Roaring of the sea

[CWH]

Hi,

Just trying to understand why nations will be anguish and perplex at the roaring and tossing of the sea in Luke 21 : 25 :-

25"There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken.

I read it as people will be fearful and distress over (perceived or real) tsunamis and storm surges. What say you all? Due to global warming and rising sea level, I believe that hurricanes, tsunamis, storm surges will occur more often.

There are some links to the meaning of the roaring of the sea; I don't think the meaning is symbolic:
1. Psalm 65:7
who stilled the roaring of the seas, the roaring of their waves, and the turmoil of the nations.
Psalm 65:6-8 (in Context) Psalm 65 (Whole Chapter)
2. Isaiah 5:30
In that day they will roar over it like the roaring of the sea. And if one looks at the land, he will see darkness and distress; even the light will be darkened by the clouds.
Isaiah 5:29-30 (in Context) Isaiah 5 (Whole Chapter)
3. Jeremiah 51:42
The sea will rise over Babylon; its roaring waves will cover her.
Jeremiah 51:41-43 (in Context) Jeremiah 51 (Whole Chapter)
4 Psalm 93:3
Sea storms are up, God, Sea storms wild and roaring, Sea storms with thunderous breakers. Stronger than wild sea storms, Mightier than sea-storm breakers, Mighty God rules from High Heaven.
Psalm 93:2-4 (in Context) Psalm 93 (Whole Chapter)

Picture of fearful people escaping in mass from a hurricane in 2005:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/RitaHoustonEvacuation.jpg

Many Blessings.

[CWH]

The Bible in Luke 21 said it right, "25On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea." In news, we heard and saw in the recent earthquake and tsunami in Chile... Japan evacuated over 300,000, evacuations also in Hawaii, Tonga, New Zealand, Australia, Philippines etc. I believe there are more to come as the next verse says: "26Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken".

"The tossing and roaring of the sea" refers not only to tsunamis but also floods, storms, hurricanes from the sea, storm surges which we are seeing more frequently and the rates have increase, What are all these signs suggesting?

http://www.todayonline.com/World/EDC100301-0000074/Waves-of-fear-dissipate

Many Blessings

[Screaming Eagle]

Cheow,
Thanks for your observations. What if the 'seas' are the seas of nations in tumult? 'Heathen' is the word 'goy' which generally refers to nations of the world.

Ps 2:1 ¶ Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? {rage: or, tumultuously assemble} {imagine: Heb. meditate}

[CWH]

Cheow,
Thanks for your observations. What if the 'seas' are the seas of nations in tumult? 'Heathen' is the word 'goy' which generally refers to nations of the world.

Ps 2:1 ¶ Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? {rage: or, tumultuously assemble} {imagine: Heb. meditate}

Thanks Screaming Eagle. In fact, I have expected a preterist to ask this question and my answer is at hand:

If the seas are nations or peoples, then Luke 21: 25 interpretation doesn't sounds right:

"On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea", will become "On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of peoples and nations".
No wonder, perhaps, they are so quiet :winking0071: No offense :yo:

Many Blessings.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Thanks Screaming Eagle. In fact, I have expected a preterist to ask this question and my answer is at hand:

If the seas are nations or peoples, then Luke 21: 25 interpretation doesn't sounds right:

"On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea", will become "On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of peoples and nations".
No wonder, perhaps, they are so quiet :winking0071: No offense :yo:

Many Blessings.
Hi Cheow,

Don't worry, no offense taken!

I am guessing that you are interpreting the verse this way:

"On the entire globe of planet earth, nations from Africa to Japan, from China to Mexico, will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of peoples and nations".

If this is what you think it means, then your interpretation has absolutely nothing to do with what the Bible is actually saying. I was "quiet" because your interpretation is absurd and anyone reading the text should already know this from its context - it was talking about the destruction of the first century Temple in Jerusalem! Obviously, it has nothing to do with the all the nations scattered about the entire globe in the twenty-first century!

No offense!

Richard

[CWH]

Thanks RAM,

If we take the earth to mean the Roman world or Israel in the first century, then Luke 22:25 sounds funnier:

"On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea", will become "On the Roman world or Israel, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of peoples and nations".

What I am saying is that some preterist symbolic interpretations if applied may not make sense such as clouds to mean wars or disasters, locusts to mean the armies. We don't expect God to ride on wars or disasters or armies to eat grass and vegetations.

Many Blessings.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Thanks RAM,

If we take the earth to mean the Roman world or Israel in the first century, then Luke 22:25 sounds funnier:

"On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea", will become "On the Roman world or Israel, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of peoples and nations".

What I am saying is that some preterist symbolic interpretations if applied may not make sense such as clouds to mean wars or disasters, locusts to mean the armies. We don't expect God to ride on wars or disasters or armies to eat grass and vegetations.

Many Blessings.
There is nothing "funny" about that interpretation at all. The meaning of "ge" in that passage is perfectly clear. It is speaking all the nations that comprised the first century world centered on Israel and the Roman Empire. This is the correct understanding of what the "earth" means in this context. We have already proven the correct interpretation many times. Neither you nor anyone else has ever shown this understanding to be incorrect. Why do you persist in this error?

And why do you persist in a false understanding of "preterist symbolic interpretations?" If you do not "expect God to ride on wars" then you have no comprehension of the Word of God:
Isaiah 19:1 The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. 2 And I will set the Egyptians against the Egyptians: and they shall fight every one against his brother, and every one against his neighbour; city against city, and kingdom against kingdom.
Here the symbol of the Lord "riding upon a swift cloud" is explain in context as a symbol of Him causing war in Egypt - "I (God) will set the Egyptians against the Egyptians - and kingdom against kingdom."

Using your false understanding, we would comment how "funny" it sounds that God is talking about a "kingdom against kingdom" within the single "kingdom" of Egypt.

Likewise, God uses the image of a flood when He brings judgment on nations in Jeremiah 46. And he likens the invading armies to locusts in Joel.

Your failure to properly understand Scripture appears to be willful. It appears that you have chosen to misinterpret the Bible to fit your personal desire for a futurist understanding. I do not get the impression that you are seeking the truth of what the Bible really teaches because you continue to ignore the unrefuted facts that have been presented over and over again. If you want to believe in futurism, that's fine - unless the only way to do it is to deny what the Bible is actually teaching.

No offense! I'm just telling you how I see it.

Richard

[Screaming Eagle]

RAM,
It's going back to the 'both/and' perception that I mentioned before.

The Lord showed prophetic vision (the near/far nature of much prophecy) as if I were driving west across Texas to Colorado. From the flat plains of Texas I'd be ablet to 'see' the mountains in Colorado from a great distance. As I got closer, I'd be able to see not only the mountains but more detail of the mountains and some of what was in the foreground. As I got closer still, I'd be able to see more of the foreground as well as valleys between the mountains and yet more of the 'point' (telos?) of the mountain that I saw much further back. When I was on the mountain, I'd be able to 'experience' every single winding path and road from the high place as well as look back on the valleys, turns of the mountain, every 'small' hill along the way as wel as the initial flat plain from where I saw the mountain originally. The mountain was 'near' and yet 'far away' with much to be seen along the way.

RAM wrote:
"On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of peoples and nations".

It could very well be that this is much more accurate than many want to believe.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

RAM,
It's going back to the 'both/and' perception that I mentioned before.

The Lord showed prophetic vision (the near/far nature of much prophecy) as if I were driving west across Texas to Colorado. From the flat plains of Texas I'd be ablet to 'see' the mountains in Colorado from a great distance. As I got closer, I'd be able to see not only the mountains but more detail of the mountains and some of what was in the foreground. As I got closer still, I'd be able to see more of the foreground as well as valleys between the mountains and yet more of the 'point' (telos?) of the mountain that I saw much further back. When I was on the mountain, I'd be able to 'experience' every single winding path and road from the high place as well as look back on the valleys, turns of the mountain, every 'small' hill along the way as wel as the initial flat plain from where I saw the mountain originally. The mountain was 'near' and yet 'far away' with much to be seen along the way.

Hey there my friend, :yo:

I understand that explanation of "near/far" - it's been around for many years. But what right do we have to invent a "near/far" interpretation if the Scripture does not suggest anything like that? Folks can make up whatever they want. They've been doing it for 2000 years! Is there any way to know if your interpretation is correct? Of course not! It's pure speculation. It is, therefore, just another opinion of a man, and as such it hinders, rather than helps, our understanding of Holy Scripture.

The Bible is not a personal plaything that we can use to prop up whatever happens to enter our minds. It is the Word of God and must be respected as such.



RAM wrote:
"On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of peoples and nations".

It could very well be that this is much more accurate than many want to believe.
I believe it is perfectly accurate as written. The inaccuracy enters only when a person ignorantly interprets the word "earth" as meaning "the globe of planet earth." We have established time and again that the words for "earth" in the Bible and other first century middle eastern documents almost never means "the globe of planet earth."

Anyone with this knowledge already understands that the verse is absolutely accurate. It does not become "more accurate" by misinterpreting the word "earth."

All the very best!

Richard

[CWH]

Look how absurd if we use clouds to mean disasters or armies of destruction:

Although I don't totally exclude the symbolic meaning of cloud in the Bible but it seems more literal than symbolic to me. It does not make sense for cloud to mean disaster or armies of destruction in several of the verses (try replacing the word "cloud" with "disaster" or "armies of destruction" and you will know what I mean) e.g.

(Psalm 104:3) He lays the beams of his chambers on the waters; he makes the clouds (disasters? armies of destruction?) his chariot; he rides on the wings of the wind…

(Isaiah 19:1) An oracle concerning Egypt. Behold, the Lord is riding on a swift cloud(disaster? armies of destruction?) and comes to Egypt; and the idols of Egypt will tremble at his presence, and the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.

1 Thessalonians 4:17) Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds (disasters? armies of destruction?) to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

Matthew 24:30) "Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds(disasters? armies of destruction) of heaven with power and great glory.

I don't see it confusing to use the literal term of cloud i.e water vapor or gas in interpreting all the verses.

Many Blessings

[Screaming Eagle]

Think about the 'cloud' of witnesses. The word used when Jacob 'wrestled' indicates (only use in the Bible) that he was vaporized or 'bedusted'.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Think about the 'cloud' of witnesses. The word used when Jacob 'wrestled' indicates (only use in the Bible) that he was vaporized or 'bedusted'.
A great cloud of witnesses - a most excellent example!

Thanks!

:signthankspin:

[Rose]

Look how absurd if we use clouds to mean disasters or armies of destruction:

Although I don't totally exclude the symbolic meaning of cloud in the Bible but it seems more literal than symbolic to me. It does not make sense for cloud to mean disaster or armies of destruction in several of the verses (try replacing the word "cloud" with "disaster" or "armies of destruction" and you will know what I mean) e.g.

(Psalm 104:3) He lays the beams of his chambers on the waters; he makes the clouds (disasters? armies of destruction?) his chariot; he rides on the wings of the wind…

(Isaiah 19:1) An oracle concerning Egypt. Behold, the Lord is riding on a swift cloud(disaster? armies of destruction?) and comes to Egypt; and the idols of Egypt will tremble at his presence, and the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.

1 Thessalonians 4:17) Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds (disasters? armies of destruction?) to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

Matthew 24:30) "Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds(disasters? armies of destruction) of heaven with power and great glory.

I don't see it confusing to use the literal term of cloud i.e water vapor or gas in interpreting all the verses.

Many Blessings

Hi Cheow,

Instead of equating clouds with disasters....which I really don't see in Scripture, I would interpret their use as that of "covering" the power and glory of God; that which allows man to stand in God's presence. As can be seen in the verses below (a very small sample) clouds are used as a shield protecting those in God's presence from dying.
.
Exo.16:10 And it came to pass, as Aaron spake unto the whole congregation of the children of Israel, that they looked toward the wilderness, and, behold, the glory of the LORD appeared in the cloud.

Exo. 19:9 And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD.

Exo.33:9 And it came to pass, as Moses entered into the tabernacle, the cloudy pillar descended, and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the LORD talked with Moses.

Exo.40:35 And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation, because the cloud abode thereon, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.

Lev.16:2 And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak unto Aaron thy brother, that he come not at all times into the holy place within the vail before the mercy seat, which is upon the ark; that he die not: for I will appear in the cloud upon the mercy seat.

Lev.16:13 And he shall put the incense upon the fire before the LORD, that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat that is upon the testimony, that he die not:

Job 22:13-14 And thou sayest, How doth God know? can he judge through the dark cloud? Thick clouds are a covering to him, that he seeth not; and he walketh in the circuit of heaven.

Psa.68:44 Ascribe ye strength unto God: his excellency is over Israel, and his strength is in the clouds.

Psa.104:3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:

Isa.19:1 The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.


Rose
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