

1. If the 12 apostles rule over the 12 tribes of Israel, then the seniors like, Abraham, Daniel, Moses, Elijah will have no roles to play in the regeneration,

I'm talking about the past. I'm saying that the 12 apostles were the leaders of the newly born church. The church is the "twelve tribes of Israel". There's no role for these men you mention in the government of the church on earth. The government of the church on earth referred to in Mat 19:28 is exercised by people on earth.

2. What about those Gentiles and non-Jews who died after AD 70, do they become segregated into the 12 tribes of Israel so that the apostles could rule over them?

Gentiles (= non-Jews) became part of the 12 tribes of Israel. Being an "Israelite" is being a Christian. Being a fleshly Jew means nothing under the New Covenant. That's the unanimous witness of the entire New Testament. The Gentiles were graffed in the "olive tree" which is Israel. The Gentile converts in the first century were under the authority of the twelve.

3. If the regeneration happened in AD 70 then those who died after AD 70 will still be awaiting in Hades. The apostles will have no authority over them until they are judged to be worthy to go to heaven. I would think that they would become rulers over the twelve tribes of Israel only when the GWT judgement is over when everybody from the creation of the word till the final judgement day (not in AD 70 but in the future) will be judged whether they go to heaven or hell. Only when they went to heaven, then the apostles will have full authority to rule over them.

Many Blessings to you.

The regeneration didn't happen "in AD 70." Becoming a Christian is a regeneration. That's what John 3, Acts 3 and Titus 3 explain. So the regeneration began in Pentecost with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. People were baptized in water. People were baptized with the Spirit. This regeneration has been going on until today when peoples and nations convert to the Cross and are born again with water and Spirit. The regeneration is a past event, is a present event and is a future event.

When Christ sat in His Throne of Glory in His Ascension, the 12 apostles recieved authority to guide the Church by the Spirit. That's exactly what they did. We just need to read the book of Acts.

Sorry for being so concise, time is short.

God bless,
Victor

Victor

08-19-2009, 01:19 PM

CWH

08-19-2009, 05:48 PM

I'm talking about the past. I'm saying that the 12 apostles were the leaders of the newly born church. The church is the "twelve tribes of Israel". There's no role for these men you mention in the government of the church on earth. The government of the church on earth referred to in Mat 19:28 is exercised by people on earth.

Gentiles (= non-Jews) became part of the 12 tribes of Israel. Being an "Israelite" is being a Christian. Being a fleshly Jew means nothing under the New Covenant. That's the unanimous witness of the entire New Testament. The Gentiles were graffed in the "olive tree" which is Israel. The Gentile converts in the first century were under the authority of the twelve.

The regeneration didn't happen "in AD 70." Becoming a Christian is a regeneration. That's what John 3, Acts 3 and Titus 3 explain. So the regeneration began in Pentecost with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. People were baptized in water. People were baptized with the Spirit. This regeneration has been going on until today when peoples and nations convert to the Cross and are born again with water and Spirit. The regeneration is a past event, is a present event and is a future event.

When Christ sat in His Throne of Glory in His Ascension, the 12 apostles recieved authority to guide the Church by the Spirit. That's exactly what they did. We just need to read the book of Acts.

Sorry for being so concise, time is short.

God bless,
Victor

Yeah! At last, I heard the word "is a future event" from a Full Preterist. I thought Full Preterist never believe in a future event. I am not trying to catch people by their words but just trying to understand from the Full Preterist's view. Please Victor, explain to me what do you mean by the "The regeneration...is a future event". To me, regeneration does not just mean becoming a Christian.

Sorry for being so concise, time is short.

It's ok. Thanks Victor for your effort. It gave me some understandings to the preterist's mind.

God Blessings to you.

Richard Amiel McGough

08-19-2009, 05:50 PM

There's one thing I just noticed.
Exodus 32:11 And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?
When the Bible says "with" power and "with" a mighty hand, the particle that is used to indicate "with" is the second letter Bet. Since hand is a Yod KeyWord and Power is a Kaph KeyWord, the parallelism "with great power, and with a mighty hand" involves the letters Bet, Yod and Kaph. And these are the three exact words that govern the verse!

Exodus 32:11 => (2,10,11) => Bet, Yod, Kaph
That's a wonderful insight Victor! It's amazing what you see when you choose to look!

Many years ago I would index my Bible by hand as I read it using the Hebrew letters. I very frequently saw amazing correlations with their meaning and gematria. You have encourage me to start sharing some of those insights. For example, the Key to the Bible is given in the verse index by Aleph Tav Tav (23:22:22):

Isaiah 22:22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.
Aleph Tav Tav is the plural of Aleph Tav which is the fundamental word for a divine sign used throughout the OT. It also seals God's Word from Aleph to Tav (Alpha Omega) in the form of the Wheel.

Thanks! :sunny:

Richard

Richard Amiel McGough

08-19-2009, 06:04 PM

Richard Amiel McGough

08-19-2009, 06:19 PM

I'm talking about the past. I'm saying that the 12 apostles were the leaders of the newly born church. The church is the "twelve tribes of Israel". There's no role for these men you mention in the government of the church on earth. The government of the church on earth referred to in Mat 19:28 is exercised by people on earth.

Amen! I think that is the plain truth of the Bible. At Pentecost, God redeemed devout Jews "from every tribe under heaven." These Jews from all twelve tribes were the seed of the Church which God then expanded by including Gentiles.

Gentiles (= non-Jews) became part of the 12 tribes of Israel. Being an "Israelite" is being a Christian. Being a fleshly Jew means nothing under the New Covenant. That's the unanimous witness of the entire New Testament. The Gentiles were graffed in the "olive tree" which is Israel. The Gentile converts in the first century were under the authority of the twelve.

Triple amen! I could not have said it more clearly myself.

The regeneration didn't happen "in AD 70." Becoming a Christian is a regeneration. That's what John 3, Acts 3 and Titus 3 explain. So the regeneration began in Pentecost with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. People were baptized in water. People were baptized with the Spirit. This regeneration has been going on until today when peoples and nations convert to the Cross and are born again with water and Spirit. The regeneration is a past event, is a present event and is a future event.

Exactly correct - the regeneration began at a point in the past, but it continues throughout time. And kudos for the implicit recognition of the occurrence of the Number 3 in conjunction with the action of the Third Person of the Godhead. Constant repetition of these amazing correlations will help everyone see the glory of what God has done in His Word. Here is a link to the first article concerning Spoke 3 of the Bible Wheel:

Spoke 3 - Gimel - The Holy Spirit, the Giver of God's Abundant Gifts (http://www.biblewheel.com/Wheel/Spokes/Gimel_Spirit.asp).

When Christ sat in His Throne of Glory in His Ascension, the 12 apostles recieved authority to guide the Church by the Spirit. That's exactly what they did. We just need to read the book of Acts.

Sorry for being so concise, time is short.

God bless,
Victor
Well done Victor!

:clap2:

Richard

CWH

08-19-2009, 06:28 PM

Hey Cheow,

I'm sure Victor will want to answer for himself, but as far as I know, he has never identified himself as a "preterist" let alone a "full preterist." So we probably want to be careful will assumptions and labels.

As for your idea that "Full Preterists never believe in a future event" - is that a joke? It sounds like it must be, because jokes are often absurd. :p

Preterists are a very level-headed group of Christians - we are not unaware that time consists of past/prestent/future and that we are still in time.

Many blessings my friend,

Richard

Sorry for my assumptions, but from my transactions with Victor, he seems to be a preterist.:yo:

Preterists are a very level-headed group of Christians - we are not unaware that time consists of past/prestent/future and that we are still in time.

Thanks Richard, that's another revelation into the preterist's mind. I am quite interested in the future things that preterists believe; it makes things easier for a futurist like me and some of us here to understand and communicate.

God Blessings to you.

Richard Amiel McGough

08-19-2009, 08:26 PM

Sorry for my assumptions, but from my transactions with Victor, he seems to be a preterist.:yo:

No worries. We are all getting to know each other better all the time.

Thanks Richard, that's another revelation into the preterist's mind. I am quite interested in the future things that preterists believe; it makes things easier for a futurist like me and some of us here to understand and communicate.

God Blessings to you.
Hummm ... I'm surprised that we seem so foreign to you. Most of what I believe about the Bible is based on the "plain text" the way it would have been understood by the people who wrote it. For example, all the time statements were almost certainly understood in accordance with their ordinary meanings. I'm quite sure that not one of the NT writers would have believed that "soon" and "at hand" and "at the very door" and "it is the last hour" would have meant anything different than what they mean in ordinary everyday human discourse.

Much peace to you,

Richard

Victor

08-21-2009, 01:12 PM

Yeah! At last, I heard the word "is a future event" from a Full Preterist. I thought Full Preterist never believe in a future event. I am not trying to catch people by their words but just trying to understand from the Full Preterist's view. Please Victor, explain to me what do you mean by the "The regeneration...is a future event". To me, regeneration does not just mean becoming a Christian.

It's ok. Thanks Victor for your effort. It gave me some understandings to the preterist's mind.

God Blessings to you.

Hey Cheow! That's a cool conversation. Let me explain what I mean.

Regeneration is what Christ does in the life of anyone who recieves the Gospel. That's what it does to us. That's what John 3 goes out of its way to say. Richard explained it in post #3 above. Don't you agree with me that sharing in the life of Christ through grace by faith in the Spirit is a regeneration?

Note that John 3, Acts 3 and Titus 3 are full of synonimous words to describe this glorious work of Christ in our lives. Regeneration, rebirth, renewal, refreshing, restitution.

The very word regeneration in Greek means "re-genesis", genesis again. In the beginning, God created all things. Re-genesis is God recreating all things. "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!" (2Co 5:7)

The work of Christ is a New Creation. That's what the whole Gospel of John teaches us when he narrates his story by describing Jesus' ministry as a re-creation, using language of the account of Genesis.

Despite Christ and the Spirit doing this work in our individual lives, they once did it in a large-escale event that involved many people to get things started in a mighty way. It was Pentecost, the foundation of the Church. That's when the work of regeneration began with the baptism of 3,000. This is an ongoing work that will last as long as there is a soul with the stain of sin who recieves the Gospel. That's why it is a past, present and future event, since you and I know with 100% certitude that in the future there will be people who wil turn to Christ.

By the way, I'm not a "full-preterist". :)

Victor

08-21-2009, 01:16 PM

That's a wonderful insight Victor! It's amazing what you see when you choose to look!

Many years ago I would index my Bible by hand as I read it using the Hebrew letters. I very frequently saw amazing correlations with their meaning and gematria. You have encourage me to start sharing some of those insights. For example, the Key to the Bible is given in the verse index by Aleph Tav Tav (23:22:22):
Isaiah 22:22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.
Aleph Tav Tav is the plural of Aleph Tav which is the fundamental word for a divine sign used throughout the OT. It also seals God's Word from Aleph to Tav (Alpha Omega) in the form of the Wheel.

Thanks! :sunny:

Richard

So please share with us! This one in Isaiah 22:22 spelling "wonders" is really a wonder!

One big thing concerning Exo 32:11 is that all three letter connections (Bet Prefix, Hand and Power) are found in the Acrostics!

Victor

08-21-2009, 01:19 PM

As for your idea that "Full Preterists never believe in a future event" - is that a joke? It sounds like it must be, because jokes are often absurd. :p

Preterists are a very level-headed group of Christians - we are not unaware that time consists of past/prestent/future and that we are still in time.

I guess Cheow means that full preterists don't believe in any specific future event distinctively marked by Bible prophecy, not that there are no future events. :D

CWH

08-21-2009, 05:54 PM

Hi Cheow,

I am very surprised by your answer for two reasons. First, the Scripture says that Judas was a "devil" (John 6:70-71) and that "devils" have no fellowship with the people of God. Why should we think that he will be "ruling" over Israel along with the faithful disciples? Jesus called him a "son of perdition" which means "destruction."

Second, the "gospel" of Judas is garbage. Total garbage. Absolute, unadulterated garbage. It tells us nothing of the truth about Christ.

Many blessings and much peace to you,

Richard

Hi Richard,

I love alternative explanations in my quests to understand God words deeper; it opened my eyes to other possible explanations rather than have a one-sided view. And one of the best places to look are the non-canonical books and traditions. Not that I believe in all these non-canonical books and traditions but that they gave "probable answers and understandings" to questions concerning the Scriptures. I was just trying to understand why Judas behaved the way he behaved and who the 12th apostle was in replacement of him:

1. Brought the guards to get Jesus arrested? Why would he do that after knowing he is the Lord as one of the 12 apostle?
2. God allowed that to happen; Jesus could have easily disappear "among the midst" to avoid arrest. Perhaps, God wanted it to happen as pre-planned so as to fulfill the prophesy.
3. He felt remorse after that and committed suicide. Is it because he agreed to the pre-plan to get Jesus arrested so as to fulfill the prophesy?
4. After he died, is he still considered as one of the 12 apostles after all it was pre-planned and he had regretted?
5. Matthias took over Judas as the 12th apostle but he seems like a "stand in" as stated in some traditions and from what Peter seems to say before the election of Matthias as the 12th apostle.
6. If Matthias is the 12th apostle, then why are there still conflicting views as to who the 12th apostle is, some say Paul, some say Mary etc.
7. St. James died in AD 44 under the hand of Herod and was also recorded in Acts but there is no record of anyone replacing him as the 12th apostle..why?
8. Why only 12 apostles, why not 13, 14 or more? so that they cold rule over the 12 tribes of Israel in the Kingdom of God? or are there other reasons? What about the Gentiles who received Christ who don't belong to any of the 12 tribes of Israel?
9. Was God so haphazardous in the way he chose the 12 apostles or did he chose them each with a purpose in mind?

It is also interesting to note regarding what is said in Revelation and Matthew:

Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Revelation 21:14

"Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His Glory, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

Obviously, in Matthew 19 : 28, Judas was definitely one of the 12th who followed him, and the Lord's word was out. I won't be surprized to see Judas's name as one of the name of the 12 apostles of the Lamb as stated in Revelation and on one of the 12 pillars in the New Jerusalem.

Hope someone can help answer some of the questions.

Many Blessings to you.

CWH

08-21-2009, 06:05 PM

I guess Cheow means that full preterists don't believe in any specific future event distinctively marked by Bible prophecy, not that there are no future events. :D

Yes, that is exactly what I mean. I would certainly love to hear from any preterist what are the future Biblical prophesies they believe that have not been fulfilled but will be fulfilled in the future. Partial preterists believe certain part of Revelation have not been fuifilled but will be fulfilled in the future. And there are also "futurist-preterists"....people like me :D

Many Blessings to you.

Rose

08-21-2009, 07:31 PM

Hi Richard,

I love alternative explanations in my quests to understand God words deeper; it opened my eyes to other possible explanations rather than have a one-sided view. And one of the best places to look are the non-canonical books and traditions. Not that I believe in all these non-canonical books and traditions but that they gave "probable answers and understandings" to questions concerning the Scriptures. I was just trying to understand why Judas behaved the way he behaved and who the 12th apostle was in replacement of him:

1. Brought the guards to get Jesus arrested? Why would he do that after knowing he is the Lord as one of the 12 apostle?
2. God allowed that to happen; Jesus could have easily disappear "among the midst" to avoid arrest. Perhaps, God wanted it to happen as pre-planned so as to fulfill the prophesy.
3. He felt remorse after that and committed suicide. Is it because he agreed to the pre-plan to get Jesus arrested so as to fulfill the prophesy?
4. After he died, is he still considered as one of the 12 apostles after all it was pre-planned and he had regretted?
5. Matthias took over Judas as the 12th apostle but he seems like a "stand in" as stated in some traditions and from what Peter seems to say before the election of Matthias as the 12th apostle.
6. If Matthias is the 12th apostle, then why are there still conflicting views as to who the 12th apostle is, some say Paul, some say Mary etc.
7. St. James died in AD 44 under the hand of Herod and was also recorded in Acts but there is no record of anyone replacing him as the 12th apostle..why?
8. Why only 12 apostles, why not 13, 14 or more? so that they cold rule over the 12 tribes of Israel in the Kingdom of God? or are there other reasons? What about the Gentiles who received Christ who don't belong to any of the 12 tribes of Israel?
9. Was God so haphazardous in the way he chose the 12 apostles or did he chose them each with a purpose in mind?

Hope someone can help answer some of the questions.

Many Blessings to you.

Hi Cheow,

From my understanding there is a difference in a "Disciple" and an "Apostle". A disciple is a student; the 12 disciples were those whom Jesus chose to be His closest students, even though there were many other disciples who were just people who followed His teachings. When Judas betrayed Jesus and killed himself he was replaced with another disciple "Matthias" so there would be twelve, but we don't know if Matthias was ever considered an apostle (even though it says he was counted with the eleven apostles, it doesn't specifically say he was an apostle). The eleven Disciples became apostles, but not all disciples that followed Jesus became apostles.

If you look in Revelation you will see that the the twelve foundations have the names of the twelve Apostles written in them. This tells me that those who are considered apostles are probably the eleven original disciples plus Paul, because we know that Paul was called an apostle....but he wasn't an original disciple.
Rev. 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

God Bless

Rose

CWH

08-21-2009, 07:55 PM

Rose

08-21-2009, 08:58 PM

Hi Rose,

That's a good point. But sometimes, disciples and apostles are used interchangeably in the BIble:

Matthew 10

1He called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out evil[a] spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.

2These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; 3Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.

It is also interesting to note regarding what is said in Revelation and Matthew:

Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Revelation 21:14

"Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His Glory, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

Judas was definitely one of those 12 apostles who followed him.

Many Blessings to you.

It seems the only times that they are used interchangeably is in referring to the original 12. And yes, Judas was one of the disciples, and was called an apostle, but I'm not sure if Matthias who replaced Judas was considered one of the apostles whose name was in the twelve foundations. We do know though that Paul was called an apostle, so chances are his name is among those written in the twelve foundations.

Jesus says that those of the twelve disciples who have followed him will sit on twelve thrones, and judge the twelve tribes, so that crosses out Judas even if he did repent for his betrayal.

God Bless

Rose

CWH

08-22-2009, 03:12 AM

It seems the only times that they are used interchangeably is in referring to the original 12. And yes, Judas was one of the disciples, and was called an apostle, but I'm not sure if Matthias who replaced Judas was considered one of the apostles whose name was in the twelve foundations. We do know though that Paul was called an apostle, so chances are his name is among those written in the twelve foundations.

Jesus says that those of the twelve disciples who have followed him will sit on twelve thrones, and judge the twelve tribes, so that crosses out Judas even if he did repent for his betrayal.

God Bless

Rose

HI Rose,

"Those who followed HIm will sit on the twelve throne", that crosses out Paul also for he is not the original twelve apostles that followed Jesus. I saw a web site that do not support Paul as the 12th apostle:

http://christianresourceslinks.com/new_page_2.htm

3. Was Paul qualified to be one of the Twelve?

It is interesting to observe that those who discredit the appointment of Matthias as one of the Twelve nevertheless accept the criteria Peter proposed as the basis for making that choice in the first chapter of Acts. One might suppose that an erroneous decision would be the result of faulty reasoning; that is, if the decision to appoint Matthias was a mistake, the reasoning process behind that decision must also have been faulty. Incorrect reasoning is not likely to lead to correct conclusions, except through sheer luck.

Still, while claiming that Matthias was a false apostle, most individuals who hold this view nevertheless seem to accept Peter’s quotes from Psalms 69 and 109 (Acts 1:20) as properly applying to the matter of replacing Judas, and they also agree with Peter that a member of the Twelve had to be someone who was part of the group that followed the Lord “.. from the baptism of John until the day when he [Jesus] was taken up.. “ (Acts 1:21).

Regarding the second part of this criteria, however, supporters of Paul seem to be willing to accept as a suitable substitute his having only “.. seen Jesus our Lord..” (1 Cor. 9:1), and this by means of revelation. In fact, Paul did not follow Jesus “from the baptism of John until the day when he [Jesus] was taken up.”

This is not to say that Paul was a deficient apostle. If it is safe to make such assessments, one might easily conclude that Paul was the greatest of all the apostles. Even if this is true, however, it does not follow that he was one of the Twelve.

I liken this to charter members of a local church, and those who join that church at a later date. A group of individuals might initiate a Christian work in a given community, including the construction of a meeting hall. They are the charter members. Later, others might join their fellowship who are better and more effective Christians than any of the original members. Nevertheless, they are not charter members.

Paul may have been the greatest Christian of the first century, even greater than all the other apostles combined (if we wish to engage in exaggeration), but that did not make him one of the Twelve. He just did not satisfy the requirements.

The fact is, we have Scripture supporting the choice of Matthias as Judas’ replacement (and scriptural support for his having functioned along with the other eleven), but not a word anywhere making the same claim for Paul—not by Paul himself or anyone else (see also #6, below).

Claiming Paul to be the 12th apostle is wishful thinking just because he was probably the greatest of all the apostles. So it's left with either Judas or Matthias. But as with Matthias, hardly anything is known about him.

There is a website that supports Judas:

http://atheism.about.com/od/gospelcontradictions/p/JudasBetrayal.htm

Why did Judas Betray Jesus?:

There was no option for Jesus not to be executed because without his crucifixion, he could not rise again in three days and thus save humanity. To be executed, though, he had to be betrayed to the Jewish authorities — if Judas hadn’t done it, someone else would have. In Mark, the motive of greed is ascribed to Judas. Matthew agrees with Mark but Luke claims that Judas was led astray by Satan. John, on the other hand, attributes the motivation to both Satan and a penchant for theft.

Prophecy of Judas’ Destiny:

It would be fair to think that Judas’ betrayal of Jesus would send him to hell, but since Judas couldn’t have had a choice, shouldn’t he be praised? According to Jesus in Matthew 19:28, all 12 disciples would sit on thrones to judge the 12 tribes of Israel. Judas was obviously one of the 12 at this point. When Paul writes that Jesus appeared “to the twelve” after his resurrection, whom could he have had in mind if not Judas? It doesn’t sound like he was punished in this life or the next.

Judas and Satan:

Christian tradition has it that Satan helped lead Judas to betray Jesus, but when?

Luke 22:3-6 - Satan enters and affects Judas before the Last Supper
John 13:27 - Satan enters and affects Judas during the supper
Mark, Matthew - There is no mention of Satan entering or affecting Judas

I believe that Judas committed suicide for his grieve that he is the chosen one to betray Jesus. He may have agreed to do it so that the prophesy would be fulfilled but regretted after that. In the Gnostic gospel of Judas, it seems Judas was instructed to betray Jesus and also to commit suicide which he agreed! If this is true, Judas is a Hero for he ensured that all humanity will be save by grace through the sacrificial blood of Christ at the cross.

Many Blessings to you.

gregoryfl

08-22-2009, 07:50 AM

CWH

08-22-2009, 08:45 AM

Hi Rose,

I believe that Paul is not the 12th apostle, however, I believe that Paul will be the apostle ruling over the Gentiles in the Kingdom of God who received Christ but who don't fit into the 12 tribes of Israel. The clues lie in that Paul self proclaimed to be the apostle to the Gentiles. Paul would not dare to offend God by self-proclaiming as apostle to the Gentiles unless he was ordained by God as stated in 1 Timothy 2:7 (in red):

Romans 1:5
Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith.

Romans 11:13
I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry

Galatians 2:8
For God, who was at work in the ministry of Peter as an apostle to the Jews, was also at work in my ministry as an apostle to the Gentiles.

1 Timothy 2:7
And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.

Many Blessings to you.

joel

08-22-2009, 09:57 AM

I believe that Paul is not the 12th apostle,

Cheow (can we address you in this abbreviated form....or do you prefer your full applelation?).......

I support your claim concerning Paul.

When we look back into Acts 1.......some qualifications concerning Judas' replacement were;

1.) the replacement needed to be a person who companied together with those who were present the times that Jesus went in and out among them. This time period would apply from the time of John's baptism ministry to the time of Jesus' departure into heaven. Paul could not be numbered among that group.....but.....the replacement must be included in that group.

Two people were brought forth......Joseph, called Barsabas, surnamed Justus, and Matthias.

How would they choose from the two? They first appointed these two (which implies that these two met the initial qualification). Then, they prayed, and asked the Lord to show them which one of these two. Since Jesus had chosen the original twelve, and He is the Lord, they believed their prayer would be answered, and that the Lord would make the choice.

Their prayer contained a reference to the replacement taking part in their ministry and apostleship. There needed to be 12.

Their prayer contained reference to Judas..........."from which Judas by transgression fell".......it seems to imply that Judas stepped away from, and stepped out of the joint ministry and aposteship......and then, in verse 25....it says......"that he might go to his own place". This truly is a curious phrase.........can it be interpreted........"that he might through experience be transferred to another place......where he might actually experience the gravity of his deed"?

2.) The second reason that Paul could not be the replacement, other than the fact that he wasn't called until later and was not counted in the company of the original believers, is that the replacement was to be chosen by casting lots.

It appears that they actually picked out the replacement by drawing stones, one for each of the candidates. This practice appears to go far back into Israel's past when the "allotment" apportioned to the tribes was determined in a similar fashion. This all applies to a future inheritance.

3.) The replacement would come into a new official role of being a witness concerning the resurrection of Christ. Even though no one actually saw the resurrection, they saw the Lord who was raised, and could be powerful witnesses to that phase.
Paul was not a member of that company as He was the zealous persecutor, Saul of Tarsus, until he was knocked from his horse by a vision of the ascended Lord.
His apostleship represents a ministry separate from the original twelve as he was the apostle to the Gentiles as you pointed out.

Blessings to you,

Joel

Rose

08-22-2009, 10:06 AM

Another point about Judas that could be true is that the scripture we are all so familiar with might not say what we have been taught. Consider:

Mar 14:21 seeing that the Son of Mankind is indeed going away according as it is written concerning Him, yet woe to that man through whom the Son of Man is being given up! It would have been better for him if that man were not born!"

Now, the closest antecedent to the underlined him is Son of Man. We have assumed that Jesus was saying it would have been better for "him" [Judas] if "that man" Judas were not born.

I believe he could be actually saying that it would have been better for "him" Son of Man if "that man" Judas were not born.

The one thing, however, that I see as a reason not to accept such reasoning is his saying a woe to Judas. I cannot say that it is strong enough to totally overturn such reasoning, but is something to consider.

Ron

Hi Ron & Cheow

Very good points all the way around!

You make a very good point Ron, about the way Matt. 14:21 can be read, it makes sense both ways.

As for Judas still being counted among the 12, I still tend to think not....even if he repented for betraying Jesus. It makes no sense to have a person who is dishonest, and a betrayer to sit in judgment over his people. :eek:

God Bless

Rose

CWH

08-22-2009, 10:23 AM

Thanks Joel for your support, I can always count on you. :yo: Yes, it's ok to call me Cheow.

Thanks Rose for your comment. :yo:

As for who is the 12th apostle, I am still torn between Judas and Matthias. I am skewed more towards Judas.
Give me two stones, let's pray and cast lots :lol: !

Many Blessings to you all.

joel

08-22-2009, 10:37 AM

Yes, it's ok to call me Cheow.

Great......one last question concerning your name......
how is it phonetically pronounced?
Is it like.......the way you greet in Italian......which is spelled Ciao...but is pronounced......."chow" in English?

Joel

CWH

08-22-2009, 10:51 AM

Great......one last question concerning your name......
how is it phonetically pronounced?
Is it like.......the way you greet in Italian......which is spelled Ciao...but is pronounced......."chow" in English?

Joel

I understand Caucasians usually have difficulty in pronouncing Chinese names. It is pronounced exactly as Ciao in Italian which means "Goodbye"....erh....not so soon :lol:. An American friend once expressed so. It s a corrupted form of the Chow clan. I am not related to Hong Kong actor Chow Yun Fatt anyway.

Many Blessings to you, joel.

joel

08-22-2009, 11:06 AM

Thanks......I'll think of you as "Hello".....and not "Good-bye".

So, for now......Good-bye Hello......

Joel

Victor

08-24-2009, 02:40 PM

I don't understand why we should give so much credence to the explanation that Judas was just "playing a role" in the arrest of Jesus and that his name was later included in the list of the twelve. It doesn't make any sense at all.

First, I gave a lenghty explanation showing that what mattered in Christ's promise in Matthew 19:28 was not the person of Judas, but the office he would occupy if he were faithful.

Acts 1 shows that other should occupy "his bishoprick." That clearly indicates an office. The Bible is overwhelmingly clear that Matthias occupied this office in place of the betrayer.

And if a person recieves the Bible as the inspired Word of God, he could not see the "Gospel of Judas" as being authoritative at all in terms of doctrine. For a Christian it is just a historical document dated long after the composition of the canonical Gospels.

In fact, this "Gospel" was produced with the definite intent of producing polemics. It was composed by Gnostics, a group widely recognized by Christians as being heretics that claimed they had special secret knowledge. The "Gospel of Judas" was written as a manifestation of the belief that Christ had not really become a man. (2 John 1:7)

Second-century Church Father Irenaeus wrote about this Gospel of Judas in his Against Heresies (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103131.htm):

1.31.1 They [the Gnostics]declare that Judas the traitor, (...) and that he alone, knowing the truth as no others did, accomplished the mystery of the betrayal; by him all things, both earthly and heavenly, were thus thrown into confusion. They produce a fictitious history of this kind, which they style the Gospel of Judas.

CWH

08-24-2009, 04:57 PM

Hi Victor,

I understand your concern of my "pro" view iof Judas. BTW, I don't see the Gospel of Judas as inspired or authoritative but rather like a crime novel in which there is a different story to the outcome.

This is what goes into my thoughts, if you care to answer:
1) Why is God so careless to recruit Judas as one of the 12 apostles in the first place?
2) Why didn't God foresee that Judas will be the one that will get Jesus to be arrested?
3) Why didn't Jesus just "disappear" to prevent being arrested?
4) Jesus knew beforehand that Judas wil betray him but did not do anything to prevent himself from being arrested.
5) Why should Judas be the one to betray him? It could fall on any of his apostle.
6) Was the betrayal of Jesus pre-planned or as according to prophesy or inspired by Satan or conspired so as to fulfill the prophesy?
7) Why didn't the apostles who were with Jesus resisted the arrest so as to gain time for Jesus to escape the arrest?
8) Why didn't God saved Jesus from the cross?
9) Why must things happened so that the prophesy is fulfilled? It's like saying things happened so that it is according to the script of the movie as pre-planned.

I understand that Matthias has been elected and chosen by God to replace Judas but was it a "stand in" so as to make up the number of 12 apostles as seemed stated by Peter?

That is why I am torn between Matthias and Judas as the 12th apostle; Judas was the original 12th apostle whereas Matthias was not. It brings up the issue of if someone is possessed by the Devil and did something offensive of which he has no intention to, is he guilty of the offence? Judas may not be as bad as he seemed. Unluckily, Judas just happened to be the chosen one to betray Jesus, that is what I am trying to portray.

Many Blessings to you Victor.

Silence

08-25-2009, 11:54 AM

Hello All,
I really wish I had more time to read the threads on this forum.

Ron - thanks for pointing out the wording on Matthew 14:21. It really is amazing how we tend to use "auto-complete" in our thinking, even when reading something as important as the Word of God.

Eventually every Christian comes up against the "problems" associated with Judas being chosen by Jesus as an apostle, even though Jesus knew what would happen, and at the same time Judas is still an active participant and suffers consequences for his actions. It goes back to the concept of free will and predestination, which has taken discussions around in circles for ages, looking for a resolution.

I would like to share something that came to mind as I read the last few posts about Judas losing his share in the apostleship. The words of Peter indicate that Judas forfeited his office as "bishop" and that it was to be given to another. He doesn't say whether this is meant to be seen as Judas also forfeiting his right to sit on one of the twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel when the Son of man comes in His kingdom as mentioned in Matthew 19:28. The two may or may not be the same thing, depending on whether "sitting on twelve thrones and judging the twelve tribes of Israel" is meant to be seen as the apostles being used to rule the early church.

A few things that bother me about that view - first, the church is never mentioned as being divided into twelve "tribes" (phyle). There are places where believers are described as being "of" or "from" all the 'phyle' of the earth, but this term doesn't seem to be used to describe divisions of groups within the church. The one instance where a numbered group of churches is mentioned is in Revelation and there are seven in that grouping, not twelve. And they are refered to as ecclesia, not phyle.

Second, we don't hear about the twelve apostles ruling over twelve separate groups within the church. All twelve participated in making decisions at their councils, but the only division that seemed to be in view at these councils was between two groups of believers - the Jewish and Gentile Christians. These are two reasons why I believe Matthew 19:28 is talking about something future.

It seems that most people take the things that are written about Judas in their worst possible light, and use them as warnings to keep others from making the same kinds of mistakes. And there are places in scripture where God makes an example of a certain situation or certain people and uses it as a warning. But there are also many places in scripture where God warns people and tells them what the consequences will be for disobedience even though He knows ahead of time that they will not listen and that His warning will not stop them. In this type of case, it seems that the only reason God issues the warning is to take away the possibility of the people blaming God when things go wrong. Sometimes I wonder if God doesn't issue warnings and predict the results not so much to prevent us from doing evil, or to provide an advance witness to vindicate His judgments when they come, as to show us that He knows the future and that no matter what we do, in the end He is in control and directs things according to His will. At times I wonder if, instead of the church offending people and being persecuted for being so exclusive as Christians, that maybe we as the church would be much more persecuted if we preached to everyone that they will all eventually become Christians no matter how much they fight against it.

To get back to Judas and the regeneration, I don't believe that what Judas did would preclude him from a place of authority in the future. Peter made plenty of mistakes, and Paul took him to task for one in particular that had serious implications for the future of the gospel. Paul himself had done plenty of terrible things to wreak havoc against God's people. It is true that Peter and Paul always responded correctly eventually, whereas Judas died before doing this. But since seeing the way the Greek text of Hebrews 9:27 is worded, I don't know that death is the end of God's dealing with men before He is finished with them. If God is not done with Judas, then what he did and what he went through could be redeemed and could be used as an example in God's dealings with others.

CWH

08-25-2009, 03:24 PM

Good post Slence !:thumb:

I like your part about the 12 apostles ruling as a whole over the 12 tribes of Israel rather than one apostle for one tribe. It has not come to my mind about that possibility. I also like your part about Judas forfeiting the "bishopship" but does not necessary meant giving up the right to rule over the 12 tribes of Israel. The word was already out from the Lord that those (original) 12 which he have chosen who followed Him will rule over the 12 tribes of Israel. Is God going to take back his word? Obviously not! According to the Gospels, we used to hear Jesus telling the 12 apostles to do this and that, obviously, Judas must have been diligent in following his orders. Unfortunately, he was the one chosen to betray Jesus and he diligently did it because if he did not, one of the apostles will have to do it so that the prophesy will be fulfilled that Jesus died for our sins.

Many Blessing to you Silence.

Victor

08-25-2009, 03:24 PM

This is what goes into my thoughts, if you care to answer:
1) Why is God so careless to recruit Judas as one of the 12 apostles in the first place?
2) Why didn't God foresee that Judas will be the one that will get Jesus to be arrested?
3) Why didn't Jesus just "disappear" to prevent being arrested?
4) Jesus knew beforehand that Judas wil betray him but did not do anything to prevent himself from being arrested.
5) Why should Judas be the one to betray him? It could fall on any of his apostle.
6) Was the betrayal of Jesus pre-planned or as according to prophesy or inspired by Satan or conspired so as to fulfill the prophesy?
7) Why didn't the apostles who were with Jesus resisted the arrest so as to gain time for Jesus to escape the arrest?
8) Why didn't God saved Jesus from the cross?
9) Why must things happened so that the prophesy is fulfilled? It's like saying things happened so that it is according to the script of the movie as pre-planned.

Eventually every Christian comes up against the "problems" associated with Judas being chosen by Jesus as an apostle, even though Jesus knew what would happen, and at the same time Judas is still an active participant and suffers consequences for his actions. It goes back to the concept of free will and predestination, which has taken discussions around in circles for ages, looking for a resolution.

I would like to share something that came to mind as I read the last few posts about Judas losing his share in the apostleship. The words of Peter indicate that Judas forfeited his office as "bishop" and that it was to be given to another. He doesn't say whether this is meant to be seen as Judas also forfeiting his right to sit on one of the twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel when the Son of man comes in His kingdom as mentioned in Matthew 19:28. The two may or may not be the same thing, depending on whether "sitting on twelve thrones and judging the twelve tribes of Israel" is meant to be seen as the apostles being used to rule the early church.

A few things that bother me about that view - first, the church is never mentioned as being divided into twelve "tribes" (phyle). There are places where believers are described as being "of" or "from" all the 'phyle' of the earth, but this term doesn't seem to be used to describe divisions of groups within the church. The one instance where a numbered group of churches is mentioned is in Revelation and there are seven in that grouping, not twelve. And they are refered to as ecclesia, not phyle.

Second, we don't hear about the twelve apostles ruling over twelve separate groups within the church. All twelve participated in making decisions at their councils, but the only division that seemed to be in view at these councils was between two groups of believers - the Jewish and Gentile Christians. These are two reasons why I believe Matthew 19:28 is talking about something future.

It seems that most people take the things that are written about Judas in their worst possible light, and use them as warnings to keep others from making the same kinds of mistakes. And there are places in scripture where God makes an example of a certain situation or certain people and uses it as a warning. But there are also many places in scripture where God warns people and tells them what the consequences will be for disobedience even though He knows ahead of time that they will not listen and that His warning will not stop them. In this type of case, it seems that the only reason God issues the warning is to take away the possibility of the people blaming God when things go wrong. Sometimes I wonder if God doesn't issue warnings and predict the results not so much to prevent us from doing evil, or to provide an advance witness to vindicate His judgments when they come, as to show us that He knows the future and that no matter what we do, in the end He is in control and directs things according to His will. At times I wonder if, instead of the church offending people and being persecuted for being so exclusive as Christians, that maybe we as the church would be much more persecuted if we preached to everyone that they will all eventually become Christians no matter how much they fight against it.

To get back to Judas and the regeneration, I don't believe that what Judas did would preclude him from a place of authority in the future. Peter made plenty of mistakes, and Paul took him to task for one in particular that had serious implications for the future of the gospel. Paul himself had done plenty of terrible things to wreak havoc against God's people. It is true that Peter and Paul always responded correctly eventually, whereas Judas died before doing this. But since seeing the way the Greek text of Hebrews 9:27 is worded, I don't know that death is the end of God's dealing with men before He is finished with them. If God is not done with Judas, then what he did and what he went through could be redeemed and could be used as an example in God's dealings with others.

Hello brothers,

I'm sorry but I don't have the time to respond to all these issues. I have much pleasure in doing so, the questions are legitimate, but they have been addressed many times before in the last 2,000 years so the answer will be found if the person does some research. I just don't have the time to type all that I want if I want to explain it adequately.

I'll just address the couple of things that you Ron mentioned. "The twelve tribes of Israel" is one of countless names of the Church. She is the Body of the Lord, the Bride of the Lamb, the Light of the World, the Israel of God, the Olive Tree, the Salt of the Earth, the New Jerusalem, Holy Nation, Living Stones, etc., etc. This epithet of "twelve tribes of Israel" in nothing determines that the Church is divided in twelve parts. It is just one more appelative derived from the fact that the Israelites were the Covenant People of God and so in the New Covenant the Church inherits this name.

Matthew 19:28 obviously never implies that there should be a correspondence between the offices of the twelve and this artificial and non-existant division of the Church in twelve parts. Christ is merely saying in typical symbolic language that the apostles would rule over the Church. So He said: 'you'll have 12 trones where you will sit to judge the 12 tribes [= the Church]'. That's that. We don't read to read more than this into the text.

Let God bless us all!

Victor

08-27-2009, 03:57 PM

I showed in posts above that Power is the presumed word that connects Matthew 19:28 and 28:19. It never appears in any of the two verses, but its underlying 'influence' is very strong there.

First, 'power' is the obvious symbolic meaning of the 'thrones' for ‘judgment’ in the first verse.

Second, power is what Christ gave the apostles so that they could make disciples. The previous verse says: 'All power is given unto me.' Christ thus shared His power with His apostles in Matthew 28:19.

Third, the numerical value of Power in Hebrew links to both numbers that index chapter and verse in each verse:

Power (ordinal) = 19

Power (standard) = 28

But I want to add something that tightens the relationship between Matthew 19:28 and 28:19 with the concept of Power.

Koach is a Kaph KeyWord. It appears in the following acrostic Psalm:
Psalm 111:6 He hath shewed his people the power (koach) of his works, that he may give them the heritage of the heathen.
Kaph is the 11th Letter of the Hebrew Alphabet. The surprising fact is that there are other links between Kaph and the verses in consideration. Consider the first:
Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
In Hebrew, both Thone and Glory are Kaph KeyWords! Throne is Kissey and Glory is Kavod. This is explained in the article The Throne of Glory (http://www.biblewheel.com/wheel/spokes/Kaph_Glory.asp).

These two words – Throne and Glory – link to 1 Kings, the 11th Book, governed by Kaph. In 1 Kings the word 'throne' is maximized. In 1 Kings the kingdom of Israel finds its greatest glory in the reign of Solomon. He is a type of Christ the King who would sit on the 'Throne of His Glory' centuries later. It is said:
DRB 1Ch 29:11 Thine, O Lord, is magnificence, and power, and glory, and victory: and to thee is praise: for all that is in heaven, and in earth, is thine: thine is the kingdom, O Lord, and thou art above all princes.
DRB 1Ch 29:12 Thine are riches, and thine is glory [kavod], thou hast dominion over all, in thy hand is power [koach] and might: in thy hand greatness, and the empire of all things.
DRB 1Ch 29:23 And Solomon sat on the throne [kissey] of the Lord as king instead of David his father, and he pleased all: and all Israel obeyed him.
This strengthens the link with the theme of 'Power'. Of course when Christ speaks of the 'Throne of His Glory,' He lays implicit the idea of Power by means of the alphabetic connection obtained by the confluence of correlated Kaph KeyWords – Koach, Kavod and Kissey! The Power of the Throne of His Glory! So, although the word 'power' doesn’t explicitly appear in Matthew 19:28, it is taken for granted.

Similarly, the letter Kaph links to the second verse, Matthew 28:19. Please see it in its context:
Mat 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
Mat 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
Kaph is the eleventh Letter. When Christ gave power to the apostles, saying 'go, therefore, and make disciples', the total number of apostles just happened to be eleven, as Matthew explicitly tells!! This turns out to be a very intriguing numerical curiosity. The circumstances allowed for the appearance of an alphabetic link between the number of apostles and the letter that is related to 'power', 'throne' and 'glory'! 11 apostles and the 11 letter!

When Matthias completes the number again, we have the 12 apostles ready to sit on 12 'thrones' and preside over the Church. Picture the tribes of Israel going to Pentecost. Now read what is said in Psalm 122 on Spoke 12 of the Inner Cycle of Psalms:
Psa 122:1 I was glad when they said unto me, Let us go into the house of the LORD.
Psa 122:2 Our feet shall stand within thy gates, O Jerusalem.
Psa 122:3 Jerusalem is builded as a city that is compact together:
Psa 122:4 Whither the tribes go up, the tribes of the LORD, unto the testimony of Israel, to give thanks unto the name of the LORD.
Psa 122:5 For there are set thrones of judgment, the thrones of the house of David.
Psa 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
Psa 122:7 Peace be within thy walls, and prosperity within thy palaces.
Psa 122:8 For my brethren and companions' sakes, I will now say, Peace be within thee.
Psa 122:9 Because of the house of the LORD our God I will seek thy good.
Barely could imagine those who used to sing this pilgrimage Psalm on their way to Jerusalem that this song would be fulfilled in the greatest possible way. There they were: the thrones of judgment, the thrones of the house of David! The apostles were leading the newly born Church!

TheForgiven

08-28-2009, 08:46 AM

Brother Victor! I am absolutely amazed my brother. Totally amazed.

I think it's about time I started hitting the Old Testament hard and heavy. I love it how the Old Testament complements the New Testament.

I never saw the connection of Judas from the Old Testament.

It totally blows my mind how God communicated messages to the ancient Jewish fathers, and many of us today miss the meaning of the message, particularly with the "types" and "anti-types".

Thank you so much for your presentation.

Joe

Brother Les

08-28-2009, 10:42 AM

by Victor
Similarly, the letter Kaph links to the second verse, Matthew 28:19. Please see it in its context:
Mat 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
Mat 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

Kaph is the eleventh Letter. When Christ gave power to the apostles, saying “go, therefore, and make disciples”, the total number of apostles just happened to be eleven, as Matthew explicitly tells!! This turns out to be a very intriguing numerical curiosity. The circumstances allowed for the appearance of an alphabetic link between the number of apostles and the letter that is related to “power”, “throne” and “glory”! 11 apostles and the 11 letter!

When Matthias completes the number again, we have the 12 apostles ready to sit on 12 “thrones” and preside over the Church. Picture the tribes of Israel going to Pentecost. Now read what is said in Psalm 122 on Spoke 12 of the Inner Cycle of Psalms:
Psa 122:1 I was glad when they said unto me, Let us go into the house of the LORD.
Psa 122:2 Our feet shall stand within thy gates, O Jerusalem.
Psa 122:3 Jerusalem is builded as a city that is compact together:
Psa 122:4 Whither the tribes go up, the tribes of the LORD, unto the testimony of Israel, to give thanks unto the name of the LORD.
Psa 122:5 For there are set thrones of judgment, the thrones of the house of David.
Psa 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
Psa 122:7 Peace be within thy walls, and prosperity within thy palaces.
Psa 122:8 For my brethren and companions' sakes, I will now say, Peace be within thee.
Psa 122:9 Because of the house of the LORD our God I will seek thy good.

The diolog in the posts above this is concerning the choice and removal of Judas as one of the Apostels. It is with great interest to note of what seems to be in the 'who' of the 'twelve tribes' who are 'Sealed' in r
Revelation 7:4-9

When we look at the names of the sons of Jacob in Gen 35 :22- we see. As compared to those of Revelation 7. and we see a change... One has been removed and one has been added.... They are all 'sons' of Jacob..Why the change?

Genesis:.......................................... .....................Revalation:

Reuben (eldest who lost his Birthright)...........................Judah
Simeon............................................ .........................Reuben
Levi.............................................. ...........................Gad
Judah............................................. ..........................Asher
Issachar.......................................... .........................Nepthalim
Zebulun........................................... .........................Manasses (Added)
Joseph............................................ ..........................Simeon
Benjamin.......................................... ..........................Levi
Dan (Removed)......................................... .................Issachar
Naphtali.......................................... ...........................Zabulan
Gad............................................... ............................Joseph
Asher............................................. ............................Benjamin

Was 'Dan' 'removed' for the same reasons as 'Judas'?
Manasseh and Ephraim were adopted as Jacobs (father Israels) sons and both were to be give a 'double portion' of the Heritage, but 'they' were also given 'the Birthright'. 'Manasseh' was the elder son of Joseph, but it was to be the younger son of Joseph who was to be the Leader (over his brother) of The Birthright nations. I belive that 'Joseph' (name) is reinserted in Revelationto show that he is His Fathers favorite and that (he) Joseph/Ephraim, not only bring themselves (as a tribe of Israel), but also all of The Gentile Peoples that Ephraim turned to YHWH during and after his (Ephraim/House of Israel) Assyrian Disporia. Dan, (from what I understand) was 'a problem' child and may (or may not) have 'lost' his inheritance of tribal identity.

Ideas? thoughts?

Brother Les

Brother Les

CWH

08-28-2009, 11:02 AM

Hi Brother Les,

You post an interesting question which is constantly in my mind. When God chose the 12 apostles, were they according to the 12 tribes of Israel? My gut feeling is no But what if Judas was from the tribe of Dan and Matthias was from the tribe of Zebuun?, then that would explain why Dan was removed from the list of the 12 tribes of Israel and perhaps Matthias was from the tribe of Zebulun Manasses and therefore he was added in. If so, it will seem unfair to the tribe of Dan in which they would suffer just for the mistake of one of their men.

But the main issue that still lingers in my mind is :
* Why was God so careless in choosing Judas in the first place as one of the original 12th apostle? He should have chosen Matthias instead in the first place.

Many Blessings to you.

Victor

08-28-2009, 11:30 AM

Brother Victor! I am absolutely amazed my brother. Totally amazed.

I think it's about time I started hitting the Old Testament hard and heavy. I love it how the Old Testament complements the New Testament.

There are endless treasures kept in the interconnections between the Old and the New Testaments!! The Old is the New concealed and the New is the Old revealed, as St. Augustine used to say. They form a "Bible Wheel", like the ancient Christian writers noticed: it is "a wheel within a wheel," that touch and interact with each other and get our head spinning with so many links.

I never saw the connection of Judas from the Old Testament.

Oh, and there's much more, as always. David specifically said:

Psa 41:9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.
He was referring to the events in 2 Samuel concerning Ahithophel. Christ took these exact words from David and applied to Himself:

Joh 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
This was fulfilled in Judas:

Joh 13:26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.
Joh 13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

It totally blows my mind how God communicated messages to the ancient Jewish fathers, and many of us today miss the meaning of the message, particularly with the "types" and "anti-types".

Thank you so much for your presentation.

Joe

Right on the money! That is one of the main problems with biblical interpretation today. The type/antitype relationship forms the primary meat of God's message in the form of the Bible. If we miss typology, we just don't understand Scripture as a whole.

We must study the Bible with these interconnections in mind. That's what the study of the "Bible Wheel" is all about. And the Bible as a whole is a type of Christ the Word of God.

It is really mind-blowing!

Victor

08-28-2009, 01:44 PM

When we look at the names of the sons of Jacob in Gen 35 :22- we see. As compared to those of Revelation 7. and we see a change... One has been removed and one has been added.... They are all 'sons' of Jacob..Why the change?

Genesis:.......................................... .....................Revalation:

Reuben (eldest who lost his Birthright)...........................Judah
Simeon............................................ .........................Reuben
Levi.............................................. ...........................Gad
Judah............................................. ..........................Asher
Issachar.......................................... .........................Nepthalim
Zebulun........................................... .........................Manasses (Added)
Joseph............................................ ..........................Simeon
Benjamin.......................................... ..........................Levi
Dan (Removed)......................................... .................Issachar
Naphtali.......................................... ...........................Zabulan
Gad............................................... ............................Joseph
Asher............................................. ............................Benjamin

Was 'Dan' 'removed' for the same reasons as 'Judas'?
Manasseh and Ephraim were adopted as Jacobs (father Israels) sons and both were to be give a 'double portion' of the Heritage, but 'they' were also given 'the Birthright'. 'Manasseh' was the elder son of Joseph, but it was to be the younger son of Joseph who was to be the Leader (over his brother) of The Birthright nations. I belive that 'Joseph' (name) is reinserted in Revelationto show that he is His Fathers favorite and that (he) Joseph/Ephraim, not only bring themselves (as a tribe of Israel), but also all of The Gentile Peoples that Ephraim turned to YHWH during and after his (Ephraim/House of Israel) Assyrian Disporia. Dan, (from what I understand) was 'a problem' child and may (or may not) have 'lost' his inheritance of tribal identity.

Ideas? thoughts?

Brother Les

Hello Brother!

The manifold wisdom of God reveals several reasons for this, I think. I don't have the time to go into all of them, but I could point to at least one reason, since it has to do with the themes that are being discussed.

There seems to be a parallelism between the 12 names of the tribes and the 12 apostles. John pairs the names of the apostles with those of the tribes in Revelation 21.
Rev 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
Rev 21:13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
And just like there was one of the twelve mentioned in Matthew 19:28 that didn't recieve his honorific mention among the names of the twelve apostles, likewise there was one tribe who didn't have its name included in the NT tribal list.

Despite the tribes of Israel having fallen all into sin, the tribe of Dan early on became distinguished by its idolatry.
Jdg 18:30 And the children of Dan set up the graven image: and Jonathan, the son of Gershom, the son of Manasseh, he and his sons were priests to the tribe of Dan until the day of the captivity of the land.

1Ki 12:28 Whereupon the king took counsel, and made two calves of gold, and said unto them, It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem: behold thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
1Ki 12:29 And he set the one in Bethel, and the other put he in Dan.
1Ki 12:30 And this thing became a sin: for the people went to worship before the one, even unto Dan.
Therefore Dan didn't get its name on the list and was substituted by another name, just as Judas was.

But there is a great irony into this. Matthew 19:28 says:
Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Judas was deprived of the privilege of "judging" the people of God. This links to the name of Dan, which means Judge! The one who was supposed to "judge" didn't judge!

Just as the twelve apostles would judge over the twelve tribes (the Church), the twelve tribes would judge the world.
1Co 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world?
The parallelism is impressive. Judas is to the 12 apostles as Dan is to the "12 tribes".

The name Daniel has the same root of Dan. (Dani = my judge; El = God; Daniel = My Judge is God) And only Daniel records the following prophecy:
Dan 7:22 Judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
Even the name of Daniel links to the idea of the judgment of the saints! God judges thorough His saints.

Please let me know if this makes sense. We can go deeper as we find time.

Psa 149:9 To execute upon them the judgment written:
this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.

Rose

08-28-2009, 06:49 PM

Hello Brother!

The manifold wisdom of God reveals several reasons for this, I think. I don't have the time to go into all of them, but I could point to at least one reason, since it has to do with the themes that are being discussed.

There seems to be a parallelism between the 12 names of the tribes and the 12 apostles. John pairs the names of the apostles with those of the tribes in Revelation 21.
Rev 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
Rev 21:13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
And just like there was one of the twelve mentioned in Matthew 19:28 that didn't recieve his honorific mention among the names of the twelve apostles, likewise there was one tribe who didn't have its name included in the NT tribal list.

Despite the tribes of Israel having fallen all into sin, the tribe of Dan early on became distinguished by its idolatry.
Jdg 18:30 And the children of Dan set up the graven image: and Jonathan, the son of Gershom, the son of Manasseh, he and his sons were priests to the tribe of Dan until the day of the captivity of the land.

1Ki 12:28 Whereupon the king took counsel, and made two calves of gold, and said unto them, It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem: behold thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
1Ki 12:29 And he set the one in Bethel, and the other put he in Dan.
1Ki 12:30 And this thing became a sin: for the people went to worship before the one, even unto Dan.
Therefore Dan didn't get its name on the list and was substituted by another name, just as Judas was.

But there is a great irony into this. Matthew 19:28 says:
Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Judas was deprived of the privilege of "judging" the people of God. This links to the name of Dan, which means Judge! The one who was supposed to "judge" didn't judge!

Just as the twelve apostles would judge over the twelve tribes (the Church), the twelve tribes would judge the world.
1Co 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world?
The parallelism is impressive. Judas is to the 12 apostles as Dan is to the "12 tribes".

The name Daniel has the same root of Dan. (Dani = my judge; El = God; Daniel = My Judge is God) And only Daniel records the following prophecy:
Dan 7:22 Judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
Even the name of Daniel links to the idea of the judgment of the saints! God judges thorough His saints.

Please let me know if this makes sense. We can go deeper as we find time.

Psa 149:9 To execute upon them the judgment written:
this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.

Hi Victor,

Excellent connections! It all make perfect sense...the one who was chosen to judge his people, had his place of judgment removed.

Gen. 49:16 Dan shall judge his people, as one of the tribes of Israel.

God Bless

Rose

Victor

08-31-2009, 01:16 PM

Please compare the following texts:

Book 19:

Psa 122:3 Jerusalem is builded as a city that is compact together:
Psa 122:4 Whither the tribes go up, the tribes of the LORD, unto the testimony of Israel, to give thanks unto the name of the LORD.
Psa 122:5 For there are set thrones of judgment, the thrones of the house of David.
Matthew 19:

Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
The highlighted words above are found together only in those two Bible passages and also in Luke 22:30, which is parallel to Matthew 19:28. There is a direct correspondence between Matthew 19 and the Psalms (Book 19). The 28 chapters of Matthew perfectly track with the books of the Bible from Genesis to Hosea (Book 28). This is one more instance of the phenomenon.

Rose

08-31-2009, 02:23 PM

Please compare the following texts:

Book 19:
Psa 122:3 Jerusalem is builded as a city that is compact together:
Psa 122:4 Whither the tribes go up, the tribes of the LORD, unto the testimony of Israel, to give thanks unto the name of the LORD.
Psa 122:5 For there are set thrones of judgment, the thrones of the house of David.
Matthew 19:
Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
The highlighted words above are found together only in those two Bible passages and also in Luke 22:30, which is parallel to Matthew 19:28. There is a direct correspondence between Matthew 19 and the Psalms (Book 19). The 28 chapters of Matthew perfectly track with the books of the Bible from Genesis to Hosea (Book 28). This is one more instance of the phenomenon.

Excellent find Victor! :clap2:

Another great example of the "Inner Wheel", Bible Book number - Book Chapter number "Keylinks".

Rose

Brother Les

09-01-2009, 09:59 AM

Thank-you Victor on your thoughts and Scripture references on the removal of Dan/Judas, tribe/Apostle. It brings to mind of what the Apostle Paul was saying about "all Israel will Saved" and "not all who say they are Israel are Israel"...

It would seem that 'bloodline' does not carry as much weight as some 'christians' claim that it does in pertaining to 'Israel'....

Blessings

Brother Les

Victor

09-01-2009, 11:01 AM

Victor

09-01-2009, 11:02 AM

Excellent find Victor! :clap2:

Another great example of the "Inner Wheel", Bible Book number - Book Chapter number "Keylinks".

Rose

Thanks Rose! The link is actually stronger, because there is also the common mention of 'judgment' in Psalm 122 and Matthew 19!

Victor

09-02-2009, 11:09 AM

The seats of judgment that are given to the apostles find a parallel in the Davidic kingdom, as we have seen. 'The house of David' mentioned in Psalm 122 refers to the Davidic dynasty. Salomon was the Davidic King per excellence. He had a group of twelve officers over all Israel:
1Ki 4:7 And Solomon had twelve officers over all Israel, which provided victuals for the king and his household: each man his month in a year made provision.
At one point a king in the line of David commissioned others to also judge together with him:
2Chronicles 19:5 And he [King Jehoshaphat] set judges in the land throughout all the fenced cities of Judah, city by city,
2Ch 19:6 And said to the judges, Take heed what ye do: for ye judge not for man, but for the LORD, who is with you in the judgment.
2Ch 19:7 Wherefore now let the fear of the LORD be upon you; take heed and do it: for there is no iniquity with the LORD our God, nor respect of persons, nor taking of gifts.
2Ch 19:8 Moreover in Jerusalem did Jehoshaphat set of the Levites, and of the priests, and of the chief of the fathers of Israel, for the judgment of the LORD, and for controversies, when they returned to Jerusalem.
2Ch 19:9 And he charged them, saying, Thus shall ye do in the fear of the LORD, faithfully, and with a perfect heart.
2Ch 19:10 And what cause soever shall come to you of your brethren that dwell in their cities, between blood and blood, between law and commandment, statutes and judgments, ye shall even warn them that they trespass not against the LORD, and so wrath come upon you, and upon your brethren: this do, and ye shall not trespass.
Jehoshaphat introduced a reformed judicial system in his kingdom. By the way, this action coheres with the meaning of his name: 'The Lord is Judge'. He desired that the judges commissioned by him would execute 'the judgment of the Lord'.

Of course this is a type of the Davidic Kingdom under the New Covenant, with Christ as King. It is modeled after the Old Testament type. The delegation of judgment power in 2 Chronicles 19 finds its antitype in the delegation of judgment power in Matthew 19.

Rose

09-02-2009, 12:07 PM

The seats of judgment that are given to the apostles find a parallel in the Davidic kingdom, as we have seen. “The house of David” mentioned in Psalm 122 refers to the Davidic dynasty. Salomon was the Davidic King per excellence. He had a group of twelve officers over all Israel:
1Ki 4:7 And Solomon had twelve officers over all Israel, which provided victuals for the king and his household: each man his month in a year made provision.
At one point a king in the line of David commissioned others to also judge together with him:
2Chronicles 19:5 And he [King Jehoshaphat] set judges in the land throughout all the fenced cities of Judah, city by city,
2Ch 19:6 And said to the judges, Take heed what ye do: for ye judge not for man, but for the LORD, who is with you in the judgment.
2Ch 19:7 Wherefore now let the fear of the LORD be upon you; take heed and do it: for there is no iniquity with the LORD our God, nor respect of persons, nor taking of gifts.
2Ch 19:8 Moreover in Jerusalem did Jehoshaphat set of the Levites, and of the priests, and of the chief of the fathers of Israel, for the judgment of the LORD, and for controversies, when they returned to Jerusalem.
2Ch 19:9 And he charged them, saying, Thus shall ye do in the fear of the LORD, faithfully, and with a perfect heart.
2Ch 19:10 And what cause soever shall come to you of your brethren that dwell in their cities, between blood and blood, between law and commandment, statutes and judgments, ye shall even warn them that they trespass not against the LORD, and so wrath come upon you, and upon your brethren: this do, and ye shall not trespass.
Jehoshaphat introduced a reformed judicial system in his kingdom. By the way, this action coheres with the meaning of his name: “The Lord is Judge”. He desired that the judges commissioned by him would execute “the judgment of the Lord”.

Of course this is a type of the Davidic Kingdom under the New Covenant, with Christ as King. It is modeled after the Old Testament type. The delegation of judgment power in 2 Chronicles 19 finds its antitype in the delegation of judgment power in Matthew 19.

Hey Victor, I just noticed something I hadn't seen before, and that is that 1 Kings 4:7 is an ancient confirmation of 12 months in a year, and the only other place in Scripture (that I can find) that speaks specifically of 12 months in a year is on the diameter of Spoke 11, and that is Spoke 22.
Rev. 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

So we have a Spoke 11, book 11 <> Spoke 22, Chapter 22 link with twelve and month. Amazing!

Rose

Victor

09-03-2009, 08:24 AM

Hey Victor, I just noticed something I hadn't seen before, and that is that 1 Kings 4:7 is an ancient confirmation of 12 months in a year, and the only other place in Scripture (that I can find) that speaks specifically of 12 months in a year is on the diameter of Spoke 11, and that is Spoke 22.
Rev. 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.So we have a Spoke 11, book 11 <> Spoke 22, Chapter 22 link with twelve and month. Amazing!

Rose

Hey, you are being really attentive to themes in Scripture! I too cannot find any other biblical references to there being 12 months in a year. These seem to be the only two! Both of them are found on the 11th Diameter of the Bible Wheel - Spokes 11 and 22 (1 Kings and Revelation). It is a KeyLink formed by (twelve, month), as you note.

This is interesting because one may expect to find it associated with the Number 12, for there are 12 months in a year... But it appears in the final diameter maybe because it has to do with completion, fullness of time: there are 12 months that make up a whole year. So 12 months comprehend a full cycle and that's what we see on Diameter 11. When we reach the 11th Diameter we come full circle.

Strikingly, both 1 Kings 4:7 and Revelation 22:2 explicitly refer to the theme of nourishment: in 1 Kings Solomon makes arrangement for the provision of food ("victuals") in his kindgom and in Revelation the tree of life provide food ("fruits") for the Kingdom of God. This strengthens the connection between the two.

Interestingly, the twelve months correspond and link to the twelve zodiacal signs in the sky, and its standard representation is circular, as the Bible Wheel.

http://www.solarnavigator.net/history/astrology/astrology_images/Zodiac_Wheel_sixth_century_mosaic_Beit_Alpha.jpg
Wheel of the Zodiac: 6th century mosaic pavement adapting Greek-byzantine elements from a synagogue, Beit Alpha, Israel

So it's truly fitting that the twelve months in the yearly cycle are linked to the full circle of the Wheel. The KeyLink yielded by the specific set (twelve, month) allude to the twelve-month cycle! This fact seems to unite the symbol of the Alphabetic Circle (22 signs) with the circular Map of the Constellations, the Chart of Heaven (12 signs). It is like the circular watch that at the same time marks the hours and the minutes.

This further links to the other appearances of "twelve months" in Scripture! There is another pair of references to twelve months in the Bible but they do not refer to the year, but to a simple 12-month period:
Esther 2:12 Now when every maid's turn was come to go in to king Ahasuerus, after that she had been twelve months, according to the manner of the women, (for so were the days of their purifications accomplished, to wit, six months with oil of myrrh, and six months with sweet odours, and with other things for the purifying of the women.)

Daniel 4:29 At the end of twelve months he walked in the palace of the kingdom of Babylon.

Please compare them with the other pair that we examined:
Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

1 Kings 4:7 And Solomon had twelve officers over all Israel, which provided victuals for the king and his household: each man his month in a year made provision.These verses seem to be nicely arranged. They are two pairs, one linked by (twelve, month), the other by "twelve months". And there's a correspondence between the elements in each pair: Esther 2:12 and Revelation 22:2 display a very similar digital structure. They involve the Numbers 2, 12 and 22. And indeed we have been appreciating the correlation between 2 cycles: one of 12 months and another of 22 letters!

The verses also touch upon similar themes: Esther undergoes a preparation to purify herself in order to meet her future husband. Similarly, the Bride in Revelation 21 is prepared to meet her Bridegroom, the Lamb of God.

Likewise it goes in Daniel 4:29 and 1 Kings 4:7: they exhibit the same (4,7) digital structure in cycles of 22 letters. (29 = 7 + 22) Number 4 is related to Time (cf. Creative Day 4) and Number 7 signifies Completion.

And both verses (in Daniel and 1 Kings) refer to historical events in the lives of two archetypal kings, Nebuchadnezzar and Solomon.

The Twelve Months promise to be a fascinating thematic thread in Scripture!

Rose

09-04-2009, 07:41 AM

Hey, you are being really attentive to themes in Scripture! I too cannot find any other biblical references to there being 12 months in a year. These seem to be the only two! Both of them are found on the 11th Diameter of the Bible Wheel - Spokes 11 and 22 (1 Kings and Revelation). It is a KeyLink formed by (twelve, month), as you note.

This is interesting because one may expect to find it associated with the Number 12, for there are 12 months in a year... But it appears in the final diameter maybe because it has to do with completion, fullness of time: there are 12 months that make up a whole year. So 12 months comprehend a full cycle and that's what we see on Diameter 11. When we reach the 11th Diameter we come full circle.

Strikingly, both 1 Kings 4:7 and Revelation 22:2 explicitly refer to the theme of nourishment: in 1 Kings Solomon makes arrangement for the provision of food ("victuals") in his kindgom and in Revelation the tree of life provide food ("fruits") for the Kingdom of God. This strengthens the connection between the two.

Interestingly, the twelve months correspond and link to the twelve zodiacal signs in the sky, and its standard representation is circular, as the Bible Wheel.

http://www.solarnavigator.net/history/astrology/astrology_images/Zodiac_Wheel_sixth_century_mosaic_Beit_Alpha.jpg
Wheel of the Zodiac: 6th century mosaic pavement adapting Greek-byzantine elements from a synagogue, Beit Alpha, Israel

So it's truly fitting that the twelve months in the yearly cycle are linked to the full circle of the Wheel. The KeyLink yielded by the specific set (twelve, month) allude to the twelve-month cycle! This fact seems to unite the symbol of the Alphabetic Circle (22 signs) with the circular Map of the Constellations, the Chart of Heaven (12 signs). It is like the circular watch that at the same time marks the hours and the minutes.

This further links to the other appearances of "twelve months" in Scripture! There is another pair of references to twelve months in the Bible but they do not refer to the year, but to a simple 12-month period:
Esther 2:12 Now when every maid's turn was come to go in to king Ahasuerus, after that she had been twelve months, according to the manner of the women, (for so were the days of their purifications accomplished, to wit, six months with oil of myrrh, and six months with sweet odours, and with other things for the purifying of the women.)
Daniel 4:29 At the end of twelve months he walked in the palace of the kingdom of Babylon. Please compare them with the other pair that we examined:
Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
1 Kings 4:7 And Solomon had twelve officers over all Israel, which provided victuals for the king and his household: each man his month in a year made provision.These verses seem to be nicely arranged. They are two pairs, one linked by (twelve, month), the other by "twelve months". And there's a correspondence between the elements in each pair: Esther 2:12 and Revelation 22:2 display a very similar digital structure. They involve the Numbers 2, 12 and 22. And indeed we have been appreciating the correlation between 2 cycles: one of 12 months and another of 22 letters!

The verses also touch upon similar themes: Esther undergoes a preparation to purify herself in order to meet her future husband. Similarly, the Bride in Revelation 21 is prepared to meet her Bridegroom, the Lamb of God.

Likewise it goes in Daniel 4:29 and 1 Kings 4:7: they exhibit the same (4,7) digital structure in cycles of 22 letters. (29 = 7 + 22) Number 4 is related to Time (cf. Creative Day 4) and Number 7 signifies Completion.

And both verses (in Daniel and 1 Kings) refer to historical events in the lives of two archetypal kings, Nebuchadnezzar and Solomon.

The Twelve Months promise to be a fascinating thematic thread in Scripture!

I too, noticed the connection with food, but there's more.....notice the theme of the nourishment being made "provision" for the sustenance of the kings household in 1 Kings, and the fruit being provided for the "healing of the nations" in Rev.22, which are the King of Kings "households". :D

1Ki 4:7 And Solomon had twelve officers over all Israel, which provided victuals for the king and his household: each man his month in a year made provision.

Rev. 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

These are very deep connections, and I'm sure there's much more to find.

Rose