View Full Version : An essay on 1 Thessalonians
Who was Paul’s epistle to the Thessalonians written to, and does it apply to us today?
I have begun viewing the Bible from a new perspective, reading each epistle as a letter written specifically to those it is addressed to. I begin with Paul’s letter to the Thessalonians, since this is said to be his earliest epistle, written around 50AD. Below is my paraphrase of 1 Thessalonians.
This letter begins with a basic salutation from Paul, Silvanus, and Timotheous to the church of the Thessalonians, from that I know who the letter is from and who it was originally written to. The writer of this letter, Paul goes on to tell the Thessalonians that he prays for them always, remembering their work of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope in the Lord Jesus, and that he knows they are elected by God for this service. Then Paul continues to praise them for being outstanding examples of their faith in God in Macedonia, Achaia, and every place they went even through much affliction. Paul gives the Thessalonians accolades for their turning from idol worship to worshiping the one true God, and commends them that they are now waiting for the coming of Jesus, the one who God raised from the dead, and the one who delivers them from the wrath that is to come.
In this letter’s second chapter Paul continues to speak to the Thessalonians as his brethren whom he introduced to the Gospel of God, even through much contention, and being treated shamefully at a place called Philippi. Paul reminds them that they and he have been approved by God and entrusted with the Gospel, not for the sake of pleasing men, but for pleasing God. And never did Paul, Silvanus and Timotheous seek the glory men when they very well could have since Paul and the others were indeed Apostles of Christ, but they were always kind and gentle to them as is a mother with her children. Paul also reminds them that they (the Thessalonians) are witnesses as to how holy, and justly they were treated when he was with them, just as a father treats his children. Again, calling the Thessalonians his brethren, Paul commends them for being steadfast followers of Jesus, the same as the Churches which are in Judea and acknowledges their suffering at the hands of their fellow countrymen, in the same way as the Churches in Judea suffered persecution of their countrymen the Jews, who not only killed their own prophets but also the Lord Jesus Christ. Those who do such things in no way please God, because they forbid their fellow Jews to speak to Gentiles and share with them the Gospel so that they may be saved, and in so doing they fill up the measure of their sin and bring the full wrath of God upon themselves. Paul goes on to say to the Thessalonians that he and his brethren would have come to them sooner, but Satan hindered them. Now Paul’s hope, joy, and crown of rejoicing is that they (the Thessalonians) will be in the presence of the Lord Jesus at His coming.
The third chapter of Paul’s letter begins with his explaining why he sent Timotheous to them when he couldn’t come to build up their faith and encourage them, fearing that his labor in starting them as a church may have been in vain because of Satan the tempter. Paul writes to them about how pleased he is with the report from Timotheous of their faith and charity and it is life indeed to Paul if they stand fast in the Lord. Paul and his brethren thank God continually for the love of the Thessalonians for all men, and they pray night and day that they may soon come to them and see them face to face, and hoping that they will stand without blame before God at the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ with all His Saints.
In the fourth chapter of Paul’s letter to the Thessalonians he is beseeching them to walk in sanctification and honor, keeping their bodies holy and abstaining from fornication; exhorting them to not act as the Gentiles who do not know God, for God has called them to walk in holiness giving unto them the Holy Spirit. In this chapter Paul states that he is very concerned that his brethren in the Lord here not be ignorant of what has happened to their fellow believers who have died knowing Jesus. He tells them that by the word of the Lord given to him, all those who have died will be with Jesus when He comes, for when they hear the sound of the mighty trump of God, and the shout of the Archangel Christ will be coming back in victory with the Saints and those who have died and those who are alive on earth will forever be with the Lord….then Paul exhorts them to comfort one another with these words.
The fifth and last chapter of Paul’s letter begins with him telling his brethren not to be concerned with the times and seasons of the Lords coming for they know perfectly well that the day of the Lords coming with be without warning, as a thief in the night. When people who do not know the Lord are saying all is well and there is peace and safety the Lord will come suddenly, just as labor pains come upon a woman who is pregnant. Paul tells the Thessalonians that they are not in darkness, but they are children of the light and children of the day….not of darkness. Again Paul stresses to them that they must be ever watchful and sober putting on faith and love as a breastplate and their hope of salvation as a helmet. Paul reminds them that God has not appointed those who love Him to wrath, but to obtain salvation through His Son Jesus Christ and whether they live or die they will always be together with Christ; they are to comfort one another with these words. Then Paul tells them to rejoice evermore, pray without ceasing, in everything give thanks, not to quench the Holy Spirit, not to despise prophesying, to prove all things, hold to that which is good, and abstain from all appearance of evil, then God will sanctify them. Paul prays that their souls and bodies will be preserved and remain blameless until the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, for faithful is the God who called them. Paul ends this letter by charging them to read this to all the holy brethren.
My commentary:
This letter of Paul’s to the Thessalonians had purpose and a very real meaning to those he was writing to. They were his brethren, part of the Church he had started, he felt like a father to them and watched them grow as we watch our children grow. Every detail of what he spoke held significance to those that Paul personally knew, the places he mentioned were where they lived and traveled to. Today people who try and apply what Paul was speaking of to current events rob his words of their meaning. If we pick and chose what verses we want to hold as future we then deny its meaningful purpose for those it was written to. For example: if the coming of Christ is still a future event to happen, then the many references to Christ’s coming in Paul’s letter to the Thessalonians cannot have the intended meaning for them, consequently then we have picked out those verses and labeled them as having no purpose or meaning to those they were written to.
Another thing that jumps out at me after reading Paul’s letter to the Thessalonians is the sense of urgency I feel coming from Paul’s words in telling the Thessalonians to keep themselves pure and blameless so that they may obtain salvation at the coming of the Lord. It’s like things were very much in a state of waiting, with the hope of salvation hinging on the coming of the Lord. Paul assured them that they were indeed called and elected of the Lord and chosen to proclaim the Gospel of God. The people who Paul was writing to were unsure of the condition of their loved ones and what would happen to them when the Lord came, so Paul needed to reassure them with words of hope so they could comfort one another. They had no clue as to the condition of their loved ones who had died, and their lives were in such a state of upheaval that they absolutely needed Paul’s words of reassurance from the Lord that soon not only those that had died in Jesus, but they themselves would be with the Lord.
Reading this epistle to the Thessalonians gives me great insight as to the condition and state of mind of these first Christians who God elected and chose to be the ones that the foundation of the Church was built upon.
God Bless
Rose
Greetings, Rose;
There are two simple objections to your conclusions;
1.) Paul's letters are to all of us, not just to those to whom he addressed his letters. Otherwise, we could dismiss them all.
2.) The Day of the Lord is not the same as the coming of the Lord. Those at Thessalonica were thinking that the Day of the Lord had arrived and that their loved ones were not going to be raised. He assured them that we are not subject to wrath, giving them comfort and consolation, just as the letters should be comfort to us as we too are not subject to wrath.
Joel
Greetings, Rose;
There are two simple objections to your conclusions;
1.) Paul's letters are to all of us, not just to those to whom he addressed his letters. Otherwise, we could dismiss them all.
2.) The Day of the Lord is not the same as the coming of the Lord. Those at Thessalonica were thinking that the Day of the Lord had arrived and that their loved ones were not going to be raised. He assured them that we are not subject to wrath, giving them comfort and consolation, just as the letters should be comfort to us as we too are not subject to wrath.
Joel
Hi Joel :yo:
Thanks for responding.
1.) Just because Paul's original letter was not specifically addressed to us does not mean the the account of the truth it contains does not apply. So we absolutely cannot dismiss it!
2.) In the epistle of 1 Thess. Paul mentions the coming of the Lord at the end of each of the 5 chapters, so of course its significance is obvious. The Day of the Lord was the coming of the Lord, when Jesus came in power and glory ushering in the Kingdom of God in 70AD. That is what they were all waiting for.
God Bless
Rose
TheForgiven
07-17-2009, 07:01 PM
When reading any letter of the New Testament, it must be treated as a personal letter specifically addressed to them. Years ago, I was taught a simple rule. We must keep in mind that when reading these personal letters, we are basically listening to answers of a phone conversations without exactly knowing the question. The only clues we have are the answers given. So, like the game show Jeopardy, we have to figure out the question asked based on the answers we're reading. That is why it's important to ask:
Who
What
Where
When
Why
How
Who wrote the letter? Who was it addressed to? What were the reasons, and/or questions? What were the circumstances/why was it written? How did they respond to a previous letter? And of course, when was it written?
These questions are important because without knowing the setting, and context, readers jump to conclusions and misinterpret a verse, resulting in an interpretation that is outside its purpose, or conclusion. We see this more and more as Churches bicker towards one another, forming doctrines totally out of context from a single verse, or even two verses.
Sister rose did a swell job summarizing the importance of Paul's letter to the Thessalonian's. She nailed it right on the head with regards to the spiritual condition of those who died in Thessalonica. The believers there needed assurance that although their loved ones had passed on, there were strong indications that they (or most) remained faithful to the Lord, and would not be disappointed, or found ashamed as His Parasouia.
Like sister Rose, I agree that there was a great sense of urgency and concern within the letter. It wasn't just a mere letter of teaching, or instruction (as most understand when they read the New Testament). This was an instruction of encouragement, and to remain steadfast despite persecution, and/or death. Nobody knew when the Lord was going to come back for them, but Paul encourages them remain steadfast so that they would not be ashamed as His coming.
Thus, I do not read Paul speaking generally as though the return was not sometime soon. He spoke with a strong sense of urgency as though the coming was not that far away. In the letter to the Romans, Paul states, "That the Lord is more closer than what he originally thought..." as indicated by the signs occurring around him.
When we read the letters of the Apostles, we must not act as though the letter were addressed to us. We, through their events, and eyes, learn from their circumstances, and/or reasons and apply them to us as examples to follow. That is how all scripture should be understood.
The problem with Futurist's is that they treat the bible as some sort of hidden code. They piece and jumble different portions of scripture, and try building a thesis based on those pieces of the puzzle. So to them, when they read Revelation, it doesn't matter if they understand it, so long as they're able to build a picture of clues they find applicable to their time-frame. This is the reason why every prediction, and presumption made by them has met with much disappointment, embarrassment, and failure. When they learn to stop time-coding everything, and most importantly, stop trying to find clues to situations indicating a possible "end time event" happening in the world, then their focus will be more on love, Kingdom expansion, Church attendance, Church contributions, and spreading the gospel.
Now some might argue that they are spreading the gospel. Unfortunately, the gospel they teach is one of fear. "The Lord is coming soon! So hurry! The rapture could happen at any time! So don't be "Left Behind" and suffer eternal damnation! Thus, they scare people into the pews, and most of them end up falling away. This is not the purpose of the Church.
God is love. Yes He is also a God of wrath, but He never used wrath to bring people to Him. He used mercy, love, and compassion to bring a people to Himself. Using teaching tactics of the Rapture, destruction of the world, and the Anti-Christ are not good sources of salvation. If anything, when Jesus spoke of those things, it was always aimed at those who claimed to worship God (false teachers). I don't recall Him using wrath and judgment to proclaim the gospel to those who needed to hear.
Good post sister Rose.
Joe
HI Joe,
When Jesus said, "The time is at hand", is he trying to instill fear or is it out of love? or when Jesus said, "I come here not to give peace to the world but a sword", is he trying to instill fear or is it out of love? Most likely you would say love. I would say both. Love because he wants all to be saved; fear because he wants all to see the urgency of his words. Fear is not a negative thing it can also be a good thing. It is like stress; it's both good and bad. Stress motivates people to do things that need to be done. Therefore, when futurists say that the end is coming soon, it is both out of fear and out of love. Just like Christ, they want every to be saved; they want everyone to be motivated and be always prepared for the coming. They want everyone to see the urgency of is coming which will happen anytime. Not all futurists are greedy of money; your comment about futurists is rather skewed. I for one, spending so much time writing about endtime events, is it out of money? or is it out of love and fear? I am not here to create confusion either.
Teaching of the Rapture etc. may scare people out of the pews; teaching about every prophesy has already been fulfilled or the end of times has already occurred in AD 70 or that the resurrection or the Book of Revelation is symbolic doesn't helps either; it demotivates people out of the pews....funny, futurist believers continue to grow. But whether it scares people or demotivates people out of the pews depend on how strong their faith is. The stronger your faith. the stronger you would standby your belief no matter how people scares you or demotivates you. Using your favorite words, Think about it.
I like your comment. "That is why it's important to ask:
Who
What
Where
When
Why
How"
Same goes to the 666 or the mark rather than say it is symbolic.... who, what, where, when is the 666; why 666 and not 555, How is the 666 now, How does the number 666 calculated?
God Blessings to you.:)
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (King James Version)
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
------------------------------------------------------
Let's focus on this section to understand Paul's focus of the letter.
Joel
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (King James Version)
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
------------------------------------------------------
Let's focus on this section to understand Paul's focus of the letter.
Joel
Great idea!
But, in order to focus on just one portion of an entire letter we must draw from the rest of the letter to understand the condition of the times Paul was speaking in.
Paul is specifically speaking to those he considers his brethren because he has birthed this Church. It has been maybe 20 years since Jesus rose from the dead and now there is great persecution against those who believe, even from their fellow countrymen.
Some of their loved ones have died either by the hands of others or naturally, but non the less they have no clue as to what will become of them, and their hope is fading. Paul speaks words of comfort to them that he has received directly from the Lord. He tells them that when the Lord comes it will be with a mighty shout of victory and from that point on all of their loved ones who have died in the Lord, and all of the people who are alive will be gathered together as one in the Lord.
What I interpret that to mean, is that from the point that Christ completed His mission of ushering in the Kingdom of God, all who belong to Him whether they be dead or alive are resurrected into His Kingdom, and now His Kingdom is within them and us, so we are forever with the Lord.
Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
God Bless
Rose
Richard Amiel McGough
07-18-2009, 08:59 AM
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (King James Version)
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
------------------------------------------------------
Let's focus on this section to understand Paul's focus of the letter.
Joel
Hey Joel! :yo:
Great to see you found time to visit and share. I think a close look at 1 Thessalonians 4-5 is a great idea. I also think it would be a good idea to refresh our memory of where we left off the conversation in post 138 (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8047&postcount=138) of the "Torn Veil" thread from last August 2008 ...
Richard, please don't be too quick to dismiss the characteristics of "joint" words. A group unity is expressed in the words.
"Every man in his own order"....is not expressing the individuality of each person, but, is describing groups. All within a group are "joint" with each other. The resurrection that Paul is describing in the verse you quoted is speaking of resurrection groups (I Corinthians 15:23-24).
Obviously, we are "one" with Jesus. But, the extended application is that we are "one" with each other, "joint".
There are what are called "unities" of joint-ness.
One who receives something "jointly" with another must, by definition, not only receive the ''same thing"(a unity of what is given) that the other receives, but, must also receive it at the "same time" (the unity of time).
Joel
Good morning Joel, :yo:
Don't worry, I won't dismiss the "joint" words too quickly. I intended to mention that I think you brought up a strong point and that it was definitely worthy of more discussion, but it didn't make it into the post. Sorry.
So let's take a look at that passage:
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. I highlighted the parts that use the "jointly" words. Of utmost significance for the question at hand is the underlined phrase translated as "together with" which corresponds to the Greek construction "hama sun" - here are the Strongs definitions:
αμα hama {ham'-ah} a primary particle;; AV - together 3, withal 3, with 1, and 1, misc 2; 10 adv. 1) at the same time, at once, together prep. 2) together with
συν sun {soon} a primary preposition denoting union; TDNT - 7:766,1102; prep AV - with 123, beside 1, accompany + 2064 1; 125 1) with Thus I understand your assertion that the event occurs "jointly" and "at the same time" for all participants. But further study seems to indicate a different meaning altogether. As it turns out, Paul used exactly the same Greek construct in a nearly identical context a little later in the same book:
1 Thessalonians 5:9-11 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. 11 Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing. There it is - exactly the same construct with the same meaning as vs. 4:17 ... but now we see its true meaning is that all Christians are "together with" the Lord whether they are alive now or long dead after having died in faith. Our union with Christ and the body of saints that have died before us is a present fact now. We are not "waiting" to be "together with" the Lord. It is a present fact, whether we "wake or sleep" we now "live together with Him." Note the nearly identical phrases that follow "hama sun" in both 4:17 and 5:10 -
4:18: Therefore comfort one another with these words.
5:11: Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing
I do not believe the futurist "rapture" understanding of 1 Thessalonians will stand up under close scrutiny. Most scholars agree that Paul taught the coming of the Lord would happen in the first century which also coheres precisely with Christ's teaching that his parousia (coming) would happen in the first century.
Rather than staking our entire eschatology on a single verse, we need to find the broad, solid, and unshakeable FOUNDATION of the entire eschatological teaching of Scripture. There is no value in speculation based on the very obscure idea of a "rapture." I say "obscure" because the "rapture" interpretation is not clearly supported by other mutually confirming passages. Thus, it should not be taught as doctrine if God Himself chose not to give us a clear and unambiguous revelation in His Word according to His Own fundamental principle that every word must be established by at least two or three witnesses. This is an extremely important point. We simply can not know the truth about the "rapturist doctrine" or if our interpretation of 1 Thess 4:13-18 is valid if we don't have any other verses to confirm it. But the argument against the "rapturist" view of 1 Thess is actually much stronger than this because not only do we lack verses supporting that view, but we also have a mountain of mutually confirming verses that strongly contradict it.
Richard
The most important point seems to be that Paul taught the Thessalonians that whether believers are "sleeping" or "living" they are (first century present tense) "together with" the Lord.
As always, it is good to be chatting,
Richard
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
--------------------------------
Richard, greetings to you, it has been awhile since we last conversed.
Concerning "them which are asleep".......can we say that there are two distinct groups......
1.) others which have no hope.....and,
2.) those which have a hope?
Joel
TheForgiven
07-18-2009, 04:32 PM
HI Joe,
When Jesus said, "The time is at hand", is he trying to instill fear or is it out of love? or when Jesus said, "I come here not to give peace to the world but a sword", is he trying to instill fear or is it out of love? Most likely you would say love. I would say both. Love because he wants all to be saved; fear because he wants all to see the urgency of his words. Fear is not a negative thing it can also be a good thing. It is like stress; it's both good and bad. Stress motivates people to do things that need to be done. Therefore, when futurists say that the end is coming soon, it is both out of fear and out of love. Just like Christ, they want every to be saved; they want everyone to be motivated and be always prepared for the coming. They want everyone to see the urgency of is coming which will happen anytime.
Hello brother Cheow. I appreciate your comments, and some of them are right, but then some I do not agree.
A SWORD - Jesus was speaking to the Jews, but that doesn't limit his comment to them alone, but to all nations. A "sword" is a weapon (during the ancient times) used to fight battles and wars. Jesus was using the figure of the "sword" to show that His battle was not for peace, but for change. When we compare this statement in light of the other passages which speak of Gods kingdom, it is clear that He showed a sense of urgency to them, letting them know that His Kingdom was preparing to conquer all; the Jew first and then the Gentile. Considering the "sword" began first in Jerusalem, judgment was also first upon them. And since the Jews spread the sword to the Gentiles, they too would be overcome by His majestic Kingdom. That is what He meant. He was not trying to use fear; he was trying to tell them about God's Kingdom. In no way was this Christ trying to scare them into His kingdom. Considering Israel of the flesh had become so corrupt, I think his statement fit very well with what was to come.
Now, remember Mary, who was going to be stoned? Did He use fear to win her over? Or was it compassion? Not fear, but compassion. Thus, when I see Futurist on television trying to use fear to win people over, they assume that the reason they become part of their congregation is because of guilt, and fear. Be that as it may, I don't believe that's the real reason. Some join these services out of sensationalism, wanting to be excited. And it's no wonder. Nearly every time I visit a futurist forum, there are dozens of new converts (very recent) who are already studying eschatology. What scares me about them is most of them began spatting off like teachers, yet have no concept of eschatology, or knowledge of scripture. This isn't to insult them, but to show that they are chewing meat without teeth; they're still infants with bear gums. But because of the "hip-hop" culture (figuratively speaking), their skins are yearning to have its hair stand on ends. Over time, when enough failed predictions happen, they start dropping off like flies.
Preterist, on the other hand, convinces Christians that they play an active role in expanding the Kingdom. So instead of waiting for one, they know by faith that they have one; both now and then. Now on earth, and then after they've died. Not so with the Futurist. They view the Church as a temporal assembly, primarily Gentile, as though Jews are still separated from God's love. This, of course, has a negative effect of supporting the wrong nation, and usurping a war-like mentality that all nations who come against geographical Israel must be destroyed. John Haggee is perhaps the worst war-monger of the bunch. Yet at no time has God taught that His kingdom was about Christians fighting in battle. How can a Christian claim to be love from God, yet ready to send troops off to war? John Haggee was George Bush's spiritual adviser; just as Rob Parsley is John McCains. The war in Iraq wasn't just for political reasons, but religious reasons; reasons that were fueled by a false, and flawed eschatology which we call dispensational futurism.
Not all futurists are greedy of money; your comment about futurists is rather skewed. I for one, spending so much time writing about endtime events, is it out of money? or is it out of love and fear? I am not here to create confusion either.
Perhaps, but the TV sets say otherwise, and does not consider members such as yourself. Nevertheless, I do not agree with your view of eschatology, and for obvious reasons; its history of being wrong....a very long history of being wrong. Some suppose that God purposely made it difficult to "see the times" so that each generation continues to guess, until one day the "wolf cry" might become real. Futurist will also say that Preterist have come to cloud the vision of Christians, and main stream society, in order to keep them from looking for the return of Christ. That, then, presupposes a God who uses deception to accomplish His will, but we know that only Satan is a deceiver.
Teaching of the Rapture etc. may scare people out of the pews; teaching about every prophesy has already been fulfilled or the end of times has already occurred in AD 70 or that the resurrection or the Book of Revelation is symbolic doesn't helps either; it demotivates people out of the pews....funny, futurist believers continue to grow. But whether it scares people or demotivates people out of the pews depend on how strong their faith is. The stronger your faith. the stronger you would standby your belief no matter how people scares you or demotivates you. Using your favorite words, Think about it.
As stated, Preterism gives all the more reason to remain in the pews. It shows that they are very proactive in Kingdom support and expansion. Not so with the Futurist. What they teach causes members to keep looking for end-time clues, and it distracts their spiritual growth. Not all of course, but for the most part, that is what happened to me when I was much younger. I spent most of my time following the new headlines that Jack Vanimpie delivered. When I realized his predictions failed in the 80's, and after coming to know Preterism, I began to see the historical flaws with Futurism, from one failure to the next.
I like your comment. "That is why it's important to ask:
Who
What
Where
When
Why
How"
Same goes to the 666 or the mark rather than say it is symbolic.... who, what, where, when is the 666; why 666 and not 555, How is the 666 now, How does the number 666 calculated?
God Blessings to you.
Exactly! :thumb: Who was told that a Beast would come, bearing the Gamatria number six hundred, threescore, and six (666). The First century Church. If this number had no significance with the first century, why bother to tell them at all? Why not deliver this message to the Israelites when they first entered into Israel? Why not tell Adam and Eve? Get my point? To assume that 666 has to do with our future makes no sense, considering this warning was delivered more than 2000 years ago. Thus it's clear that 666 (or 616) can only apply to a figure of their day, and that figure was Nero Caesar, in my opinion. But this isn't new because Saints as far back as the 2nd and 3rd century believed it was Nero Caesar, as attested by Constantine in the 3rd century. Constantine did not agree with those who supported this view, but he does state that some supposed that 666 applied to Nero Caesar. Iranaeus, of course, never mentioned Nero Caesar, but he did believe this person would be Latinois (Latin), and from the Roman Empire. He goes a step further and uses an Old Testament passage claiming that the AC would come from the city of Dan. His final belief was that Danie's 10 horns represented the Roman Empire. Thus he says, "Let us first await the division of the Kingdom into 10, and then will the AC come...." But believing Daniel's prophesy to be unfulfilled is a complete contradiction to God's Kingdom. For only 4 kingdoms were shown on the image, and all 4 have been destroyed. The remaining, and reigning Kingdom beyond the original 4 is the "Stone" which dashed to pieces all prior Kingdoms. That Kingdom is of Christ, which contains worshipers of God who worship in Spirit, and in Truth. Thus, the theories of Iranaeus have failed, and Rome hasn't existed for many centuries since the 4rth century. So obviously Iranaeus was flat wrong, as he was with other teachings he presented.
Joe
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
--------------------------------
Richard, greetings to you, it has been awhile since we last conversed.
Concerning "them which are asleep".......can we say that there are two distinct groups......
1.) others which have no hope.....and,
2.) those which have a hope?
Joel
Yes, it appears that Paul is referring to those who have received Jesus as Messiah, and those who have not.....hence they have no hope.
Rose
1 Thessalonians 4:14-15 (King James Version)
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
---------------------------------------------------
Two groups of people;
1.) no hope,
2.) hope.
To re-state and re-phrase what you said Rose, Group 2 is comprised of those who believe that Jesus died and rose again (vs. 14).
Looking at the 2nd Group then, there are two distinct groups described;
2.a.) them also which sleep in Jesus (vs. 14),
2.b.) we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (vs. 15).
Joel
Silence
07-19-2009, 08:41 AM
Richard-
I have a question about the following quote from one of your earlier posts
<<< 1 Thessalonians 5:9-11 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. 11 Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.
There it is - exactly the same construct with the same meaning as vs. 4:17 ... but now we see its true meaning is that all Christians are "together with" the Lord whether they are alive now or long dead after having died in faith. Our union with Christ and the body of saints that have died before us is a present fact now. We are not "waiting" to be "together with" the Lord. It is a present fact, whether we "wake or sleep" we now "live together with Him." >>
The word "live" in v. 10 is in the aorist tense, which seems to be confusing as this tense considers the action of the verb as a fact, but does not specify it's time frame. Blue Letter Bible says it is normally translated as past tense, but that would not make much sense here. I am not at all familiar with Greek grammar, but it seems that if Paul was talking about a present reality, he would have used a present tense verb. I know zao has several meanings and applications, but the basic concept seems to be one of vitality or action, whether spoken of spiritual beings (like God), humans, or even "living water". It is hard to reconcile this with Paul using the word in reference to those who were "sleeping". In 4:13 Paul makes it clear he does not want the Thessalonians to have sorrow as those who have no hope. To give them reason for hope Paul tells them "God will (future tense) bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus". This also agrees with "the hope of salvation" mentioned in 5:9 being a hope for the future. Why would someone hope for something that was a present reality?
Richard-
I have a question about the following quote from one of your earlier posts
<<< 1 Thessalonians 5:9-11 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. 11 Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.
There it is - exactly the same construct with the same meaning as vs. 4:17 ... but now we see its true meaning is that all Christians are "together with" the Lord whether they are alive now or long dead after having died in faith. Our union with Christ and the body of saints that have died before us is a present fact now. We are not "waiting" to be "together with" the Lord. It is a present fact, whether we "wake or sleep" we now "live together with Him." >>
The word "live" in v. 10 is in the aorist tense, which seems to be confusing as this tense considers the action of the verb as a fact, but does not specify it's time frame. Blue Letter Bible says it is normally translated as past tense, but that would not make much sense here. I am not at all familiar with Greek grammar, but it seems that if Paul was talking about a present reality, he would have used a present tense verb. I know zao has several meanings and applications, but the basic concept seems to be one of vitality or action, whether spoken of spiritual beings (like God), humans, or even "living water". It is hard to reconcile this with Paul using the word in reference to those who were "sleeping". In 4:13 Paul makes it clear he does not want the Thessalonians to have sorrow as those who have no hope. To give them reason for hope Paul tells them "God will (future tense) bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus". This also agrees with "the hope of salvation" mentioned in 5:9 being a hope for the future. Why would someone hope for something that was a present reality?
Hi Silence :yo:
Thank you for entering the conversation, I know your post is addressed to Richard, but I would like to give you my understanding of what Paul is saying.
I think the reason for the ambiguity in grammar tenses is because of the unique condition of reality at that point. Jesus had indeed won the victory on the cross, and the hope of salvation was available to all, but things were in a state of transition at that point, the old was vanishing away. Christ was still yet to come in total power and glory, completely doing away with the old....that happened in 70AD.
The Thessalonians were in that state of transition, and Paul was giving them comfort by telling them their hope of salvation was real and those who had died in the Lord would indeed be a part of the whole body of Christ as would they themselves when all was accomplished, and that would be realized when Christ returned.
God Bless
Rose
1 Thessalonians 4:14-15 (King James Version)
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
---------------------------------------------------
Two groups of people;
1.) no hope,
2.) hope.
To re-state and re-phrase what you said Rose, Group 2 is comprised of those who believe that Jesus died and rose again (vs. 14).
Looking at the 2nd Group then, there are two distinct groups described;
2.a.) them also which sleep in Jesus (vs. 14),
2.b.) we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (vs. 15).
Joel
Hi Joel
1 Thess. 4:15-17 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Have you ever thought about the phrase in verse 15 and 17 where it says "alive and remain", at first glance that wording seems a bit redundant, because if you're alive of course you remain, but with further thought it makes perfect sense.
A different way of looking at those verses is that Paul was telling them that when the Lord returned in power and glory those who were still alive would be one with the Lord....the same as those who had died in Jesus, but the difference is the ones who were alive would remain on earth while being forever with the Lord through having eternal life. So whether we are dead or are alive, we are forever with the Lord.
1 Thess. 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
God Bless
Rose
Richard Amiel McGough
07-19-2009, 11:51 AM
Richard-
I have a question about the following quote from one of your earlier posts
<<< 1 Thessalonians 5:9-11 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. 11 Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.
There it is - exactly the same construct with the same meaning as vs. 4:17 ... but now we see its true meaning is that all Christians are "together with" the Lord whether they are alive now or long dead after having died in faith. Our union with Christ and the body of saints that have died before us is a present fact now. We are not "waiting" to be "together with" the Lord. It is a present fact, whether we "wake or sleep" we now "live together with Him." >>
The word "live" in v. 10 is in the aorist tense, which seems to be confusing as this tense considers the action of the verb as a fact, but does not specify it's time frame. Blue Letter Bible says it is normally translated as past tense, but that would not make much sense here. I am not at all familiar with Greek grammar, but it seems that if Paul was talking about a present reality, he would have used a present tense verb. I know zao has several meanings and applications, but the basic concept seems to be one of vitality or action, whether spoken of spiritual beings (like God), humans, or even "living water". It is hard to reconcile this with Paul using the word in reference to those who were "sleeping". In 4:13 Paul makes it clear he does not want the Thessalonians to have sorrow as those who have no hope. To give them reason for hope Paul tells them "God will (future tense) bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus". This also agrees with "the hope of salvation" mentioned in 5:9 being a hope for the future. Why would someone hope for something that was a present reality?
Hi Silence,
That's a great question! I love digging into the grammar of the text.
The word translated as "should live" (ζήσωμεν, zesomen) is the subjunctive aorist active. The key point is the subjunctive, which indicates a potential outcome as opposed to a certain one. It is often used to express what a person should or could do. The exact verb form of zesomen is used to express the idea of "should live" or "may live" or "might live" or "shall live." It is helpful to review the five verses in which this exact form is found:
1 Thessalonians 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
Titus 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
James 4:15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.
1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
1 John 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.Now the key to your question is if Paul was talking about a future or a present reality. The simple fact is that the word he used can mean either, so we can not settle the question by looking just at that word. We see the present reality taught clearly in Titus 2:12 which admonishes that Christians "should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world." It seems that James 4:15 has the same meaning since he admonished that Christians should only say that we "shall live" (a current reality) if God so wills. And the same meaning seems to be clear in 1 Peter 2:24 because he admonished that Christians "should live unto righteousness" as a present reality.
I find it extremely significant that most of these verses link "shall live" directly to the death and resurrection of Christ, and that Christ himself declared that those who believe in him receive eternal life at the moment they believe:
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life , and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
The word translated as "hath" (echo) is the indicative present active - meaning a "done deal in the present moment."
Of course, this does not prove the correct interpretation of "shall live" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10. Here are the comments from F.F. Bruce's commentary on this verse:
Here the aorist ζήσωμεν implies that the life which the people of Christ receive through his surrender of his own life is the resurrection life to be entered into at his Parousia: like the “salvation” of v 9, the “life” of v 10 is eschatologically definitive. Even those who survive until the Parousia enter into a new order of life then (cf. 1 Cor 15:50–54).
The unfortunate fact is that Bruce failed to justify his assertions. He merely stated his opinion which appears to be based entirely on an assumed futurism. This is particularly odd since the quote is from his article in the Word Commentary which renowned for its exhaustive grammatical analysis of nearly every passage.
I think that the comparison of the five verses above makes a pretty strong case that "shall live" speaks of the "present reality" of our life in Christ. But perhaps I missed something. I look forward to digging into it more with you.
Many blessings,
Richard
Richard Amiel McGough
07-19-2009, 12:23 PM
Here are the comments of A. T. Robertson in his Word Pictures in the New Testatment (link (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/robertson_at/wp_1thes.vi.html)). He supports the idea of the present reality of our life in Christ:
5:10 For us [peri hēmōn]. Around us. So Westcott and Hort, but [huper] (over, in behalf of) as in many MSS. These prepositions often interchanged in N.T. MSS. Whether we wake or sleep [eite grēgorōmen eite katheudōmen]. Alternative condition of third class with present subjunctive, though [eante—eante] more usual conjunction (Robertson, Grammar, P. 1017). Used here of life and death, not as metaphor. That we should live together with him [hina hama sun autōi zēsōmen]. First aorist active subjunctive constative aorist covering all life (now and hereafter) together with [hama sun] as in 4:17) Jesus.
We also should recall the many verses that confirm the present reality of our life in Christ:
Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened (past tense) us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) 6 And hath raised (past tense) us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen (present tense) with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Colossians 3:1 If ye then be risen (present tense) with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.There are many other such verses. This teaching is fundamental to the New Testament.
Richard
TheForgiven
07-19-2009, 02:43 PM
Hi Joel
1 Thess. 4:15-17 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Have you ever thought about the phrase in verse 15 and 17 where it says "alive and remain", at first glance that wording seems a bit redundant, because if you're alive of course you remain, but with further thought it makes perfect sense.
A different way of looking at those verses is that Paul was telling them that when the Lord returned in power and glory those who were still alive would be one with the Lord....the same as those who had died in Jesus, but the difference is the ones who were alive would remain on earth while being forever with the Lord through having eternal life. So whether we are dead or are alive, we are forever with the Lord.
1 Thess. 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
God Bless
Rose
Hello sister Rose. Oh,a and welcome back brother Richard! :welcome: It's about time you crawled out of that comfort chair. Lazy boy getting the best of you, is it? :lol:
OK guys, you know me; I like to play devils advocate sometimes. So here it goes.
Sister Rose I understand that you refer to the passage by Paul as stating that those who "remain on earth" will be with the Lord, but on earth, and not in heaven until they die. I think the problem with that interpretation seems to contradict with the phrase "caught up" together to meet the Lord in the air; hence, the Rapture theory.
While it kind-of makes sense what you've proposed, it doesn't quite match the teaching of being caught up.
Here's what I propose. I believe that in 70AD, both those who were alive, and those who were asleep did in fact meet the Lord in the air. Josephus records the many angels seen flying high above the earth; the Jews thought this was a sign from God on their defense, while the Romans thought this was a Greek departure of the gods. Both sides assumed that they were receiving assistance from the gods.
This would also explain the lack of writings after 70AD. At the same time, I understand that my presentation would seem to conflict because not all Christians were "caught up"; some obviously remained behind.
What's the solution? I tend to believe that only those who took part in the initial expansion of the Kingdom (Apostles and their disciples) were the ones Christ return for. The rest who were established by the Apostles, primarily Gentiles Churches, remained behind to continue the work of the Apostles. But they too would begin to suffer Martyrdom at the hands of their countrymen.
I'm not stating these as fact, but my personal theory. Feel free to object sister (and anyone else).
Joe
Richard Amiel McGough
07-19-2009, 02:55 PM
Hello sister Rose. Oh,a and welcome back brother Richard! :welcome: It's about time you crawled out of that comfort chair. Lazy boy getting the best of you, is it? :lol:
Hey there Joe!
I wish it was the "lazy boy" but the truth is closer to dogpaddling through in an ocean of convoluted code ...but at least it pays well! :)
OK guys, you know me; I like to play devils advocate sometimes. So here it goes.
Sister Rose I understand that you refer to the passage by Paul as stating that those who "remain on earth" will be with the Lord, but on earth, and not in heaven until they die. I think the problem with that interpretation seems to contradict with the phrase "caught up" together to meet the Lord in the air; hence, the Rapture theory.
While it kind-of makes sense what you've proposed, it doesn't quite match the teaching of being caught up.
Here's what I propose. I believe that in 70AD, both those who were alive, and those who were asleep did in fact meet the Lord in the air. Josephus records the many angels seen flying high above the earth; the Jews thought this was a sign from God on their defense, while the Romans thought this was a Greek departure of the gods. Both sides assumed that they were receiving assistance from the gods.
This would also explain the lack of writings after 70AD. At the same time, I understand that my presentation would seem to conflict because not all Christians were "caught up"; some obviously remained behind.
What's the solution? I tend to believe that only those who took part in the initial expansion of the Kingdom (Apostles and their disciples) were the ones Christ return for. The rest who were established by the Apostles, primarily Gentiles Churches, remained behind to continue the work of the Apostles. But they too would begin to suffer Martyrdom at the hands of their countrymen.
I'm not stating these as fact, but my personal theory. Feel free to object sister (and anyone else).
Joe
I have entertained that possibility, and it does explain that strange gap in writings after 70AD. But ... I don't have any confidence that it is real since I don't have any direct evidence, and nobody actually recorded it. And it seems just a little "far out." But then, so does the Resurrection and a lot of other things testified in the Bible.
I think the most difficult thing about 1 Thess 4:17 is its isolation. It just doesn't fit well with the Big Picture of eschatology and has little or no mutually confirming verses. I think the most likely solution is that the language is figurative (coming in "clouds" being a very big clue). It will be interesting to see where this discussion leads.
Many blessings my friend! It is good to be "back in the saddle."
Richard
Hello sister Rose. Oh,a and welcome back brother Richard! :welcome: It's about time you crawled out of that comfort chair. Lazy boy getting the best of you, is it? :lol:
OK guys, you know me; I like to play devils advocate sometimes. So here it goes.
Sister Rose I understand that you refer to the passage by Paul as stating that those who "remain on earth" will be with the Lord, but on earth, and not in heaven until they die. I think the problem with that interpretation seems to contradict with the phrase "caught up" together to meet the Lord in the air; hence, the Rapture theory.
While it kind-of makes sense what you've proposed, it doesn't quite match the teaching of being caught up.
Here's what I propose. I believe that in 70AD, both those who were alive, and those who were asleep did in fact meet the Lord in the air. Josephus records the many angels seen flying high above the earth; the Jews thought this was a sign from God on their defense, while the Romans thought this was a Greek departure of the gods. Both sides assumed that they were receiving assistance from the gods.
This would also explain the lack of writings after 70AD. At the same time, I understand that my presentation would seem to conflict because not all Christians were "caught up"; some obviously remained behind.
What's the solution? I tend to believe that only those who took part in the initial expansion of the Kingdom (Apostles and their disciples) were the ones Christ return for. The rest who were established by the Apostles, primarily Gentiles Churches, remained behind to continue the work of the Apostles. But they too would begin to suffer Martyrdom at the hands of their countrymen.
I'm not stating these as fact, but my personal theory. Feel free to object sister (and anyone else).
Joe
Hi Joe
I have a personal theory too! :D
I think what's needed here is a whole new approach to looking at this verse. I'll walk through it step by step from a different perspective.
My paraphrase of Thess. 4:16-17...
When the shout was heard and Christ returned in the power and glory of ushering in the Kingdom of God, all those who had died believing in Jesus would go to be with the conquering King. Then all the remaining believers which were those who were alive at that time would be taken from their present state to a state of being together with the Lord in the clouds (the same cloud of God's presence that led the children of Israel in the wilderness).
I don't believe that people literally rose up into literal clouds, I think what Paul was saying was symbolic. All believers whether they had died before Christ came in power or were still living at His return would be caught up with Christ and be spiritually in the presence of the returning victorious Lord.
God Bless
Rose
TheForgiven
07-20-2009, 04:16 PM
Hi Joe
I have a personal theory too!
I think what's needed here is a whole new approach to looking at this verse. I'll walk through it step by step from a different perspective.
My paraphrase of Thess. 4:16-17...
When the shout was heard and Christ returned in the power and glory of ushering in the Kingdom of God, all those who had died believing in Jesus would go to be with the conquering King. Then all the remaining believers which were those who were alive at that time would be taken from their present state to a state of being together with the Lord in the clouds (the same cloud of God's presence that led the children of Israel in the wilderness).
I don't believe that people literally rose up into literal clouds, I think what Paul was saying was symbolic. All believers whether they had died before Christ came in power or were still living at His return would be caught up with Christ and be spiritually in the presence of the returning victorious Lord.
God Bless
Rose
That's an interesting concept, when we interpret Paul's letter with the spiritual approach. However, I would exercise a bit of caution in this, as we Preterist are already bombarded with accusations of over-symbolic interpretations; hence the name "Hyper-Preterist".
The text Paul presents does seem to teach of an actual "catching up" to meet the Lord in the air. For he states, "We which remain (who are alive on earth) shall not precede (ascend before) those who have fallen asleep in Christ. Thus, Paul seems to present a clear understanding that those who have fallen asleep will rise first, but each in their own order. Christ, then those who are His who have fallen asleep, and finally those who remained on earth at His coming.
Therefore, I take Paul's teaching to the Thessalonians literally, that Christ returned for those who had fallen asleep, and then those who remained were transformed into the eternal state, and met the Lord in the air. Where I have uncertainty is if this event was something visible for all to see, or if it were private. But if we consider the account of Josephus as genuine, I tend to lean towards an actual physical ascent into the sky; the dead first, and then those who remained. It is they who would make up the first thrones, and governments considering it was they who suffered the first during the initial calling of those who were to be delivered.
Thus, to this day, those of the first century (in my opinion) are serving different aspects of the Kingdom of Heaven. Some are judges as Paul says, "Do you not know that we shall judge angels?", some have jurisdiction over certain nations, perhaps even cities. And still some are serving as angels over particular branches of His Kingdom scattered throughout all the nations. Some may even bear the sword, to unleash wrath (per God's command) upon nations that become disobedient. At any rate, this type of calling only comes after one has proved themselves worthy enough to attain to this kind of authority. Whether this authority, or responsibility is still being partitioned to saints added to the number within each generation after them is beyond me. It's highly possible that some may have been put in charge of governing other worlds....speaking hypothetically of course.
At any rate, I'd say the literal interpretation of Paul's letter is warranted in this case.
What say you all?
Joe
That's an interesting concept, when we interpret Paul's letter with the spiritual approach. However, I would exercise a bit of caution in this, as we Preterist are already bombarded with accusations of over-symbolic interpretations; hence the name "Hyper-Preterist".
The text Paul presents does seem to teach of an actual "catching up" to meet the Lord in the air. For he states, "We which remain (who are alive on earth) shall not precede (ascend before) those who have fallen asleep in Christ. Thus, Paul seems to present a clear understanding that those who have fallen asleep will rise first, but each in their own order. Christ, then those who are His who have fallen asleep, and finally those who remained on earth at His coming.
Therefore, I take Paul's teaching to the Thessalonians literally, that Christ returned for those who had fallen asleep, and then those who remained were transformed into the eternal state, and met the Lord in the air. Where I have uncertainty is if this event was something visible for all to see, or if it were private. But if we consider the account of Josephus as genuine, I tend to lean towards an actual physical ascent into the sky; the dead first, and then those who remained. It is they who would make up the first thrones, and governments considering it was they who suffered the first during the initial calling of those who were to be delivered.
Thus, to this day, those of the first century (in my opinion) are serving different aspects of the Kingdom of Heaven. Some are judges as Paul says, "Do you not know that we shall judge angels?", some have jurisdiction over certain nations, perhaps even cities. And still some are serving as angels over particular branches of His Kingdom scattered throughout all the nations. Some may even bear the sword, to unleash wrath (per God's command) upon nations that become disobedient. At any rate, this type of calling only comes after one has proved themselves worthy enough to attain to this kind of authority. Whether this authority, or responsibility is still being partitioned to saints added to the number within each generation after them is beyond me. It's highly possible that some may have been put in charge of governing other worlds....speaking hypothetically of course.
At any rate, I'd say the literal interpretation of Paul's letter is warranted in this case.
What say you all?
Joe
Hi Joe,
Hope I'm not scaring you too much with my way out ideas...:eek:
I understand perfectly where you're coming from....the wording of those verses certainly does lend itself to the literal interpretation, but it just doesn't seem to match with the way God performed other great events. Take for instance when Jesus told His disciples He would send a comforter to teach them all things and dwell in them, and quoted from the book of Joel that God would pour out the Holy Spirit upon them, what do you think the disciples imagined that would be like. I'm sure it wasn't anything like what actually happened; flames of fire dancing over the heads of the disciples, a rushing mighty wind, and other languages being spoken making it a magnificent witness to all who were there by using natural means in a supernatural way.
Now take the literal rapture theory; if thousands of dead bodies rose up out of graves into the air, and then thousands of living people rose up into the air (a very unnatural thing) what would be the purpose of it if it was never documented by anyone (the most we have is vague writings from Josephus), so it wasn't a witness to anyone, unlike Pentecost.
Another reason that leads me to believe the Rapture isn't literal bodies rising up into the air is that the book of Revelation which is a prophecy of the end days nowhere mentions anything about a Rapture.
It seems to me the main point of what Paul was saying was to assure and comfort those Christians of the first century who were caught in a state of transition, unsure of what was coming down and very fearful of the state of their loved ones, so we really have no idea of the way they interpreted Paul's words. :confused:
God Bless
Rose
Silence
07-20-2009, 08:47 PM
I need to get to bed shortly, but I had a thought as I read through the posts since yesterday. By saying "we who are alive and remain" could Paul be referring to those who are still "left over'' or "surviving" (perileipomai) in their physical bodies? Paul told the Corinthians that he had been "caught up" to the third heaven and didn't even know if he was in his body at the time or not. It isn't clear if those who "remain" get their glorified bodies before they get caught up or if they get them when they meet the Lord in the air, but from what Paul said to the Corinthians it seems possible that they could still be in earthly bodies. The word leipo in perileipomai seems to indicate something lacking and this would fit if they are still in an earthly body. The transformation could come immediately upon meeting the Lord and seeing Him face to face. With my very limited knowledge of Greek, this verse and 1 Cor. 15:52 do not seem to make it clear when those who are alive at His coming are changed.
As far as our "living together" with Him, it seems from what Paul said in 4:14 that the basis for their hope and comfort was that Jesus died and rose again. "Even so" or "in the same manner" as Christ had died and risen again, their loved ones had died but would rise again and would be brought together with Him and re-united with them. This wasn't a present reality when Paul wrote it, he said it would happen at a particular point in time (the trumpet shall (future) sound and the dead in Christ shall rise...) That was the comfort that Paul held out to the Thessalonians. The part of the Thessalonians that Paul was speaking to was not to their inner spiritual man but to the outer man that needed comfort and hope. And it seems that many Christians would still have that "outer man" to deal with until they are "caught up".
I need to get to bed shortly, but I had a thought as I read through the posts since yesterday. By saying "we who are alive and remain" could Paul be referring to those who are still "left over'' or "surviving" (perileipomai) in their physical bodies? Paul told the Corinthians that he had been "caught up" to the third heaven and didn't even know if he was in his body at the time or not. It isn't clear if those who "remain" get their glorified bodies before they get caught up or if they get them when they meet the Lord in the air, but from what Paul said to the Corinthians it seems possible that they could still be in earthly bodies. The word leipo in perileipomai seems to indicate something lacking and this would fit if they are still in an earthly body. The transformation could come immediately upon meeting the Lord and seeing Him face to face. With my very limited knowledge of Greek, this verse and 1 Cor. 15:52 do not seem to make it clear when those who are alive at His coming are changed.
As far as our "living together" with Him, it seems from what Paul said in 4:14 that the basis for their hope and comfort was that Jesus died and rose again. "Even so" or "in the same manner" as Christ had died and risen again, their loved ones had died but would rise again and would be brought together with Him and re-united with them. This wasn't a present reality when Paul wrote it, he said it would happen at a particular point in time (the trumpet shall (future) sound and the dead in Christ shall rise...) That was the comfort that Paul held out to the Thessalonians. The part of the Thessalonians that Paul was speaking to was not to their inner spiritual man but to the outer man that needed comfort and hope. And it seems that many Christians would still have that "outer man" to deal with until they are "caught up".
Hi Silence,
Very good points!
First off we know that what Paul is speaking of in 1 Cor. 15:51-52 and 1 Thess. are one and the same.
When Paul says that those who are alive at Christ's coming will be changed and that this mortal must put on immortality and in so doing death will be swallowed up in victory, it seems the only thing that he can be speaking of is that the eternal life that Christ won for us at the cross was fully realized at the point of His return, and at that point their spiritual state would be changed to that of having eternal life while they were still in their mortal bodies.
Even though eternal life was promised to all who believed in Jesus after the cross all things were not complete until Christ came in victory, ushering in the Kingdom of God, having put the last enemy under His feet....which was death. Now this mortal body that is alive on this earth can put on immortality through Christ!
God Bless
Rose
There are certain words that stand out in Paul's letter (I) to the Thessalonians;
comfort and hope.
They were a model church in displaying love, love for each other and extended out to others. They needed no censure in that regard.
Paul was sending Timothy to them to build their faith and give them comfort as they were subject to strong opposition in the form of persecution from the Jews as well as from their fellow countrymen.
Comfort is a valuable emotional force when Christians are going through hard times. Paul taught in Romans 5 that tribulations produce positive effects.....hope emerges.......and love is shed abroad in the heart.
Faith has a basis on the past.......what God has accomplished in Christ.
Hope is future oriented. When there is a lack of knowledge concerning His workings that lie ahead, or, confusion regarding His purposes towards us, we tend to lose hope in the midst of trails. Hopelessness is a very dismal place to find ourselves.
They were also very concerned about their loved ones who had died and were no longer remaining with them. Paul was assuring them that concerning the future of their loved ones in that they would all be reunited when Christ returned. What Paul taught in Romans 8 concerns the hope that lies before us all. In fact, the creation is awaiting the manifestation of an event which Paul called the "huiosthesia". It is "son-placing".
Our physical bodies would be changed when the mortal would put on immortality (I Cor 15). He had explained in his Phillipian's letter that our bodies would be conformed to be like the Lord's body.
Here, in I Thessalonians, he explains that those who had formerly been put into the sleep of death would be awakened, and raised, in the likeness of His resurrection, and would rise into the air to be joined by those who remained alive. This joins the essential element of our faith, the Lord's resurrection, with the essential element of our hope, the conformity of our physical bodies to His........these words are to comfort all believers who are subject to trail, when faith is challenged and the future appears grim.
These three; faith, hope and love....are to characterize our lives, and the greatest of these is love (I Cor. 13).
We thank Him for these indescribable gifts, and thank Him for you all, our fellow laborers in the gospel.
Joel
There are certain words that stand out in Paul's letter (I) to the Thessalonians;
comfort and hope.
They were a model church in displaying love, love for each other and extended out to others. They needed no censure in that regard.
Paul was sending Timothy to them to build their faith and give them comfort as they were subject to strong opposition in the form of persecution from the Jews as well as from their fellow countrymen.
Comfort is a valuable emotional force when Christians are going through hard times. Paul taught in Romans 5 that tribulations produce positive effects.....hope emerges.......and love is shed abroad in the heart.
Faith has a basis on the past.......what God has accomplished in Christ.
Hope is future oriented. When there is a lack of knowledge concerning His workings that lie ahead, or, confusion regarding His purposes towards us, we tend to lose hope in the midst of trails. Hopelessness is a very dismal place to find ourselves.
They were also very concerned about their loved ones who had died and were no longer remaining with them. Paul was assuring them that concerning the future of their loved ones in that they would all be reunited when Christ returned. What Paul taught in Romans 8 concerns the hope that lies before us all. In fact, the creation is awaiting the manifestation of an event which Paul called the "huiosthesia". It is "son-placing".
Our physical bodies would be changed when the mortal would put on immortality (I Cor 15). He had explained in his Phillipian's letter that our bodies would be conformed to be like the Lord's body.
Here, in I Thessalonians, he explains that those who had formerly been put into the sleep of death would be awakened, and raised, in the likeness of His resurrection, and would rise into the air to be joined by those who remained alive. This joins the essential element of our faith, the Lord's resurrection, with the essential element of our hope, the conformity of our physical bodies to His........these words are to comfort all believers who are subject to trail, when faith is challenged and the future appears grim.
These three; faith, hope and love....are to characterize our lives, and the greatest of these is love (I Cor. 13).
We thank Him for these indescribable gifts, and thank Him for you all, our fellow laborers in the gospel.
Joel
Amen to that Joel!
Rose
1 Cor. 15:51-54 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on [enduo] incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on [enduo] incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on [enduo] immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. This very difficult to understand passage of 1 Cor. 15 is clarified greatly when a study is done of the word 'put on' [enduo]. The below verses give great insight into why Paul used this word to describe the change that was to take place in believers when Christ returned in victory.
2 Cor. 5:1-4 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed [enduo] upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
Mark 15: 20 And when they had mocked him, they took off the purple from him, and put his own clothes on him, and led him out to crucify him.
Luke 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued [enduo] with power from on high.
Rom. 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on[enduo] the armour of light….14) But put ye on [enduo] the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
Gal. 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on [enduo] Christ.
Eph. 4:24 And that ye put on [enduo] the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Eph. 6:11 Put on [enduo] the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Col. 3:10 And have put on [enduo] the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:….12) Put on [enduo] therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
1 Thess. 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on [enduo] the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. As we see the word enduo is used not only for the putting on of clothing (garmets), but is also used in foundational verses to describe our putting on 'the new man', and putting on 'Christ', it is also used to describe how the Holy Spirit is given to us and we put it on while still alive in our mortal bodies. So, now from this great cloud of witnesses it becomes much clearer as to what Paul is saying in 1 Cor. 15.
Walking through it we know that what Paul is saying to the Corinthians in 1 Cor. 15 is the same thing that he is saying to the Thessalonians in 1 Thess. 4, and that is what is going to happen to those who are alive at Christ’s return. If the word enduo is used to denote a putting on of something then it appears what Paul is saying is that when Christ returns with the victory trump everyone will be changed those who have died in Him will be raised incorruptible to be with Him, and those who are alive will put on a "garment of immortality" and be with Him, that is to say 'eternal life', clothed with our house which is from heaven while still residing the this fleshly body. When that occurs Paul says the saying which is written comes true….Death is swallowed up in victory, and mortality is swallowed up in life.
God Bless
Rose
Walking through it we know that what Paul is saying to the Corinthians in 1 Cor. 15 is the same thing that he is saying to the Thessalonians in 1 Thess. 4, and that is what is going to happen to those who are alive at Christ’s return
Amen, Rose
Joel
Here is a list of common points that most Christians agree on concerning 1 Cor. 15, thus we can assume that what applies to 1 Cor. 15 also applies to 1 Thess. 4.
1.) The coming of Christ is a triumphant event, heralding Christ's coming in power with victory over death, and ushering in the Kingdom of God.
2.) Those verses apply to all Christians before the coming of Christ.
3.) Those who are dead in Christ are raised first, incorruptible to be with Christ.
4.) Those who are alive (mortal) at Christ's coming put on [enduo] "immortality" guaranteeing eternal life with Christ.
The main disagreement I see among Christians seems to mostly focus on the time frame of when this coming of Christ has, or will happen, and the manner in which it will occur. Will it be a future event in which bodies will visibly rise up into the air, or is it as I believe a past event which occurred during the transition period of the 1st century, in which those who were dead in Christ were spiritually raised incorruptible (not visible to the eye) to be forever with the Lord, and those who were alive (in their mortal bodies) at His coming were clothed [enduo] with immortality (that is putting on eternal life) while still residing in their earthly bodies.....hence the saying "those who are alive and remain at the coming of Christ will be caught up together, to be with Him forever".
Richard brought my attention to the below verse in Rev. pointing out the mighty angel was "clothed in a cloud", directly showing the relationship between the usage of the word cloud and the power of God.
Rev. 10:1 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:
God Bless
Rose
TheForgiven
07-22-2009, 07:58 PM
Rev. 10:1 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:
God Bless
Rose
Very good point. So this could prove that Paul wasn't referring to Christians being raised to meet Christ in literal clouds, but in heaven.
Although I thought Paul stated that they would meet Christ in the air?
I'll have to study that portion again.
At any rate, I don't believe He came in the first century to gather every single sole left alive, or who had died. I believe He came for the first producers of the Kingdom, primarily between 30AD - 70 AD, as well as those who suffered Martyrdom. Everyone else after that would be raised immediately after death...assuming we hold to the Hyper-Preterist position.
The Partial Preterist believes that the first resurrection took place in 70AD, and that a final resurrection will take place when He comes physically.
More to come.
Joe
Very good point. So this could prove that Paul wasn't referring to Christians being raised to meet Christ in literal clouds, but in heaven.
Although I thought Paul stated that they would meet Christ in the air?
I'll have to study that portion again.
Hi Joe,
Thanks for your valuable input, and I hope there is more to come. :thumb:
What I was trying to show by comparing the angel in Rev. being clothed in a cloud with 1 Thess. 4: is that clouds are symbolic of God's presence, and power, and the angel was wearing the cloud like a garment. So when 1 Thess. speaks of people being caught up into the clouds, it very well could mean putting on the victory of eternal life that Christ won like a garment.
At any rate, I don't believe He came in the first century to gather every single sole left alive, or who had died. I believe He came for the first producers of the Kingdom, primarily between 30AD - 70 AD, as well as those who suffered Martyrdom. Everyone else after that would be raised immediately after death...assuming we hold to the Hyper-Preterist position.
The Partial Preterist believes that the first resurrection took place in 70AD, and that a final resurrection will take place when He comes physically.
More to come.
Joe
The problem I have with a selective Rapture is that it's not what the text says, and to be true to Scripture we can't pick and choose a scenario to fit our own theories.
Keep the posts coming Joe. :D
God Bless
Rose
Romans 8:19-25 (King James Version)
19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
-----------------------------------------------------
As we discuss these matters, please also consider this section of Paul's letter to the Romans.
He is stating that the creation is anxiously and persistently awaiting an event that has not yet occurred..........the manifestation of the sons of God (vs. 19).
Those who have the "first-fruits of the Spirit" are to have the same kind of anticipation. The event is further defined as the "adoption.....the redemption of our body" (vs. 23).
This anticipation is a facet of the salvation He has for us.......wherein we are "saved by hope" (vs. 24).
As we are currently living in bodies of the earth, subject to both sin and death, Paul exhorts us to look forward to the time when the anticipated change will affect our bodies (soma).
This should be our hope (expectation).
Joel
Romans 8:19-25 (King James Version)
19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
-----------------------------------------------------
As we discuss these matters, please also consider this section of Paul's letter to the Romans.
He is stating that the creation is anxiously and persistently awaiting an event that has not yet occurred..........the manifestation of the sons of God (vs. 19).
Those who have the "first-fruits of the Spirit" are to have the same kind of anticipation. The event is further defined as the "adoption.....the redemption of our body" (vs. 23).
This anticipation is a facet of the salvation He has for us.......wherein we are "saved by hope" (vs. 24).
As we are currently living in bodies of the earth, subject to both sin and death, Paul exhorts us to look forward to the time when the anticipated change will affect our bodies (soma).
This should be our hope (expectation).
Joel
Hi Joel
I'm so glad you brought up Rom. 8, Richard and I were just speaking of those verses in connection with 2 Cor. 5 where Paul speaks of their groaning , and earnest desire to be clothed [enduo] with their house from heaven.
2 Cor. 5:2-3 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
I think that is the very anticipation that Paul is speaking of in Rom. 8 as the adoption, and redemption of the body. At the time of Paul's writing his letter this manifestation of the sons of Gods had not yet occurred, it was to take place at the victorious coming of Christ when He fully ushered in the Kingdom of God in power and glory. This yet to happen event at that time was what Paul was speaking of to the Corinthians, and Thessalonians as the change that was to occur in the twinkling of an eye, when those who were dead in Christ would rise incorruptible to be with Him forever, and those who were alive in their earthly bodies would put on [enduo] immortality (eternal life or redemption of the body) while yet living on earth.
This hope has been realized for us, the Kingdom of God was fully ushered in by Christ, the Old Covenant of the Law that the Jews were under is completely vanished away (that happened with the destruction of the Temple). We now exhibit the full manifestation of the sons of God, which is the hope of salvation, that being eternal life in Christ while we yet live on this earth.
God Bless
Rose
Hi Joel
I'm so glad you brought up Rom. 8, Richard and I were just speaking of those verses in connection with 2 Cor. 5 where Paul speaks of their groaning , and earnest desire to be clothed [enduo] with their house from heaven.
2 Cor. 5:2-3 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
I think that is the very anticipation that Paul is speaking of in Rom. 8 as the adoption, and redemption of the body. At the time of Paul's writing his letter this manifestation of the sons of Gods had not yet occurred, it was to take place at the victorious coming of Christ when He fully ushered in the Kingdom of God in power and glory. This yet to happen event at that time was what Paul was speaking of to the Corinthians, and Thessalonians as the change that was to occur in the twinkling of an eye, when those who were dead in Christ would rise incorruptible to be with Him forever, and those who were alive in their earthly bodies would put on [enduo] immortality (eternal life or redemption of the body) while yet living on earth.
This hope has been realized for us, the Kingdom of God was fully ushered in by Christ, the Old Covenant of the Law that the Jews were under is completely vanished away (that happened with the destruction of the Temple). We now exhibit the full manifestation of the sons of God, which is the hope of salvation, that being eternal life in Christ while we yet live on this earth.
God Bless
Rose
Where we continue to view this issue differently (which we have discussed before in other threads) is that it remains my belief that the redemption of our bodies is literal and yet to occur. I agree that there has been a spiritual fulfillment, even though I don't view 70 A.D. from the same vantage point as you, Richard, Joe and others.
May we continue to pray in agreement that He will bring us into a unity of faith. In the interim, I continue to thank Him for our fellowship.
Joel
Where we continue to view this issue differently (which we have discussed before in other threads) is that it remains my belief that the redemption of our bodies is literal and yet to occur. I agree that there has been a spiritual fulfillment, even though I don't view 70 A.D. from the same vantage point as you, Richard, Joe and others.
May we continue to pray in agreement that He will bring us into a unity of faith. In the interim, I continue to thank Him for our fellowship.
Joel
God Bless you Joel for your continued fellowship here on the Forum. I have learned an incredible amount through our discussions.
I think I have come up with the perfect analogy to explain why the Old system of the Law had to be completely destroyed before the New system of Grace could come in, and why it took a transition period of 40 years.
Anybody in our modern generation who has a computer will understand this analogy perfectly. I’ll begin by phrasing it in a question. What do you do if the operating system on your computer gets corrupted by a virus? Of course we all know the answer to that; first we have to completely wipe out the corrupted operating system before we can install a new one otherwise if there is any part of the old that remains it will corrupt the new system.
The Gospels are full of parables that Jesus spoke of using this same idea. The most well know example is that of the wineskins, if new wine is put into an old wineskin the old cannot contain the new.
This very thing is what was happening in the 1st century with the transitioning from the old system to the new one. Jesus won the victory over sin at the cross, and the veil of separation was torn in two allowing Jew and Gentile alike to now partake of God’ saving grace, but what was going on in the 40 year time period of transition before the old system of the Law was completely destroyed was a mingling together of the Temple cultus system with all of its corruption, with the new Gospel of salvation for all.
Remembering back to what God did to the Israelites after the Exodus parallels what was going on in the 1st century. God would not allow the Jews who were not born in the wilderness (except for Joshua, and Caleb) to enter into the promise land because of their corruption, but allowed them to exist together for a transition period of 40 years. Only those who were born during the 40 years of wandering were allowed to enter in, that example was a type of what God did in the 1st century. The old and the new existed together for a period of 40 years so the new could get established, but never could both have continued on together, because as was shown in the short time of transition as long as the old was in existence it continually tugged at the new trying to corrupt it.
This is the reason the language Paul uses to explain the 'already not yet' idea of Jesus’ work of salvation sometimes becomes ambiguous. Everything was finished at the cross, but could not be delivered in its fullness until the old was done away with, but a period of the tares growing together with the wheat was needed in order to fully establish the new. The wheat was always wheat even from the very beginning it just wasn’t fully ripe yet, and it was at the time of harvesting that the tares were cut down and burned and the mature wheat harvested.
The New Jerusalem could not be manifested until the Old Jerusalem was destroyed, otherwise the leaven of sin in the Old would have infected the New lump. That is why we see in Revelation only after the Harlot who is symbolic of the Old Covenant system is destroyed is the New Jerusalem shown coming down from heaven. The marriage of the Lamb to His bride the Church takes place after God's divorced wife who played the Harlot is destroyed.
Many blessings to all
Rose
TheForgiven
07-23-2009, 05:46 PM
Excellent post sister Rose! I believe you nailed it right on the money. :thumb:
God was allowing both tares and the wheat to grow together, until the time of harvesting was ready.
Great post!
Joe
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