Second chance before the second death?

[Rose]

This has been a topic of interest for me for a long time, and since Abigail and Joel expressed interest over on the other thread, I thought I would start a thread on the subject and add my ideas.
Hopefully there will be a lot of input from others :thumb:


Question: In Romans 9:13 where God says 'Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated' was Esau saved or not?

Question: When God says in Rom 9: 21&22 that He makes vessels for honor and dishonor out of the same lump of clay, and the vessels of dishonor are prepared for destruction, is that destruction eternal or is it like Paul says in 1 Corinthians 3:15 ' If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire'.?


Question: Was Cain whom God spared, saved or not, if not why did God allow a race of people to come from Cain?


Question: In 1 Corinthians 3:17 where it says 'If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him' what kind of destruction is Paul taking about?


Question: We know from Paul that when a believer dies he is present with the Lord, in 11 Corinthians 5:8 it says '…to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord'. Where does the unbeliever go when they die, waiting for the final day of judgment? Is there a second chance given before the second death?


My point in asking these questions is to try and derive from Scripture, whether or not those who die in unbelief are given a second chance before the second death spoken of in Revelation 20:14 & 21:8.


We know from 11 Corinthians 5:8 that when we die we are present with the Lord in spirit, so when the unbeliever dies he must be absent from the Lord in spirit until the day of judgment. In 11 Peter 2:9 it says 'the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment,'.


To my understanding the above quoted verses seem to be saying that the unjust person is in a state of punishment until the final day of judgment spoken of in Revelation 20. Also looking at the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man in Luke 16:19-31, where it speaks of the Rich man being in a state of torment after he died, and calls the place where he’s at Hades, whereas Lazarus is carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom, which is interpreted as being with God.

My idea of a second chance being given to anyone who asks, gets its foundation in Rev 21: 6, where God says 'I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts' and again in Rev 22:17 where it says ' And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely'. To me that seems to be saying, whoever asks to partake of the water of life, it will be given to him freely.

I think after the first death, that is the death we all die on earth, as it says in Hebrews 9:27 ' it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,' there will be an opportunity before the final judgment when those who have died in unbelief will be able to repent and ask to partake of the water of life. God says in 11 Peter 3:9 that He is 'longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance'.

I liken God’s longsuffering to the parable in Luke 15: 11-32 of the Prodigal son, where the father said ' for this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' so they prepared a great feast and there was no good thing withheld from him. Which leads me back to the verses in Revelation where God says 'whosoever desires, let him take of the water of life freely.'. Gods mercy is great and His love is everlasting, and as we see in the verses above, God is not willing that anyone should perish.


The time period for the above quoted verse in Rev. 21:6 seems to be at the time of the second death, the following verses say ' But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.' So from the context of what is being said, those who do not thirst for the water of life, who will not repent of their abominable ways, will take part in the second death.

Well those are some of my thoughts, I'm sure you all will have plenty of insights to add :D

Rose

[joel]

Rose, your questions are very appropriate for us all.

As we work through the various threads on the forum, those which spark a certain interest in our hearts, it is evident that we are on a mutual quest for truth.

So, I would like to take just a moment to say that;
1.) suffering comes from sin. We experience the sufferings of "life" throughout our journey, and, in my opinion, the suffering is felt within the soul, as a result of the judgment of God upon sin.
2.) death is a doorway into life.

To those who have been graced with "salvation" in this life, there will be no "suffering" in judgment because we have been "justified" by the blood of Christ.
Such suffering that will be felt by those who are not called now, will be experienced at the time of their judgment.

To those who have been "justified", there is also the grace of being included in the death of Christ. His death is our death. However, those who have not been called now, will experience a "second death" at that time. Death is process of changing what we are, in Adam, to what we are in Christ.

Suffering has to do with what is "done", sins.
Death has to do with what we "are, dying in Adam.

And that is why I do not embrace the teaching that "suffering" and "death" to those who have not been "saved" in this life is "permanent", "eternal", "without end". Suffering due to sin, and death are applicable to the "eons".

Joel

[Geoffrey]

Question: Was Cain whom God spared, saved or not, if not why did God allow a race of people to come from Cain?

Rose, if you look at the following passage in which Jesus speaks to the Pharisees:

Matthew 23:29-36 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchers of the righteous, (30) And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. (31) Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. (32) Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. (33) Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? (34) Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: (35) That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zechariah son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. (36) Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

You will notice that He says:

they must fill up the measure of their fathers
they are a brood of serpents
they will not escape the damnation of hell
upon that generation will come the blood of Abel, amongst others.The word generation, in this context, refers to a race and does not refer only to people who live contemporaneously, because Jesus mentions fathers then brood and because Jesus speaks of prophets murdered throughout the generations.

Cain murdered Abel. Jesus insinuated that the Pharisees to whom He was speaking descended from Cain, because He told them to fill up the measure of their fathers. He said:"Like father, like son", or "Let every seed bring forth after its kind".

The Pharisees will not escape hell and neither will Cain escape the second death.

I hope this answers your question satifactorily.

[Geoffrey]

Rose, concerning the second part of your question:


Question: Was Cain whom God spared, saved or not, if not why did God allow a race of people to come from Cain?

Paul answered in:

Romans 9:17 For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Exodus 9:12 And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.

Romans 9:22-24 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: (23) And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, (24) Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

And God said in:

Malachi 1:2-5I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, (3) And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. (4) Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation forever. (5) And your eyes shall see, and ye shall say, The LORD will be magnified from the border of Israel.

That is why God allowed a race to come from Cain: that we might appreciate eternal life.