Good and Evil

[CWH]

Hi,

This may be word play but it is certainly a curiosity:

Good minus an "o" is God,
Evil add a "d" is Devil,
Add the "d" and "o" together and we have Do Good or Do Evil.

Add Good and God together and we have Good God,
Add Evil and Devil together and we have Evil Devil.


What is Evil?
Psalm 36:3-5

3 The words of his mouth are wicked and deceitful;
he has ceased to be wise and to do good.

4 Even on his bed he plots evil;
he commits himself to a sinful course
and does not reject what is wrong.


What is Good?
Proverbs 14:21-23

21 He who despises his neighbor sins,
but blessed is he who is kind to the needy.

22 Do not those who plot evil go astray?
But those who plan what is good find [a] love and faithfulness.


Take Home Messages:
Job 34:4
Let us discern for ourselves what is right; let us learn together what is good.

Romans 12:9
Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.

Romans 12:17
Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody.


God Blessings to all.:pray:

[CWH]

Hi,

In Genesis 2, we read:

8 Now the LORD God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. 9 And the LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil...........
15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

I used to ask myself, why did God put the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil in the first place in the Garden of Eden? If God did not put the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden then Eve and Adam would not sinned and all of us will not die and we will be living ever-lasting life. There will be no sin in this world. I have yet to receive a satisfactory answer. Anyone?

God Blessings to all.

[gregoryfl]

Ultimately God will have to reveal that to you my brother. I could share an answer that has satisfied me, but you will most likely not be satisfied, and we will end up going back and forth as is the case with the discussion on eschatology.

Ron

[CWH]

Hi Ron,

Nice to see you. How are you? Welcome back to the forum.:yo: Long Time No See! (Chinese way of greeting)

Nobody light a lamp and hide it under a bushel. I believe not only I but many of us in this forum would like to know the answer. Why do you think I would not like your answer?

OK, I promise there won't be a back and forth discusssion between you and me if that is what you prefer. Sometimes back and forth discusssion can be exciting.:D

Let's have a look.

God Blessings to you.

[gregoryfl]

Hey,

Thanks for the welcome back, although I have never really left. :) I just check the boards to see what is posted of late, and just haven't felt the desire to get into it with regard to the postings on eschatology. I'm still hoping for a resurrection of my series of discussions on the nature of God.

I'm not against going back and forth. God does use what we say to reveal things of himself to others. One thing though, that I keep in my mind, asking myself, is: When I'm sharing back and forth with someone who differs from me in their understanding of something, am I seeing them after the flesh? Or am I seeing them as they truly are?

If I see them after the flesh, as someone who I feel no bond with, as an opponent I'm trying to convince that they are wrong and I am right, and feeling frustrated that they are just not getting it (and I have seen that from time to time on every message board I have been on, including this one) then I am looking at them in a way opposed to our Lord, for he inspired Paul to speak the reality that because of the new creation, we now no longer look at ANYONE after the flesh, not even Jesus himself.

So I do not mind sharing what I have come to understand if that is what you truly want. I just always need to make sure that I do it according to the reality that you are my brother in the Lord, a new creation, someone I am eternally bonded to, part of a body that will never cease to exist, and that whatever I receive is not for myself as much as it is unto yourself and others in his body. I count you as precious, for you are, and not as someone to debate with. That is all I wish to avoid. Hope this makes sense.

with much love,

Ron

[CWH]

Thanks Ron, for thinking so highly of me.

Me too, I do not wish to go on a protracted debate that seems no end. To me it's a waste of time and I would just stop abruptly.

I don't see people who differs from my view as opponents but as mutual opportunity. What I mean by mutual opportunity is that if one side is proven wrong then move over to the other side. In other words, if events in the future seems to prove that futurists are right, it's still not too late to move over to the futurist's side; same as with preterism; if the preterists seem right as future events unfold, I will move over to the preterist's side. But so far, I'm not convince of preterism. I cannot say I am 100% right in my futurist's views, neither can the preterists say they are 100% right in their preterist's views.

OK, back to the cruz of the matter, I am still hung in suspension; what is your answer to my question of why God put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden in the first place? Why not just put the tree of knowledge of good only in the Garden of Eden? Well........

God Blessings to you.:)

[gregoryfl]

Ok, I will share an article I wrote concerning this very thing. It is a bit long, but hopefully it will at the very least give you an understanding as to what I believe.

Gen 2:9 Out of the ground Yahweh God made every tree to grow that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the middle of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

While these have, for the most part, been understood as two separate trees, I believe they are the same tree, and the difference they represent is the difference between man operating in the flesh toward God, and God operating in the spirit toward man. These two trees are two facets of our God, which we can trace progressively throughout scripture. The first picture God paints of these two facets is of course recorded here in Genesis. We have no problem identifying the tree of life as representing the life of God, for God is life. However, by progressive revelation, God shows us the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is also representative of God. In other words, just as God is life and is the source of it, he is also the source of good AND evil, and that which results from it, death.

Job 2:10 But he said to her, 'You speak as one of the foolish women would speak. What? Shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?'

Jer 32:42 For thus says Yahweh: Like as I have brought all this great evil on this people, so will I bring on them all the good that I have promised them.

Mic 1:12 For the inhabitant of Maroth waits anxiously for good, because evil has come down from Yahweh to the gate of Jerusalem.

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness. I make peace, and create evil. I am Yahweh, who does all these things.

Lam 3:38 Doesn’t evil and good come out of the mouth of the Most High?

Consider that God acknowledged what the serpent knew already, that God knew good and evil, even before Adam and Eve sinned.

Gen 3:5 for God knows that in the day you eat it, your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.'

Gen 3:22 Yahweh God said, 'Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil."

I know most will object to this, because they do not understand what evil is. Let me just say that evil is not the same as sin, or wickedness. Sin and wickedness are evil, but evil is not necessarily those things. Good and evil come from God, but not sin and wickedness. There is a big difference.

The word "and" that is inserted between the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is not used here to indicate two separate trees in the middle of the garden. There is only one tree specifically mentioned in the middle of the garden here. It is the tree of life. The one tree has two aspects, one as a tree of life, "and" the other as a tree of knowledge. They are one tree in essence, with two different results that grow out of it, coming from how man would relate to the tree. The tree is meant for life, but it ended up resulting in death. We will see this also concerning the next picture God gives, the law covenant.

We can find this same idea of two different things spoken of as coming from one essence in other scriptures. Consider the following:

Gen 9:2 And the fear of you and dismay due to you shall come on every living animal of the earth, [aspect one covering everything] even on every flyer of the heavens, and in all which is moving on the ground, and in all the fishes of the sea. [aspect 2]

Psa 31:11 Because of all my foes I became a reproach, [aspect 1] Even to my neighbors, [aspect 2] exceedingly so, And an alarm to my close acquaintances; Those seeing me in the street would bolt away from me."

Psa 71:23 My lips [aspect 1] shall be jubilant when I make melody to You, Even my soul, [aspect 2] which You have ransomed."

In each example, we can see that although 2 separate things are being spoken of, they relate together to, and flow out of, one thing-living animals, foes, and lips. I bolded the word "even" because it is the same prefix "and" that is put in front of the phrase "and the tree of knowledge..."

So then, here is another way to translate the verse in Genesis:

Gen 2:9 Out of the ground Yahweh God made every tree to grow that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life [aspect 1] also in the middle of the garden, even the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. [aspect 2]

Another point which I believe bears this out can be found in Eve's response to the serpent. here is what she said:

Gen 3:3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat of it, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’'

Remember, there was only one tree specifically said to be in the midst of the garden, the tree of life. If the tree of the knowledge of good and evil were a separate tree side by side with the tree of life, then Eve would have made that distinction. She did not. She did not even name the tree for she knew there was only one there, a specific one, the only one, in the middle. Interestingly, in every other depiction from every other culture, there is no mention of two trees, only one, through which the first man and woman came to be as they did.

It is assumed that God told Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of life. He did not. Think carefully here. This is exactly what he told Adam:

Gen 2:16,17 Yahweh God commanded the man, saying, 'Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it; for in the day that you eat of it you will surely die.'

Here God highlights the one aspect of the tree, that from which grew the knowledge of good and evil. For God to say not to eat from it, he was, in effect saying not to try to gain anything by fleshly efforts. One cannot gain life through the flesh. The tree of life was there as a means for them to continue living, as long as they did not disobey the one command they were given. I believe for them to take of it as they did is to do what religion has attempted ever since, to reach God, or gain life, by our own efforts, when God himself is the only one who sustains it by himself, for he is life.

That tree represented God in his fullness. The other trees they could eat from freely were specifically to satisfy their physical hunger. However, in relating to God himself, he was beginning to demonstrate that to try to relate to God according to the flesh, by reaching out our hands, using our efforts, to partake of God, or gain anything from him, will only result in death, not life. We will see that the same held true with regard to the law covenant. Instead of bringing life as they were told if they kept it, because they tried through their own efforts, it only brought death.

When God put man and woman in that garden, they were alive. They were made in flesh. God breathed of himself into them, his breath, or spirit, and in that state they were alive to God. Then when God gave the commandment to Adam, there was something that sought to be born, called sin. It did not yet exist in the world, but that was about to change. It sought to find expression, and that vehicle of expression would prove to be man's flesh. The commandment came and sin used it to trick Eve into disobeying the very command given by God. Paul wrote of this same thing in his own life:

Rom 7:8,9,11 But sin, finding occasion through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of coveting. For apart from the law, sin is dead. I was alive apart from the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died...for sin, finding occasion through the commandment, deceived me, and through it killed me.

The serpent provided the seed-temptation, which united with the egg-lust, and it brought sin into the world, into the flesh of man.

Jas 1:14,15 But each one is tempted, when he is drawn away by his own lust, and enticed. Then the lust, when it has conceived, bears sin; and the sin, when it is full grown, brings forth death.

Adam and Eve, fleshly creatures, although their spirit was alive, were given two choices-Life, and death. A precedent was established in that garden, one that Paul wrote of, a principle that has always been true throughout history, and it is this:

Rom 8:7,8 the mind of the flesh is hostile towards God; for it is not subject to God’s law, neither indeed can it be. Those who are in the flesh can’t please God.

Even in the garden, with both spirit and flesh alive, they found out that the flesh was indeed hostile toward God. They came to believe that God was holding out on them, depriving them of something they thought they wanted-knowledge. Thus we see the truth that the tree which was meant to bring life, when presented to the flesh, brought the opposite, which is death. We will trace this same theme now a bit further down in history, in the next part.

[gregoryfl]

These two trees are further pictured and defined in the law covenant given to fleshly Israel. The essence of the law is contained on two tablets of stone. There are two because they represent the two trees in the garden, which represents two facets of God, life and death. They were written on stone by God himself because stone pictures God, who does not change.

This one law contained the same thing that the two trees did. Notice that the same choices are given to Israel:

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse: therefore choose life, that you may live, you and your seed;

That law was like the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, which is another way of saying knowledge of sin.

Rom 3:20 For through the law comes the knowledge of sin.
Rom 7:7,8 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? May it never be! However, I wouldn’t have known sin, except through the law. For I wouldn’t have known coveting, unless the law had said, 'You shall not covet.' But sin, finding occasion through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of coveting.

See the connection? To know the commandment "not to covet," is both good AND evil. Good, in that it is good not to covet. Evil, in that it defines what in fact is evil, in this case, sin, and brings knowledge of it by experience as it is produced by sin through the commandment. Therefore, the knowledge of good and evil is the knowledge of sin, represented at first by the two trees, then further by the two tablets of stone.

Unlike Adam and Eve, fleshly Israel was dead to God. Their flesh was alive, but their spirit was dead. Of course, Adam brought that about through his sin. So here we have Israel after the flesh being yoked to the Law. They were given the choice to obey it and live, being blessed, or to disobey it and die, being cursed. Why could they not keep it? For the same reason that Adam and Eve could not keep the first commandment. Law and flesh do not mix. Notice how these scriptures relate:

Rom 8:7,8 because the mind of the flesh is hostile towards God; for it is not subject to God’s law, neither indeed can it be. Those who are in the flesh can’t please God.

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, that you may not do the things that you desire.

Rom 8:3 For what the law couldn’t do, in that it was weak through the flesh...

God is spirit, and anything of his nature is spirit, spiritual. Flesh cannot relate to spirit, which is to say flesh cannot relate to God. The reason is because flesh has desires which are totally different from those of the spirit. They cannot coexist in peace. This is why God said in his law to Israel,

Deu 22:10 You shall not plow with an ox and a donkey together.

It is from this law that Paul spoke of this spiritual reality:

2Co 6:14 Don’t be unequally yoked with unbelievers, for what fellowship have righteousness and iniquity? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?

So what does this have to do with Israel's not being able to keep the law? That law, just as the two trees, represents God himself. While we hear many things about the law, there is one truth that is rarely mentioned, and it is a little statement Paul makes in Romans 7:

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual...

According to the context, he is referring to the same law he has been speaking about all along in the 7th chapter, one of which is "do not covet." Now it makes so much sense. To give the law, something spiritual, to Israel, people who were fleshly, in marriage, yoking them together, was an uneven yoke. It would only produce the opposite of what it was intended to produce. This is why Paul said,

Rom 7:10 The commandment, which was for life, this I found to be for death;

Can you see the two trees represented here?

1) The tree of life...the commandment which was for life

2) The tree of knowledge....I found to be for death.

The same law containing both life and death. God himself, from whom life and death come. God was here teaching man a valuable lesson. From Adam all the way through until Jesus came, man has tried to relate to God according to the flesh and has always fallen short of that goal. It is an impossible situation.

Because of this marriage covenant, according to God himself, that marriage was for life.

Rom 7:1-3 Or don’t you know, brothers (for I speak to men who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man for as long as he lives? For the woman that has a husband is bound by law to the husband while he lives, but if the husband dies, she is discharged from the law of the husband. So then if, while the husband lives, she is joined to another man, she would be called an adulteress. But if the husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is no adulteress, though she is joined to another man.

A death had to occur in order for what God wanted all along to take place, which was to be united with man in spirit. In this example, we are the woman, and God is the husband, and the law is what bound them together, flesh to spirit, an unequal yoke. The husband had to die in order for there to free the woman from the law so she could marry another. But another issue needed to be dealt with. Man's spirit was dead, while his flesh was alive. Who he truly was was spoken of as,

dead in transgressions and sins Eph 2:1

Alive physically, dead spiritually. God is spirit, so in order to bring about God's desire, he brought about a reversal.

Rom 7:4 Therefore, my brothers, you also were made dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you would be joined to another, to him who was raised from the dead, that we might bring forth fruit to God.

God, in the person of Christ, died, thus freeing man from the law to remarry. However, he also did something more. The flesh of Jesus, his body, died, and in that death, our flesh died as well.

Rom 6:6,7 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be in bondage to sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin.

Gal 5:24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts.

Col 3:3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

So that part of us that was against God was killed, emptied of the power within it. At the same time, the life of God, his spirit, was joined to our spirit, causing our once dead spirit to live once again. However, unlike Adam and Eve, the life was no longer our own, but the very life, the very spirit of Christ himself. He is our life. We are now one spirit with him, evenly yoked by the new covenant.

1Co 6:17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit.

Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me. That life which I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me.

The reversal was complete:

Gal 2:19 For I, through the law, died to the law, that I might live to God.

Rom 8:10 If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

This is pictured as well in the book of Ezekiel, where he is shown a valley of dry, dead bones. Notice what happens:

Eze 37:5 Thus says the Lord Yahweh to these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and you shall live.

This is reminiscent of what occurred back in the garden of Eden, when the first man and woman were alive. Their spirit died the day they ate because the Lord removed his spirit from them. This breath is his spirit, for Ezekiel speaks again about causing them to live, this time saying:

Eze 37:14 I will put my Spirit in you, and you shall live...

The breath, his spirit, which keeps all things alive, breathed on man's spirit, causing him to live. He lived both physically and spiritually. When man sinned, God removed his breath, his spirit, from man's spirit, and man died that day. He was now just as the other animals, alive only physically. Here, through Jesus, God once again breathes his spirit into man, once again causing his people to live. The house of Israel, alive physically, yet dead spiritually, would now be alive spiritually, as God intended from the beginning.

Now the picture is almost complete. We have seen that God, the giver of life and of death, who is spirit, taught a great lesson in creation. He showed that spirit cannot be yoked to flesh, but only to spirit. The first man was misled into thinking otherwise. He chose to relate to that side of God which would only bring death, thinking he was doing it for life. He rebelled against God, just as flesh always does, and suffered the consequences of it.

God went further, wanting to demonstrate his grace in an even more abundant way, and so gave Israel, not one, but several commandments. This would serve to make sin abound, as Paul said:

Rom 5:20 The law came in besides, that the trespass might abound; but where sin abounded, grace abounded more exceedingly...

One commandment, one sin, many commandments, many sins. That is what he is referring to here. How did grace abound even more? Consider that all God could have chosen to do was to forgive us our sins. He could have left Jesus dead, which would have paid for sin. However, grace abounded because he has given so much more, has he not? Unlike the trees, and the law, which were outside of man, for man to try to deal with according to his flesh, God, in Christ, the reality of those shadows, became the very life of man, and now dwells in man. In other words, the laws of God, which he at one time told Israel to write on their hearts, which he knew they would fail to do,

Pro 7:1-3 My son, keep my words. Lay up my commandments within you. Keep my commandments and live! Guard my teaching as the apple of your eye. Bind them on your fingers. Write them on the tablet of your heart.

he did himself, by placing himself in their hearts, in the person of Christ, by means of his spirit.

Jer 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says Yahweh: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people:

The tree of life, which once was outside of man, now became fulfilled in the many-membered body of Christ. We can see this clearly by comparing two visions, one given to John, the other to Ezekiel. Concerning John's account, we read:

Rev 22:1,2 He showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb, in the middle of its street. On both sides of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruits, yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Look carefully here. There is ONE tree of life, yet it (this single tree) is on BOTH sides of the river. This is spoken of here twice as the TREE, not the TREES. It is plainly a single tree. This tree represents Jesus Christ, who is life. Why though, is he spoken of as being on both sides of the river? Here is where we come in. Notice Ezekiel's account of this same vision:

Eze 47:7,12 Now when I had returned, behold, on the bank of the river were very many trees on one side and on the other. By the river on its bank, on this side and on that side, shall grow every tree for food, whose leaf shall not wither, neither shall its fruit fail: it shall bring forth new fruit every month, because its waters issue out of the sanctuary; and its fruit shall be for food, and its leaf for healing.

Ezekiel speaks of 'many trees' and 'every tree,' on both sides of the river. This speaks to us the wonderful truth that we, the many-membered body of Christ, are that tree of life! Notice too that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is nowhere to be found. Why not? Because it has been dealt with by Christ, so that no longer does man relate to God according to law, to flesh, to sin, for it has died. The shadows are no more! The realities have come!

How good it is that we no longer relate to God according to the flesh, knowing that it only resulted in experiencing good and evil, resulting in death. Our flesh, our old man, is dead, and we are alive, relating to God according to the spirit, knowing that it results in Life.

And this is true, not only for us who believe, but for the whole world. God is using those of us who believe as his mouth to bring this wonderful news to a world that does not know the freedom that is theirs, if only they would believe it.

[joel]

Ron, It is good to hear from you again.

Hope that all of yours are blessed, and well, and you are prospering in spirit.

I was edified through your post, and will go over it again, piece by piece.

Blessings, in Him,

Joel

[CWH]

Hi Ron,

This sure is a lot to digest.:eek: Thanks and really appreciate for your effort. I guess it's too profound for me to understand. :confused2: You said it true, your explanation is difficult for me to accept; you sure have that ESP :thumb: Actually I have a much simpler explanation, and I am very sure you will not accept my explanation:D. This is my own personal theory:

Imagine I am the God creator of 2 robots (Adam and Eve) and put them on Earth in the Garden of Eden. I gave these robots intelligence and free choice to make decisions. I gave them instructions and test them to see if they obey my instructions faithfully. I also test them to see if their decisions and thoughts are skewed towards good or towards evil.
When I first created the robot Adam, I warned him that if he wanted the knowledge of good and evil, he will surely die; if he don't want the knowledge of good and evil, he will live forever. He seemed to obey my instruction strictly and chose everlasting life. I then created another robot, Eve as a companion for him and for procreation. I make use of the serpent to try and trick Eve and test her to make a choice whether she wanted everlasting life or if she wanted the knowledge of good and evil. Eve wanted to be wise like God and decided to take the "fruit" of the knowledge of good and evil. She gave it to Adam who also "ate" it knowing it is a disobedience to God's instruction and in disbelief to the consequence that that they will surely die. The truth is out, Adam obeyed and trusted Eve instead of God and Adam and Eve thoughts and decisions were skewed towards evil and disobedience.

This is only a theory and the only proof that I got was that God regretted creating man realizing that their thoughts were always wicked and evil and decided to wipe out all his creation and start anew with the seed of Noah and a few of his kin:

Genesis 6:
5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. 7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them." 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

Account of Adam and Eve taking the forbidden fruit (Genesis 2 and 3):
15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

18 The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him."

19 Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds of the air and all the beasts of the field.
But for Adam [h] no suitable helper was found. 21 So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs [i] and closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib [j] he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.

23 The man said,
"This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called 'woman, [k] '
for she was taken out of man."

24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.

25 The man and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame.

Genesis 3:

1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"
2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "

4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?"

10 He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid."

11 And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"

12 The man said, "The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."



Many Blessings to you

[gregoryfl]

Cheow

Thanks for sharing your understanding. Let me ask you a series of questions about this. Just for starters, would you say that in order for God to feel regret for making man, that he was not sure whether man would turn out the way he did? In other words, did he merely hope for the best and then ended up disappointed in the wrong choices man made?

Ron

[CWH]

Hi Ron,

I believe so if not God would not have regretted creating man in the first place with the seed of Adam and Eve. It probably takes several generations for God to see the full impact of man's wickedness and evil. Do you have a better explanation why would God regretted making man? I also believed that the evilness of man was exacerbated by the lust of the sons of God:

Genesis 6:
1 When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with [a] man forever, for he is mortal [b] ; his days will be a hundred and twenty years."
4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

If I am a robot maker and my robots seem to get more evil. I try to solve that evilness only to realize after several years later that the evil is getting out of hand, my instinct decision will be to destroy them and make better ones.

God Blessings to you.

[CWH]

Hi Ron,

Genesis 3:

1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"
2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "

4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?"

10 He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid."

11 And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"

12 The man said, "The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."

Further to our discussion, God tends to test people. He tested Adam and Eve to see if they are skewed towards Good or Evil, towards obedience or disobedience, towards eternal life or the life with the knowledge of good and evil, towards God or towards the desires of his own flesh and bones. In Genesis 3, God called out to the man,"Where are you?". I don't believe God don't know where the man (Adam) was, He certainly knew but He just wanted to test if the man Adam was afraid of his nakedness. If Adam was afraid of his nakedness, then he must have eaten from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Now Ron, where are the other series of questions?... you like to hang me in anticipation :D .

Then we come to the next question, why did God made and put the serpent in the Garden of Eden? If God did not put the serpent in the Garden of Eden, then Eve will not be deceived to eat from the tree of Good and Evil, and we all would be living in eternal life now. I believe God put the serpent in the Garden of Eden for a purpose of testing.

God Blessings to you.

[gregoryfl]

Cheow,

Sorry for the delay. Not doing it on purpose, just have felt a bit drained of late. Hehe. So on to my next 2 questions.

What is the reason, do you think, that God did not honestly know whether Adam and Eve would sin? Is it because he chose not to, or is there another reason you have thought of?

My second question is, Why do you believe God chose not to know?

Ron

[CWH]

Cheow,

Sorry for the delay. Not doing it on purpose, just have felt a bit drained of late. Hehe. So on to my next 2 questions.

What is the reason, do you think, that God did not honestly know whether Adam and Eve would sin? Is it because he chose not to, or is there another reason you have thought of?

My second question is, Why do you believe God chose not to know?

Ron

Hi Ron,

I believe God knew that Adam and Eve would sin but he just wanted to confirm it through further tests. The tests would also confirm other things that were already discussed such as towards good or evil etc. The other reason, I believe is that God wanted to be fair to Adam and Eve to make their own decisions. Supposed you are a robot maker, you knew what your robot is capable of but would you want to test it and find out for yourself what other functions your robot is capable of and what other faults it may have?

God Blessings to you.

[gregoryfl]

Thanks Cheow,

If it is ok with you, I would like to continue asking questions for you to think about, instead of just coming out with what I understand.

Is it possible for God to do everything he wants to, down the the minutest detail and at the same time do so with man and woman making legitimate choices? In other words, not just knowing that they would sin, but also making sure it happened for a reason? Or do you believe that it can only be one way or the other? Yes I do agree that testing something made makes sense, although I believe for different reasons; not for God's benefit, but man's.

Ron

[CWH]

Hi Ron,

Of course, God can do everything he wants to, to the minutest details. Now since, Adam and Eve have made their choice to sin and get the knowledge of good and evil and their choice is binding, God will respect their choice but they will forfeit eternal life and taste the consequences of their folly. However, God being a Merciful and Forgiving God, hope that man after tasting all these consequences and when man finally realized their mistakes and repent of their sins, they will be forgiven and eternal life will be awarded to them. Christ's death on the cross and His resurrection is a promise from God that whoever repents and believe in Him, will have eternal life. Imagine if you are a robot maker and your robots that you make is evil and more evil, you will have the intention to destroy them completely. But however, if your robots realized their evilness and repent and made good from their repentence, don't you think you want to forgive them and forget about destroying them?


God Blessings to you.

[gregoryfl]

Hi Ron,

However, God being a Merciful and Forgiving God, hope that man after tasting all these consequences and when man finally realized their mistakes and repent of their sins, they will be forgiven and eternal life will be awarded to them. Christ's death on the cross and His resurrection is a promise from God that whoever repents and believe in Him, will have eternal life. Imagine if you are a robot maker and your robots that you make is evil and more evil, you will have the intention to destroy them completely. But however, if your robots realized their evilness and repent and made good from their repentence, don't you think you want to forgive them and forget about destroying them?

God Blessings to you.To answer your question, yes, if such a situation did exist, then I would not destroy them if they repented. Now for my next questions to dig further into this...

You said that God hopes that man will repent. How do you define such hope? You mentioned in your posts the example of making robots. I would like to look at this from a biblical example, that of pottery. God is the potter, we are the clay. How do you see, not from what you might feel you would like, but strictly from scripture itself, God making each piece of clay? I would like you to think about it in terms of how it is described in scripture. How did God make man?

Ron

[CWH]

Hi Ron,

I don't know exactly what you are driving at. God is the potter, we are the clay. I use the same analogy in the modern sense, God is the robot maker, we are the robots. God created us from the dust of the Earth so that we could see and share the glory of God's creation. He will destroy whatever pots that are no good and retain those that are good. In this way, righteousness will grow. God being a Merciful and Forgiving God, hope that man after tasting all these consequences of their folly without God and when man finally realized their mistakes and repent of their sins, they will be forgiven and eternal life will be awarded to them to those who believe in Him.

Romans 9:20-22 (New International Version)

20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[a] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?


Isaiath 45:8-10

8 "You heavens above, rain down righteousness;
let the clouds shower it down.
Let the earth open wide,
let salvation spring up,
let righteousness grow with it;
I, the LORD, have created it.

9 "Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker,
to him who is but a potsherd among the potsherds on the ground.
Does the clay say to the potter,
'What are you making?'
Does your work say,
'He has no hands'?

10 Woe to him who says to his father,
'What have you begotten?'
or to his mother,
'What have you brought to birth?'

Many Blessings to you.

[gregoryfl]

The reason for my questions will be evident soon enough. Trust me on that. :)

You mention that we are the clay and he is the potter, and then quote from one of the passages I was thinking of. Now what I want you to do is think about your illustration of making robots. What you are saying is that God made robots in the hope that they would turn out the way he wanted. However, when tested, they turned out to be not the way he wanted, and that caused him to regret making them. So he destroyed them in the flood and decided to start over. The choice of whether the robots would turn out good or bad was totally the robots, not God. Please correct me if I am not stating your belief correctly.

Now, lets look at the biblical example of the potter and the clay. I ask: Who decided what clay would be prepared for his mercy, and who decided what clay would be prepared for destruction? Who decided what clay would be for noble use, and what clay for common use? Was it the clay that decided, or the potter? And I am only wanting you to take into account the text you quoted, not anything else we know of in scripture. I say this because I do believe we make legitimate choices that affect outcomes, but before getting into that, I want to establish who it is that is responsible for the way the clay turns out, just from the text you cited.

Ron

[CWH]

Hi Ron,

To answer your 1st question, yes, the decision to be good or evil totally lies in the robots itself.

You asked, "Who decided what clay would be prepared for his mercy, and who decided what clay would be prepared for destruction? Who decided what clay would be for noble use, and what clay for common use? Was it the clay that decided, or the potter?" Of course God, but there must be criterias who to destroy and who to get mercy, for noble use or for common use. God made us what we are, perfect in his sight but we corrupted ourselves and He is now trying to make us perfect again.

Ron, I realized that you have written a thread with the same title a year ago. No wonder this topic is close to your heart. Anyway, I roughly got what you are driving at.... the paper that was crumpled and how God will make it straight.

God Blessings to you :).

[gregoryfl]

Oh yeah, I forgot about that article. :) Ok, thanks for your answer, and thanks for your patience as we delve further into this.

Now, you mention that there should be certain criteria as to who to destroy and who to give mercy to. I agree. My question is, (and that same 9th chapter gives us one viewpoint) what is that criteria? I believe you will find it in that chapter, if you look at the example of Jacob and Esau, and then Pharoah, the examples listed.

Also, I believe that what Jeremiah wrote pertains to this as well. I will quote the entire section, and ask that question this way. When was the clay marred, while it was being made, or after it was complete? Here is the entire quote:

Arise, and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause you to hear my words. Then I went down to the potter’s house, and behold, he was making a work on the wheels. When the vessel that he made of the clay was marred in the hand of the potter, he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. Then the word of Yahweh came to me, saying, House of Israel, can’t I do with you as this potter? says Yahweh. Behold, as the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in my hand, house of Israel. At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up and to break down and to destroy it; if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do to them. At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; if they do that which is evil in my sight, that they not obey my voice, then I will repent of the good, with which I said I would benefit them.
(Jer 18:2-10)


Ron